Amanuensis
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Ashbringer considered it. Striker considered it. Devotary considered it. JNV considered it. Kasimir considered it. I considered it. Illwei considered it. Half of these people aren't even voting you. Even more have defended the singular question reason, including a person voting for you (JNV). I can't really speak for others, but I just fundamentally disagree that your role makes more sense as a village role. It could be either. I'm more focused on the fact you think it's a village-sided role after Archer claimed Village epic. I don't think you're lying about your role, for the record. I just think its easier for an elim to tell half/whole truths in a situation like this. Especially when it's provable (via item passing) like you said. Not really pushing it. The bit you quoted is the only time I mentioned it. I did refute people saying you asked multiple questions and only got one PAFO, though, which you've now confirmed. Directly? No. Indirectly? Devotary and Striker for sure. Even JNV, to an extent, though I'm V-reading him anyway so not exactly relevant. Any vote on someone other than you is effectively a defense too. That all said, I kind of agree. Karnatheon. Care to join, Mat? Yeah, that's what led to me remember this train meme in the first place. This entire situation pretty much started because I opened my fat mouth about my Mat suspicions (runaway train weeeee). I'm not exactly happy about it, but I also think it's been useful discussion (given the number of players involved, one way or another).
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Null+ means a player hasn't done enough to earn a Village read, but has done something that leans towards Villager. Null- is the opposite of that. Basically, it's a way of further classifying reads so they're more accurate. Okay, that's fair. What about this part though?
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Hm. Back to Stick.
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ED1T: Despite memeing, not wholly proud of my part in this >>
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That's a fair take. I'm curious if, after you eat and wake up more, you could articulate why the vote gives you bad vibes. Also if anyone else stands out to you as elim in particular. I personally would be very surprised if there weren't a couple among the Twelve participants, for instance.
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Matrim's Dice (7): Araris Valerian, Ashbringer, Thaidakar the Ghostblood, _Stick_, JNV, Kasimir, Archer _Stick_ (5): Illwei, Matrim's Dice, StrikerEZ, Tani, Devotary of Spontaneity, Archer (1): Karnatheon 12/21 exe participation is pretty good for a D1, though it's not perfect. @Karnatheon, could I interest you in joining the fun? That leaves @Experience, @The Unknown Aon, @STINK, @Szeth_Pancakes, @MintSilverTea, @Dannnex, and Orlok as non-vote participants. Overall, I'm happier about the voters on Mat than the ones on Stick.
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Can it? The conversation: Archer: PAFOing all questions about Stick: I too have been bombarding TJ with questions. Matrim: So I'm the only one who asked a singular question that didn't get PAFO'd? ED1T: I guess that interpretation works if Mat read "PAFOs are definitely in there" as "PAFOing all questions," but I think it's fairly clear that's not what Stick said, and Mat's implication of doing it wrong means getting an answer = wrong. I'm also more inclined to believe elims would get PAFO'd less, though it's not a factor in how I'm reading this exchange. ED2T: ONE MORE THING I SWEAR. This was something I only realized until today and I think is worth pointing out. This game has combined Day/Night turns. Elim kill / actions will need to have been decided on today on top of dealing with the kayana thread activity. My original thought it was a factor in Mat's early defensiveness, which could be true. But I also wonder how much time the elims have been spending in doc strategizing versus in the thread disscussing.
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Okay, so despite changing my vote, I'm no less convinced of Mat's alignment. I've been ruminating on Mat's responses to my observations + Kas all morning, and even after sleeping (soft resetting my brain), I'm still unable to stop myself from hyperfocusing on him. In fact, a lot of the aforementioned responses only served to reinforce my tunnel. This is particularly annoying because I wanted to be more low effort in this game. Mostly because I didn't want to risk getting emotionally invested (which I fortunately haven't), and partly because I didn't want to be a driving force of discussion (which I unfortunately have). Whoever first said 'old habits die hard' was right, and it seems I can't turn off my instincts. I also probably love solving and helping exes grow too much. So here I go. I'm going to try articulating why I find it difficult to village read Mat, even while acknowledging that he gets D1'd a lot for playstyle reasons and that said playstyle could be impacting my read. Any self-doubts I have are ultimately overshadowed by what I genuinely find suspicious, irrespective of playstyle. Conclusion #1: Mat is an Epic, but not a Village one. Conclusion #2: I can no longer trust anything Mat says in this game. Conclusion #3: Mat has been using his own meta awareness to dictate his elim playstyle this game. Bonus Evidence: Final Thought: Matrim. I hope this will be the last big post I make this game (Sorry Orlok). ED1T: Matrim. Actually better to reserve my vote for now. (6) Mat to (5) Stick invites more opportunity for any would-be saviors to get involved. ED2T: Oh, and I might as well address the Dannnex thing since I've seen it brought up a couple times but was too focused on Mat to reply. These are his only posts. I initially found his opening ("blackouts are fun") as an indication that he's got some role (not a Regular) or is more aware of the game's distro (elim). At the time of me mentioning it, I wasn't against exeing a role intentionally (yay GM confirmed information), so for a D1 vote, it felt like a win-win. Lately, though, I dunno how I feel. I haven't noticed him viewing the game so I don't know if he's lurking or simply not engaged in the game. He was online 5 hours ago though, which makes me wonder: if blackouts are so fun, why isn't he participating? @Dannnex Oh! And I had a tinfoil theory for a while that Thaidakar, Dannnex, and Matrim were E/E/V or E/E/E based on the early game name mixup.
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Matrim's Dice (6): Araris Valerian, Ashbringer, Thaidakar the Ghostblood, _Stick_, JNV, Kasimir _Stick_ (6): Illwei, Matrim's Dice, StrikerEZ, Tani, Devotary of Spontaneity, Amanuensis Illwei (1): Archer Archer (1): Karnatheon Worth tying for more engagement.
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I really don't know if E!Stink would bother ISOing E!Mat when all I asked him for were thoughts (didn't even need to be that in-depth). Frankly, I read that whole ISO and his casual complaint that it wasn't even fun but filled time as extremely pure.
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Basically, I'm wondering if this claim matches up with his game intro. Like, look at this. JNV came up with a handful of questions regarding Mat's role, while Mat only mustered one. Considering this is a blackout game and that role is not exactly traditional, I find this surprising.
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Oh really? I'm not sure the claim makes me want to vote him less. A small part of me wants to more. Y'know, for science!
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Bigger post incoming after I finish waking up.
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Ah, whoops. I might not have finished the post then xD I only remember what I thought when reading that paragraph. Actually same. Goodnight everyone o/
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I'm glad you quoted this because I wanted to make a comment on the same paragraph, but forgot. @_Stick_ I'm very surprised how much you thought about this. If we assume Archer is an Elim claiming Village Epic, why would we assume anything he tells us about his role is accurate? In that scenario, it would make sense to fake claim a role that villagers would be wary of voting + a role that elims could believably "ignore" for more threatening ones. Something like a Medium, in fact, which could only be verified by an actual Medium, until enough turns go by without him providing evidence. Which again, is the same problem with an E!Epic claiming V!Epic in the first place. Fake claiming could have been a death sentence for E!Archer on two different fronts.
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I was trying to invite you into a conversation.
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Now y'all know how I felt waking up to Page 6 today
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On that note, I've got a general question for anyone regarding Mat. Does anyone know what games Mat was an elim who got votes D1 but didn't get exed? If so, were they fairly early in the turn, or near the end? In either case, were his reactions similar to how they've been in this game? Basically I'm wondering if he's less afraid when he knows allies could potentially save him.
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1: Yeah, I realized that, hence my wondering if this pattern would have pulled me into early suspicion of you too, had I not been an elim in that game. It does suggest your playstyle impacts others' perception of your slot (anon or not), though doesn't exactly confirm you're not an elim now. 2: While I don't want to say my reasons for considering Dannnex yet, I will say that I haven't ruled out you two being E/E. Nor have I ruled out that he could be E and you could be V. Sorry for any frustration that caused. To answer why, it's because I wanted to see how votes moved over a decent period of time without me giving reasons. If someone voting for you backed off when you got too far ahead, could be E/E. If someone else pushes for another candidate, or pushes against my furthering of the train, could suggest their an ally trying to save you. Also doesn't give elims a reason to vote you, too, if you are V. Plus I didn't want to point out the fact you have a role immediately, since it does play a large role in my wanting you dead I'm very open-minded, I assure you but I also like exuding confidence to bait reactions. If you did tell us, I would probably look at it thrice, then probably thrice more times if you're Village, you'd have no reason to lie, so I would seriously consider it. I cannot say for certain if it would effect my read of you, though. I know the feeling, friend, and am sorry for perpetuating the trend. I will say that I can be persuaded to vote elsewhere if I find a good enough reason to believe you're Village, but from my PoV I just don't know yet, and enough posts of yours have stuck out to me that I need to resolve your slot either way (via flip or discussion). Since I didn't ask this explicitly but wanted an answer, I will now. Why did Szeth's opening (potential tell) in Tani's game warrant action? Why did Szeth's opening in this game not warrant action? What's different? Definitely could be me splitting hairs (I'm pretty nitpicky), but I perceived a contradiction and had to address it. Ultimately what stood out to me was your defensive reaction, which lead to me trying to figure out where it's coming from. In lieu of bringing up v meta, I would recommend initiating a back-and-forth that makes the 'suser' explain their reasoning as much as possible, then attempt to meet them halfway / be willing to shrug it off if they can't be swayed. Yeah, the quotes were more to highlight you bringing up self meta a lot, rather than defending yourself. That's very likely. But also believe that what people say when they aren't thinking is more alignment indicative than what they say when they are thinking. It's how I decide if a post is coming from a Village mindset or an Eliminator one. I'm glad you appreciate it just like I appreciate this entire quote because it helps me understand your playstyle better. I hadn't realized that spewing whatever the heck you feel was a you thing rather than an alignment thing, and can see the possibility of Village!Epic!You pinging my Elim!Epic Detector for that reason. But I also fear that will be something I can only feel confident about in retrospect, should you truly flip Village. Would hate to find out later my Elim!Epic Detector wasn't faulty and I let you slip through the cracks Personally, if other people who know you better think I'm onto something and keep you in the lead, then I'd say go for it. In the event you're going to flip anyway, better to give us a few hours to consider that information. We still have a little under 24 hours left in this turn, though, so your life might not even be at risk.
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Nice. You noticed the things that I hoped you (tbh anyone) would. Observation #1: Matrim is not a Regular. Observation #2: Matrim's take on Szeth doesn't make sense with closer scrutiny. Observation #3: Matrim is aware they're a frequent D1 exe candidate and wants us all to know it. Observation #4: Matrim doesn't like Striker's vote on him for poor logic, but doesn't appear to suspect Striker for it + later reads Striker as Village. Observation #5: Mat is hyperaware of his own Villager and Eliminator meta. This post is already longer than I'd like and I haven't read Mat's new post yet, so I'll cut this here and tackle the new stuff in the next one. ED1T: Oh yeah, so basically I want people who know Mat to give their opinions on these observations. @Kasimir I acknowledge I could be tunneling and others know him better.
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Good morning. I'll try to get my post up before you do so you can respond
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I just tested in my GM PM as well. You can do [spoiler][quote]Test[/quote][/spoiler]
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I don't think it's weird, for the record Eager to hear your findings
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Cool. I'll wait for you to do yours first then. Curious if you'll notice the same things I did. Thank you. I'll properly respond to this when I'm ready to bring up my reasons.
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Currently debating if I should just share why I'm confidently reading Mat as an E!Epic. Was trying to avoid anyone sheeping me (muddies the info pool) + wanted to see how votes moved or accumulated after putting him in the lead with no explanation, but not a lot has come from it due to timezones and I'm kinda impatient. Also concerned I'm tunneling and just don't know enough about Mat to make a proper judgment, so getting thoughts on my reasoning from players more familiar with him would probably help. Wouldn't mind the validation either. The net info gain from not sharing it earlier probably isn't as significant as I initially believed, and I'd also hate to be wrong and for V!Mat to see me trying to kill him with no given explanation. Since ya'll are here: Kas, Stink. Thoughts on Mat?
