KidWayne

I propose the following: The Fused are to Odium as the Returned are to Endowment The Returned are to Endowment as the Heralds are to Honor This provides the bridge to the commonly supposed theory that... The Fused are to Odium as the Heralds are to Honor All of this is based on this WoB (note the words in blue): We have been told by previous WoBs that Returned are Cognitive Shadows, too. This has implications for Vasher/Zahel and it is interesting to ponder the connection to Kelsier, Shades on Threnody and other Cognitive Shadows that we've seen across the Cosmere. Brandon appears to be refining his definition of what a Cognitive Shadow is, how it manifests in the Physical Realm vs. the Cognitive Realm, and what a Cognitive Shadow is able to do. Random Thoughts and Cosmere Questions I'm most interested in how Cognitive Shadows die (or don't die). On Roshar, I'm dying to know what happens to regular folks who don't go on to become Cognitive Shadows when they die because it doesn't look like it did on Scadrial during M:SH. All we know so far is that Cognitive Shadows who die in the Physical Realm on Roshar appear to respawn in the Cognitive Realm on Braize/Damnation. So what happens to regular people immediately post-mortem if their consciousness isn't manifesting in Shadesmar? Are they popping up in the Cognitive Realm on Ashyn? That might line up with the Vorin theological explanation of the afterlife... If Vasher/Zahel were to die on Roshar, would he go to Braize or is that reserved for those tied to the Oathpact in some way? Speaking of Vasher, I really want an explanation for how he avoids consuming his Divine Breath. Is he feeding on other sources of investiture, or did he find some way to permanently suppress need to consume a breath's worth of investiture each week? It seems to me that Nightblood uses his sheath to permanently suppress his investiture consumption while maintaining a presence, consciousness, and sapience in the Physical Realm. Why is it that a those who are naturally born on Nalthis never consume their breath? Can Nalthians hold investiture better than other planets' human populations? Could a Nalthian hold stormlight better or even perfectly? If so, a Nalthian Knight Radiant / honorblade holder would be formidable. The Heralds don't seem to have a need to regularly consume investiture. So I wonder... does Kelsier consume investiture when he manifests in the Physical Realm, or is his use of Hemalurgy sufficient to sustain his physical manifestation until his physical body is destroyed? How do Threnody's shades fit into all of this? Isn't Threnody primarily invested by splinters of Ambition? If Ambition's investiture isn't sentient like spren or seons, who is investing the Shades? Is it something that the dead do post-mortem (i.e. the ceremony Nazh alludes to in his meeting with Kelsier)? It's worth noting that they seem to be permanent without the need to regularly consume investiture like the Heralds and unlike the Returned. Jezrien's Murder Weapon I also think that Cognitive Shadows' dependence on investiture to exist tells us that the blade that killed Jezrien either killed him by consuming and storing his investiture, or converted him into investiture and stored Jezrien's consciousness. I think the first option is most likely now that I think about it, even though until now I preferred to think that Jezrien had been captured by the blade in the same way that the Thrill had been captured by the perfect gem/King's Drop. If you think Jezrien has been captured within the blade's sapphire, then would drawing him out result in the death of the person trying to rescue him (like how the Fused essentially *erase* their host body's consciousness when they posses a Singer)?

If Moash kills Lirin, it could send Kaladin on the path to join team Odium. Storms, it could set him up as Odium's Champion against Dalinar. All the seeds are there if you think about it. I would probably hate this outcome, but I could see Lirin's last words haunting Kaladin to the point that he would be tempted to give Odium his pain.

...

I think the meaning of that passage was that the spren's father was a Deadeye and that if unconfined in Shadesmar, he would naturally migrate to the location of his body (a.k.a. the shardblade he represents) in the Physical realm (or at least the reflection of that location in Shadesmar). The "person who stole his body" is the shardbearer who is bonded to (or carries) the shardblade that is his father's physical manifestation. Ahhh, ninja'd by @Draigon. Oh well.

I agree that this is most interesting insofar as it pertains to the Shattered Plains. Assuming the Sibling is connected in some fashion to stone (which I think is probable), then what is going on with the Shattered Plains? I'm not so sure the Dustbringers are responsible, I think it's more likely that the harm done to the Sibling is related to the shattering of the Shattered Plains. I also like the thought that the event was in some way related to a confrontation of the Voidbringers/Unmade. The presence of the Listeners/Parshendi in that location isn't likely to be coincidental.

How to solve this problem: Regarding Alethi turncoats → Dalinar takes a page from Kaladin's 'Return-to-Hearthstone' playbook and plops the perfect gem containing the Thrill on the table. He explains that the gem contains one of the Unmade and that the imprisoned entity - the Thrill (I forget it's proper name) - was responsible for house Sadeas' treachery. That problem is now contained. He also might choose to explain how bitterness, resentment, hatred and nursing a grudge opens an individual (or even a whole group) up to Odium. Regarding Szeth → Let Szeth do all the talking. Let Szeth explained what happened, why he did what he did, and who was behind the assassinations of the world leaders. Then prove Szeth's sincerity by allowing him to confront the Shin. It probably isn't the best idea to allow him to begin bringing them to justice - at least not at first. But calling them on their chull-scat denial of reality is definitely appropriate. Szeth's credibility → Taravangian has already confessed to some of his involvement with the Assassin in White to Dalinar. Let's not forget that Szeth has odd shadowy afterimages of himself trailing in his wake. Combine that oddity with his deadly skill and reputation and people are going to respect him out of fear if nothing else. He hasn't shown any inclinations toward conquest, just inexplicable murders. So, even though Dalinar doesn't want to operate as a tyrant, having Szeth in his entourage is basically the "big stick" part of "walk softly and carry a big stick." Dalinar doesn't even know what he has in Szeth, since Szeth carries Nightblood who very likely can weaken/harm Shards and other investiture based/dependent forms of consciousness (e.g. the Unmade, cognitive shadows, and probably spren) Case in point → I think Szeth is a bigger problem for Taravangian than he is for Dalinar. Assuming Dalinar can convince the other heads of state to see aligning themselves to the power of the Knights Radiant (and his power in particular) as a political, tactical, and existential reality; then I don't think he will have too much trouble.

Yeah, I think this is right. Remember narratively, the surges are supposed to be powerful enough to have destroyed the original humans' planet. So, surgebinding needs to be pretty powerful. I can't imagine an army of Lerasium Mistborn would be even remotely capable of destroying a planet. They can do lots of cool things, but as far as raw power is concerned, it's just not there (implausible exception: compounding of weight to the point that a feruchemist could mimic a giant meteor impact). Elsecallers' ability to soulcast like a boss are limited by Stormlight supply, gem type, and gem quantity. But I agree, if you can supply these things in vast quantities and make them available as needed, Elsecallers are ridiculously powerful. My only thought is that they are mostly limited to the Cognitive and Physical realms, so they have little to no effect on the Spiritual realm which limits their abilities to contend with powerfully invested cognitive shadows and Shards.

Michael Kramer & Kate Reading took me through the Wheel of Time, both Mistborn series, and the first two Stormlight books. *begin rant* However, Kate got on my nerves in WoK when she mispronounced Sadeas toward the end ("Sa-dee-es" vs. the generally accepted "Sad-ee-as"). Then, she changed, forgot, or mixed up her accent for the Thaylens between the Karbranth scenes in WoK and the Wind's Pleasure scenes in WoR. Oathbringer was just poorly directed / edited in my opinion. It was probably one of the biggest/longest reads they've done, but there are just all kinds of narration errors and discontinuities throughout the book. My frustrations with OB are mostly inconsistent/mispronounced names, but it wasn't just names... Kramer actually transposes a letter and reads the wrong word at one point (it's killing me that I can't remember the exact word/phrase; I'll edit this if it comes to me). Also, yes Kramer doing Pattern was odd, but the narrators don't switch based on character; they switch based on character viewpoint. At least he tried to imitate Kate's Pattern voice. I still have nothing but love for Michael Kramer & Kate Reading (I worry about their age / impending retirement considering they've been narrating since at least 1990). However, some better directing would be appreciated on such large projects that are almost assured to be best sellers. *end rant* Some of this might be my own fault, I couldn't wait on them to read to me for OB. Also I could download the digital ebook at midnight and Audible.com made me wait until like 2 or 3 a.m. on Nov. 14. So, I tried to read on my iPad when I could get away with it and then switch to audio at work. Curiously, I heard Kramer and Reading's character voices in my head as I read through OB in print. That was weird but I felt like it added to my enjoyment of the print version.

I was going to do a post very similar to this one, but I found this thread while trying to credit one of my ideas to someone else. So I'll post it here first. I thought Oathbringer dropped the names of two new Shards - Wisdom & Purity - but both of those references are contested (neither passage capitalizes the name when it seems like it should be if these were indeed references to new Shards). So, I spent an afternoon doing research on the attributes of God in the Abrahamic faith traditions. I even delved a little into Norse, Canaanite, and Babylonian Mythology as well as Chinese folk religion (I intentionally ignored the Greco-Roman, Hindu & Egyptian pantheons for various reasons). Here is what I came up with (spoilered for length & new details from OB about the Shards on Roshar): Divine attributes common to all Shards immanent (investment in the physical) eternal/immortal immutable (unchanging) omni-present (within realm) spiritual in essence ineffable (cannot be fully understood by mortals) A paragon of Intent (eventually and not completely, but mostly) The Cosmere is Henotheistic after the Shattering Pre-shattering Cosmology appears to have been Monotheistic, but that is uncertain. If all the Shards were to be shattered, the Cosmere might become either... Animistic: There are hundreds of trillions of gods (e.g. spren or aons) or more; everything probably has a god, up to and including individual blades of grass. Pantheistic: God is in everything and everything is God (e.g. the One on Roshar) NOTE: Pantheism overlaps with and occasionally reverts back to monotheism (e.g. the rebirth of the cosmos after Ragnarök in Norse Mythology). This could be how Adonalsium came to be (and will come to be again) Wheel of Time style. Potential candidates for other shards: Creativity / Imagination / Serendipity / Inspiration Creative Abil. or ???? Category Hope ???? Category Love ???? Category ← likely covered by Devotion Mercy / Empathy ???? Category Unity ???? Category Contentment / Fulfillment ???? Category Courage ???? Category Order Kingship Category ← likely covered by Dominion / Honor Discipline Kingship Category ← likely covered by Honor and/or Cultivation Kindness ???? Category ← likely covered by Devotion / Endowment Fear / Respect ???? Category or Kingship Category Pride / Majesty ???? Category or Kingship Category

Fair enough. I skimmed the thread for it, but I missed it. My bad. Good catch. I like where you went with that and I agree with your assessment.

It surprised me that no one mentioned Dalinar's comment that the wild ryshadium are accompanied by music spren. This makes me think that they are some kind of Cultivation-inspired hybrid that was made specifically for Roshar. Roshar's wildlife seems to feature gemhearts, spren associations, and carapace. Ryshadium may or may not have gemhearts but they do have stone hooves (similar to carapace)and they make spren bonds. The fact that they are associated with music spren makes me think that they are somehow able to tune into the Rhythms of the Parsh/Singers/Listeners since we see Venli's spren, Timbre, pulsing to those rhythms as well.

@Ookla the Obtuse This is some "grade A" theorycrafting, my friend. All I have to add is that there is a WoB that I've seen where Brandon says that part of a person exists in the spiritual realm after death. So, you might not even need Nohadon to exist in the cognitive realm in order for him to communicate with Dalinar via Connection. We even see this with Evi and Dalinar in the book (when she forgives him from the Beyond/Spiritual Realm/Wherever). So Nohadon may be able to pull a Kel & Spook dream conversation from the spiritual realm thanks to the Connection established by Dalinar's love/memorization of The Way of Kings.

I wonder if his agreement with Dalinar is null and void if Dalinar is killed... That would certainly be an interesting cliffhanger for book 5.

@Torrieltar Thanks! I didn't know about this and I learned a thing or two. Really cool.

@Lupis So, you were underwhelmed by the threat of Odium because he ran away after confronting Dalinar? Well, remember that he is bound to his agreements and to Roshar. Dalinar was Odium's intended champion and Amaram would have probably been his second choice if forced to name one on short notice (and Amaram couldn't even best Kaladin). As he had already agreed to a contest of champions - and Dalinar evaded being named as Odium's champion - Odium could have lost if he stuck around long enough for Dalinar to challenge him to name a champion. Taravangian alludes to this when he makes his deal with Odium. So, it isn't a lack of power that made Odium flee, it was his obligation to keep his word and the resulting consequences. Odium basically called a tactical retreat so that he had time to prepare a new champion.

(Also @Argent) That sand (most likely) isn't what you think it is. Relevant WoB: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=590#40 Relevant prior post regarding Hoid telling stories with black/white color-changing sand in Warbreaker:

Perhaps the "sleeping" sibling spren is contained inside and that is why he/she/it is said to be sleeping.

I just want to understand the conflict. So far, The Stormlight Archives have been an onion. In OB, it almost felt like we had gotten to the core of the story; however, when one stops to think about it, we really just met the villain and foiled his plan A. So, now the world stands divided, the KR understand themselves very little, and they still aren't whole. We still have very little idea about how the Heralds are a part of the story now that the Everstorm has come, and we have no idea how to fight Odium or even what the good guy's goal for fighting him is. I seriously doubt that the KR can fight and win against a god. Perhaps all bets are in for the eventual contest of champions, but that doesn't say how Odium will be dealt with even if the good guys won. Also we still have no clue about the Shin, the Aimians, or Cultivation. The 4th book needs to pull some of this together so that we can wrap up some loose ends before the end of book 5.

You were definitely one of those people who wondered why the eagles didn't just fly the One Ring to Mt. Doom in LOTR, weren't you? To actually answer the OP, the thing is that Hoid IS helping. We have seen him offer help and advice to almost all of the KR. Maybe it's not enough in your opinion, but Hoid is helping in one significant way you aren't considering: the letters. It very well may be that only a god can successfully oppose another god. If so, then there's no point in revealing his knowledge since that will simply encourage those to whom he reveals things to ask more questions and expect more active involvement from him. Obviously Hoid is trying to fly under the radar in order to avoid detection by Odium. Hoid's M.O. is to help as many people escape oppression as he can while interfering as little as possible, as we have seen from him in each of his appearances.

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That WoB simply says that there isn't a one-to-one correlation between the powers of a given KR order and the corresponding Parshendi form of power. In other words just because Windrunners can do a certain thing, it doesn't mean that this sort of voidbinding (see picture below) is going to be its inverse or have similar powers. I agree the Stormform is not surgebinding, but I think you meant to say voidbinding. What are these differences between the Fused and the KR lashings? Are you talking about how the Fused couldn't change speed as quickly as Szeth & Kaladin? This was actually discussed here: and here: @Beatsmorn I like your post. I favor option #2 from your list as I think that the difference in the bond is related to the way in which the bond is formed as opposed to what the bond achieves. The Parsh-people / Singers form a bond by taking a spren into their gemheart; whereas humans form nahel bonds which grant spren the ability to think in the physical realm. I strongly wonder whether Venli will ever be able to use Timbre as a shardblade. If Timbre had to reside in her gemheart then I would say no, but Venli seems to have taken a voidspren into her gemheart and to have formed a true nahel bond with Timbre. So, she will not be all that useful in establishing the process by which other Singers will bond true spren.

Easy, voidlight and stormlight both grant access to the surges. Regardless of which type of investiture is being used, manipulating the surges is still surgebinding. I propose that voidbinding is something entirely different. It may related to the surges, but I believe that the way in which it does so will manifest in a manner wholly unlike the familiar varieties of surgebinding we have seen from the Knights Radiant and the Fused (which are for all intents and purposes the same). Contrast that with the Parshendi "Stormform" that gave them the ability to summon the Everstorm and manipulate lightning. That is not something we have seen a Knight Radiant do. Also, consider Renarin's strange ability to see the future. I propose that these are examples of voidbinding. Side Note: The Fused are the returned souls of ancient singers, right? We also know that the spren "betrayed" the singers by preferring to bond humans, right? Well, what if the souls of the Fused simply retain the surgebinding abilities once granted to them by their bond with a spren that we would think of as associated with an order of the Knights Radiant?

I guessing that it has something to do with another translated phrase from the Dawnchant... The human refugees wanted the lands that were not given to them. They wanted gods better than they had. After all, Hoid nailed it when he said that novelty is humanity's most valued quality. So, they expanded into Roshar beyond Shinovar. This caused a war, and it seems like the humans must have won it. The outraged souls of the singers felt so betrayed by the ingratitude and greed of the refugees that their passion attracted the attention of Odium. Much like Gavilar and Dalinar mellowed after their conquests, the victors of the 1st desolation likely turned their thoughts on how to hold the lands they had conquered. In the process, they turned away from passion and towards thoughts of Cultivation & Honor. I'm not sure how fast the shift occurred, but there was a shift and the humans abandoned Odium since what he offered was no longer suited to their purposes. However, the souls of the slaughtered singers would have found Odium's offerings very attractive. So, the next Desolation was the first one where the humans fought against the returned souls of the singers. They repurposed the name "voidbringer" (the name that was originally given to them) and applied it to these creatures who had returned from the void. I imagine that it was during or after this conflict that the Oathpact was established.

I understood his cosmere-level endgame to be the conquest of the cosmere with the intent to remake it according to his preferences. He more or less tells Dalinar and Teravangian that he would kill Cultivation and remake Roshar. So, I think this is a likely pattern for his larger plans as well. He seems to be attacking the Shards that are most likely to want to oppose or interfere with his plans... Ambition, Dominion, Devotion, Honor, Cultivation. His other motives seem to be to attack dishardic worlds because of the potential for Harmony-styled consolidation, and/or to exterminate the shards that might want to consolidate in an effort to reform Adonalsium (or who might be willing to consolidate as that would likely threaten his ability to be the last Shard standing). We know from WoB that Odium is intimidated by Harmony.

Aluminum foil hat time! The Ghostbloods are in possession of (or have a relationship with) some form of Abition's sentient investiture (e.g. a spren, a sliver, or a cognitive shadow). This leads them to collect invested objects, hunt their goals with zeal, and oppose Odium. However, like Odium their end game is to be on top when the dust settles (because Ambition is ambitious). This also explains the WoB that says Kelsier would have done exceedingly well in the Ghostbloods.