Eagle of the Forest Path

On 2/13/2017 at 11:32 PM, neongrey said:

P.1

Ooh, so this is the actual opener? Not a huge fan of this first paragraph, it's a combination of assuming the reader already has information and shoving other information at the reader. Reads clumsy, and it's a waste of a potential hook; the start's a crime scene but you're opening off with navel gazing.
I'll look into shuffling this around a bit.

Otherwise, the page here is pretty by-the-numbers, which is fine for what you're doing; the bit describing how Probitus bends is a bit awkwardly-phrased, I think; i think the trouble bit is 'simultaneously bend his good right leg'; simultaneously is a bit out of step with the register of the surrounding, and while i'd take bending a leg as a thing for a broader action, when it comes down to this fine a grade of description, going for 'leg' instead of 'knee' doesn't quite scan.
I'll try re-wording. But I do want to describe how hard it is for Pro to do stuff like that.

p.2

The remainder of the scene is telly, but otherwise fine, though I note that paint wouldn't really hide a lot of distinctive scars; if there's any physical bump there it's going to still be detailed by the paint.
Not if it's thick grease-paint, maybe I should specify.

I'm always a bit wary of simple declaratives of 'x hated y' 'z loved a', etc; most of the time they're redundant and they're not very respectful to the reader and I think that's true here as well. You're pretty clearly detailing why Probitus hates this; show some trust that the reader's going to pick up on this.
Okay.

P.3

Your fantasy swears are suffering some find-and-replace clunk here. Abyss doesn't really work as a universal synonym for hell as an expletive; it's breaking up your sentence flow. I'd either stick with hell, or if you must have a nonstandard equivalent, use something that carries a similar 'mild swear' connotation that's not more than one syllable. Especially with swears, you want to map to social connotation, not to literal meaning.
I know I'm supposed to accept criticism and not try to justify or defend things, but in this case "abyss" is pretty appropriate, culturally.
I've got a civilization entirely surrounded by sea, who bury their dead at sea (though that's not mentioned in-text), a big part of their afterlife myths involve souls of the deceased walking around on the ocean floor (also not mentioned) so using "abyss" - meanings of which include "bottomless depth" and "a flat area on the ocean floor" - as a curse makes a lot of sense to me.

P.4

Yeah, see, it works a little bit better here; it's not strictly being a functional substitute for hell. Basically, mix your curse words up. They're a very complex and, dare I say, articulate part of language, but they're oversimplified in ways that makes them fail to ring true a lot of the time.

'stated with a nod for emphasis' is a lot of clunk for one little sentence.
Gotcha.

If water clocks are the norm, I wonder if 'bell' is the right descriptor; certainly it feels off in this sentence.

Spell out numbers, don't type the number.
I can't believe I did that! Already fixed it.

P.5

Not bad, but I think your description here is trying to explain too much. I feel like you could cut this page down by half and not lose any of the intended takeaways.

P.6

As above, this feels pretty inflated; you're explaining a lot and it doesn't feel either interesting or important. The little greeting-ritual, too, I think, is a very flimsy sheet over giving out the 'known each other a decade' thing;

P.7

As above, yeah, mostly the prose just feels unfocused, I think it's nothing a really thorough edit can't chop down.
From P.5 on: I'll cut it down where I can.

P.8

As above, but the last sentence also just does not function correctly.
On a story level, grammatically, tone, ... ?

Overall, it's not bad at all, really, there's just so much meandering prose here and so much effort given to hammering in information that doesn't need to be done. Olyve continues to look like a typo; I truly honestly don't see why you can't just call it an olive. Functionally and socially they are 100% identical, and if you feel it critical to make it clear at some point that it's a similar fruit that comes from the sea, that's a literal one-sentence thing that can be folded in trivially.
The olyve-with-a-y thing is open to replacement, I just need to find one that feels right to me.

On 2/14/2017 at 3:23 AM, kaisa said:

Overall

The first half was interesting, but the second half wandered to... I don't know where. I'm still not certain what even happened in the second half, other than our main guy went to a barber. The chapter seems to wander in places, and pack too much into others. There's a solid story here, I can see it, but I think the fat probably needs to be trimmed as it were.

I'll try to balance it out.

As I go

- I'd delete that first sentence and let the second one start. The first sentence isn't a great hook, the second is better.
Good point.

- That first paragraph is... dense for a start. It makes me want to skim because it's mostly moving and navel-gazing.
Gotcha.

- the information on the dead woman is interesting, and engaging. How old is she though? Girl would be pretty young, but she's a priest? Later she is called a woman so... girl just being used by the speaker? That's cool, if it's how the speaker would refer to a woman. Tells a lot about the character.
She's an adult (early to mid-twenties), but from Pro's perspective (in his late fifties) that still qualifies as "girl".

- bottom of page three repeats information we already know
That it's the same killer? That the victim was a FP? Both things that Pro should report to his boss (though maybe not on-screen).

- back into it middle of page four. The addition of the apprentice is interesting
Yay!

- page five: ack, too much moving around again. I want this to be snappier
I'll condense this.

- page six: you're trying to pack too much, I think, into this chapter. So much backstory and character and world building and its all starting to blur here
Maybe I can find a solution to that, but honestly I'm not that hopeful.

- also still not a fan of 'olyve', in that it jars me from the narrative
As above, the olyve-with-a-y thing is open to replacement, I just need to find one that feels right to me.

On 2/14/2017 at 2:28 PM, Mandamon said:

Similar comments to the others. The first section is good, and I'm interested in Probitus solving the murders. After that, things begin to wander.
Thanks... and darn.

"Olyve" also pulls me out, and I correct it mentally to "olive."
Okay, I'm definitely changing that.

Good description of Probitus and how his limp affects him. It helps the narrative to show what extra he has to do to get around, and how this slows him down.
Thanks.

Interesting to see Probitus' thoughts of Laurea before we meet her. I think this version will help her introduction to him later on, and help Probitus be more sympathetic.
Yay!

pg 7: "packs of paper rats"
--Strange that this isn't mentioned the first time Probitus bumped into him. The "Dhe" descriptor doesn't tell me much, but "packs of paper rats" draws me in.
First time he didn't get a good look at them... I might be able to change that.

On 2/15/2017 at 1:11 AM, rdpulfer said:

- The opening goes into the murders too quickly - it doesn't give much time for the reader to get their bearings or describe the scenes.
I've got another comment that basically says I don't get to the murders soon enough. I guess the part before the crime scene isn't "strong" enough, so I need to either expand it or cut it out entirely. Something for me to think on.

- I like the note about paint, since gloves are a luxury.
I'm fond of that detail myself.

- "...never had a chance." feels a bit like a crime scene cliche, at least to me.
I know, but sometimes you can't really avoid cliches. I will try though.

- Overall, I do like the setting and the set-up - I think it just needs to be re-arranged a bit to show a little more substance in between the spaces.
Yeah, even if this story goes nowhere, the setting is going to make another appearance... once I find the right story for it. I'll make an effort on rearranging. 

On 2/17/2017 at 5:11 PM, Hobbit said:

It looks like I wasn't the only one to find the chapter a bit bloated for your purposes.  I think there's good bones - there's murder, paper rats, the promise of a character conflict, etc. but it's getting muddled in your prose.  It just needs a tightening up.  I feel like you spend longer than you have to on each of Pro’s thoughts - his bad leg, his patronage of the barber, his worry about the unsolvable case.  We get the idea after your first description, and after that, you only need a brief mention to remind us that he’s still thinking about these things.  @neongrey pointed out a few places where you use more words than you need to for a concept; I think looking for and fixing these will also help a lot.  And as someone mentioned above, don't be afraid to leave some of this information for later.
Thanks, I will.

Specifics:

The notebook came out of his sash and onto the desk and Probitus commenced the laborious task of deciphering the young lictor’s atrocious handwriting and transcribing his notes to be included in the official case file.
This is quite a long string of "and"s.
I hadn't actually noticed and did you know that linking a chain of terms with "ands" is a stylistic scheme and that it's called a polysyndeton?

How did I ever think that smile made him likeable?
His boss's behavior does seem rather at odds with how friendly their conversation started out. I got the impression that his boss wouldn't be so quick to pull rank on him.
Yeah, that's a bit disjointed there, character-wise.

He looked back to where the other person was still dashing upslope, only getting a glimpse of thinning hair on a thin man. Were those Dhé chasing him?
I'm not sure I understand what's happening here.
Guy bumps into Pro, Pro turns around, sees the guy's back and a pack of Dhé chasing him, which he finds unusual.

If he allowed his curious nature to guide him in this, it would eat away at him, dragging him to gloomy depths. He’d start dwelling on his failures again, withdraw from the world.
This was an abrupt transition from curiosity nagging him to full-on depression.  Is he being a bit sarcastic with himself?
He gets really, really compulsive about solving things. But it is quite abrupt.

End of Page 6: I like the sound of this barber dude, but at this point we've been inside Pro's head for a long time - basically two pages - so I'm getting fatigued.

“We’ve known each other for nearly a decade now, Crinus. Must I tell you to call me Probitus every time I come in here?”
Sounds maid-and-butler this way. I think you could find a way to say the same thing a bit more naturally.
Okay. (Though this is the first time I've hear M&B applied to a single line.)

The Dhé caught up to him and some of them actually climbed up his skinny legs.
Oh, he could see these before? Since you didn't mention them I assumed they were invisible.
Nope, not invisible, Dhé are sort of like paper golems (these are shaped like rats), though they get worshiped like household gods.

whose trousers had dropped to his ankles.
Is this what the paper rats do? Humiliation? Or are they also biting him or something?  I think you explained this in your prologue, but it's been long enough that a quick reminder would be appreciated.
Humiliation is part of it, property damage is another, actual physical harm only by tying his shoelaces together and such. In a few chapters I'll go into it in more detail.

I'm interested to see what Pro's plans are for this poor guy being chased by the rats, and I'm looking forward to the introduction of an apprentice.  And I'm always up for a good mystery.  Tighten things up and I think the chapter will have more forward momentum.
Okay, thanks.

P.S. Fun fact about Romans: they had a verb (togo, togare) that literally translates: "to toga."  It means to put on a toga, but they just said, "After I went to the baths I toga'd."  Not sure if that's relevant to your world building, but I thought I'd share.
It is sort of relevant, though sadly it's not really usable in the text.

On 2/19/2017 at 7:05 AM, shadowkissed said:

You could have such a fantastic, noir-y beginning if you spent just a short paragraph describing the murder scene--the blood, the position of the body, the surroundings. You do this a little later on, but you could really have a fantastic, visceral moment right out of the gate, as well as strengthen your characterization of Pro as a keen-eyed detective and give your reader a quicker sense of your world-building with one opening paragraph.
Noir is awesome, but I don't know if it's what I should be shooting for.

On p3, when he's arguing about the assistant, I think your aside ("Even if I did have time, I wouldn't want to" etc) is unnecessary--you convey that sentiment with his reaction before this--and spelling it out like that also makes him seem like more of a jerk than I think you're going for. Brash, yes, jerk, no. Or, at least, that's the sense I got from the rest of the chapter.
You're right, it's too jerky. Pro is going to get downright petty later on, but he's not supposed to be a jerk.

On p7, I had to re-read the transition between his barber and getting back out on the street a few times to figure out what had happened. It's a little brief and confusing, at least for me. I don't know if a paragraph break would help or another sentence, or if it's too minor an issue to stress over. You might also consider saving that for chapter 2 and tightening up the first chapter a little--the barber doesn't seem like he will be a particularly vital character, so he doesn't have to be introduced so early. I can see why you included this here--it gives more nuance about the expectations placed upon him by the people he knows and his reputation throughout his city--but you might consider scooting it a little later on.
The expectations thing is one of the reasons (glad you noticed), but another one is that I needed him out on the street so he could run into the guy with the Dhé.
I'll work on that section again.

On p7-8, his reaction to the guy seems a little at odds with the hard-boiled detective persona we saw earlier. A softer side of him would provide a more complex character, but it seems a little confusing here and at this speed. You could either make him a little more gruff with the guy--as in, still helpful, but a little less immediately so--or put this nuance a little farther in, when we've gotten a chance to know him better.
Good point, I'll gruff him up.

Also, more general, probably stupid question: are the Dhe like rats? I assumed "Dhe" was an abbreviation for the priests until right up at the end, when I couldn't figure out why a person would be crawling up the guy's leg. So, do the priests worship the rats? Do they just happen to take their names from the same etymological source? There might have been some explanation in the prologue, which I didn't read, but it was confusing for me.
Dhé are paper golems worshiped like household gods, they take many shapes, this particular one takes the form of a cluster of rats. Dhéonomists are the priests that summon the Dhé, and that actually is precisely what happens in the prologue. No way for you to know if you haven't read it.

On 2/19/2017 at 9:41 AM, Robinski said:

Hey Eagle, looking forward to reading this a seeing things move forward, I hope  

 

• “He squatted to get a better look at the body” – Does his gammy leg permit this? How will he get up again? I have dodgy knees and I would prefer not to do this, but I don’t need a stick.

  Maybe "crouched" would be a better word?

• “He looked between her breasts – briefly, for propriety’s sake.” – This line threw me at first, I felt like it read that he looked between her breasts because propriety required it!! I think I kind of blanked the dash, which makes all the difference, of course, actually, I think the comma may be an issue too. But anyway, he’s a policeman, so propriety should have nothing to do with it. Going around being polite is going to hamper his detection skills.

  Polite wasn't really the meaning of propriety I was going for. Modesty? Decency?

• I like to see the early link to the Fury Priest, on the basis that I think you said this is now the next thing after the prologue.

  It is indeed.

• “Let him keep his innocence for now, the job will rid him of it soon enough” – nice bit of hard-bitten cynicism, I like it.

  Thanks.

• “a minor temple in Shell Town” – if this is part of the town’s name, it should be capitalised, imho.
• “throughout the Shelltown” – Okay, the syntax of the town’s name officially is bugging me now. But then later I see that I think the first one is just a typo – overreaction!! Sorry

  Yeah, I can't consistently decide how to write it yet: "Shelltown", "Shell Town", "shelltown" (no capital since it's basically like "suburbs")... Sorry about that.

• “possible motive for their killings was simply that they were Dhé-ists. Prob had always found that catching a murderer who chose random victims” – But they’re not random, they’re all Dhe-ists, how can that be random? It seems like a pretty clear flag. If 1-in-100 people in the city were Dhe-ists, and the killings truly were random, then there’s a 1% chance that the first victim will be a Dhe-ist, but the chances of all 3 randomly being Dhe-ists is 1% x 1% x 1%, which is one-in-a-million, if I remember my statistics correctly.

  I meant random as in "no personal connection". I'll reword this.

• “Did you find any clues this time” – This sounded weird to me. I can’t believe that real police officers and detectives talk about ‘clues’, it seems rather ‘Famous Five’ / Harry Potter, as in a term that a younger audience would understand.

  Would "leads" work better?

• “I wouldn’t trust not to try pissing upwind” – I feel this is off. The point about pissing upwind is that your trousers get wet. Prob’s comment is, I think, intended in the form ‘I wouldn’t trust a junior to do something that is easy, but pissing upwind is hard. So, I’m thinking the logic would be for him to say, ‘I wouldn’t trust a junior to piss downwind’ – I think.

  I think I see your point. It's frustrating that things can so often be interpreted in exactly opposite ways.
  My reasoning was: if you piss upwind you'll hit your own legs => don't piss upwind, piss downwind instead => people who try pissing upwind ignore common sense, i.e. are morons

• “the praefect stated with a nod for emphasis and walked away” – You don’t need to say this, it’s obvious. Let the reader work out these little details themselves, imho.

  Gotcha.

• “it was only 7 seven levels down to Crin’ shop” – There’s a time for numerals in text, but not as a general number like this as part of the narrative. If it was part of the title of the place, like ‘Here we are on Level 7,’ them fine. But not like this.

  Already fixed this.

• “Were those Dhé chasing him?” – What? Were what Dhe? As a reader, I didn’t see any signs to think anything was chasing him.

  This is the first indication of it, Pro having just looked around and seen the Dhé.

• “took a bowl of off a shelf” – typo.

  Okay.

• I like the description and the idea around Prob patronising the barber’s shop. I like the description of the shop using smell, and I like the comfortable, companionable feeling that you conveyed to me from Prob walking into the place and what he sensed and felt.

  Thanks.

• “from the lather Crin preferred” – I'm no expert on shaving (having a beard), but I feel that it’s the soap that he uses. It’s not like the lather comes out of the packet as lather, so I feel it would be the soap that Crin preferred.

  I'd rather not use the word soap, since it's too non-specific. I might have to ask next time I get my hair cut.

• “being chased by packs of paper rats” – Why didn’t we get to see these on the first encounter on the ramp?

  You did, those are the Dhé. Probitus can now only now identify them as looking like rats.

• “I’m senior quaestor Sen and you seem to be in some sort of trouble” – This was going to be my main gripe which I was going to save to the end, but this line really calls it out for me. I find some of the dialogue unconvincing, I feel that it’s too straightforward, simplistic if you like, in some places. It’s just something about the phrasing, but I really think it needs to be worked over, unless your audience is Young Adult (which I think means 12 to 18).

  Rework added to to-do list.

• “to the sound of Clup’s curses, whose trousers had dropped to his ankles” – I feel that the grammar is off here, the phrase order, I think. Again however, this kind of slapstick comedy makes me question the tone of the piece that I'm reading.

  I'm already gonna have him fall on his face later on from having his laces tied together and I didn't want to repeat myself. I'll try to come up with something less juvenile.

I'm not going to try a summate all that, but will go for overall impressions instead. I enjoyed the general flow of the chapter, notwithstanding the issues that I had, and I think you are right that this will sit well coming before Laur’s introduction, and make her chapter more relatable. The reader knows that there’s a gruff cop in the story, so I think would be less worried that Laur was going to dominate. It might also take the edge off the male chr, who was pestering Laur, whose name I forget.

Good stuff, I’m looking forward to getting past all the introductions and seeing some detection.

Thanks.

<R>