Stark

So when Nale says he thinks he's getting worse, and that he doesn't trust his own judgement, we should not trust this... Or maybe I'm being too literal. Any time a Herald is talking about the deterioration of their own mental state and how it scares them, I trust that. But anything they say about how the world works, and what people should be doing that I distrust.

More like Pattern is a Knight Translucent, wielder of the fearsome Shardbranch.

Thank you both @RShara and @Calderis for correcting me and providing solid evidence.

I assumed it was Aluminum. Which likely cannot be manifested in the CS by beads or other methods. So it would have to be physically brought in, and it may mess with the portals a bit. So super rare, super resistant metal in Shadesmar?

What about that time the guy stabbed Spook with a sword through a Pewterarm and a piece broke off in spook, granting him hemalurgic pewter? Pretty sure that the guy trying to stab Spook did not intend to create a spike and grant it to the guy he was trying to stab. Unless I am really, really mis-remembering that scene. Which is possible, because I have not read the Hero of Ages in ages. @Calderis I've read both. My hard copy is the original, my kindle is the update. I can stomach both, either are fine, though the redirect mid-swing seems a little convenient. What I don't like is the revisionism. So I head cannon it as alternate timelines that collapse back into each other in Oathbringer.

As for Elhokar, if you re-read the scene, you will see that Moash pierces him through the chest before he completes the first ideal. As we have seen, power efficiency (See Kaladin in Shadesmar talking about how much more benefit he gets from Stormlight than at the beginning) and healing factor of Radiants tie directly to their order and the number of Ideals sworn. Given that Elhokar had accomplished enough of the first ideal to start glowing, but had not confirmed the oath, his healing factor would be minimal. Moash then stands on his throat and spears him through the eye. And keeps the spear there until the glow goes out. Kaladin watches the glow die. So Elhokar is well and truly dead at that point, his healing factor is expended. As for regrowth, yes, that could be possible, but not probable. No Radiants capable of the Surge of Progression were present. Kholinar has no fabrials capable of that. If they did, we would have a) heard about it, or b ) seen it at the shattered plains, where it would have been most useful. Even if they did have it, it would not be in use,, as it would directly attract the screamers and the Fused. And we would have heard about it in the wall guard, being used to fix wounds taken by the guards. And Odium has no use for that particular proto-Radiant, so I don't see the fused, or Yelig-Nar-Aesudan healing the King she just called a useless fool. So nope. Sad as it is, I can see no path for Elhokar to live, unless someone was present in Shadesmar to grant him CS status. And when our plucky heroes transitioned to Shadesmar, we saw nothing but the spren of Odium. No Cultivation swooping in to save the king that couldn't. Which sucks, it was a compelling redemption arc, or could have been.

@Yata Agreed. This is why I feel, even with time to prepare awakened constructs in advance, Suse still looses in 99.9999% of cases. For many of the reasons you've mentioned, especially regarding the shape changing and strength augmentation from Feruchemy. I had not even thought of leeching the investiture out of an Awakened construct, or compounding oxygen. I outlined the only way I thought Suse had a snowball's chance in the ashmounts to win, and as you saw, it has so many holes, the snowball has a better shot. This is why I concluded that the orders of magnitude for the power of these two contestants is too disparate for the outcome to be contested. Susebron loses. But thanks for thinking points on TLR's powers that I had not considered yet!

In 99.99% of cases, TLR wins. His Allomancy is too strong. He is functionally immortal with Gold. All the metal everywhere gives him a ludicrous home turf advantage. Susebrons only chance is to fully immobilize him off the bat, by either having him tackled by lifeless, or constricted by awakened cloth. If he can pull that off before dying, and deliver a persistent injury until TLR's gold runs out, he wins. But seeing as TLR can still move by steel and iron in Kredik Shaw, that will be nearly impossible to maintain, especially given his Feruchemical and Allomantic strength enhancements. Best chance I see for suse is to show up to the fight with a handfull of lifeless and preawakened objects, with commands along the lines of "At my command, bind my enemies." Once immobilized, dump TLR into an extremely thick Aluminum, water tight coffin. Fill it with water, or concrete, and seal it. Wait three weeks to make sure he is drowned and used all his gold. But the margin for error for that plan is non-existent. Even pulled off perfectly, I see Suse failing more often than succeeding. Move the fight to the Shattered plains, where there is far less metal available, and far less colour, and the fight gets more interesting. TLR still wins most of the time, before getting eaten by a chasmfiend and ripping his way out of its stomach, but taking away all the metal of Kredik Shaw, and Luthadel in general, gives Suse more of a chance. If Suse is allowed to cheat and take the Batman route of planning his approach before showing up to the fight. The problem with this premise is that we are talking about a fight between a super charged individual with a limited mana pool who has lived for fifty odd years, and an individual who ascended to be a sliver before mastering not one, but two complementary magic systems that allow him to be functionally immortal, while being a savant in everything those systems can do, who has had over 1000 years to forget more than his opponent has ever learned. Betting on this outcome would be like betting on TLR vs Odium in a no holds barred match. They are on two entirely different power levels.

I got mine shipped to my inlaws in the states, So I won't see it til their next visit to Canada after it gets delivered. So I hope it gets delivered before they come up for their visit in February. Has anyone gotten theirs yet? Any fun things signed in them, or questions answered? Please let me live vicariously through your pictures of the leathery goodness until I can have mine. I swear I'm not an addict.

I think Malata's 'Frozen' as a derogatory remark is more linked to her bond with spark and her order than her region. Similar to how Starving applies only with Lift, I feel Frozen refers to the abrasive/divisive nature of Dustbringers and their tendency to set things on fire. Given the heat nature of her spren, and how much she seems to communicate with it, frozen as a derogatory seems like it would be a Dustbringer insult for others. Almost if Windrunners called people 'Earthbound', or Lightweavers disparaged people's art, or Jasnah attacking people's logic.

@Weltall Thanks for that insight. That does seem like an extremely fine hair to split, and Hoid is exploiting it fully. But it makes sense that after countless thousand of years of experience, Hoid would be adept at finding loopholes. I fully accept your explanation, while still feeling that, ethically at least, Hoid should have felt more than he did after instigating that reaction. I mean, if we apply school yard logic, the supervising adult would have punished the puncher for punching, but also Hoid for instigating. "You spent twenty minutes annoying him to get a reaction. You got a reaction, what else were you expecting?" Hoid was a few steps short of going full Tyer Durden "I want you to hit me as hard as you can." I guess, I don't mind that Hoid can deliver verbal smackdowns, or refuse to aid people in danger of harm. That's fine, though sometimes morally questionable. But intentionally pushing someone towards action that would cause harm to them or others seems like it should have an effect. Otherwise, nothing really stops Hoid from acting like Hannibal Lecter in the Silence of the Lambs and talking someone into committing suicide. Or harming others. And for me, until we learn more of his geas against violence, who placed, how it was worded, etc, well, I feel that should be a violation of hi precept to do no harm.

So, as has been pointed out in this thread, Hoid cannot intentionally hurt people, but can be hurt himself. This is evidenced by him getting the guy to punch out a tooth in the epilogue. Hoid's intent was to get punched. He got punched. Other than loosing a tooth that will grow back, he suffered no other setbacks. This is extremely interesting to me, because of Hoid's prohibition against harming others. One of the best ways to break your hand is to punch someone in the jaw. You can also get some nice scratches and infections from peoples teeth when you punch them. Often, punching someone in the face hurts. So if Hoid's intent was to provoke a punch, one that would likely hit his face and potentially hurt the puncher with his face, whose intent determines whether or not Hoid has a negative reaction to physical violence? Is it the intent of the man to punch Hoid, causing harm to himself in the process? If yes, than Hoid is fine, he caused no harm through his actions, and can continue. Is it the intent of Hoid, being insulting and jumping the line to deliberately provoke a reaction? A reaction of a magnitude that leaves a tooth knocked out, and the puncher with an injured hand? If so, as Hoid, deliberately and with intent, provoked a violently physical reaction that may have resulted in injury to another living thing as a direct result of Hoid's intent, should Hoid have felt the consequences of harming another? As he used his face to break that man's hand? I would think Hoid, as the instigator of that situation, would have been responsible, in some way, for any harm the man's hand suffered? Or is there a minimum threshold of violence required before Hoid suffers for his actions? Or does the fact that the man could have chosen not to strike Hoid effect the outcome? It could be argued that the man always had the choice, regardless of how provocative Hoid was being (and lets assume that he is uniquely capable of driving people to violence towards his person) to not strike him, and by choosing the path of violence, he absolved Hoid of any harm to himself he may have suffered when striking Hoid? I feel that Hoid should have felt some degree of discomfort, having instigated the situation. Please note: This is not to say that a victim of violence is to blame for the violence visited upon them. This is to say that someone who with willful intent directly antagonizes someone with a goal of inciting violence is in part to blame for the violence and harm that comes as a result of the antagonism, whether directed at themselves or someone else. Normally, it is extremely difficult to prove the intent to incite violence, but in Hoid's case, he made it quite clear he was trying to provoke a certain response.

I'm personally seeing the move by Odium to find the Heralds and shank them to be an attempt to break the Oathpact completely, and prevent Jasnah's proposed strategy of "Find the Herald's, then Kill them" from being effective. As they are Cognitive Shadows, doing something weird by being in the physical realm, not unlike the Returned they can't die the traditional way right? They go to Braize and stay there until one of them breaks, then come back in shiny new bodies. But by trapping them in gems, they can't go back to Braize. So if Odium manages to do this to all Heralds, none of them can fulfill the Oathpact. The door to Braize and the ancient, really crazy singers remains open. Perpetually. Mix that with the Everstorm, and you have a never ending Desolation. Which seems to be the exact result Odium would want. No Heralds, no Oathpact, and an army of Singers that are essentially as unkillable as the Cylons as long as they have a constant stream of new bodies to download into. Scary stuff. As for the Heralds themselves, the Stormfather and Ash gave us more info about them than we've ever had before. The Heralds knew Hoid when he was going around as Midius. Ash cursed by Adonalsium's name. These Cognitive shadows, however they are persisting, are old, which we knew. But they are potentially older still than the conflict on Roshar. They know about the shattering! Granted, as Cosmere aware CSs, it is possible that Hoid and/or Tanavast gave them Cosmere 101 before they formed the Oathpact, but still. They know things. Final thought. Man, my structure is terrible here. Three disjointed ideas with no decent transitions. Ugh. Anyway - Cognitive shadows need something to staple themselves to bodies. Not necessarily their own (more on that in the spoilers), and it in somehow relates to the planet's Investiture type. Roshar - the Fused - They inhabit a gemheart and forcibly conquer the body in a parasitic fashion. I don't believe they are officially confirmed as Cognitive Shadows, but it tracks. Like a certain being helped to stick around by Fuzz, they were extended protection by Odium allowing them to persist as Shadows, known as spren here. We see this when, at the Thaylen city battle, one of them mouths off to Odium about serving a human, and Odium offers to withdraw the protection allowing him to persist. Their host body can be killed conventially if they don't have access to Voidlight healing (see Moash killing Leshwii), a shardblade through the spine/neck/head, or something breaking the gemheart in which they reside. See also: Kaladin stabbing the gemhearts in Kholinar and Thaylen city, and Amaram's artificial gemheart. This leads to: Roshar - The Heralds, and Jezrien's 'death' - I think Tanavast did something like Fuzz and Rayse to the Heralds to allow them to persist, and I think the Heralds have gemhearts. I think, each time they return, they Soulcast new bodies for themselves around a gemstone that they then inhabit (I don't think they would do the parasite-murder of the fused, so this seems like a solid route to take, but I don't know how an essentially bodiless spren of a Herald returning would be able to Soulcast. Clear flaw in my thought). I think this because there must be a way for them to attach to a body, and gemhearts seem to be the way to go on Roshar. I also think this because of Moash stabbing Jezrien up through the abdomen into the heart area, where a gemheart would be, before sucking him into the sapphire cage on the blade. I have no real evidence to prove any of this. Mostly just feelings and conjecture. TL/DR: Odium's goal with Herald assassinations is a Desolation without end. The heralds may not be as old as the shattering, but they are close. The Heralds inhabit masterfully soulcast artificial bodies built around gemhearts to house them.

This. The closest I've seen to this being handled satisfactorily was in WoT, where the pregnancies lasted across a few books. Even then, it was not perfect. Yes, questions were addressed, worries for the future were expressed. But still felt a little tacked on at times. This is a subject that even in contemporary settings brings many questions and changes to a life and lifestyle. In an epic setting, it becomes even more game changing. We saw hints of it, in Dalinar's flashbacks, but from all accounts, he was not a very involved parent until much later in his son's lives. Handling a main character pregnancy is as delicate as handling Kaladin's depression properly. The story cannot become a story about how the character is pregnant, making it the central aspect of their character and development any more than Kaladin could be a character that was only depressed. He needed to be a character who happened to be depressed, and it had to have consequences that were big, but not the only aspect of his character. To clarify, I'm not saying pregnancy and depression are the same thing, or necessarily equatable. I don't think anyone will interpret that from my statement, but I want to be clear. I'm saying pregnancy for a main character has to be handled with as much finesse as depression does, so that it is not the only thing ever talked about the character. Handling it off screen in the gap, would be a cop out. Handling it on screen would have to be done with a level of care that Brandon clearly is capable of. But may not want to. I really think that we will see Shallan and Adolin discuss this in the next book, once its been made clear to Pattern that mating is now acceptable, and decide together that right now, during a Desolation, where both of them are on the front lines is not the right storming time to have a baby. And when they are ready, and I'm certain that they will be, I have no doubt that Brandon will give it the page time it deserves and handle it as well as he handles most subjects.

I had initially thought them the same age, but there were some subtle indications that Wayne is the younger of the two. And then we get the flashbacks where Wayne is about 15 while Wax is in his late 20's or early 30's. I'd have to check the coppermind to get the exact difference. But my first thought was they were the same age. I like it better that Wax was the older figure who took the thieving kid under is wing for redemption rather than just executing him as Miles would have. It adds a degree of hope and compassion to Wax's character that is vital. I suppose, if Wayne was super rich, he could theoretically buy enough Bendalloy to catch up in age, but that would be expensive, as it seems difficult enough to save up to get a few minutes worth of bubble time. I don't think there is enough money, or metal, on the planet to close that age gap. And yeah. I'd love to see the Highprince of Fashion worldhop to Nalthis or Scadrial and experience the fashions there. I see Scadrial, with its Victorian-era-steampunky suits appealing to his military side seeking his Dad's approval, and the typically reserved Alethi sense of Decorum. Nalthis, especially Hallandren, with the vibrant, ludicrously colourful garb and materials? In a more tropical setting, closer to the Reshi Isles? That would be hilarious. So many options to bring back to his tailor. But so much scandal given how exposed everyone is. Highly entertaining.

Come on, if anything, Shallan would have triplets. One for each of her to raise.

All of the above. Plus, Wax would never go anywhere without his guns or his cravat. He went to the Roughs with the cravat. And for them to be there in Dalinar's flashbacks, Wax would have been in his early 20's, and Wayne would have been barely in his teens, at the oldest, depending on the timeline. Which puts it firmly in the established past of when Wax was either a kid, or in the Roughs, and he would have had to explain disappearing from the world long enough to be playing as one of Dalinar's elites. Just does not make any sense. The timeline does not work. The personalities don't work. The appearances don't work. The History doesn't work. The lawman working for the Blackthorn does not work. Too much does not add up. And there was no Cravat. Though now I want a worldhop scene where Adolin gets introduced to Scadrial fashion and debates it with Wax, particularly vis a vis cravats...

While it would be interesting, as we have yet to see any example of how pregnancy affects Investiture use re:spirit web (I remember in WoT that pregnancy affected use of Saidar), I really do not think this is the time to explore it. I won't rehash the previous commentary about neither Adolin or Shallan being ready for having children. I agree, I don't think either of them are there yet, but I hope they will be one day. But asides that, there is the issue that both of them are on the front lines of this conflict. Having a pregnancy, and following that, a dependent, is a bad plan. But beyond that, how would the Investiture react. Stormlight heals you based on your self image. Shallan has three self images, if any one of them views the pregnancy as a risk, or a health issue, there is the potential that the stormlight may terminate the pregnancy prematurely to 'heal' Shallan. If that does not happen, how would the presence of another being growing inside her affect her Connection to Pattern? How would it affect her spirit web? Would it interfere with her ability to access investiture? Would the gestation period in a heavily invested person affect the child? How would Shallan's Nahel Bond affect the child? I don't think Brandon is ready to delve into those questions. I don't think the timing makes sense for those questions to be asked between books. Having that happen off screen between books would seem like a cop-out, and I don't think Brandon would take that route. If he is going to address it, I see it being addressed head on, during the next book, in a planned parenthood style discussion between them, asking a lot of the questions I've mentioned above, that none of the data the characters currently have available, or have referenced addresses. Or, it will be something that happens in between Arc 1 and Arc 2. But again, likely on screen, maybe in a novella, or short story. I don't see it happening in the gap. I don't see it happening in book four. I do see it being discussed in book four. But then, so many things happened in book three that I didn't see coming that I have to ask myself - What do I know anyway?

I'm getting close to the end of my second read through of Oathbringer, and I noticed something on Captain Ico's ship. In the chapter titled "Reachers," Kaladin makes some observations about the spren. Namely the bronze-ish skin they have, and the copper webbing running through the ship, that seems to run pulses of information. Is this a more scientific copper-wiring/electricity based form of communication that the Reachers use? Or, does the Bronze and Copper of the Reachers have any relation to Allomantic Bronze and copper? Here they are using Copper to transmit pulses, that they can detect and interpret through their Bronze skin. On Scadrial, Allomancers use Bronze to detect and interpret investiture pulses. Does anyone more realmaticly savy than me have thoughts to add to this?

My fear is that Odium has it now. Taln showed up at Kholinar which fell, at some point during the Vengeance Pact war, under the influence of three unmade. One of which is considered a force, not a personality.At some point, the blade gets switched, and Taln is shipped off to the plains. And Brandon has confirmed that Wit does not have it. I figure one of Odium's agents, like the queen, took it. They realized that they could not stop the communication going out via spanreed that a crazy, dark-eyed shardbearer had shown up, and that someone, like Dalinar, would want to see him in person to figure out what was going on. They had to send Taln with a blade. Too many people loyal to the Kholins who could give an accurate description of the man to do otherwise. So they swapped the blade with one of the ones that Odium's agents have been collecting since the Recreance. Why do I think this? He was very excited to get Jezrien's blade. If he got the right set of five, he would be able to give a minion access to all ten surges without turning them into a time-bombed gem monster. With Taln's and Jezrien's he would be able to give someone access to four separate surges. And Nale is coming over to his side with the skybreaker sword, giving him a fifth surge (the Dustbringer sword would likely be more interesting to him). I hope I'm wrong, but I think Odium has it.

I hope someone does! Sharders tend to be very friendly bunch, and no one should be lonely surrounded by people who love the same things. Hope you have fun!

You've just discovered the origin of gemhearts I think...

I know this is old, and a little necro-y. But If they were going to do anything VR for stormlight, I would want to be able to get Dalinar's visions as mini VR playgrounds, where you don't always have to follow the same path, much like Dalinar's actual visions. That would be nuts. With Morgan Freeman providing the voice of Honor, of course. Or Liam Neeson.

I think the deduction we are supposed to glean from this implication is that the sphere houses a spren. The question becomes: Which Unmade? Chances are that the one Szeth hid contains the top Unmade, Ba-Ado-Mishram. The one given to Eshonai is interesting - not likely any of the ones we have seen on screen, because it left with her to the shattered plains, so it would not be any of the free ones we have seen. Things went weird in Kholinar before the Everstorm returned, so it likely is not Asherterman, Sja-Anat or Yelig-Nar. Nergoul and Moelach are also out as they were still loose. Re-Shepir was in Urithiru, so also out. So I think Gavilar found the spheres trapping Ba-Ado-Mishram and either Chemoarish or Dai-Gonatharis, the only three who have not yet had screen time. And I don't think that either of those prisons have been opened. Szeth's is in Jah Keved somewhere (Taravangian territory, sadly) and Eshonai's is likely somewhere in the shattered plains, either lost again, or with the listeners that escaped from Narak when Eshonai turned Stormform (most likely).

I honestly think this is the best route for the Cosmere in general. There is no place on Earth that will be able to replicate the alien landscape of the Shattered plains, or Roshar in General. No location will be able to give us the ashmounts and semi-perpetual gloom of Scadrial. Even getting the shadows to be consistent while filming in the desert to replicate Taldain is a ridiculous feat to accomplish. A friend of mine and I have been discussing this. You either get poor replications, ghastly amounts of expensive CGI, or a handful of talented artists to animate the Cosmere. I think this would be the safest way to approach the Cosmere, in animation. You get the landscapes and set pieces, you don't have to worry about finding actors who poorly represent the Cosmere's diversity, you have greater facility showing the violence to the right degree, or not. Same goes for the sexuality, which is not extensive, but is present, especially in Warbreaker. I fear for film or TV adaptations of these books. Animated, or anime adaptations? The idea of those give me a huge sigh of relief. But I don't see the license holders going that route. It would appeal to the core book fans, but if they are trying to get a large televised following of non-readers, it falls into a narrower niche. Storms, I hope I'm wrong and they go animated.