IndigoAjah

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Thing is, there is a floor to the cognitive realm TLR could just increase his mass to sink to the bottom faster, and then run across the floor with speed till he reached "land". Shallan and co have shown that to be possible. 

And he can tap Zinc now to work that out very quickly.

Just now, Ookla The Frustrated said:

I once saw someone suggest sending TRL to the cognitive and leaving him to drown.

I assume he has stored air (and health too!) so it would take a long time!!!

7 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I feel the fact he can move faster than they react would beat anything the heralds can do. Super speed is considered overpowered for a reason.

Nah, only if you really limit what you mean by anything. 

7 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I feel the fact he can move faster than they react would beat anything the heralds can do. Super speed is considered overpowered for a reason.

Nah, only if you really limit what you mean by anything. 

Fullborn like TLR shouldn't be able to lose to anything less than a God if they fight properly. Of course, those two things were both TLR's problem...

However, Heralds are Slivers too. We have no idea what they are capable of. Based on what we know, TLR would cruise it but it's very possible Heralds are even more powerful than suspected. Ishar might be able to Connect him in some way that drains all his Metalminds, for example, and then he would instadie. 

Also, the amount of strength stored over 1000 years when you can Compound may as well be infinite by all practical measures. 

22 minutes ago, smokeesid said:

How do we know that axindweth is a feruchemist?

We don't know but she has Metalminds, sounds Terrisman, has a Terrisman name,and it seems she's used Identity to somehow get Investiture across the worlds despite the Oathpact

21 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Yeah, I’ve seen that. I don’t think it confirms it though. I think it’s definitely possible that Brandon is intentionally misleading us there. Look at the phrasing of the question. 

Brandon could technically just be answering: “Yes, Hoid is referring to Cultivation when he said that.”

It’s also possible that Hoid wasn’t actually referring to Cultivation when he mentions the oldest person around, so he could be talking about the Dragon, but not about Cultivation. 

I don't think Brandon does that kind of trickery. Sly answers that allude to something true without stating it outright, yes. Intentional misleading, no 

Personally I really dislike the idea of the Shards having perfect exact opposites. But I accept it's a possibility

If it's true then we get:

Ruin - Preservation

Autonomy - Dominion

Whimsy - Ambition

Mercy - Honor (I really think these two do clash - rules Vs empathy)

Devotion - Odium

Valor - Survival Shard IMO  (Prudence) 

Invention - another unknown shard, one I think will be Honesty or something similar 

Cultivation - Endowment (gifts Vs growth, nurture vs nature

But I don't think they stack up perfectly, and I'd rather they didn't. 

The idea that there are groups is another one with legs, though I don't think the groups are linked to Dawnshards, as the Allomatic Metals exist in groups, but I'm the similarities might be less "these Shards are all similar intents) and more "the way of thinking about their intents is a similar angle"

So Outcome grouping might be Ruin, Preservation, Autonomy, Dominion. All act towards a specific, if broad, outcome. (Consequentialism)

Drive might be Odium, Devotion, Whimsy, Ambition. All driven by an underlying reason behind every action, whether it's emotional, instinctive, or a desire. Could be called Instinct too. (Existentialism of sorts)

Journey - Honor, Mercy, Cultivation, Endowment. All about the way you achieve things. (Deontological)

Ideals/Virtue - Valor, Prudence, Invention, Honesty. All about the type of person you try to be. (Virtue/value ethics)

If my random musings are right, then some of Harmony's problems make more sense: he has to act towards outcome and balancing opposite outcomes is impossible. 

I am 90% sure that any Dalinar is Honor hints are red herrings and 100% sure, based on what we know about Dawnshards, that Kaladin isn't a Dawnshard, nor does he have one.

17 minutes ago, Dancer said:

After watching the RoW spoiler live stream, Brandon has indicated that Kaladins long term relationship with his partner Suffering will be coming to an end. I am very disappointed In this new development because to me, he and Suffering make a perfect couple. What infuriates me more is that Brandon has indicated that he will be starting up a relationship with happiness. If you are like me and feel strongly about this new development then comment down below what you think about this shift in direction. 

I dunno, he says that but Kalfering had always been on again, off again. I'll believe it's over when one of them dies

I'm pretty sure it would Flare Stormlight. Honorblade style, maybe, where their Blades use Stormlight far faster, but boost the power of what is happening.

As for the Fabrial, dunno. It would probably flare investiture, so make the Spren act fast and powerfully, in a heat-fabrial for example it might turn it into a microwave type thing. But my gut feeling is that this would either release, or hurt, the Spren, or both.

I'd love to see what Duralumin and Chromium do too. I find all 4 Spiritual metals interesting but especially Chromium.

10 minutes ago, BenduLuke said:

In the case of a steel compound twin (Wax burned steel giving him pushes but stored and tapped Iron for mass) where the twin burns and stores to steel their speed would magnify like Miles health magnified because he compounded gold.  They could store speed, burn their steelmind to store many times more speed essentially producing an unlimited supply of speed so long as they find some way to mitigate wind resistance which could burn them to death if they move fast enough. They can withstand the G-forces generated. Of course the flip side of that would be that they may be able to tap the speed in their metal minds to magnify any steel pushes creating balistically fast accelerating metal projectiles. They certainly could add their own physical velocity to any metal projectile they push. It really would be the flash with a ranged attack and flight.

Maybe they could even launch a Radiant into space by their belt buckle. Only a windrunner or skybreaker could recover from that attack.

Really, any Compounder is lethal if they have the imagination. Gold much harder to kill than a Radiant but one of the least scary. Compounded Connection sounds like they have huge Connection options. Fortune might make you Mat freaking Cauthon but able to Leech investiture.  Nicrosil and you could self invest so much that Surges would be useless against you. Brass and you're the Human Torch. But the scariest is Zinc. God-brain AND manipulation powers?!

On 06/12/2020 at 10:58 PM, Cheat Commando said:

On a few different other topics, the idea that Kelsier is a Dawnshard has come up. I have been reading through the fist Mistborn trilogy, plus Secret History and The Eleventh Metal, and I have found some evidence that I think indicates that Kelsier is INDEED a Dawnshard.

By the way, there are many Mistborn spoilers here, so be warned!!!

From "Secret History"

From "The Hero of Ages"

But this is the one that struck me the most:

From "The Eleventh Metal" (Kelsier is having an introspective moment)

 

 

My assumptions:

1. There is a Survive Dawnshard
2. Preservation was the Survive Dawnshard

My uncertainties:

1. When did Kelsier become the Survive Dawnshard? Was it in the Pits or was it when Preservation died?

Anyway, I'm going to say a few thoughts on the quotes I listed above.

From my first quote above, when Preservation dies and Kelsier remembers hearing the voice in the Pits, people have said that Preservation was incapable of speaking to people. To counter that argument, I say that Preservation was able to speak to Kelsier, not in his role as Preservation, but in his role as the Survive Dawnshard. Perhaps he was able to separate the power form his mind for a moment and speak the command to Kelsier in the Pits. Kelsier is certainly able to do the same thing when he commands Spook to survive. By the way, did you notice that it was an "all-powerful" command?

Now, of course Kelsier is better able to separate himself from the power of Preservation because he's not Connected enough to it, but maybe Leras could've pulled the power away from himself, just barely, to speak to Kelsier.

The second quote, from "Hero of Ages," I think was Brandon giving us foreshadowing WAY in advance. Demoux is a very perceptive guy, so I think it makes sense that he would say these things AND be correct. The way Rysn describes the Dawnshard at the end of chapter 19 sounded very similar to me.

Rysn: "The will of a god to remake things, to demand they be better"

Demoux: "The hopes of a divinity"

Then finally, the quote from "The Eleventh Metal."  While the word "remade" isn't capitalized here, it made me wonder if becoming a Dawnshard requires you to remake yourself: to be broken and pull yourself back together, rather than having something else remake you.

Anyway, that's my theory!

I'm 50-50 on this but it makes things interesting. 

Kell must have heard the Command, we think, to hold the Dawnshard. So it would be when Leras's Shadow passed it on I think. The Pits was just Snapping (and Snapping into a full MB is big enough). But Leras could have passed the Dawnshard on if he held it, and it adds a component to Kell's actions to help Vin survive in SH and his command at the end of BoM. 

It also makes him HUGELY dangerous, being a CS who had held a Shard for a while (one that fits the Dawnshard's Intent too) with all the impact of that, who has now manifested physically again with Full Born capabilities, knowledge, con-man and assassin skills, an organisation that seems to follow him and now a Dawnshard which I think would give him the ability to give a Divine command.

The big question for me is whether, assuming this is true, Kell's real target on Roshar is the Dawnshard there. We know people are seeking it, people the Endless want to hide it from (probably not just the Ghostbloods, and surely including Odium too?). Maybe Kell wants to get all 4 Shards that shattered Adonalsium. Maybe he isn't trying to become a God but, once again a theme for him, the One Who Killed God?

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On 07/12/2020 at 3:00 AM, Flyingbooks42 said:

07/12/2020 at 3:00 AM, Flyingbooks42 said:

I agree that Kelsier is likely a Dawnshard, but I don't think that Preservation was the Dawnshard before him, just because I don't feel like Shards would also be able to be Dawnshards at the same time. However, there must be a reason why Preservation was able to give a Command like a Dawnshard would have. I think that, to be able to do this, Preservation might have been "holding on" to the Dawnshard, similarly to the mural under Akinah.

I think it's hugely implied in Dawnshard that Shards can hold Dawnshards at the same time, and that it's necessary to best utilise the Dawnshard.

 

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"The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding,” Nikli said. His body began to re-form, hordelings crawling back into place. “All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning—the breadth of understanding—of a deity. And so, the Dawnshards. The four primal Commands that created all things.” He paused. “And then eventually, they were used to undo Adonalsium itself. . . .”

 

 

From Dawnshard. I think Intent clearly refers to a Shard. Not a group of Shards of one type, either, but a Shard. At their core they are attributes of Divinity that come down to Intent, and Intent frequently comes up regarding what they can and must do. They are also the things that come automatically with the understanding of a deity, automatically change the mind to make it so. So if the Sleepless are right, you need to have at least held a Shard, or possibly had another access to boosted capacity like Compounded Zinc or similar, in order to use a Dawnshard properly. 

 

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“Fortunately, you would not be able to employ it,” Nikli said. “It is beyond your capacity. But there are those in the cosmere who could use it for terrible acts.”

 

 

A level 4 Radiant?

Any Mistborn that isn't Vin with the Mists would struggle.

With enough Atium they would manage against most of them but probably not Bondsmiths. With Duralumin, they could catch a Radiant by surprise and One Hit Kill one with a rail gun shot or an unstoppable melee attack. But otherwise they are in trouble. 

Compounders on the other hand would be an absolute menace almost no matter which one they were, and some (Steel) would destroy a Radiant if they have enough stored Speed. 

A Fullborn would utterly wreck a Radiant. 

16 hours ago, Invocation said:

I might have to disagree. Invention seems to be in a position to fill that slot, since Harmony was only able to successfully contact them once. 

Mercy could be the opposition to Odium. Seems close enough to Charity to fit. Also, as a little tidbit, Cultivation is closer to being the opposite of Preservation than Ruin was, which is kind of funny. 

I'd say Charity fitted into Endowment, personally.

A combination of Mercy and Endowment

55 minutes ago, trav said:

this is fine and dandy. I could see that. 

still far from what Bondsmiths already did or were about to do. 

its also not a deliberate or controlled process. not the way you suggest it. 

True, but Copperminds seem to have a lot of control in the exercise of their Feruchemy, etc. It depends on how Connection can be manipulated 

My order is:

WoR which is phenomenal and Brandon's best book aside from The Gathering Storm.

WoK

Close behind it RoW though they may swap

OB which isn't bad and had great moments but the flow was too uneven.

48 minutes ago, trav said:

its based on what rules we know of. currently.
Brandon can do w/e if he feels like it down the road, obviously. I just don't see that happening.

compare it to other Compounding. a gold Compounder can't heal others, only itself. why would a Duralumin Compounder be able to affect the Connection of others?
so far, this would make not much sense.

If you tap a lot of Connection to actively Connect, something that seems to inherently attract from what we've seen of it (its links to the Surge of Adhesion and Cohesion, its vague correlation to Gravity), I don't think it's absurd at all to suggest that it would inherently draw others' self/Connection to you and force a Connection between you and anything you touch or target. 

It depends.

If he's used to fuel Nightblood for a few seconds as his very existence, his eternal soul, is destroyed forever, does that count?

6 minutes ago, More Cynical Than Funny said:

The Eleventh Metal, Era 1, Secret History Era 2, or RoW Kelsier?

Yes

19 minutes ago, Elegy said:

But who's denying Kelsier is a maniac and potentially dangerous? Noone in this thread, as far as I know. I think you're setting up a straw man there. People are not surprised by him being a villain. They are surprised that he's the head of a group that doesn't seem to fit his worldview and his view of himself. Imagine Taravangian becoming Lezian the Pursuer between books/book series. Of course Taravangian is not a hero, and chances are he's responsible for even more deaths than Lezian (since we don't know of any devastating large-scale civil wars that one started) ... People would not be surprised by him being a villain, they would be surprised by him being that villain.

(Again the reminder that I don't think it's necessarily wrong for him to be Thaidakar or even a bad decision in general, just that it isn't intuitive and some things about the informations we have at the moment don't add up and need clarification.)

Well, I disagree on that too, I think the GBs almost perfectly fit Kell's worldview and MO and actions. As for his view of himself, I'm pretty sure most of the villains don't think they look like villains 

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That makes perfect sense, except for one thing: the Seon

If Mraize is low level, what resources are at Iyatil's disposal? I have to ask again. How sure are we that the box Shallan took into Shadesmar was the same box that Mraize had given her?

Next to Hoid they seem the best informed.

I am afraid I need to point out that he also seems to have been a savior to the Southeners. Sure, he had statues of himself built, but he did help them.

When Kelsier met Khrissalla it seemed to me that he internally vowed to never be in a situation of acting without knowing what's going on again. And secondly, he found offworlders to be less than helpful.

Ah yeah, thanks for reminding me. He also has a well established god complex.

Anyway, as for Kell not being in this to be a goody twoshoes:

Sanderson has repeatedly said that Kell would be a villain in many other circumstances and stories. He wrote him that way. It's amazing that people are surprised that he might turn out to be a villain or at best chaotic neutral character. Sanderson told us this "plot twist" years ago.

8 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Ghostbloods appear to be his new crew, which means they are ‘his’ the way the old crew was. I don’t think he’s changed so much that that wouldn’t be the case.

He is playing them though. Kell played his old crew too. He plays everyone.

I don’t think Kell would want a Shard for himself. He’d want one for Saze, so that Harmony can act.

I'm not 100% sure he and Harmony are still that close. It's been 300 years, Kell is all alone and every Cognitive Shadow we've seen starts to go nuts, and Saze has been holding two warring Intents the whole time. 

I definitely think Kell would want a Shard for himself. He's semi-obsessed with Godhood already. He'd tell himself it would be to improve things for everyone, and it would be partly true, but everything I've ever seen from Kell tells me he'd jump at the chance to get that kind of power. 

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Why not just have Kell figure out how to free himself so we can finally see a Fullborn in action? TLR was too lazy to show us. We got hints of what one could do in BoM. But we’ve never seen a Fullborn really go all out...

Kel Vs Unleashed Vasher with NB and Azure with DB Vs 5th Level Dalinar, Szeth, Kal, Shallan, Lift, Jasnah, Taln etc Vs Moash with a stick

Not Stick though. Then he'd win.

I'm sure Kel's end game is different from the Ghostbloods and he's probably playing them, to be honest.

I'm not sure that means he has a "good" Endgame. He is a manipulative bastard with a mean streak and pretty dark morals. Almost all of his life he has been motivated by greed and self-advancement, and after that revenge, and then by loyalty to his own. But his own are all dead except Saze and Marsh.

That he's working with those two is possible. But it's also possible that he's got his own plan in which he gains, now that his reasons for altruism are good and gone. 

Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he had the same aim, with different methods, to Hoid with their parallels. Maybe he's trying to reform Adonalsium but with him as the Holder. He couldn't hold Harmony but would the conflict of Intents exist for Adonalsium approached in a certain Shardic Order? In which case what comes first for Kel? Cultivation would be a possibility. Or the Survival Shard. 

Or maybe, and this would explain his interest in Roshar, he's looking for the Dawnshards. Someone mentioned on Facebook, and I'm not convinced but it's an interesting theory, that in SH