Aoibheann

I've been looking at this too. It seems like it's just an odd cultural quirk. I double checked Dalinar's Recreance vision, the male/female split was not by order (windrunners and stonewards were both). Brandon is also challenging the idea literacy = intelligence. It's not true. Many very intelligent people lived before the written word was as common as it is today, they created amazing works and were literate in different ways than our current culture values. All that said, do I find it odd? Yes. A part of me wants to cosplay a Vorin lighteyes just to see how limiting it really is. Will I roll up my sleeve after an hour, or can I go all day?

I agree that #3 is a great catch. Maybe it means that the "friend" is really a hallucination instead (at which point it doesn't matter which pocket it comes from, it's all Stephen's). I'll have to re-read.

Amaram couldn't remember who Kaladin was; much less his parents. Lirin mentioned leaving when he and Kaladin are in the carriage on the way to dinner with Roshone. Before dismissing the idea he says they could move to almost any Alethi town, or even Kholinar. Kharbranth is not mentioned. I get the idea Lirin thinks they have more than enough highly educated surgeons and physicians there.

I was not explicit in my post above. Apologies for any frustrations this may have caused. 1. I'm not arguing against the basic theory. I believe it, I proposed it. 2. Nohadon would be horrified to see the current state of Vorin teachings. 3. Language has changed. It is impossible to say Lord in modern Alethi without saying lighteyes. 4. Language impacts understandings of any pre-Recreance and pre-Hierocracy writings. Any translation is impacted especially any which touch on the ideas of nobility. (have you seen discussions of how the original writers meant the words of the Bible? It's hard to know what to think.) 5. People have a tendency to believe stories, reports & writings which confirm their previously held beliefs (confirmation bias). 6. Dalinar mentions WoK is not held in high esteem, precisely because it says things like "lighteyes are beneath darkeyes". 7. Modern Alethi translators can't get the meaning "Lords and Kings were to serve the populace." because those words don't exist therefore WoK is dismissed as crazy-talk. 8. This continues with other writings, contributing to the change/decline in Vorinism. Again, I'm sorry for any confusion. I was really excited by the connection between Sigzil's inability to say Lord and Dalinar's understanding of the WoK quote.

That's exactly what I mean. The end result is exactly opposite! Not because the theology was directly changed, but because the language changed/shifted and the words for Lords evolved into lighteyes. My translation above isn't possible due to the current language, thus Dalinar's interpretation in your quote. Sorry for the abbreviated response. I'm on my phone.

Sorry for the late reply. Quick note on chronology - I know I've seen or heard WoB that he generally writes chronologically unless otherwise noted (ie. flashbacks). The confrontation/meeting between Szeth and Mr. T occurs outside an interlude, it's in chapter 71: Recorded in Blood. We can assume that it's happening between or concurrently with chapters 70 (Sea of Glass) and 72 (Veristitalian), both focusing on Shallan and Jasnah. The boat which Jasnah has chartered will be coming tomorrow. Will Szeth ride with Jasnah and Shallan to the Shattered Plains?

@Hoser - You know, I'm reminded of this conversation between Kal and Sigzil (page 576, Kindle): add that to your quote above: We could end up with a translation along the lines of: "In other places, it outright said that Lords and Kings were to serve the populace." Perhaps it only contradicts Vorin teachings due to lingual shift?

I hadn't thought about how long Odium has been working on Roshar. I would guess he (Odium) has been there since at least the last desolation. I had assumed Odium was behind the torment of Heralds between desolations. Perhaps he took a break to visit Sel, contributing to the longer time between desolations. Assuming the Thrill is from Odium, I'm thinking that the Thrill could certainly influence Sunmaker to change theology in a way that allowed/encouraged him toward more wars. It may not be direct, but that would certainly be influence. While Brandon has used this type of tactic at other places in the Cosmere, I don't think it would be cheap to use it again. It just shows that Shards are influential in the worlds they touch.

I agree that "a long time" is relative. However the fact that it's mentioned is pretty significant. I know there are other theories about what happened to Gaz. I'm not convinced (I'll discuss under the theory if I think it will add to the discussion). I buy the idea that Hoid ended up with the broam because Gaz needed to buy Hoid off (or thought he did). I think Gaz left because he's a Herald. Lamaril threatened him with the bridgecrews; Hashal is more likely to do it than Lamaril was. He knows better than most that it's a death sentence. He can't afford to die (he'll be sent back to damnation - maybe). With a desolation coming, he most especially can't afford to die, he'll be tortured until the next desolation; forever if there are no more.

I sort of proposed this theory in another thread, but wasn't ready to commit to it at the time. I still can't come up with a better idea. So here it is: Gaz is a Herald. As I've been puzzling over Gaz's disappearance, I've always been struck by the following quote: page 473: It makes me wonder exactly how old Gaz is. This seems to be a really important thing to be said. It sounds like he feels like he's worthless because he gave up on his honor and he doesn't deserve a better life than he has right now. It would also make his statement about ending up in a bridge crew very telling. What would happen to a herald who died a normal death? Would he end up in damnation? that would be plenty of motivation to leave the armies at the Shattered Plains. Being a bridge sergeant was relatively protected. Gaz = Herald could impact the motivations of other many other characters including Hoid. Which Herald is he? I don't know. If Vev is female, it can't be her, despite the connection to the eyes. If Jezrien is in the WoK prologue, then I'd guess Ishtar. Thoughts?

I realized I hadn't updated this thread after my theory was debunked. I asked Brandon at GenCon 2012. No, Taravangian is not Jezrien or any other Herald. When I asked, Brandon looked around as if he really wanted to answer, but just said no. Taravangian has something different going on (which we now know is the variable intelligence).

Again - I'm not willing to say it either

Another thought - Maybe Gaz's past, whatever it is, could have impacted Hoid to give him a way out.

As I've been puzzling over Gaz's disappearance, I've always been struck by the following quote: page 473: It makes me wonder exactly how old Gaz is. This seems to be a really important thing to be said. I'm not sure that I'm ready to say he's immortal, but it sounds like he feels like he's worthless because he gave up on his honor and he doesn't deserve a better life than he has right now. That could impact the motivations of other characters.

Ooooooo... I think you're right. I hadn't thought about the Envisagers as anti-Sunmaker. It makes lots of sense. They did have to be secret - and Teft betrayed them... To whom?

Thanks! I've even hooked my 7 yo. She (on her own) decided to be a PvZ Zombie for Halloween. She took a sunflower... Many people were very confused by the girl-child zombie with a sunflower.

Thanks for the cookie! I think I'll have to enjoy that in the cognitive realm.

Greetings! I've been lurking for a bit and recently started posting. I'm really enjoying reading the discussions on the board. I've been reading Brandon's work for a while and find it all very engrossing. At this point I think I've read all of his Cosmere books at least 2 or 3 times each. I'm about to launch into Alcatraz. The best thing about the Cosmere is that each book gives us small details about how everything fits together, but the clues are so naturally dropped into each book. Nothing is immediately apparent. Complex epic fantasy and some spec fiction is really my favorite type. I really got into WoT, and I think that Brandon has added a great deal by finishing that series. The recent books have seemed more focused. I'm reading some Neal Stephenson right now as well. In my copious amounts of spare time I'm a working mom who also happens to enjoy weaving - and Tango. My favorite games right now are Sentinels of the Multiverse (Wraith reminds me LOTS of Vin) and Plants v. Zombies. I think that's it for the initial intro. Aoibheann

From looking through TWoK for references to The Sunmaker, I think that this historical figure was corrupted by Odium and rewrote the theology completely. We don't really know what the theology was prior to his interference. There are three references to "The Sunmaker" in tWoK: page 353: page 462: page 285: Given the bits that we know above, I believe Vorin theology is completely skewed by what a blood-thirsty 17-year-old wanted it to be. page 285: Supposedly no one knew what the theology truly was prior to the Sunmaker, afterwards people know, but it's shaped through the Sunmaker's lens. I've posted the previous incarnation of this theory over at Stormblessed.com, but I would love to get opinions over here as well. Thoughts?

Thanks for posting this. I hadn't considered this idea, but it makes lots of sense. We know that Miles had metal inside his body at his execution. We also know that a powerful emotional allomancer can take over another person, even with Ruin in control: This makes me wonder if, given Breeze's strength in Soothing, Edwarn isn't a Soother or Rioter.

Thank you - I didn't see that option on the mobile version, but I found it on the full version. Sorry for making things more difficult.

Here's the quote that everyone is looking for: All emphasis is Brandon's. It's interesting to me that the comment about the glow is after the Shardblade puffs away.

What if Heralds have a power over their own appearance, similar to the Returned in Warbreaker? It would make it easier to insert yourself into a royal family at the right time. Just an idea...

to add a bit the the quote that Hoser posted above: Those windspren/honorspren could be attracted to Dalinar and/or his men. We certainly have the idea that Dalinar and his men are the most honorable around. We also don't know what other kinds of spren may be out there, looking like windspren.

What if the Safe Hand were related to the female Knight's healing of Dalinar/Heb in the vision? Both Knights who came to help Heb, Taffa and Seeli fight off the Midnight Essence, but the female night has "Regrowth" which she uses for healing. We don't know which hand she uses... Imagine if Knights Radiant worked in Male/Female teams; the female Knights having the power to heal or keep people safe... It could make it almost sacrilegious to use that hand for mundane tasks.