Orlok Tsubodai

I think Elenion is highly unlikely to be Truthless, Winter. This strikes me far more as some desperate ploy to stay alive, in the same fashion as his earlier ploy to claim Elsecaller.

Apologies, Winter - I don't quite follow. What possible benefit is there to voting on Yitzi? Who will it save?

Travelling today, and have just got off an overnight flight without sleep, so forgive me if my response isn't as coherent as might be desirable. 1. Precisely for this reason, I'd have thought. Why bother killing me if the village will do it for them, if I survive beyond C4? It's been pointed out that I'm not as effective this game as normal - probably a byproduct of time and the format, and they may also have noticed this. I'm not sure, clearly. I think this is pretty obviously a poor argument, and very much don't like the precedent it sets, either. If we start pursuing lynches on this basis, no eliminator team will ever target experienced players, and we condemn them to an early death every game. 2. I'm not sure I've played well enough this game to warrant that, but a number of players have done precisely that, yourself included. A small minority of players have me as uncertain, and as I recall, at least as many as village reads. 3. I would point out that my playstyle has changed significantly over the last few months, and you haven't really seen it - I was evil in LG33, and was doing a full analysis regardless, caught up in the rush of meeting El in person for the first time in LG34, and neutral in LG35. This is the first QF I've applied the "questioning" approach to, and I've already pointed out the vast difference in time available to me between this and LG36. Lopen, I don't blame you for being paranoid, and think you're merely overly so, and thus wrong, rather than evil. Looking back over your points, you've presented no actual evidence that suggests I'm evil.

In an airport about to board with El, and have been at her harp recital today, hence the reduced activity.

@TheMightyLopen, I felt it worth calling attention to this post, reading back through the thread. Would you mind explaining why you were so certain that the Paranoid King lynch would be a mislynch that you were desperate to get someone else lynched? @Elithanathile, this doesn’t answer the question I put to you. The part I find suspicious is here: This was at the end of C2, when Paranoid King was potentially to be lynched, and you refrained from voting on him at that point. Why? This feels artificial to me, and certainly used to be perceived as a hallmark trying to make it seem like people cared. I don't know you well enough, though, Sami, to know whether this is normal. Could anyone else weigh in? Emphasis mine. Also worth calling out, I think. @TheMightyLopen, I had a strong village read on you last cycle, which is now weakening. I'm notoriously bad at recognising humour, but it's another thing influencing my read. Would you set out why you're suspicious of the players you claim to be suspicious of and why you think the village group are villagers? I'm certainly not feeling like I'm doing as well as I did in LG36, which is hardly surprising. Part of it will be the fact that it's just a Quick Fix. In LG36, I had 72 hours each cycle to think over the game, and ask questions. I think I spent ~6 hours a day on it, which is up to 18 hours a cycle. This game, the 24 hour format significantly restricts that, along with the time I'm spending with El this week. My activity will decrease further, as we're flying off to Washington DC this evening, and meeting Wilson in Utah later in the week. @Elenion, apologies if I've missed it, but would you please explain why you're voting on Sart? You mentioned a vote on him that didn't send last cycle - what was your reasoning for that vote? Who else are you suspicious of, and why? @Eternum, would you tell us in your own words what you find suspicious? SImialrly, who else are you suspicious of, and why?

I'm grateful for the apology, Elithanathile. I'm not suspicious of you for not voting on him for a proposal against the rules, I'm suspicious of you for saying that he'd told you something objectively false, and then saying that you weren't certain that he was evil. I said it had been a typo immediately after your post, Wilson confirmed this a few hours later, in gold text as the IM, and yet you made a post many hours after that, towards the end of the last cycle. I'm still not convinced that this adds up, but will think on it further, as it doesn't look like you're getting lynched this cycle.

@Elithanathile, would you be clearer about the contents of the Paranoid King's PMs with you? @Eternum, you say you read through the cycle after you posted your response to Bard, but also posted asking what had happened, as a ploy to trick people into potentially leaving out details, despite this post having been made before you read through the cycle. I might be tunnelling, but your explanation reads to me like an excuse, rather than genuine. Did you honestly spend the time coming up with that ploy before reading through the thread itself? That stretched my credulousness. @TheMightyLopen, as I said in my first multiquote of the cycle, I'll vote on Winter, as Elithanathile isn't a viable lynch this cycle, but would happily return my vote to him, or vote on Eternum, if we could get a lynch through in the next 30 minutes.

@Elithanathile, I’d be much obliged if you’d please stop accusing me of cheating. It’s getting to the point where it’s a little hurtful, and rather irksome. I didn’t cheat, and can’t fathom why you think it of benefit to bring up again after Wilson made clear that the posts hadn't been edited in such a manner, and after PK made clear that his claim wasn't substantiated. If you think someone needs to verify that it was a typo correction, after the IM herself confirmed that it was, make an official complaint, and let’s deal with this properly. I do not like the constant attacks on my integrity, nor the consistent accusations that I'm cheating. @Elithanathile, Squire is literally the name of the village faction, which was made clear a number of times in the thread following Ecthelion’s post. @Sart, Arinian seems to have a habit of voting on Stick on those pretences (or at least, I distinctly remember a near identical post in AG3. I think it was the cycle I collapsed, though, so don’t have it in my analysis spreadsheet). @Elithanathile, this quote strikes me as very off. If he’s feeding you false information, why wouldn’t he be evil? Why do you hold off voting for him, despite it being a very close lynch, if you think he’s performing an action that makes literally no sense from the perspective of a villager? Elithanathile. It strikes me as entirely possible that you didn't want PK lynched and revealed as a villager, putting the blame on you for the suggestion that I altered my post. (Not sure how I reconcile this with my suspicion of Paranoid King stated last cycle. I’ll need to think on it further.) Congratulations on the game, DA! @Darkness Ascendant, that aside, I get a strange sense from this post. It's incredibly easy to posthumously defend a villager. What did you actually discuss with Stick, and why did that give you the sense that she was a villager? @winter devotion, this statement is entirely alignment non-indicative. For your statement to hold true, we need to take your word at face value, which is something we can't do without knowing that you are indeed a villager. I presume the problem with this is apparent? @Eternum, have you not gone back and read the last cycle? I'm not sure whether to read this as a villager, and as such to disregard your future reads, or as an eliminator. If you're a villager, why wouldn't you want to read through the posts you've missed, to ensure your judgements aren't being made without missing information? @winter devotion, once again, your defence is predicated on us taking your statements at face value. The interesting question is why this is your defence. I had thought that you'd played too many games to not know that it would be shot down immediately. As I see it, there are three situations. Either you genuinely didn't see the problem with this, you're a villager without another defence because you're being honest in your actions, and struggle to articulate a defence of them not predicated on questionable premises, or you're an eliminator, trying to use emotional arguments rather than logic. This seems, to me, to be the best explanation for the post, thinking about it. I had read your D1 actions as those of a villager, but it's possible that you were aiming for a gambit where as a claimed Truthless you'd be left alone, as an eliminator. Emphasis mine. An eliminator could also ask in thread, and then point it out, using it to argue that they're not an eliminator. For context, Winter was the GM of my first game, and someone I talked to when she used to play, before her hiatus. I'll multiquote from the 8 posts that have been written since starting this shortly (I've been somewhat distracted), but don't want to risk losing this moving to a new page. Current thoughts are an eliminator team including Eternum, Winter, and one of Elithanathile or Paranoid King. I've set out my suspicion of Elithanathile above. My suspicion of Paranoid King was predicated on his keeping his vote on Flash for "pressure", despite the band wagon that had materialised. Of the two, I think Paranoid King's actions are more likely to have come from a villager than Elithanathile's. I can't reconcile Elithanathile's statement that Paranoid King fed him false information, and then not voting on Paranoid King. As such, I'd be minded to say that PK is a villager, and Elithanathile is evil. I'll look at the votes later this cycle, and will vote for Winter if it looks like PK will be lynched in her stead, but think it's important to call out Elithanathile's actions, so will keep my vote on him for now.

@Jondesu, did you come back online following making this post? What made you keep your vote on Stink? @TheMightyLopen, after making this post, why did you not follow through and commit to voting for either Stick or Flash? Given yo seemed to disagree with the lynch of Ecthelion vocally, why did you not act in a manner to prevent it? @Paranoid King, don’t you think that after the majority of a cycle, multiple votes being placed and retracted, we’ve learnt enough? What more did you really think a poke vote would give us at this stage? Flash had faced far more pressure earlier in the cycle. This feels like a very poor reason for keeping your vote on him, to me, and more like an excuse than something thought through. Unless I come across a better option as my analysis continues, Paranoid King. @Elithanathile, what about Winter’s playstyle do you find disagreeable? She’s been generating a lot of noise, certainly, but I don’t think it is uncharacteristic of her. Do you really think ascribing suspicion on the basis of something a GM might have done is a good idea? That seems extraordinarily tenuous to me. @Elithanathile, at what point did Ecthelion state his possible role? He said he was a Squire, which is the name of the village faction this game. He also wasn’t online between his post and yours - how did you expect him to defend himself? I find it very strange that you profess suspicion of him after saying that the action everyone is voting on him for is NAI, and that you’ve done it yourself - why retain suspicion? @Elithanathile, in your first post of this cycle, before Stink had posted again, you set out your suspicions. Stink wasn’t on that list. What changed between voting for him and declaring him suspicious enough to do so again, and then not including him on your list of suspicions? @The Young Bard, you voiced unsubstantiated suspicion of Stick last cycle, and promised to provide reasoning this cycle. Do you remain suspicious of her? Why? @The Young Bard, I'd like you to go through your logic for determining the numbers of rioters and soothers you posit. It looks pretty clear to me that Stink was soothed off Ecthelion, Flash rioted onto Stick, and Winter rioted onto Ecthelion. Would you mind clearing this up? At present, I'm concerned about why you'd make a post creating so much confusion. Just flagging once more, @Elithanathile, that this is complete nonsense, and that it's an issue for the IM if you do believe this to be the case. Although I've now voted on PK, I do not like that you're trying to lynch me on something so obviously fabricated. Did someone really tell you that in a PM? If so, who are they? Why keep their identity from the thread? @_Stick_, why would you possibly want to be PMd by that player? This post makes me suspicious that you're attempting to cover up being said player who PMd @Elithanathile, if they did exist. @winter devotion, regardless of Jesus being a new player, as has been established, why would posting about Skybreakers not knowing each others' identifies be suspicious? It looks like it's clearly a confused villager. What gave you the impression that it was remotely evil-indicative? What makes it a useful purposeful mistake? It's easily caught and called out, and draws attention to him. @Arinian, as I recall, you used the same argument to justify voting on Stick in AG3, and were wrong about her alignment then. What makes you more confident now?

I corrected a typo I noticed when rereading my post. Elithanathile, voting on you until you reveal the identity of your PM contact. I am really rather interested in the identity of the player trying to get my lynched on a falsehood. @Elithanathile

@Elithanathile, who said that? I certainly didn't edit anything about vote manipulation out of any of my posts. I've been quite honest about why I want to keep Ecthelion alive. I had a streak of very early deaths last year, and very much didn't enjoy it. I know Ecthelion has been getting annoyed about it, and didn't want the same thing to happen to him. Edit: I'm not sure that there's been as much vote manipulation as everyone is speculating. This is the vote count as of the end of the last cycle: Ecthelion (5): Stink, Flash, Megasif, Roadwalker, Stick Flash (4): Orlok, PK, Eternum, Bard Stink (2): Jondesu, Elithanathile Stick (2): Arinian, Drake Rae (1): Winter Jondesu (1): Elenion This is the vote count at the beginning of this cycle: Ecthelion (4): Megasif, Roadwalker, Stick, Winter Flash (4): Orlok, PK, Eternum, Bard Stick (3): Arinian, Drake, FlashStink (2): Jondesu, Elithanathile Jondesu (1): Elenion It looks like Stink was soothed off Ecthelion, Flash rioted from Ecthelion to Stick, and Winter rioted from Rae to Ecthelion. A soother and two rioters, @The Young Bard, not three rioters and five soothers.

I'm in a PM with Lopen, who brought up this post as worthy of attention. He argues that it feels like setting up a future lynch target as an eliminator, that the suspicion feels forced, and that the vote is an out, rather than meant. I'm not sure that Lopen will get on again before the end of the cycle, but wanted to put this in the thread. I don't like the lynch of Ecthelion. As I said in my multi quote, I had a long string of C1 and C2 deaths, and it isn't fun. Ecthelion has had such a string recently, too, and I very much don't think that this bandwagon on him is justified, particularly given his recent history of early deaths. I'm not convinced by Lopen's argument, nor by the other arguments in thread calling for Flash's lynch, but I think its a stronger lynch, and a kinder lynch, than the current bandwagon on Ecthelion. As such, I'm going to vote on The Flash, and retract on Roadwalker (although I do intend to put more pressure on Roadwalker next cycle. I'd call on @winter devotion, @Megasif, @_Stick_, @STINK, @Roadwalker, and anyone else I've missed to similarly consider changing their vote, and would ping @Ecthelion III, in case he hasn't seen the side of this bandwagon.

So, I don't think the Truthless actually is a villager. If they are, the optimal course of action for them to take is to claim immediately, and ask for a single person lynch on them. The Truthless has no interest in causing a greater number of villager deaths, and indeed, wants the village to remain as strong as possible, so as to be more able to find all the eliminators. Obviously, this hasn't happened. What I think is far more likely, is that El's PAFO post is because the Truthless is now neutral, rather than villager, and so has no incentive not to have as much fun with the role as possible. @winter devotion, why are you suspicious of Ecthelion? Do you really think that his saying "Squire" rather than "Villager" warrants a vote? If you're suspicious of Rae, why don't you vote on her? Again, it seems like you have a pattern of casting suspicion without following through with it. @Jondesu, are you able to give us any more justification for your vote on Stink? If you're always suspicious of Stink, is voting on him on gut a good idea? Equally, @Arraenae, an eliminator team, by virtue of being larger, may well include players who know that Ecthelion doesn't like dying early. General thoughts: I'd like to elaborate on the point Stink made about good dicsussion and bad discussion. We're seeing a lot of posts this cycle, but many of them aren't thought through, or are single comments that could be held for inclusion in a larger post. We're generating a lot of noise, but not an awful lot of signal. Single comments, and off topic discussions make it harder to find the signal amongst the noise - they obscure the useful information. Discussion on why you think a player is evil is useful discussion. Falsely claiming Truthless to generate discussion generates a great deal of noise, and obscures the signal of alignment indicative discussion. I'd also state, in case people don't read my previous post, that I think the bandwagon on Ecthelion is entirely unjustified. I don't agree with the early votes on Flash, as no GM would handicap an elimaintor team in that way, and I would point out to the thread that we do still have time left this cycle to find an alternative lynch target.

@Megasif, I've already called out your point about believing an eliminator had already posted. Further thoughts: I don't see why this is advantageous at all from a villager's perspective, but as an eliminator it creates an IKYK when you die. It would force us to consider whether you knew that there was one above you, and were trying to dissuade us from considering players posting before this because clearly you wouldn't say it if there were, or whether you knew there weren't and wanted us to doubt that. Would you also please explain why you asked Rae her role? Asking for alignment doesn't help the eliminators, and gives the village useful information on how people answer the question - do they avoid answering, or act in an overzealous manner? Asking for roles on the other hand doesn't really help the village - we don't need to know who the soothers are, for instance, but helps the eliminators pick targets. Even if she doesn't have a role, you narrow the search space for the eliminators. @Arraenae, looking back on this, are you claiming to have a role? I don't see why you'd do this as a villager, but might potentially feel safer doing so as an eliminator. This post has been castigated a lot, with a great many players questioning why @Ecthelion III went to the effort of including the village alignment name. Personally, I don't think that this is too suspicious, and it reminds me too much of the Ripple debacle. It's just as important for villagers to make it obvious that they're village as it is for people to try to find actual eliminators - every cleared villager makes the list of potential eliminators smaller. It's entirely possible that Ecthelion was anxious to make it obvious that he was a villager,or indeed, that he merely felt like putting the faction name in because he was engaged in the setting. Ecthelion has also died early in a number of games recently. Having had this happen to myself (I had a string of ~7 consecutive games in which I died C1-2), I know it's not fun, and don't think we should have Ecthelion die early again over something as small as this. @Megasif, time zones, and the fact that it was very early morning for Europe, and late at night for out of the Americas mean that most of an aliminator team wouldn't have seen the game go up. Are you really suggesting that all the eliminators were online, and decided that one of them should post early? Why wouldn't they all try to get on the village side, when they came online? @The Young Bard, why do you think knowing the number of each role helps the village? They're almost certainly all in the game, so you can give advice regardless. Asking for the number seems like a very eliminator thing to do, ascertaining the degree of safety they need in the end game, etc. @Darkness Ascendant, if you hadn't already worked it out, the two kills are flavour only. El killed Hael because Alv wanted his head, and I imagine Kenara had been the planned death at the start of the game, to have the setting be the chaos. I'd also ask why you thought claiming as a roleless was a good idea? If you're claiming honestly, you make it much easier for the eliminators to find the actual roles that they need to deal with. I disagree that its pointless for the village - as I set out above, it puts players on the spot - particularly articulating how they feel about their alignment. Eliminators will have to fabricate an answer, which provides opportunities for slipping up. I don't disagree with your belief that Rae is town, or that not all discussion is good discussion, but don't think that Rae's actions were necessarily unhelpful. It would have been much better if she had asked follow up questions exploring players answers, increasing the pressure on them, but I don't think the answer to the question rae puts is always NAI. @Jondesu, Megasif didn't really add to it, so much as ask Rae the question she was asking everyone else, which I think is entirely fair. I'd been planing on it myself before Megasif did so. The first thing to highlight, @winter devotion, is that there isn't a role scanner in the game. I think this lack of knowledge alone is the most interesting part of the post. Had you actually been an eliminator or Truthless trying a gambit, I think you'd have checked the rules more carefully. Believing you to be a regular villager, I'm not sure why you consider this post helpful. You've said that it was a gambit to keep yourself alive, as I recall. I'd question why you think this is worth generating a great deal of noise in the thread, obscuring useful discussion. SE is a team game. As villagers, sometimes the best move to make is to allow yourself to be lynched, as the information revealed from it clears or casts suspicion on players. Keeping yourself alive to the detriment of the village, as a villager, really isn't helpful. @Elithanathile, would you care to explain why you're suspicious of Winter, Stink, and Ecthelion. Knowing your reads is useful, but knowing the thought process behind your reads helps us both clear you as a villager, and consider whether your suspicions merit supporting. This post makes me lean village on @Megasif. It's certainly possible that as an eliminator he made a mistake about the player he was trying to cast suspicion on, but in my experience eliminators tend to be more careful, and this looks to me like progression of thought, which we're unlikely to see from an eliminator. @winter devotion, why won't you vote? Expressing a suspicion and not following it through always strikes me as trying to encourage a lynch without taking the blame when it comes out as a villager. @Elenion, I'd Ike to thank you for speaking sense about role claims, and ask you why you think Ecthelion's response is evil? You know him well, clearly, and have also played a lot of games with him. Do you think it's really an action likely to come from an eliminator? @winter devotion, I'd also call out that it seems like you were looking for something to jump onto very quickly, seeming supportive without exposing yourself through any thoughts. I'm still leaning village on you, due to your slip up in the attempted IKYK, but would definitely like you to justify and back your positions more thoroughly in the future. @Magestar, I'm not sure what else you expected to happen when Rae asked people directly whether they were village? It was interesting to observe players' responses, if not useful this time, and avoiding the question as villagers would have created a whole mess of unnecessary suspicion. I'm not sure there's really a parallel to claiming a role, which is what you seem to be implying when you say you won't claim, unless you're telling us that you won't claim as a villager.... @Eternum, would you tell us why you think Rae is village, and why you don't trust Megasif? @STINK, if you're voting on Ecthelion for a scheme of his, which is what you seem to be implying, would you mind explains the situation a little more to the thread? @Ecthelion III, given you might die today, would you care to explain what Stink is talking about? @Arraenae, would you explain your last line of logic there to me? It seems to me that you're voting on Flash because you think someone else is attacking someone's read on him. I'm not sure I follow why this makes Flash evil - it's a perfectly normal thing to do to attack an unsubstantiated read. If you're suspicious of Flash because you think evil!Overlordjebus defended him, why not vote on Overlordjebus, and establish whether or not your theory is right? @Roadwalker, what about the IKYK with the Truthless made you think Winter was evil? You clearly think it warranted a vote, yet didn't call them out on her mistaken belief that there was a scanner. Why did you decide not to do so? If you didn't realise, then did you really read their post carefully enough to warrant a vote? Right now, it looks a little like you were trying to find an excuse to vote. @Roadwalker, would you also explain why you changed your mind on Winter? Do you still consider her suspicious? I'm not sure why you're suing such hyperbole when you say that you see "absolutely no reason why Ecth would say Squire". Did you really consider his actions? I brought up a number of reasons earlier in my post, and my list isn't exhaustive. For now, I'll put my vote on Roadwalker. @Eternum, which point of Rae's do you think justified the vote on Flash? Her argument about Overlordjebus seems very tenuous to me. It's also worth saying that confirmed village does not mean confirmed right. Following Rae merely because you think she's village both reduces the critical thought available to the village, means that if Rae's manipulated, the whole village is vulnerable, and isn't really a solution to increasing our effectiveness at finding eliminators. @Megasif, would you mind justifying your vote on Ecthelion, please? More multiquoting to follow on posts made since beginning this post, as well as some general thoughts, but I really don't want to lose what I've written again, so will post now.

Being a villager you actually have to think about players' actions and alignments, and try to actually solve the game, which for me takes more effort than pretending to try to solve the game.

@Megasif, we're still in the very early morning for Europe, and the middle of the night for the East coast of the US. WHat makes you so certain that an eliminator has commented already? Seven players had posted before you, so it is statistically likely that one has posted, I suppose. I'm struggling to understand why you bring this up, though. Would you care to explain? I did indeed, and am surprised to see you generating it so proactively. Thoughts: This is a different playstyle for you, but is positive, and something I want to encourage, despite the change of style being potentially suspicious. I'm not sure why you'd bring up that you haven't been an eliminator for a year, nor why it's relevant to this game. Something minor, but worth highlighting at this stage of the game. I very much approve of your not claiming, and hope that you'd consider "New Recruit" a role, and are not indicating that you have a role. You've played enough games to know the value of role safety. Alignment: Village. Thoughts on getting the alignment: Being a villager takes more time and effort, and my activity may be somewhat variable as I travel over the next week. I'm planning on trying to replicate the approach I took in LG31 D1, and LG36, and seeing if an inquisitorial approach will be as helpful in a Quick Fix. I'm not planning on an analysis of the sort I did in AG3, QF22, or LG33, as I'm still in the US with El, and want some time with her.

@Ecthelion III, this is a QF, which should limit El's options if she isn't being a troll. (She is a troll, as a heads up. I know this from a great deal of time spent with her.) Regardless, I think a hidden faction is incredibly unlikely. Current thoughts are something to do with the Truthless (potentially having to be killed by the Truthless, or keeping the Truthless alive), and the standard neutral roles (Serial Killer and Survival). Impact wise, I'm not terribly worried about anything except the serial killer, which would become obvious in 24 hours time, at the start of C2. Someone voting in every lynch might lead to a mislynch, but won't cost us the game, and probably wouldn't materially impact the game much either. Keeping the Truthless alive would be more problematic, as we'd likely start drawing connections between the two players, leading to a potential lynch for one of them, which isn't useful if it is the Truthless lynched. A Survival role might add a potential vote to the eliminator team, or might just help the village. I think enough of us have learnt enough from LG35 about neutrals not to antagonise a neutral player with a survival role, though. Ultimately, we'll find out tomorrow whether El is being a troll in a way that will materially impact the game.

Nightblood and the Eyes are mine, thank you very much, Alvron.

@Ecthelion III, @Elenion, @Jondesu, thank you all very much for running this game. I had a great deal of fun trying to solve it, with the mechanics (which I think are fantastic), and with sueing you. I'm actually quite sorry for ending the game - I think watching the next few cycles would have been fascinating, and hope you'll tell us what you had planned for the next few worlds.

Interesting. Now that you know you're going to die tonight, who will you kill with your role?

I'll sign up as Locke Tekiel. Still getting my head around the mechanics, but am sure it will be fun.

It's a night cycle. I put Cloud in red to highlight my suspicion, because I won't be around during the Day Cycle.

That would seem reasonable, yes.

I hope RL gets easier for you, Araris. I think that it may well have been an eliminator making a mistake. It is an obvious move for the eliminator team, but that doesn't preclude an eliminator from making said action. At the moment, I think it's the most suspicious action unaddressed in the game, and that it warrants attention. I strongly encourage the jury to ask amongst themselves, and encourage any of those fourteen remaining alive to speak up. Time travel indeed poses issues with crime, but I'd suggest we consider that whilst those actions may be in the future generally (if I'm interpreting you correctly), they're in the past for you. You've already cut Mr, Red Facemask in two, and he died as a result of your historical action.