Awesomness

What I love about Moash is that he is grey, and there are meny ways to interpret his actions. I could argue Moash didn´t murder Elokhar: he sided with the Singers in a war against humans, he found the leader ok Alethkar in battle and killed him, just as any other soldier would have. By far a lesser crime than, say, Sadeas´s murder. It doesn´t matter if he had his son in his arms. Remember Dalinar feeling ashamed for not killing a child (and an heir) in battle. This is he Alethi Way after all... The salute could have been a sign of respect to the one who put him back on track and taught him how to fight. After all, who would Moash be without Kaladin? I wonder if he still has the Bridge 4 patch..? After killing Elokhar, he feels empty inside, and that is when he finally gives himself up to Odium, and does whatever the Fused ask without questioning, but he still has a sense of right and wrong, so I still think he may come back to the light side. I really don´t know where I stand regarding Moash, but he is really compelling, and a great way to contrast other character´s action. The kind of guy you love to hate.

@DeployParachute you brew my mind with that stone. Great catch! I think the fact that we are having flashbacks from dead characters (Eshonai, but I wouldn´t be surprised if Ash, Taln, Renarin or Jasnah die before their respective book) may open more room to keep exploring our main beloved characters. Hahaha Really? Do you have the WoB? Btw those Adolin WoB were great. I still hope we´ll get something more juicy from Adolin. through the books we have explored the actions, consequences and underlying morality of so many characters, I refuse to believe this plotline will be left open. I wonder where did she go... You read my mind and worded it better than I could I loved Oathbringer, but it gave me a middle-book-feel of incompleteness.

Hello! I don´t really have time to elaborate a post, but I´s like to point something out quickly. Here we have a sort of cognitive dissonance. We have a great guy, who we know does great things and is caring, friendly and kind to everyone. AND, he "snapped" and killed a person. We all want Adolin to go on being this incredibly good guy, and there are a lot of good interpretations about the morality of that murder. But it is still a Murder.

I agree they are not really similar, but I think the backgrounds weren´t the same. Yes, they both were darkeyes and their lifes were ruined by storming-lighteyed-cremlings. But the main difference in their backgrounds is their respective families. We don´t know much about Moash´s grandparents; but we know Lirin and Hesina are very unusual people, and Lirin is a great influence in Kal´s moral sense. I personally don´t know what to think about the salute. That scene, though absolutely great, was too much for me, I haven´t reread it yet. I do believe Moash still sees Kaladin in a positive light, even if says he was protecting a murderer. And I think he has given himself up to odium and doesn´t question anything anymore. But Moash is not a mindless killer, he still has it in him to care, and to do the right think. I wouldn´t be surprised if he redeems himself at the last moment. To me, Moash is an incredibly interesting character, I don´t know if I hate him or not, but his perspective makes a great contrast to the other arcs.

Exatcly this is the main reason why I don´t think he will become an ED. Glad you mentioned it because I was begining to think I was alone in this matter. I´d like to add a comment on this. Who was the Chasm´s Shallan? She was: Funny --> Princess Shallan Naive, proper --> Princess Shallan Brave --> Veil Independent ---> Veil Passionate about beauty and nature ---> ?? some almost forgotten trait Heroic --> Radiant Compassionate --> Veil Positive --> Princess Shallan True, sincere, broken --> True Shallan Self confident --> Veil / Radiant Etc (you are welcome to add adjectives too) Funny thing is, Shallan sees herself as insecure, and this is a treat she associates to Princess Shallan, but I don´t think Kaladin ever sees her being insecure. I ´d say she is at her best around Kaladin (except when she snaps at him, and I associate this to Helaram´s death) Adolin recognizes Princess Shallan, wish is currently the persona Shallan identifies with. But she can be so much more!!! -this is when I get frustrated at her all over again... Welcome and don´t worry. Read the thread and you will find your way onboard again! Funny that at the end of WoR people said Shalladin shouldn´t be because it would be unfair to ask Shallan to be Kal´s light. Now their arcs are reversed. He, as well as Adolin, are in relative good places: Shallan is a mess. I don´t think I´ve read much about how unfair is for Adolin to "anchor" Princess Shallan... We should throw a party when we hit the 100 pages! Violet wine for everyone!

I loved Bridge 4 POVs too. In WoR Kal seems to feel uncomfortable when they sort of worship him, so it was great to see how the members of Bridge 4 know he has a lost of flaws, but tries to overcome them, can often be soft and tender, and though they have faith in Kaladin, they also know he is not unbreakable. I loved their perspective

Hello Ize, welcome! Congratulations (and thanks) for reading our awesome thread! You blew my mind with this little bit! More hints, more hints Seem´s like we have enough crew to repair our sinking ship and keep on sailing I´m still reading Phineas´s essay, so I´ll comment on this later.

Hello Maxal. Your love for Adolin is one of the cosmere unyielding forces, like Time or Highstorms! I see a lot of wishful thinking in yor post. I kind of think it is a lost cause, as Adolin is (specially after OB) definitely a side character with a POV. Like Navani, he is great and he gives a refreshing "normal" perspective. I don´t think we will see him grow, and that is the boring part. I wouldn´t like him to be reduced to comic release... Having an unchanging character in the dynamic world of SA is suspicious. And the scenes when we see him ostensibly avoiding responsibility in OB really unnerved me. I´d like to ask you what do you think about: - Adolin avoiding responsability from killing a highprince - Adolin avoiding responsability from becoming king In a different contect, I think I wouldn´t mind so much, but after reading Moash, Amaram talking about bad thing that weren´t their fault, Odium trying to tempt Dalinar into giving up his responsability for every sinned he commited while being the blackthorn.... I just can´t ignore it

Mmmm maybe he´ll die a la Elokhar, trying to say the oaths? Personally I don´t think he will turn into an Edgedancer. I don´t buy the evidence, seems to be wishful thinking (LOL) Maybe he won´t completely revive Maya -because the only one who can do that is her KR-, but he will half revive her, and ease her pain.

Again we are building a whole new theory based on hints and foreshadowing. This sort of disregards the Adolin-Proto-Edgedancer theory (that I personally don´t buy). I do not dare to say this out loud and use it as evidence yet (as I don´t have the book on hand to check) but I find myself doubting if Adolin´s scene with the prostitute was an active act of kindness or cockiness against the guy who was harassing her... I always read that scene in the context of Kaladin´s arc, not Adolin´s.

Hahahah Why didn´t he show her how to really fly then?! I think what bothers us about this is that in the book no one ever think about it. Kal + Shallan + Syl flying in the storm... must have been fun! I agree with this, but it is a modern take on the issue. If we parallel Roshar with medieval Europe, having children make more sense than not having children given the context. Though I don´t think this was the main reason why the wedding was so rushed, I do think it is something people would consider in that context. Regarding Adolin´s temper, I think it´s a pity we never saw the impulsive Adolin in OB, but I think it may be because he was "low" at the moment. He doesn´t understand his place in this new world. Much of his temper comes from his cockiness, and now that he feels out of league, it dampens his temper.

I'm so torn. I read Adolin as sweetness and light, a non-dramatic person in this story who won't go dark. But stuff like this, and my possibly quite tenuous whitespine symbolism investigation, leave me thinking that there is something to this... This is a pretty big about face from what we're slapped in the face with so many times - one must take responsibility for one's actions... Do not have my mind made up here. I think this issue about Sadeas´s murder and responsability mirrors Rock´s feelings about killing Amaram. He knows he was justified, but doesn´t make him feel any better. Adolin avoiding his responsability, in the context of Odium tanking away the fault and guilt can´t be coincidence. The only other characters that we see avoiding responsability are Moash and Amaram... Not that I want any child, but I think the chronologically accurate take would be to have children, as many as possible. There is a Desolation right now, people are dying at great and increasing rates. If they want to secure the future of the species, they should star producing... This is how it used to be in the past, when peopla had many children and some of them died before adulthood...

I always read Timbre as a male, because "timbre" is a male word in spanish (you know, nouns have genre, so we say "el timbre", el being male pronoun). Of course, what do I know about Brandon´s spanish level... Anyway, I rememder there was a WOB saying there is something significant about spren being the opposite genre of their radiants. The only exceptions are Dalinar (who we consider an excussed), Renarin and Lopen. Renarin and Glys could be explained because Glys is corrupted... or Renrin is gay... And, there is another WOB that say Herdazians are nearly asexual because the have parshendi blood. Lopen´s spren is a boy, so maybe and just maybe I just came up with a very irrelevant theory This could be another argument against Shadoin and pro Shalladin!! This is a serious worry for many woman!

That is you being biased. I've read many shadolin shippers saying they do connect deeply, for different reasons. Anyway, I don't think this is black and white. Maybe I should make an in depth analysis of both ships arguments to classify and count them down...

I don't know what it is, buy I strongly believe it´s not Evi´s chain. Why would Evi´s chain be there? Why would it be so expensive? Why such a big RAFO? I'm sure it´s something very mysterious with unsettling powers.

Mmm and here I was thinking Renarin was gay, for not specific reasons...

This! As a marketing professional I cannot but see this as something very deliberate. Of course the AMA is done as one of many promotional events, so of course they should´t start a heated discussion on the (maybe)most polemic issue of the book. So we have happy shadowing shippers and neutral shalladin shippers. Note: my innocence has been ruined by mkt and advertising studies and practice, so I don't mean to offend or question anyone´s integrity. This is just how I see things by default. If I am wrong, please feel free to point it out. On the "Whishful thinking" topic: I think we could differentiate 2 very different readers profile by what ship they are shipping (?). Shadolin shippers seem to be very focussed on interaction. They also seem to be more grounded in how the relationship would work in real life. On the other hand, we clearly haven't seen much interaction between Kal and Shallan, but spent 42 pages of a thread discussing foreshadowing. This different perspectives are even addressed by Brandon in that video shared earlier on this thread about writing romance. So we have 2 very reasonable, understandable and valid ways of interpreting a fictional work, one more reality-grounded, and one more figurative, more reliant on the suspension of disbelief. If this sociological theory is correct, no wonder why shipping wars escalate and never seem to find common ground. @PhineasGage You say there is not Shadolin foreshadowing, well it´s not needed... wether this foreshadowing will pay of, or the story will keep showing a realistic kind of relationships, time will tell. I personally see myself as an unwilling Shalladin Shipper, I was annoyed when I caught the first hint, but couldn't ignore the clues.

@Starla Regarding this, there was an interesting discussion going on at the Shallan Davar Disgust Thread (xD) I´ll quote one of the posts, but there was more interesting insight. ^This, exactly this. Spot on. Personally, it gives me a little hope to know this matters were addressed and discussed.

@LewsTherinTalamon Not to keep up your hopes, but BS said pretty much the same about reviving shardblades

mmm my feeling is that some people like Adolin very much and want him to become a Radiant, probably bonding his sword. So they start looking for reasons for him to be broken, or at least to be more complex than he appears to be. Others are confortable having a normal secondary character, with an interesting perspective but not necessarily developed through trauma. To me, he seems adorable but bland. I don't mind him being bland, so it´s ok.

My coping process took me to consider some things in the last week away from this trerapeutic thread. First, I really liked Kaladin´s arc in OB. And Kal "realizing" he was never in love with Shallan, though anticlimactic to say the least, is very healthy because he will stop relying in other people to find happiness. Second, from Shallan´s perspective, Kaladin would be a very problematic choice. How can you be with someone knowing he killed your brother? Even if she understands the situation, reason and feeling not always align. Maybe in time, but right now she found this out 2 months ago... Besides, neither of them are ready for a relationship, and wouldn´t be good for each other. I still haven't processed: Shadolin´s mildness and Shallan´s issues... So, right now, I don't think they could be together if she hadn't chosen Adolin. But I refuse to think all that foreshadowing went down the loo with her marriage...

When we discuss the topic here I find it hard to compare with the real world and real messed-up and not-so-messed-up people.. I like to think this term is used as an in world tool, and we are not such dummies in real life

I´d like to bring this up. We have a WOB that says you need to be broken to forge a Nahel Bond. Ever since we keep talking about brokenness, if a character is more or less broken, if they are broken at all or what does it take to break someone; specially when we are talking about Adolin. We keep comparing characters when actually there is no ground to compare. In real life, and I think in SA too, what we call "brokenness" is complicated, every person is a world on they own. Besides, mental issues are a mix of nature and nurture (for instance, there is a lot about Kal´s depression that comes from himself, lots of Shallan´s issues come from her experiences). It is simplistic, yet is our only fact about the Nahel Bond we can use to theorize... so maybe we should try to keep this in mind when discussing brokenness.

"love of adventure, novelty, or oddity." could explain his womanizing years, his interest in Shallan, wanting to become a KR and his desire of reviving Mayalaran, Maybe? mmm, everyone is ok with Sadeas´s murder... BTW Hi, glad to be back

Mmm I'm with @Ryder on this. LW seem to be very self absorbed, and Rock is a giver. Also he listens and knows what to say to help his friends. I don´t think his lies define him.