Kyats Rani

I've never been much of a fan of Szeth but you made me change my mind He's still not one of my favourities but now I'm giving him a chance (we will see in Stones Unhallowed). As for this matter... I think that at that moment Szeth finally took the full responsibility for what he did. Before he thought he had no other choice because he was Truthless. When he realized it wasn't the case he understood that everything he did was his personal guilt (for an explanation of this look up the story Hoid tells Kaladin in WoK). Szeth thought that he deserved to die for his crimes and so he allowed Kaladin to kill him. He didn't try to redeem himself but he took the full responsibility. Now that Szeth is alive again he has to live with the knowledge that he murdered so many people. It will gnaw at his soul forever so his life will be now his penance. But he will live it and try to do something good to even up (but not remove) his past deeds. At least that's how I'd like to see it.

Well, the matter of healing with stormlight is that it bases on how a person sees himself. Judging by Renarin's character he propably considered the spectacles a part of him as Kaladin considers his brands. Unconscious healing happens only to injures that are either life-threatening or something temporary (like Shallan's feet). If Renarin didn't know that he can heal himslef he wouldn't try to heal his eyes. When he found out that this is possible he consciously decided to heal his eyesight. And it may not be so much about that he considered his problems with eyes a part of himslef but the fact that he considered them unhealable. It is known that a flesh wound can be healed but on Roshar healing eyesight is not possible. As long as Renarin didn't know it's possible to heal his eyes he couldn't do it. So how did he find out it is possible? Because Glys told him so (I see no other logical explanation). And so Renarin could make a consiuos decision to heal his eyes. That does indicate at least the first oath. The problem with Renarin is that we know so little about him and therefore his progression as a Radiant. But it is known that the abilities of a Radiant, both the healing and physical enhancing capabilities and surgebinding, become more powerful with every spoken oath. Renarin's visions were in my opinion a very powerful case of surgebinding so that's why I say he has propably spoken two oath by the end of WoR. It can be also judged by what we know of Glys. He knew that Renarin was a Truthwatcher. Syl got a recollection of such things (the name of the order and even what kind of spren she is) only around the time when Kaladin spoke the second ideal, so I'm pretty convinced that Renarin has said two oaths by the time he confronted the other Radiants. As for Adolin slowly bonding the spren of his Blade... I wouldn't yet call that proper bonding in regard of the Nahel bond. He bonded a Blade and with time forged a kind of close relationship with it, which may soon lead him to the Nahel bond. But he's not quite there yet.

Well, my interpretation of "life before death" is that you have to truly LIVE your life instead of being dead inside. I see this part of the ideal as a counter for the fact that a Radiant must be broken. Let's look at Kaladin - he was so broken that he considered himself already dead but he didn't start becoming a Radiant until he decided to live and keep trying (at the Honor Chasm at first and later after surviving the highstorm when he spoke the ideal). Or another example - the bridgemen were alive but not living and Kaladin had to help them live again, I see this as following this part of the first oath. And even if the above is proven completely wrong, I don't think "life before death" is supposed to be read "no killing allowed, everyone must live" (which would lead us to the case of protagonist leaving alive somebody who have killed thousands of lives because said protagonist "isn't like him", which I call a total pile of dung). Killing shouldn't be treated as a way to solve every situation, but sometimes it's the only way (were Sadeas left alive he would continue to do more evil than good and propably cause some more deaths on top of the events on the Tower). Thus being said, I'm not saying that what either Adolin or Jasnah did was right. Their intentions were ultimately good but the means they used to achieve it were wrong. And yet, there is a WoB stating that what Jasnah did was worse than what Adolin did (I'll look it up and add the quote later). I agree with this. Jasnah tried to bait those men on purpose, she planned it and thought it out carefully before doing anything. What she planned to do was to kill them to prevent them from killing others. Adolin didn't plan murder, he acted in a rush of emotions. He didn't kill Sadeas in cold blood, he wasn't even thinking what he was doing at the point. He didn't even want to kill Sadeas, ultimatley he only wanted him not to cause any more trouble against Dalinar. That doesn't mean that what Adolin did isn't wrong, but it means that he's not a ruthless vigilante who considers himslef above the law. Come on, he felt guilty after he murdered Sadeas while Jasnah seemed not to show any emotions about it!

My take for the 2nd ideal of Dustbringers is: "I will not flinch even in the face of death." They are after all associated with bravery and I believe that a truly brave person would stand against their fears. They would be afraid but fight nonetheless. "I will lead when no-one else can." That's how I see the 4th ideal of Windrunners.

Actually, what Kaladin did is completely justified, especially in Alethkar it's perfectly within law and Skybreakers (Nalan) follow law above all else. I mean, Kal did kill him, but it was during a battle when Helaran was an enemy and previously murdered men from Kaladin's squad and later tried to kill Amaram, who was at the time Kaladin's liege lord (or however we call it...).

You know, there was a reason for spoiler tags... Go and check out his reading from book 3, you will understand

Granted, but you see it die in a horrible way. it constantly bites you and your family/friends. I wish my cat could live with me in my student accomodation.

Well, have you already seen the reading of his chapter from the book 3? It's somewhere on the forum But I wouldn't say it answers every question, so let's speculate We have WoB that his parents are alive (but I'm too lazy to look for it right now). As for the rest... I may base what I say on the reading, so I'll put it in the spoiler tags

If the Knights Radiant had all the ideas we have, the Desolations wouldn't last a day

How about shuriken (the throwing stars)? I'm not sure, but I think they really existed (all those ninja anime/films must take them from somewhere, right?). So we could get a big Shardshuriken and voila It doesn't return on it's own though, but I'm sure a Radiant can summon their spren back instantously (after all it can be done to a regular - dead - Shardblade). I don't know how to explain it with the in-book logic, but I don't think spren could just fly around and change into blades to kill their enemies because that would make the Radiants severely overpowered. I guess that after taking the form of a certain weapon a spren is somehow inclined to behave like a real wepon would (except for the fact that they cut the soul and not the body).

Ok, I guess that would have too much potential to get out of hand and end in a disaster But it would still be cool Ok, you're right. But I think Adolin has seen to many Radiants to understand the oath and then speak it while not expecting it to have any significance. It's more likely that he will do something alike to what Kal did: having those words stuck in his head he will try his hardest to understand them (possibly to better understand those close to him who became Radiants) so he may say them aloud trying to work out their real meaning but with no success and at some later point come to some moral conclusions unaware that this is the meaning of the first ideal. I hope so... So maybe Renarin flinched upon receiving the Blade because he saw how it's proximity affected Glys and become afraid of it? Kind of "is it a good idea to touch this if a spren fears it?" I strongly believe Renarin to be after saying at least 2 oaths by the end of WoR. We didn't see his progress but it doesn't mean he made none. But I think him to have problems with surgebinding - he consciously healed his sight but the visions seem as an unconscious (if not unvoluntary) doing. He propably didn't try to train his abilities as Kaladin and Shallan were doing, so he may not know how to make use of, say, Progression. He has powers but not the ability to use them as he pleases. I see him as somebody advanced in oaths but rookie when it comes to making use of what he can do.

But do we know anything about Heralds' abilities without their Honorblades? Besides immortality? Adolin was unable to fight Szeth because Szeth was Surgebinding, otherwise he would propably do much better. So if Nalan has nothing to offer besides Surgebinding of the Honorblade (which he doesn't have at the moment I believe) Adolin may stand a chance to fight him off at least for some time (if he has his Blade that is, without Shards I doubt his chances).

Since the Rosharian year is 1.1 of the year on Earth then every we could safely assume that SA characters are a year older than their age is stated in the book if we want to compare it to our measurement of age. So it's not a big difference for a child or a young peron around 20, but at the age of, say, 70, those 7 years can make a difference. Basing on my own experiences and a query among my friends I assume that a child can have vivid memories around the age of 7-8, less if the memory is particularly important or traumatic to said child. Honestly, I remember the day my cat died when I was 3 but I barely can recall thing from the time I started primary school So if Adolin was very close to his grandfather he would remember him well even if he died when Adolin was 5-6, but he may not remember something that happened to him when he was 9 if he didn't consider it important. But I don't think the fact that Adolin says he remember his grandfather's metal condition means that he was old enough to understand it. He possibly remembered the way his grandpa behaved and the strange things he did or said and only when he was older (teenager propably) he understood what had been happening to his grandfather before. So it could have been that the grandfather (later called simply Kholin as it's shorter) died when Adolin was, say, 6. Assuming that Alethi males marry at 22 (as I'd put it in the range of 20-25 because men are usually older than their wives in such cultures) it's reasonable that the second child in an important lighteyed family (who propably considers it vital to have an heir so the first is propably born during the first or second year of marriage) may be born around 28. So we have our Kholin being 28 and having baby Dalinar. Now, during the SA Adolin is 23 and Dalinar is 50, so simple maths gives us that Adolin was born when Dalinar was 27, so it's kind of late for the first son. But I don't really think this contadicts my reasoning too much as we know that Dalinar spent 3 years courtning his future wife.So Dalinar was 33 when Adolin was 6 and therefore the eldest Kholin would be 61. Taking into account the length of the year on Roshar we can say he would be around 67 years old on Earth, which isn't too uncommon. Now, I know that I've taken much liberty in my reasoning, but that's in my opinion not bad approximation of the lower boundary of his age. And he may or may not have been particularly long-lived for an Alethi (though obviosly he would be older than most of the darkeyes due to his rank), which depends of his personal physical capacity and even a random occurence (like an illness). Anyway, in the second part of SA Dalinar would be around 60 and since he is in a very good shape and can use stormlight to improve his health, so it's pretty safe to say that he has a very strong chance to be still alive then, provided that he won't die in battle earlier on. Ok, so that was my take on logical thinking in order to determine possible Alethi life capacity. I'm not saying I'm good at such things, so there may be mistakes. Now, on a less intelectually demanding note (and more rambling/speculation one, which is what I'm very good at )... I got this idea in my head lately when my brain refused to focus on my studies and strayed to SA And I think this is the right thread for it. We know that Lift can touch spren in physical realm, right? If I remember correctly Wyndle moves by sliding on the ground. I can't guess whether it's fast or slow, but it's definitely less practical than Syl just floating around. So I imagined Lift having Wyndle wrap himself (as he is kind of a plant with vines...) around her arm so she can carry him around An easy way to help him moving and a very cool accessory for Lift I guess it is something that Lift would be capable of doing (provided that she stops considering Wyndle a Voidbringer).

Like the idea, but I'm afraid Darkness (Naln) is too busy chasing proto-Radiants to care for a mere Alethi prince... And Darkness cannot fly without his Honorblade. But that would be an epic battle indeed Especially if Szeth came as well with Nightblood.

Well, one of my other theories is that if Adolin doesn't become a Radiant he somehow gets Nightblood in his hands and therefore manages to be very useful in fight and able to defend himslef :ph34r: That would work if after the truth on the murder went out Adolin was exiled and run into Szeth. But Adolin does seem as a good potential wielder for Nightblood in my opinion (then again, I don't know too much about Nightblood yet...) Maybe hinting at how hard it is to revive the blade is meant to show as how amazing it is that Adolin manages to do it? As for the first ideal... I think it must be spoken, but it starts to "work" when somebody truly lives by it. So Adolin may say the words in a conversation with Kaladin for example (like, Kal says something related to the meaning of this ideal and Adolin says something along the lines "oh, yeah... life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination, and so on") without putting any meaning behind them and only later start to live by the ideal. I mean, Kaladin repeated the ideal after Teft but didn't truly believe in it, then in the chasms he understood the meaning and then it started to work even if he didn't say the words again (at least that's how I remember it). I like the idea of Blade acting strange... Adolin would think that he keeps miscounting the heartbeats True, he does seem the "main" character. And that's good because I like him If something happens to Dalinar I actually see Kal leading the Radiants - now he's not ready, but after some time (few years...) I guess he will get there. Actually, I already like Jasnah more than Shallan And I see Renarin as having potential to be interesting if he gets more spotlight. I guess I can be attached to them all But as for the current ones, I don't really care for Eshonai, she's not interesting to me. Szeth isn't too much as well. So isn't Navani. But Kaladin, Adolin, Shallan and Dalinar (in this order) are Actually, Martin did kill seemingly the main (or one of the most "main" characters) at the end of Dance with Dragons... And it annoyed me, as that was a character I actually liked quite much And for that one death I don't see a proper reason as for the others... But that may be my opinion. But I agree, his characters were not so well developed as the ones in SA. Maybe because there are so many of them... With him there is usually "ok, this one died but I have 10 or so other characters that I liked on the same level so it's not so bad", while in SA it would be more of a "nooo!! why??!! " Well, the way I understood the book, spren do seem to be driven away form people holding dead Shardblades. Syl did consider those people "bad" (she mentioned how Dalinar became a better person when he gave up Oathbringer), so I guess so would other spren. It's not that the person's goodness means nothing but the spren may be too scared to approach. At the point when they didn't yet form the bond they aren't too intelligent in the physical realm, so they act on instinct. And their instinct says "Shardblades are evil" so they stay away from them and therefore may not even see the goodness in their potantial partner. Stormfather is a whole different matter, as despite the lack of Nahel bond he is perfectly conscious and aware. He chose Dalinar for the visions because it seemed the best option he had and he wasn't too happy to bond him in the end. And I believe it was said that Renarin stopped wearing glasses before he was given a Blade... And to heal his eyesight I think he would have to use stormlight consciously, what indicates a rather developed bond (at least the first oath - that's when Kaladin started to consciously breathe in stormlight).

Granted, but you can't interact with any of the characters. I wish to be an Edgedancer.

Geez, I only just realized how that must've sounded It's not exactly what I meant. I have absolutely nothing against Dalinar living even long after the whole SA has ended. Or even if he died peacefully in the back five, surrounded by loving family. I rather meant that it would be kind of anti-climatic in my opinion if we learned that he died during the time skip. For me it's either we see him in the back five still alive or he dies in book 4-5 a truly heroic death.

Well, definitely it's less fun... I agree but I understant it more as it's easier for them to learn how to use one surge but not necessarily that easier surge becomes their most important or most often used one. As in it's harder to practise one surge, but when one actually masters it, it becomes as natural (or possibly even more) as the first one. I'm basing this mostly on Kaladin, who had troubles mastering gravity (basic lashing to be exact) later can control it with ease. On the other hand it may be that it's harder to master a surge that's related to Shadesmar more closely. I mean, Shallan can use illumination but has troubles with soulcasting which requires her to go to the Shadesmar. Same with Kaladin - before he managed to use gravitation he glimpsed the Shadesmar, but didn't need this to learn how to use adhesion. To keep him as a non-Radiant it would be enough to pretend he's not capable of attracting spren of any Order as he doesn't have the right potetntial, so why hint at his relationship with his Blade? But I agree, Adolin won't resign from fighting in the first line so without some power boost he's unfortunetely a dead meat. I'm under an impression that the first ideal doesn't have to be stated (at least not in a way the others must). My reason: Kaladin spoke/thought the first ideal many times and it had no effect whatsoever until he truly embarced it, believed in it. Besides with the first ideal there was no "special effects" as when he spoke the second or third (burst of stormlight etc.). So maybe there is no need for Adolin to actually speak the words of the first ideal but it will be enough if he started to simply live by them (which he can do unconsciously, without knowing that he's taking up the first ideal of the knights). He could then speak the second ideal on a battlefield still unaware of what he's in fact doing (as WoB has it that the exact words are unimportant, only the idea matters), which would give him a boost of strength or maybe helped him to surgebind a bit (eg. sliding away from enemy's weapon with the ease of abrasion) but he wouldn't actually recognise it as surgebinding, thinking instead that it was luck or something. Then he would realise that his spheres seem to be losing their stormlight somehow quicker and that he's more agile, faster and so on but don't really connect the dots After some time he speaks the third ideal because he felt he should say those words and ta-dah! his Blade comes back to him as a spren Generally that's kind of how I see this - Adolin "speaks" at least two ideals completely unaware that he's on his path to Radianthood. I wouldn't really say that Kaladin is the main character as I'm not sure if that's the case or it's just the impression I have because he had the first book for himself But still, he is the only one who had PoV chapters in every single part of both books (not counting the interludes). As for the character development - I agree, he had and it has still long way to go (I expect him to stay alive at least long enough to finally heal his slave brands... and possibly many years after that too ). As for Dalinar death - of course we don't know yet, but to me it seems as very possible... We just have to wait to find out I also cannot imagine SA without Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan (even if I don't really like her, she plays too vital part in the story to simply be gone... I'm not the kind of person to wish death for characters I dislike), but in my head Dalinar is meant to die an epic, heroic death (not that I would mind much if he survived). Jasnah and Renarin aren't as sympathetic because we have seen too little of them, if they had more spotlight and in Renarin's case at least some PoV's we would become more attached to them. Lift is an interesting character so I want to read some more of her, but I don't care too much about the Heralds, though their flashbacks would give us information about the past Desolations and other interesting things so I guess I can tolerate their books. As long as we won't be presented with another Lightweaver book, we already had one and it's not that interesting order to get two books I hope that in the back five we will still see our favourite characters from the first part in the stories and maybe with some PoV's in the interludes or prologues

I'm afraid Renarin didn't apologize it in the end...

Actually it's about paying respect to the dead, so it's not that creepy... :ph34r: Yeah, consciously he was using adhesion first. But the thing with arrows happened earlier - I'm not sure if the very first time when he ran the bridge (he propably didn't have any spheres on him, but he did somehow miraclously survive), but definitely that time when he helped Hobber and Leyten (the first run when he was the crew leader). Even though he was completely unaware of this. So maybe it is so that one of the surges is easier to learn for the beginner Radiants (adhesion for Kaladin, illumination for Shallan), but I don't think it necessarily means that it's their "main" surge. As for the lashings, those were more or less: Basic Lashing - when you change the direction of the gravity (flying, walking on the walls etc) Full Lashing - sticking things to one another Reverse Lashing - pulling things to one point (eg to a shield, bridge, door frame) Yes, you are right. I guess I didn't make myself clear on what I meant. It is possible that his attachment to his Blade will drive away living spren without reviving the Blade itself. But I think that it wouldn't make much sense story-wise: why build so deep relationship between Adolin and his Blade if this motif is not going to be used as a plot-point? And I believe in Adolin - he can do it I've seen it said somewhere that Fleet and Kaladin are somewhat parallel... But I do hope it won't be the case (though the possibility still exists, unfortunetely). But if Kaladin references this story once again in a life-threatening situation I'm going to get afraid Yes, we don't know how important they will be, but I somehow have it in my head that the current major characters will become less important with the new ones taking their place in the spotlight... But you are right, we cannot say anything for sure. And by Adolin's storyline ending in the book five - I meant the current storyline. As in the whole thing about the murder and his problems within the family (as they are almost sure to occur). I also think that Dalinar will die at the end of book five, so then Adolin will become a new highprince, which will be to an extent the end of his current character arc. The story of Highprince Adolin may or may not be imporatnt in the back five, but I doubt it will be given primary focus.

Years later, the Kholin brothers stood together on the plateau, waiting for the chasmfiend to be weakened and the hunt to begin. Renarin looked at the chasmfiend intently for quite a while, until he turned towards his brother. "I made a terrible mistake few years back", claimed Renarin. Adolin raised an eyebrow. "What about, brother?" "About you looking like the chasmfiend.", admitted the younger Kholin. Adolin frowned a bit, trying to remember what his brother is talking about. Finally something clicked in his mind. Memories of that night were rather fuzzy for him, but he did recall his father and brother mocking him. He grimaced. He certainly didn't want to be reminded of THAT. "So you are going to apologize?" prompted Adolin, hoping to regain his pride. "I guess I must" Renarin shook his head. "I look at this chasmfiend and I cannot really see the resemblance." "Well, of course you can't!" claimed Adolin, glad that his brother won't mock him again. "But it's too far to hear me, I fear" continued Renarin. Adolin gave him a puzzled look, trying to grasp his meaning. "I guess it's not mad or not drunk enough" finished the younger brother, fixing his spectacles. Adolin looked at Renarin, finally understanding that he has been ridiculed again, and opened his mouth few times as if to protest but remained silent, not finding the right words. He just shot his brother a sharp glance and promptly turned his back to him, walking over to chat with some officers. Behind, Renarin chuckled to himself.

The idea is great But don't chickens on Roshar look differently than what we call a chicken? But anyway it's priceless. And Jasnah would look at her cousin and roll her eyes as she's too mannered to do a facepalm "You know, father, I'd say that today Adolin looks like a whitespine." "A whitespine? I just saw him and I could swear he's pretending to be a skyeel!" "You both are ridiculous. There exists NO animal so colourful and so tasteless." [EDIT] Ok, I just saw your new post. And my roommate now thinks I'm crazy Well, I can live with that (Not that she's the one to talk - she laughs at every single horror movie whenever the rest of the audience covers in fear ) Mad chasmfiend rules And Navani, who listened to the whole conversation approaches and says: "Right now you insult all chasmfiends on Roshar, dear Reanrin. Even they don't look like this." (I know my humor isn't too funny today - I have waay to much studying right now, so I procratinate :ph34r: )

Oh, thanks for pointing that out You are right, that's how it went. I guess messing with the gemstones would be propably sucking the stormlight from them (as in accidantially taking the stormlight form the Plate not from other sources).

Actually, all we know is that the group of Envisagers that Teft associated with was destroyed. Even Teft says that there may be more of them somewhere else, but he doesn't know where to look. So it's possible that we will see them again I do have that wild theory that Hesina is an Envisager, but...

Currently, Szeth is not a good wielder for Nightblood (from what I know of the sword, I still didn't have the time to read Warbreaker but I am vaguely aware of what Nightblood is and how it/he works). Especially not while being Naln's follower. Maybe if he gets away from Naln and gain retribution somehow, as in decide not to get revenge on Stone Shamans or not to chase after the Radiants, then he could be correct partner for Nightblood. Personality-wise, Dalinar would be good to temper Nightblood somehow, but that would be a waste of the sword's powers, as he/it should be wield by a warrior ready to kill the Unmade The way I interpret Dalinar's character progression and his conversation with Stormfather, I see that Dalinar will step back from fighting and focus on "uniting" and generally taking care of both Alethkar as a kingdom and the new Radiants. Nightblood needs someone more active in fighting. Kaladin prefers to fight with a spear, not a sword. Besides I doubt he would be able to see eye to eye with Nightblood so knowing Kal he would refuse such a weapon (besides - he has Syl, she won't agree to be left out only for Kaladin to get a more powerful sword, while she can by anything, from spear to shield). And as somebody pointed out - it would be unfair for Kal to get all the goodies Nightblood should come back to Zahel. But since Zahel is not meant to play a big role in SA (I believe Brandon mentioned that somewhere...) it would also be a waste of propably the only weapon that can kill the Unmade. I'd rather see someone (by now it's most possibly Szeth) fighting off the Desolation with Nightblood and at the end the sword being reunited with Zahel. By the way, someone mentioned Kaladin leading the Radiants. Right now, Dalinar is the best possible leader. But I can see Kal leading the Radiants after the time skip (as I think that Dalinar will be dead by then).