hoser

This thing is just so mysterious, it's fun to just ask questions about it. So if Shallan draws one of the faces, does it get stuck with that one? If someone sincerely but incorrectly writes the time down as 7:47, does it start to come up later? Does it average all the recorded times? If they move the pedestals for the hands, do they start to move around? Where are the faces from? Are they the people in the crowd? Are they the most protective people on the continent? Where does the energy go from all the drained people?

Good question. In the Prelude, there is this passage in Kalak's point of view: So the Heralds think they are immortal. It seems like something that could be a residuum of the Oathpact, a portion of Honor's power or both. The kendra seemed to be immortal also. The presumed Shalash doesn't fit the racial types on Roshar, so I guess that they were picked before mankind went to Roshar. I don't have the quote now but Dalinar makes a reference to "Proving Day". I think this must have been a contest or demonstration where the Heralds were chosen or announced. That's all I've got. What else do we know about them?

I've been looking forward to seeing how Brandon will handle Szeth attempting (and presumably failing) to assassinate Dalinar as well. Szeth has orders to do it "quickly" and "brutally". The "brutally", I assume to mean publicly and with as much collateral damage as possible. The public aspect allows one to assemble whatever tag team is required to fight him. Kaladin is now the head of Dalinar's bodyguards. He has quite a few assets, if he can put them together. Abilities: He uses stormlight MUCH more effectively than Szeth* He uses his abilities unconsciously and he will have been training and learning more about them. Invisible spy (Syl) He can suck up the stormlight that Szeth needs to keep going Intelligence He knows how infusing works and the meaning of a glowing assassin He has seen Szeth in action (the highstorm dream) With all the assassinations that Szeth has performed lately, Kaladin should be anticipating an attack With his new position, he should be briefed on the other Shin "Assassin in White" exploits Szeth's assets are well known, but he has weaknesses also: He cannot take his own life or give up his blade: what if he has to choose between them? He voluntarily committed the crime that brought on this punishment to damage the Voidbringers somehow. He would presumably treat stopping the Voidbringers as a higher calling again. He hates what he is doing and is somewhat insane. He accepts his punishment to avoid annihilation. What if he thought he would be annihilated anyway, or could avoid it otherwise? I used to think that one couldn't imprison a Shardblade holder, but as we've seen with Elhokar, if you can control their hands the blade becomes useless. If Kaladin can limit the available stormlight, Adolin might be able to hold off Szeth long enough to run him empty. Kaladin might have learned some new tricks that might impede Szeth, who won't be expecting to meet a real budding Windrunner. Without stormlight, Szeth would be effectively stranded, Adolin might be more than a match for Szeth. Given a choice of dying or giving up the Blade, Szeth would be forced to violate the terms of his punishment and might crack. If Taln the Herald is present, I can't even imagine the unleashed awesomeness that he would bring without even considering what effect a Herald would have on poor Szeth's psyche. Jasnah might also have some more surprises up her safehand. I can't wait to see the epic battle that Brandon will provide us. * Szeth vs Kaladin using stormlight Szeth's ability to hold stormlight is described on in the prologue: Kaladin's ability, even before his second oath power-up, is much greater as described in chapter 59:

Go right ahead. I'd be honored. Assuming that you are referring to the ketek. Otherwise, ... never mind.

Thanks. It was fun. I kind of multi-tasking mulled over it for about 15 minutes, then decided it might work. Being able to change the verb forms was key, but I might have cheated on the hyphenation. I wanted to go somewhere creative that built on what we were doing.

Spirit yeilds severing sword, Voidus sword-severs, yeilding spirit.

Perfect for someone named Voidus. Maybe we have a Voidbringer .

I agree completely, I have not refuted your fundamental theory. As I understand it, you claim that the parshendi are voidbringers and their carapace is used in making Shardplate. I theorize, but cannot prove, that some combination of Radiant, Honor, spren, metal and gem is used to create Shardplate. Carapace could also be used, or even converted to metal, and we could be violently agreeing. Your theory is much more interesting than my loony parshendi theory, which is that they are native to Roshar and the carapace is an adaptation to the highstorms. The parshmen could be from Shinovar, but I can't explain their passivity. I believe that Brandon does tell us some of how Shardplate works. In chapter 26, Dalinar is armoring up: It seems uncoincidental (probably not a real word) that the windrunner ability "cling to rock" is paired with the windrunner gems (sapphires). This conceivably could support a connection between the Radiant abilities and the Shardplate that Windrunner suggests. Anyway, I look forward to learning more from your theorizing, until the next book comes out and I learn that most of my theories are wrong. Then we can start again with new mysteries.

Hmm, interesting. I appreciate your openness to my disagreeing post. I don't accept your disproof in this instance, as I believe the prologue follows the formation of the Radiants. I understand the timeline to include: Desolations + heralds Nohadon vision formation of radiants creation of Urithiru Nohadon creates way of kings Desolations + heralds + radiants (includes Midnight Essence vision) prologue vision = Aharietam = supposed Last Desolation = 9 heralds walk away from oathpact Evidence That the prologue follows the formation of the Radiants quoted from the prologue: I have other arguments for believing that the Radiants existed before the prologue, but don't want to waste anybody's time if this is already convincing. Am I missing something? What do people think? Interestingly, in the prologue there is "Blood mixed. Red. Violet. Orange. Though none of the bodies around him stirred, an indistinct haze of sounds hung in the air. Moans of pain, cries of grief." The orange blood could be parshendi, although I am not sure that the parshendi are the only beings on the planet with orange blood. If there was quiet singing amongst the moans of pain, that might suggest that the parshendi had fought with the heralds, since the heralds, radiants and allies would have likely finished off any enemy before cleaning up the battlefield. The lack of singing suggests, but doesn't prove, to me that the parshendi fought with the forces of Odium. I am not convinced which side the parshendi will end up on. I definitely think Brandon will lead us a merry chase on this one. I found some evidence on the question of whether Shardplate is metal. In chapter 52, the Recreance vision, when the Radiants are removing the Shardplate: This description is from Dalinar's viewpoint, who would know whether Shardplate is metal. In chapter 58, when Adolin is dueling and Dalinar is quoting the way of kings, Adolin's opponent's In chapter 13, fighting the chasmfiend: I hope this helps. Edited: Added chapter 13 quote.

Welcome anthonydraco, and thank you for an interesting theory. The parshendi are a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma (apologies to W. Churchill). The Voidbringers are not much more clear. Unfortunately for me, I have trouble with some aspects of the theory. The Voidbringers are said to consume, be accompanied by the screams of those they have consumed, possess people, make music when they kill and be marked with ash and fire. The parshendi jumping ability is explained by their musclature and they only meet the last two attributes. As you point out, however, they can change. Their intricate weapons are decorated with images of the heralds, their shardbearer talks to Dalinar when he could have easily killed him and their behavior seems honorable in some ways. Overall, they seem as half-hearted about the war as the Alethi, indicating either a similarly incoherent political situation or some strange testing relationship. None of these seem to fit for Voidbringers, who I imagine as ruthless and ravening, like the Midnight Essence. If the Voidbringers have the ability to possess creatures, I can easily see them taking over chasmfiends and desolating away, but that doesn't make chasmfiends Voidbringers. The biggest problem for me is that many Desolations are fought off before the Radiants are formed: no Shardblades or Shardplate. Radiants show up: Shardblades and Shardplate. So, fighting off or killing Voidbringers, even with a Herald wielding an Honorblade, does not get you Shardblades and plate. My conclusion is that the Radiants, as they advanced in their training, figured out how to take advantage of Honor's existence and the relationship with the spren to create the Shards. Why they didn't share their knowledge is definitely an interesting question. As I understand the timeline, the Radiants were formed during Nohadon's lifetime, and after the desolation. The Heralds would have departed immediately following the Desolation, so they couldn't have given the Radiants the shards, as the Radiants weren't formed at the time of Dalinar's vision. (of course, my working assumption is that the visions are reliable. Without that, I know nothing.) What do you think?

Spanreeds, which could relate to a communication ability or action at a distance (telekinesis?).

I am with Telcontar on this point. I believe that the amber woman knight was using the fabrial for Regrowth. I believe an analysis of the Midnight Essence vision reveals more abilities. The way the woman shows up could be travel, but travel might be done with a fabrial, rather than an inherent Stonewarden ability. How do they know that the midnight essence is there? The knights must have a detection ability of some sort. Syl also detects the proximity of the people on the Shattered plains. There is a fabrial in the Shinovar interlude that does detection. I think Brandon is laying out Chekhovian guns. The knights could be doing detection with a fabrial, of course, but I think it is an ability of some knights (but I don't know the order). There is also a point in that vision where one of the knights seems to pause, then quotes another knight who is clearly not present. I think this is communication. Communication could be done via fabrial or an inherent ability of the fully powered plate, but it could also be a surgebinding ability peculiar to two orders and further shared via fabrial. A possibility to consider is also the "binding" part of surgebinding. Syl the honorspren binds, which may be part of the intent of Honor. Gravity and pressure surges operate by binding things. One could argue that teleportation binds someone to a different place. Transformation/soulcasting actually works by "binding" the person to Shadesmar. It may be possible to look at all the surges that the radiants use as bindings of various types, which may help suss them out. Dustbringing produces smoke, which naturally leads to thinking of fire. But someone pointed out to me that smoke would also result from the explosions you could get from loosening molecular bonds. On reflection, dustbringers seems like an odd name for people who produce fire. In addition, Jasnah can already transform things to flame, so I am inclined to think that dustbringing must be something else. And in chapter 59, it is suggested that KR could: The melting could be transformation (without touch?) or dustbringing or something else entirely. The travel is obvious by now. Is "command the sunlight" another possible surge (akin to lightweaving, maybe)? Hope this helps (apologies for the length).

Yes! Upvoted. In further support of the importance of the secondary ideal there is the example of Kaladin in the tower battle. Despite being unknown and culturally unfit to lead (darkeyed), Brandon has Kaladin take over Dalinar's army and order Dalinar and Adolin around. I interpret this as Brandon clearly showing the importance and strength of Kaladin's leadership. Also on the ideals, I believe each order has the Life before death general ideal and 4 others. I think it fits with Connerjade's idea that the synergistic ideal could also be the third ideal. Nohadon's book supposedly has 40 sections where he relates learnings from his walk. The section that Dalinar recites to Elhokar and Sadeas is clearly the one that introduces the general ideal. Ten orders times four more ideals gives 40 more ideals. What a coincidence that he has 40 stories, possibly one for each of the Radiant ideals. We are even given one of the stories (the candles). We might be able to figure out the radiant ideal contained therein. It even seems likely to be a windrunner ideal about protecting and/or leadership.

Excellent! Upvoted. A new theory, I will add it to the OP. Thanks.

Yeah, where did the radiants go? Could they be the dawn chanters? Are their descendants chilling in Urithiru? Did they find a way to travel through time to when they would be needed? Hurry up and write, Brandon! The following quote makes me (and others, not my idea) think that the sword is not what Szeth is being punished for, but rather part of his punishment. Taralongnameian says (paperback p1218 chapter 71) " And Szeth later responds, I share your interest in what Szeth did to earn his punishment. I even imagine that it will turn out to be quite honorable, though forbidden by Stone Shamanism. I think the sword is Jezrien's Honorblade and gives Szeth his windrunner abilities. For completeness of a sort, the Szeth quote that Windrunner has referenced elsewhere (from the Prologue, paperback p13): I interpret this as suggesting that what he is being punished for relates to the existence of the Voidbringers. Somehow he has done something that will help avert or harm the Voidbringers. It was an incredible sin according to Stone Shamanism which denies the existence of the Voidbringers, hence the punishment of bearing the sword and becoming Truthless. Edited: clarify wording, add prologue quote and interpretation.

Interesting epigraph. I don't understand it at all. The most interesting word for me is "dens". Who or what is social, intelligent and aggressive that lives in dens? Don't animals mostly live in dens? Otherwise, the situation could fit for when humans first came to Roshar. The natives (parshmen, parshendi?) could have been displaced. The burning that they once did could have been during the expulsion from the Tranquiline Halls. I suppose midnight essence could live in dens, but I can't imagine them farming. If we find out that the parshendi call where they live dens, that would be interesting. Their weapons may depict the heralds, and they could be the remnants of the 5th Vorin kingdom that Shallan was surprised to learn about, in which case, they probably did burn at some point. But who have they attacked and displaced? None of these possibilities seem like a good fit for me, so I throw these ideas out to maybe stimulate some intelligent thought from smarter readers than I. I'll look for references to "dens" in book 2.

Odium sounds completely awful to me too. I don't know that we won't find some redeeming value, or at least necessity for Odium before we are done. Admittedly, the intent sounds generally horrible. Just as with Ruin, I can imagine Brandon having created a rationale for Odium. I believe that the two aspects of Odium that have been revealed are antipathy=hate and consumption. Could it be argued that degrees of attraction and antipathy are necessary for judgement and decision? Would then the essence of antipathy, Odium be a part of a healthy whole? Could consumption serve to release/relieve/recycle things? The following quote from the epigraph of chapter 67 hints to me of some utility to Odium: If Dai-Gonarthis is voidish, as the oblivion Dai-Gonarthis brings seems welcome to the one being quoted, then it seems that at least some welcome a portion of what Odium brings.

I don't have a strong opinion about his order. The eighth order, Kak/Resolute, does seem to fit pretty well. The following quote seems of interest in that question (Chapter 69, paperback p1203): To me, training troops would fit well with the secondary attribute of that order: Builder.

Telcontar, Your interpretation may well be correct. I am afraid that in a long and winding post I was not clear. What I was trying to say was that since Kaladin has been leading and protecting, when Syl binds to him, of her many powers his Windrunner actions allow him to harness Windrunner abilities. Perhaps Shallan has been particularly creative and honest, so when the Nahel bond forms with the symbolspren, from it's many abilities, her Shash-order actions grant her access to Shadesmar. In Shadesmar, her interactions are directly with the goblet, and the stormlight induces it to change. In other words, I am hypothesizing that both the symbolheads and Syl have access to Shadesmar and can manipulate pressure and gravity. The difference in the abilities gained lies in the actions taken by the bondee. A minor point is that, as I recall it, Syl realizes that she is not a windspren. I am also saying that all the symbol/truth/Shallanspren does is grant access to Shadesmar and possibly help the stormlight go from gem to goblet. Anybody with access to Shadesmar can interact similarly. The spren is not transforming things. from chapter 57 paperback p 992 Hope this helps

Thanks, Zas. Since reading in the Urithiru thread about your theory, I've been looking forward to it. I had a thought about spren that fit with what was happening in the U thread, but really didn't have anything to do with U. Anyway this does touch on one aspect of your theory, so I'll hope it fits here. I've been thinking about the honorspren problem. The honorspren problem is that, in world, there are only references to one type of honorspren and the spren Shallan and Kaladin (both presumably on the path to radiance) experience seem quite different. Look at the following "facts" together (please help me correct these facts, I want to fill in quotes later, too). Nohadon refers to honorspren (quote in OP) Syl refers to herself as an honorspren (quote below) Syl often appears as an attractive young woman Syl apparently gives Kaladin the ability to infuse stormlight and to manipulate gravity and pressure (and maybe windriding) (quote in OP) Syl starts by playing tricks on Kaladin, then asking Kaladin about himself, then becomes a sort of companion/sidekick Syl is attracted to Kaladin by his actions (there is also a Brandon quote that I'll try to dig up) the spren that Shallan (in her drawings) and Elhokar (in the mirror) see appear alien, inhuman and frightening, with symbolheads the Shallanspren ask her for truths about herself (quote in OP) the Shallanspren allow her access to Shadesmar (which allows her to soulcast/tramsform) Shallan's other magical ability may relate to her drawings and "mental snapshots" Jasnah can also transform things, presumably using a spren, and recognizes Shallanspren I see three theories about these spren: these are all honorspren the Shallanspren are truthspren, which are not honorspren honorspren is a generic term and the Shallanspren/truthspren are a specialized form of honorspren (truthspren honorspren) and Syl is an honorspren honorspren I believe that the Nahel bond acts by giving spren human cognition and humans get spren abilities. But Kaladin only gets some abilities. For example, Syl can change her appearance and detect people at a distance, but Kaladin shows no abilities in those areas. It occurs to me that these apparent differences between the spren can be reconciled. I would like to therefore propose the Only Honorspren Hypothesis in the hope that it contributes to our discussions. Only Honorspren Hypothesis: the radiants bond with only one type of spren, the honorspren. But the truthspren ask Shallan for truths, and give her different abilities. The difference could follow from the one thing we know to be different. Shallan has acted differently than Kaladin. I propose that the particular spren abilities honorspren provide depend on the Nahel bondee's actions. It may also be that the way the bond forms is different depending on the bondee's actions (hence the truthspren's need for truths). The future radiant acts honorably in one of ten different flavors. An honorspren is attracted and starts stalking them and providing some ability. The honorspren needs to know and understand the bondee for the bond and the abilities to strengthen. The particular abilities provided are dependent on the actions of the bondee. Oaths follow. ??? Profit! Just as the variable flamespren are bound by a measurement, the variable honorspren provide abilities that are bound to the measure of the bondee. A beauty of this hypothesis is that it is easily tested. If Jasnah names the spren that she or Shallan experience as truthspren (or similar), that will be evidence. If Shallan draws Syl as a symbolhead or not, that could be proof. What Rock sees when he spends time with Shallan, Jasnah and maybe Dalinar may be evidence. What do y'all think? Quotes: Chapter 67, paperback p1139

How do you know that Dalinar hasn't attracted an Honorspren? These people are trained from birth to ignore spren. Syl starts messing with Kaladin in the army. He doesn't start paying attention to her until he has been a slave for a long time. When he does start noticing her, his first thoughts are about how anybody can catch a spren and he should ignore her until she goes away. Spren are pointless, annoying nuisances to most of the people of Roshar, somewhat like a cold*. I believe that there is a spren involved with Dalinar that manifests in his revulsion and thoughts that he doesn't recognize as being his own. Jasnah seems to understand the role of the spren. It will be interesting to see what happens when they get together. Cheers *supporting quote from chapter 2, p55:

Welcome! If I can say that as a newcomer myself. I think your theory is probably brilliant, but I don't really understand it. I have a thought that relates and I hope will contribute to the discussion. I read somewhere around here that spren are related to the spiritual realm. This makes sense to me. They are barely physical (maybe doing lightweaving?) and barely cognitive. Syl doesn't have self awareness or remember until she starts to form the Nahel bond with Kaladin. With the bond, she becomes more cognitive (resembling Kaladin) and he becomes able to do spren things like absorb stormlight, manipulate gravity and pressure (spiritual?). She is initially attracted by Kaladin's actions, which are presumably spiritually significant and where he binds himself to various people. I agree that the spren are tightly tied with the stormlight, which is apparent from the way they ride the storms, they are absent from Shinovar and, when trapped in fabrials, do magic using stormlight. I am not sure how that relates to your theory, but it seems sort of sideways to it. Thanks for your thoughts!

I really like this elemental concept. I would like to add a few thoughts to this brew. There are ten Heralds, ten Unmade, ten Deaths and ten orders of Knight Radiant. All the Heralds seem to have actively fought. We have only seen two orders of the Radiants in action. The Windrunners and Stonewards both seem quite knightly (except no horses), fighting actively and apparently in concert. I wonder why we have only seen those two. I wonder if there are some surprises in the way the remaining orders discharge their duty. Maybe some orders are not as martial, studying, creating fabrials, healing, operating Oathgates and the like. Do all the orders have Shardblades and Shardplate? Are there other orders that operate in specific pairings or even groups of three orders? Coincidentally, we only see the operations of two forms of unmade. Maybe they are the most obvious. If the blightwind were to summon wind elementals, what evidence would there be after they were fought off? Are the operations of some of the Unmade's elemental minions also more subtle and indirect? Basic elements are animated to create the ten deaths. The animation could conceivably be done by establishing a connection to the spiritual realm for the rock or smoke. The original role of the Shardblades makes sense then. Presumably they operate by severing the connection to the spiritual realm in beings that are part spirit. Once the body is no longer linked to the spiritual realm, they cut through the material realm aspects. Perhaps the smoking eyes and death are the effect of the dissipation of the spirit connection. Do the eyes burn because they are eyes? Because they are the only nerves that we see on the outside of the body? Are eyes or nerves special to the connection to the spiritual realm? What happens to the brains and spines of those Shardbladed? The blades might have always worked this way, rather than being somehow corrupted by Odium. The Radiants may have just been disciplined about how they were used. What were the Radiants thinking when they handed them over, rather than hiding or destroying them? Surely they could anticipate the mayhem that ensued. Maybe they knew that there would eventually be another desolation, and the blades would be needed. So many questions ... Voidish, voidbringers, unmade, consuming, champions of hatred? These effects must be obvious. Is it like the currupted wind in the Ways in the Wheel of Time series? Some sort of wraiths, perhaps? A diminished connection to the physical realm? Why would Odium do that to his servants? Does he hate them too? Yet the thunderclasts and midnight essences are apparently made, more substantial and formed than their inchoate elements. The damage from the midnight essences seems normal, rather than somehow weirdly enervating. Actually, the heralds are unmade in many ways. They seem to dematerialize somehow between desolations. Their spirits, teamwork, nobility and purpose are apparently abandoned. Sometime it seems as if the thousand odd action- and detail-packed pages were nearly empty. I know nothing.

Hey, you got many responses in a few days. What you're doing is meaningful. Good work! I'm not sure about the last part. Abandoning one, en masse, could seem less honorable than being the only one to slink off. But that is not my real point. I'm convinced that there is more to that scene than Kalak knows. What exactly is going on, I don't know. But I feel strongly that there are wheels turning somewhere. I also think that the king of the heralds has more to give. All these links between Jezrien and storms are going to be fleshed out before the end also. Anyway, thanks for a very stimulating post. I look forward to seeing more of your thoughts.

Waaaa-Hey! Great post! Upvoted! So many ideas. I'll just try to add a few thoughts. I wonder whether specific ideas might want their own threads. I struggle with the idea that Dawnshards=Heraldblades. Heraldblades have undescribed powers, but are supposedly greater than Shardblades. One possibility is that they convey the powers of a Radiant of a particular order, in which case I wonder about the blade that Szeth carries and the source of his Windrunner abilities. The blade does turn his eyes blue, the windrunner color. Is he carrying Jezrien's Heraldblade? I agree that they are tied to the Oathpact, as abandoning the blades seems to be essential in the Heralds truancy. We see the prelude situation from Kalak's point of view. Jezrien convinces him to walk away, abandoning his blade. I believe that there is more to this scene than Kalak knows. What is Jezrien up to? The desolation has been unusually difficult, but miraculously, only one death. Have the heralds met and decided to quit? Or did Jezrien meet each of them as they returned to the rendez-vous, and convince them not to continue? Did Odium try to avoid killing the heralds, so they could quit? Did Jezrien have an understanding with Taln about being the only one to die? Has Jezrien decided that the Oathpact/Desolation cycle is not the best way to fight Odium? Did he continue the fight without his sword? Could Jezrien be the voice and face in the storms that Kaladin experiences? The thing I love about chasmfiend pupates into thunderclast is that it answers the question: what do Chasmfiends become? Butterflies pupate into a form that can reproduce. How do chasmfiends reproduce? I see no mention of chasmfiend eggs. Another possibility for thunderclasts (which seem to be of Odium) is that there is one of the ten Unmade (fools?) who inspires thunderclasts, like Re-Shephir (operating from memory) inspires Midnight Essences. I deeply mistrust the ideas that thunderclasts come from chasmfiends and that Parshendi are voidbringers because this is only book one and they seem too obvious. I think Brandon has more surprises in store on these issues. Anyway, on with your regularly scheduled speculation ... EDITED: hide cosmere spoiler, clarify syntax