hoser

Hi vikorr, thank you for the gracious acceptance of my disputaciousness. Upvote! It certainly seems that the Radiants would have consulted the Heraqlds during the initial desolations. It seems quite possible to me that the Radiants would have taken direction from the Heralds during Desolations. You made the case very well for the Radiants having been around during multiple Desolations. I still have trouble seeing the Silver Kingdoms running under stewards between desolations, but if their kings took direction from the Heralds during desolations, the difference could be largely semantic. We seem to agree that Honor was involved in forming the Heralds, while disagreeing about the role of the Heralds in that. So, really, we seem to be agreeing on more than we disagree. Thanks for the interesting exchange.

I'm guessing, they either grow their gemhearts or attract the special spren that allow them to grow so big while pupating. Yeah, they could pupate to molt, but that doesn't seem that interesting. In insects, pupation is associated with transformation. Insects and crabs that molt don't do a whole pupation.

As for being the Creator, it seems to me that he could have been saying that he created mankind in conjunction w/Cultivation and that people considered him the Creator. It wouldn't have been totally a lie, although less clear than we would prefer. Nohadon's role seems too great for a mere mortal. Without any evidence to support it, I can create theories. Honor (or H+C) could have set up the surges, Honorblades and the Heralds on the Tranquilline Halls. When Odium chased them to Roshar, they invested in the planet and the spren bonded to the surgebinders using the pattern for the Heralds. Honor or Nohadon using some of Honor's power could have set up the oaths. Honor or the spren copying the Herald pattern could have helped create the Radiantblades. The Shardplate could have been set up by Honor, the spren or both together. There are ways to make this work. Gods are overpowered and make for boring stories. Nohadon could have led a group of people who merely discovered the system Honor set up. Honor might have been contrained by the Oathpact not to tell people how it worked or they might have had to discover it by right actions like Kaladin did in order for it to be effective (but why write the book? To tell non-Radiants how to behave?). There is no evidence I can really offer in this forum to support any particular interpretation. My current working theory for the Heralds is that Honor lost the struggle for the Tranquilline Halls and, in the process, the Heralds got hosed. They are broken and Honor thought when he made the visions that the best shot starts with the Radiants. I still hope that at least some of the Heralds get fixed, but can't offer support for the idea. I agree that it would have taken a significant investment of Shardic Power to create the ideals. As I see it, this could have been done by Honor before Nohadon, Nohadon using Honor's power (the Dawnshards epigraph and as you suggest) or Honor using Nohadon's ideas. The ideals could have been part of the Herald pattern, but maybe the oaths were not. It seems like the Heralds would have left after the desolation immediately preceding the Nohadon vision. The next time they showed up, there were Radiants. They might not have known about the oaths, or maybe the oaths didn't exist or there was really noone for them to tell. Or maybe the Heralds inscribed the Oaths into gems that Nohadon found. In any case, as we saw with Kaladin, nobody has to tell the budding Radiants the Oaths. When they advance in their commitment and the spren bond evolves, the oaths come to them. I know nothing, but it seems to me that Brandon has set it up so he can tell the story he wants. I'm okay with that .

In the Prelude Kalak says of Jezrien, "Though he hadn't worn a crown in centuries, his royal manner still lingered." It is the aftermath of a desolation, which is the only time the Heralds are present. He hasn't worn a crown in centuries, so it seems that he wasn't king during the desolation or before the current desolation. He is called king of the Heralds as he is their leader, but he is not a king. He was presumably a king before he became a Herald. The Heralds are not present, so I fail to see how they could rule. It makes no sense for them to be kings and there is no evidence in the text supporting this idea that I am aware of. The Radiants formed when the Heralds were not around and governed themselves between Desolations as we see from the Starfalls vision. They had effective leadership independent of the Heralds. Did they take orders from the Heralds, act independently, or coordinate as equals? I have no idea. But I am not going to assume one of these things just because it fits my theories. Given that we know that the Heralds (possibly excepting Taln) were some mixture of broken and insane, it might be best for Roshar if nobody relied on them too heavily. The ten Silver Kingdoms have kings. They meet in Urithiru, where they each have a throne because they are kings. There is an epigraph that refers to a grand temple for the Heralds, which is presumably also in Urithiru, because they are religious figures, the Heralds of the Almighty. Ten is a magical number on Roshar. The surgebinding systen has ten surges, where each of ten surgebinder types shares two surges. Presumably the Heralds have the powers corresponding with the relevant surgebinding order because that is how the Shard or Shards set it up. Nohadon could establish ten kingdoms just as easily as any other number after his time of the sword. It could have been a way of Honoring the almighty. The knights presumably teach the ideals of their orders. They also teach how to fight without being corrupted by violence (starfalls vision). Some of those they invite adopt the ideals and are adopted by spren, becoming surgebinders and hopefully Radiants. Those not adopted by spren become warriors that fight in conjunction with the Radiants (we see this in the Recreance vision when the former knights join other fighters). Urithiru was presumably abandoned between the Desolation that broke the Heralds and the Recreance, but I am aware of no evidence supporting the notion that it was coincidental with the Heralds quitting. Assuming a connection and then believing that the assumed connection supports a theory just seems circular to me. For all I know, the Radiants abandoned Urithiru when Honor was killed/splintered, but that is just a guess. You mention Jasnah as being more reliable than current mythology, but I am unclear about what specific words of hers you are applying credence to. And finally, if the Heralds are needed to rule the kingdoms and the Radiants, why does the Almighty ignore them in the visions that plead for the resurrection of the Radiants?

Without differentiating between Heralds and Honor, I am at a loss to address the theory. The Nohadon vision and an understanding of how little time the Heralds were present clearly points to the Heralds not founding and possibly not leading the Radiants. Clearly the Radiants had support from Honor to create the Radiantblades and Shardplate and oath-related powergains. I would even argue that Surgebinding is an Honor or Honor/Cultivation magic system. When we look at what the Heralds could do in isolation, their ruling and forming the Silver Kingdoms becomes hard for me to imagine. The Dalinar-era beliefs attribute much to the Heralds, but given the disrepute of the Radiants, I am inclined to think that the revelations of the visions are more accurate. My memory (supported by a review) has an initial 200 knights composing the "order of the Stonewards and a large number of Windrunners." Then more Windrunners fly in to make 300 total. If that makes all the Windrunners, then there are about 150 in each of those two orders, which could point to a number of approximately 1500 Radiants/Blades/Plate. I believe that there is word of Brandon that not all Radiants were armed, but it may well be that a preponderance of each order was. @Dros - I am afraid the intelligence offered by the quote you are looking for is not appropriate to this forum until 3/4. You may want to hide that part of your post. I will edit this section out in response.

At the bottom of my posts, I see "Report Edit Hide Multiquote Quote" (the last two are obvious buttons). Touching "Edit" allows editing. Touching "Hide" makes the post invisible, which you could then do to your last. Edit: deleted irrelevent quote

Welcome! Nice job with the quotes! Upvote! I do have a concern with the following: If we believe the Nohadon vision, the Radiants don't seem to exist at that point (although surgebinders do). The Desolation is over and the Heralds presumably gone. If Nohadon wrote tWoK and even walked to Urithiru, as he says in the recitation Dalinar did for Sadeas and Elhokar, then the Heralds were not around for the formation of the Radiants (this also assumes that the interval between desolations is longer than the rest of Nohadon's life. So, yes, someone would argue that the Heralds did not form the KR. There is a modern belief about that, but it would fit with the general disregard for the Radiants that the blessed heralds would be given the credit, whether true or not.

I apologize for my lack of clarity. When Nohadon had his "time of the sword", he used it to create an association of independent Kingdoms, which I imagine left the previous leadership structures largely in place. Gavilar and Dalinar defeated the highprinces ... and left them as highprinces. While there were undoubtedly bloody battles, the stakes were such that the losing side could surrender and chaos would not ensue. In some sense, it was the minimum of violence required to unify, and a limited unification. This seems very different to me than Mr. T's decapitation plan. Gavilar and Nohadon created associations of powerful leaders that retained a measure of authority and independence. They minimized the destruction necessary to achieve that end. They became, in a sense, the greatest of the greats. By contrast, Mr. T is destroying all effective leadership to become the last man standing among a set of nonentities. Who would then stand against him? How is he likely to treat dissent? Who else can add the brilliance of their leadership to his to create a greater whole? I agree that Mr. T is violent like the others. His violence seems to me to be directed differently and toward a very different end. While you decry the violence of the Alethi, the fact is that that they apparently respected each other and their neighbors unless attacked. Gavilar and Dalinar reestablished the kingdom while apparently leaving the highprinces in place. Mr. T is wreaking wanton unprovoked havoc worldwide. Of course, Mr. T is doing his best. As is Sadeas. As is Rayse. As is Dalinar, As was Shallan's father. As was Kabsal. "You did your best" is the consolation we offer children who have not succeeded. It justifies nothing.

Welcome! Let me recognize your arrival with an upvote! I do struggle with this analysis. In chapter 51, when Amaram is about to murder Kaladin's men and enslave Kaladin, he is talking as he enters. He says This is Amaram's inner circle and people who will not be in a position to reveal anything later. He is speaking as if his opposition is the Ghostbloods, which, if the Shardbearer was Nan Heleran, is probably true. If he thought Kaladin was a Radiant to be, I think he would have killed him or treated him better than he did. At that stage in Kaladin's development, he seemed noteworthy to his men, but he didn't obviously glow. To the brightlord whose horse had fallen on him and was about to be killed by a Shardbearer, he would likely not have noticed that his darkeye savior was moving a little bit too fast until after the Shardbearer was dead and then there would have been nothing to see.

I really like this theory and am upvoting it. It is so creative and clever that I can't help but smile. However, I think it is possible but unlikely. The things that leave me skeptical: Gaz is being blackmailed about something which could motivate someone into wanting to punish him, do him in or him bolting. Gaz had been paying off someone and was involved in the death of that person, leading to the same possibilities as above. I don't see that Skar would act that decisively without checking with Kaladin. I could see Moash doing it before Skar, if anyone, as he seems to rely on his own judgments more. If a bridgeman wanted to turn in the group and be rewarded, they could report to any guard, not just Gaz, and they all know it. While Gaz is referenced, Gaz's death doesn't really solve the problem, as I see it.

I am fond of saying that I know nothing, but I exaggerate, as I really know very little, and much of that is wrong. One thing I think I know is that, to reach conclusions, one must make assumptions. The conclusions are only as good as the assumptions (Garbage In, Garbage Out). No matter how smart a person or group is, they are liable to have erroneous assumptions based on cultural biases and the reality behind "There are more things in Brandon's cosmere, Taravangio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Roshar will only take one road, and the victors will write the history, so we will never know what would have happened if Mr. T had not chosen to be a mass murderer twice over. Rosharan history does seem to say that Nohadon's time of the sword followed by the Radiant Era was a better time for humanity than what preceeded it. This at least suggests that Mr. T's path is not the only workable one. While Mr. T may not end up being the new Alakavish, his means should be the last resort. This is a good point for me, as examining the quote we are given seems to point to many interesting possibilities. It is an in-cosmere quote, apparently, so it is potentially fallible, for one thing. What if the destruction is necessary for the redemption? From Sadeas's POV, Dalinar is destroying the Alethi. The one who may save the world may need to change it (and really, it would benefit from some changes), before they can save it. Change involves destruction, whether it be the apparently successful changes of Nohadon or the less certain changes that both Mr. T and Dalinar are implementing. Being the destroyer may involve some Sandersonian twists. Eveorjoy says the following: I suppose that "one" could be the same person, but it doesn't read that way. But my copy reads: Which I can read as the redeemer and the destroyer being the same person, as 18th Shard apparently did.

Under the orders of the Parshendi government Szeth kills many guards and finally the king. Each death is a unilateral and deliberate act of war initiated by the Parshendi. There is no rebel faction. They make no effort to communicate their concerns with their new ally before resorting to violence. The Parshendi could explain themselves at any time. They could deliver those responsible for Szeth's unjustified murders to the Alethi and attempt to negotiate a new understanding any day. All they have to do is send some people under a flag of truce. They never have. The quote you offer proves that the Alethi were more responsible than the Parshendi for attempting to understand. The Alethi sent "envoys and scholars". What did the Parshendi do? Murder innocents and not explain. Rebuff all efforts to communicate. Just because, in moments of private doubt, Dalinar wonders what would have happened if they had pursued peace more strongly, none of the onus for the war they started is removed from the Parshendi. Whether the Alethi are warlike or not and whether they have civil strife at home are irrelevant. The Parshendi started the war with an ally without even trying to negotiate or communicate. Gavilar had no idea that what he was doing would upset the Parshendi. The Alethi attempted to communicate before retaliating. The Parshendi failed to communicate and are repeating that choice every minute of the war. Dalinar may be warlike and he may describe himself as a warlord, but he is acting within his role as part of the Alethi government. He is highprince and will soon be Highprince for War. He has, and will be, performing his duties as an Alethi government officer.

This seems somewhere between harsh and backwards to me. The Alethi did peace and diplomacy w/the Parshendi. The Parshendi then murdered their king and many of their soldiers with an unprovoked and largely honorless betrayal. Everybody concerned, be they the bridgemen, Parshendi or Alethi seems to think that the war of retribution is justified. What would be the point of diplomacy? A treaty? We saw how that worked out. I think there will be an accommodation, but it would have been far better for all concerned if the Parshendi had tried to communicate rather than unilaterally breach the treaty and initiate violent action against the Alethis. Dalinar and Elhokar could have done more diplomatically, but given the situation, it seems inaccurate to accuse Dalinar of starting a war. He is changing the tactics in a war the Parshendi initiated.

And your second upvote (assuming no downvotes)! I believe Mr. T. is saying that because he wants to unite the world under his leadership and a united, effectively led Alethkar will get in the way of his ambitions. I don't know that he is operating from some omniscient knowledge of what needs to be done for ther good of the world. Given that Mr. T's modus operandi is to deprive the world of all effective leadership (brutally and increasing collateral damage, where possible) and consolidate power in the hands of an ancient, occasionally-feebleminded serial murderer with uncertain succession prospects, I really doubt the scope of his judgements.

When I consider what is going on with the Nahel bond, I see two complementary elements: The Nahel-bond spren, attracted by certain behaviors and the oaths that reinforce the behaviors. The spren-controlling measurements seem like they can only go so far. The additional power, the relationship of oaths and honor and the explosion of power Kaladin experiences when he expresses the second oath all point to an additional Shardic investment of magical power.

If they are only around for one Desolation, they have no Desolations to remember, so remembering Desolations would not be a very important duty. If we trust the Nohadon and Starfall visions, the Radiants seem to have done a remarkable job of addressing the problems Nohadon saw. In the Nohadon vision, pre-Radiants, Desolations are surprising, sometimes preceded by civil strife and wipe out nations and historical records. The Radiants seem to have set up ten stable Silver Kingdoms (minimize pre-Desolation strife), are predicting Desolations and keeping surgebinding in the hands of the honorable. Given the limited data we are working with, examining the duties and responsibilities of the Radiants seems like an excellent way to understand their history and seems to support the idea that they were around for multiple Desolations. The Way of Kings, along with the Dawnchant, only survived through the dedicated Vanrial community that I suspect was set up by the Radiants. The Way of Kings was clearly a Radiant-era work, so I struggle to see how it would support the idea that documents would survive pre-Radiant-era Desolations. I agree with the conclusion, but am not entirely convinced by the argument. Impressive memory, as the exact quote is: "Harkaylain says the desolation is close, and he is not often wrong. ..." She may be talking about Harkaykain's predictions in general, rather than his Desolation predictions. While possible, I am not aware of evidence supporting particularly long life for Radiants. If Desolations are surprising, I think they are less frequent than human lifetimes, which would mean that any given Radiant would not be in position to predict multiple proximate Desolations unless they had much longer lifetimes. On the question of how many Desolations the Radiants survived, given the general minimal evidence we are dealing with, reaching a definitive conclusion may not be possible. We have current-era myths that are known to be unreliable and the visions. If we accept the visions and extrapolate from the information presented, the Radiants were around for multiple Desolations. If the Radiants were around for only one Desolation, then, at a meta-level, wouldn't this book and the series be a huge practical joke? Wouldn't it just be describing, restoring and building upon a historical era that was actually an Odious trap? The argument for a single Desolation Radiant existence, if it has any support, seems to be based on the modern-era Rosharan beliefs, which, in turn, would seem to be tainted by the ardents motivations and the post-Recreance discrediting of the Radiants. A review of the relevant quotes in the WOT database turns up things like the description below (from here). I don't see the Radiants as a brief historical diversion given Brandon's description of the series.

I like this theory! Without any other evidence than the name "Old magic", I want to scaffold onto it. For it to be the "Old Magic", there should be a newer magic. The only magic that could be newer, as I see it, would be the surgebinders (I think the modern fabrials are too modern to change how the Nightwatcher's effects are named). So cultivation does her thing, maybe with more feeling, then the surgebinders come along, then the Radiants form, causing the boon/curse system to be the "old" magic along with the Heralds and the Desolations. The knights fit in with the Heralds and the Desolations, leaving the curse/boon setup without an obvious tie-in. Cultivation either enjoys it, is committed via investiture or gains some benefit I don't understand and keeps on doing it. Influencing Mr. T, Dalinar, Lift, potentially many others including Gavilar, she may be affecting events more than is apparent.

There are some things about this that might be a little awkward. If you believe these visions, then you know that the Almighty (your proposed god) is dead. It would be somewhat demoralizing. In addition, Vorinism reviles the Knights and these visions want them restored.

For your fundamental point, that the heralds wanted an excuse to justify their desertion, it doesn't really matter how many desolations the Radiants were around for. In the Starfall vision, it seems to be the runup to a desolation and the Radiants are known in rural Natanatan. I infer that they were around for at least one desolation previous to that, making at least two desolations. But really, I think they were around for more than two desolations, just from the description of the stable Silver Kingdoms.

FYI, no big deal and I personally don't care, but local custom prefers that we unify our posts and avoid double-posting. One can multi-quote to respond to multiple posts or edit the first post. So the current lighteyes are all descended from Radiants who didn't give up their blades? I'm just trying to understand. IIRC, in the previous version, Merin, who became Kaladin, took up the Shards and his life was too easy, so I don't think Amaram took them and made him a slave. He might even have saved Dalinar, not Amaram, but I am even less certain about that.

Some of this comes from reading the Nohadon interlude. I deduce or observe the following: The desolation is barely over, the Heralds are gone, there are no Radiants and Nohadon is lamenting that the Surgebinders are too unprincipled. The life of a normal human is shorter than the interval between desolations. Nohadon is wearing what became the Radiant Symbol. Urithiru and the Silver Kingdoms seem to have become established as the Radiants formed. Nohadon writes about walking to Urithiru Deduction: the Radiants were formed during Nohadon's lifetime after the desolation and the Heralds left. So maybe the Heralds didn't form the Radiants. When we see both Radiants and Heralds, they seem independent (including the opening scene with Heralds and Radiants). In modern times, people believe that the Heralds formed and led the Radiants, but beliefs may not match the historical reality. Jezrien may have been a king before he became a Herald, but I don't know about any other Herald kings. Since the Heralds are only present during desolations or when they go AWOL, I don't see them as kings before they desert. Hoping this is helpful ...

Not even a theory. Just a wild speculation. A fantasy, if you will. Kaladin had a problem with that specific blade, which had just been used to kill his men, not all Shardblades. Syl wouldn't like it, but if it was temporary, she might deal or at least we might learn what her problem is with them. It doesn't seem impossible to me, but it doesn't seem likely either. The important thing to me was Scrutiny's catch on the dueling thing. I feel sure that it will come up somehow. And thanks .

A minor point is that the OP quote is close, but not exactly right. It says "Memories attacked her. Nan Balat, bruised, his coat torn. A long, silvery sword in her hands, ...". While I know nothing, it could be that the plural "memories" is significant, and the sword in her hand was not simultaneous with the bruised Nan Balat. This thread has some overlapping discussion, if anyone is curious.

The one who got their Honorblade back was referred to as "He", so presumably not Shallash. Taln, with his presumed Honorblade in hand, has dark eyes. Baxil's mistress has light eyes. She could be lightweaving the light eyes, as she may have the same powerset as Shallan will have, but she could also have picked up an ex-Radiantblade along the way. I am not sure she wants her associates to know that she has a Shardblade, if indeed she does.

The fact that the Silver Kingdoms were stable is a pretty strong argument in favor of the Knights, as is the Starfalls interlude and Tanavast's approval. Pre-Nohadon, the Desolation was preceded by a large conflict with some surgebinder named Alakavish that made it worse and entire countries were wiped out. In the Radiant era, there were apparently 10 stable countries that didn't fight each other, protected by the Radiants. Welcome! Good catch! Upvote! Wildly speculating, Kaladin could borrow the King's Shards to fight Amaram. Adolin could help him practice and they might start to get along (after doing some unnecessary roughness). What Cortez said. Although, Kelek was surprised at the survival rate, so it may not have been "lucky", there might have been shananigans going on behind the scenes. Maybe Odium realized the Heralds were about to crack and increased their survival chances.