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little wilson

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  1. little wilson
    So when do we want to do this? This week? Next week?
  2. little wilson
    If Kyne is an eliminator, that would make 2 inactives on the eliminator team and both were inactive (though Kas had just barely gone inactive) when Burnt's alignment was rerolled. Maill would practically have to make her an eliminator to balance out the two inactives. If Kyne is not an eliminator, Burnt is less likely to be an eliminator. Yes, Kyne's Plate would vanish from the game, but he's not a good target to kill for strategic purposes. Hence, I would not attack him if I were evil. If you want to know more about that, ask me in the PM.
  3. little wilson
    ....they haven't killed anyone with Plate so how would they already have Plate unless they started with it? Additionally, I don't agree that he's been acting like a bored villager. I find curious that he reappeared exactly when he would've died to inactivity. Sure, he can say it's to bolster the village numbers, but all we have on that is his word. He could just as easily be bolstering eliminator numbers and trying to feign bored-villager mode. It's an easy enough thing to feign. If he really wants the village to win as much as us, then he should start actually contributing to the game. He wasn't around for the middle, but that doesn't mean he can't skim through it and give his thoughts on what's happening now. I don't believe in giving people free passes if they're actually around and able to contribute. No villager who's actually invested in the game at all would act like that. Either he's not invested in the game (in which case he should've just let himself die because inactive villagers are not actually bolstering the numbers, especially when they're not truly inactive) or he's not actually a villager. There's no middle ground there. But let's say that you're right, Nyali, and that I'm evil. So the consensus seems to be 2 eliminators left (though if Kyne is an eliminator, I'm certain that Burnt was rerolled as an eliminator and there are 3 left--this is part of the reason I want to kill Kyne, because it will help affirm Burnt's alignment at least a little bit). So they have Plate from me. We also know that they killed Joe and got his Painrial. So that makes 2 T1D items. You're saying they'd give up a working Painrial to have broken Plate that won't heal for another 5 turns? How does that make sense? Sure, it has a single Shardblade protection, but if a Shardblade got blocked, that basically reveals the other GB, since so few things can block a Shardblade. If it were me, I'd keep the Painrial. The Plate is useless. Well, actually no, if I were on the team, I'd actually make the kill on Kyne, to make his Plate disappear from the game completely. Assuming I'd even attack him at all (which I still don't think I would. There's no point). And seriously. You're saying that I should've let the coin decide which one of Kyne or I to lynch? I like my Plate, thank you very much, and your concern about the GBs attacking someone and getting Plate applies to me as well. I don't want my Plate taking more damage, so you bet I'm going to vote for the other person if I'm suspicious of them at all. Which I am. Just because you've exonerated someone doesn't mean everyone else has. We're free to have suspicions, including suspicions that you don't share. And that doesn't automatically mean we must be evil. That is faulty logic.
  4. little wilson
    Nyali, bare in mind that it's probable that Mark would have Plate. The GB's know that Mark and I killed DC, thanks to DC's deathcry, so one of us would've got his Plate. If Mark and I want the Plate to work, we have to leave the T1D action open, otherwise, its protection doesn't do anything. The only actions they could viably redirect in that case if they want to target Mark are his T1A action or his T2 action. Also, Burnt. Kyne. This is mostly for metagaming purposes, since an Orlok, Kas, Lopen team would likely include a newer player (of which I suspect Sheep far more), and a fairly new-ish player (or someone who's played somewhere between 3-7 games), which Kyne fits. And yes, I'm aware that he won't die, due to the Plate. This at least leaves him open to an attack though, if Stink wanted to take him out with his Grandbow.
  5. little wilson
    You missed Sheep and Kyne, Burnt. Also, I'd think there's 2-3 left. Not just 1. If there were only 1, that would make a 4 player team in a 28 player game, with the village starting with 3 Soulcaster, 2 Shardblades, and at least 1 Grandbow (possibly 2). Plus at least 1 Artifabrian (probably 2). That's a huge amount of power. I highly doubt they'd only have 4. 5-6 is far more reasonable for a 28 player game. Which means out of the 10 players (I believe) left in the game, 2-3 are evil and 7-8 are good.
  6. little wilson
    I changed my mind about you less than 48 hours after I said that to you. My logic behind my reasoning when I thought you were good was faulty. I thought it your emotions were genuine, hence the tunnel. What I forgot (and someone else reminded me of) was that you'd been attacked and were kind of "dead" for 2 hours. Regardless of your alignment, the emotions there will still be there, and will be easy to channel across an alignment change. So that emotional pull with the tunnel would hold true, but it doesn't mean that you are Noble still. I didn't inform you of my change in thought because if you're Noble, you don't really need to know, and if you're Ghostblood, it's best if you keep thinking I trust you. But there were people who were aware that I didn't trust you. Mark is one of them. El was another. Mark was actually the one who asked the question that got me to rethink things and put you back at neutral.
  7. little wilson
    Whoa now. You must've missed when I said that this attack that just got blocked cleared my paranoia on you. I completely agree that that takes things a step too far and that yes, you're basically completely cleared now. My post was about why I didn't trust you last night, hence the Blade not going to you. I didn't know about the attack so to judge me now based on my thoughts then is irrelevant. The attack changes things, but it hadn't happened. Maybe I didn't make that clear enough. My explanations were based on why I did what I did how I did. That is all. But do I still think that way? No. Should I have passed you the Blade? Yes. Was my paranoia unfounded? Yes. Does the unfoundedness of that paranoia make it any less relevant to the discussion right now? No. That is what I was trying to convey.
  8. little wilson
    Okay. It's about time I get around to closing this game up. First, my final thoughts. For the most part, I think the game worked well. There are just a couple of things I'd tweak for a rerun. The Apothecary Bloodless were too cheap and too available. Running it again, I'd probably increase the prices for the Bloodless and the Gram considerably. Like, the Bloodless would be about 10 talents and the gram closer to 15 or 20. That would make the Skindancer attack more effective since there wouldn't be so many Skindancer-protections around. The Lodgings I think there might need to be one more lodging location, just to spread the prices out a little more. I also think the Mews should have a +2 insanity bonus, to make it so if you lodge there, you will be risking insanity, regardless of if you've gone into an arcane field or not. I didn't like how 80% of the players lodged at the Mews and most of them were at no risk of insanity. I'd want to make such cheap lodging more of a risk for players, since risk/reward is very much a theme for this game (or it should've been anyway). Besides the Mews, though, I thought the other locations worked great. DC stayed in Anker's most of the time he was sane, and he had a number of actions that got cancelled due to his lodging at Anker's. The Golden Pony didn't really see much action, but the Horse and Four. Stink would've been expelled ages earlier if he hadn't been staying at the Horse and Four as much as he had been. There were a number of turns where he had 1-2 votes on him, and they got cancelled out due to the -1DP, so he didn't go On the Horns. He lucked out a lot. Wonko could've avoided being expelled as well, if he'd been lodging at the Horse and Four. And actually, that might be another thing I would change. Switch the bonuses of the Golden Pony and the Horse and Four. With how easy it was to go on the Horns and how potentially harmful that could be, making it slightly cheaper to avoid that might not be a bad thing. And then it would make the protection more expensive, which works. I'd probably up the chances to 50% rather than 25% though. To make it more beneficial with that higher cost. Fae Lore This was way OP. I'm not sure how I'd change it, but it definitely needs to be changed. I'm thinking maybe making it so actions where you're just performing an action and not trying to get information don't bring back info. You just know if you did it or not and who you targeted, but not if it was successful. Only the information-gathering ones, where you target a specific person to learn something about them (like School Records) would have a more specific result. That would make it so Fae Lore can still block--perhaps even block all actions--but the Archivist won't automatically know who is or isn't a Skindancer if they know someone used an action. Other than those little bits, I think most of the game went pretty well. I wish more players had become Masters, or that Hael had been able to destroy R/L, but all-in-all, I think it was a good game. With these adjustments, I think it would help a lot (particularly the Bloodless/protection one). And that wraps up LG18. Thanks everyone for playing! The Skindancers played a great game, and so did the Students. I loved the Naming actions that Wonko and Lopen did there at the end. I wish that Wonko had figured out that he could target Students in the University with Wind while he was expelled but I'm quite content with the way the events there at the end played out. Also, thank you to everyone for being so forgiving to the mistakes made (I'm looking at you, Burnt. ). This was a massive game, and we tried our best, but sometimes, we messed up. Which brings me to my fellow co-GMs. I cannot thank Orlok and Aonar enough for helping me run this. I wouldn't have been able to do this without you two, especially not there at the end. So thank you both a hundred times over (and more). As always, if you have any game ideas, feel free to post them in the Art of Game Creation thread to get feedback on them. If you'd like to try your hand at GMing, either post in the General Rules thread or PM me, Alv, Meta, or Gamma, and we'll get you added to the list and to the relevant GM PM group. You can also see if you can co-GM a game with someone else, to get experience without running a game all by yourself. Whatever works for you. Thanks again for playing and hope to see you back on Temerant when Elbereth reruns this game sometime in the next year (probably).
  9. little wilson
    You're right. I gave the Blade, and my reason for doing so is because you made some comments during the day turn last time that really didn't sit well with me. I'll get to those in a bit here. I never said I knew Stink was the thief. I said he was the only one who knew for certain that I had an Emotion Bracelet, that I couldn't trust wasn't the thief. There's a big difference between the two. One requires certainty which I did not have. The other was evidence that was indicated that he was the thief. I didn't tell El that I had a Bracelet. She knew I had another Tier 2 item, but there's no way she could've known if it was an Alerter or a Bracelet, and I really didn't think a thief would take the chance of attempting to rob someone who could well have an Alerter and not the item they're trying to take. That seemed just a little foolhardy. I'm sorry. I had my first ever panic attack on Thursday afternoon and I learned that the after-effects stick around for an extra day. I was also dealing with the causes of said panic attack. Yes, I was more active the previous night. The previous night was also 24 hours longer, and while I had a bit of real life stuff going on, it wasn't to the degree of what's happened the last 48 hours. And I'm not apologizing for putting real life ahead of the game and not planning with you last night. I was barely even on the site during the night or the last half of the day. It wasn't because you were asking about items. It was because I wasn't sure of your aligment, but I'd just told you exactly what I had. The only other people who knew that were people I knew weren't the thief due to having other roles or essentially proving that they were highly unlikely to be neutral. You didn't have that guarantee. And that night, my bracelet got stolen. Now. Why didn't I pass the Blade to Nyali? This post, coupled with her explanation of how she plays when evil. She likes to make it logically impractical for her to be considered evil. The fact that she replied to Kyne immediately after he posts saying that he's not really paying attention to the game, and he doesn't know who to suspect or anything like that (and basically says that he's not going to pay further attention because it's too far in) seemed like a way to further showcase how useful she's been to everyone. Had it been someone else saying it, it wouldn't have triggered anything. But coming from her? Not so much. Furthermore, there were her comments about Burnt. Burnt wasn't cleared. Burnt had made actions that showed that the person who made those actions was highly likely to be cleared, but those actions had not yet been connected with Burnt herself until later. After she was rerolled. So Nyali seemed to be making such a big deal about Maill potentially changing the alignment of someone right when we cleared them. He didn't. He potentially changed the alignment when we could've mostly cleared them. And what was he supposed to do there? Kill her permanently? That's hardly fair for her. Keep her as a GM-confirmed Noble and watch a LG4 happen as everyone rallied around her and she controlled the rest of the game since had a Grandbow and could exact "justice" on anyone who didn't want to follow along with a dictator? I think not. He had to reroll her and he had to make it an even chance for her to be either alignment. But you're the only one who'd been insistent that she must be Noble still. Why? I started wondering if maybe it was because she trusted you and you had such a good in now for information. Lastly, your "logic" about who must've performed the kill on Seonid. You missed two people. Yourself and Burnt. Either of you could've also done it. No one pain knifed you. No one used an EB on you. You have 3 action periods and you could've used one of them for the kill. Just like me, Macen, and El. Now, why didn't I say any of this during the day? I didn't even see the latter half of the day posts until I got home that night after the rollover. I'd been with a couple friends and they were talking me through the last bits of the panic attack I'd had. I also happened to be out of internet range, and I honestly didn't care about the game at that point in time. I didn't trust you, and I was worried that if I gave you the Blade and you were a GB, you'd be free and clear to go on the spree you'd held back from earlier while you were gaining our trust. I couldn't use my Spanreed to start a new PM with Mark and Twei, because I'd been under the impression that if I used my T1A action to pass the Blade, it could be stolen--something that I'd mentioned the previous night. And since I was either at work or asleep for most of the night turn, I didn't have the time or the inclination to keep up with multiple PMs. I was pretty sure you or Burnt was a Ghostblood, and while I was obviously wrong about you due to your being attacked, I'm still not inclined to think I was wrong about Burnt. She probably is. So why did I pass the Blade to the person I passed it to? The only two people who could take it were people I wasn't sure could be trusted with it. That meant someone outside of the trust group. Out of those people, Zas struck me as the one most likely to be Noble, due to something El called my attention to in the very early stages of the game (this was actually the reason she trusted Zas the most). So I passed it to him, and said what I did in the PM to see how you and/or Burnt would react. If either of you were a GB, you'd know that you didn't use a Soulcaster on me, and I was pretty sure your reaction would be telling in that regard. Unfortunately, I didn't count on making a mistake with the order of actions, so the reactions didn't actually tell me anything (though Burnt's quick jump to immediately distrusting Zas was interesting. Even if the GB's had actually redirected me, why in the world would they actually have me give the Blade to one of their own when they'd know that I would know who the Blade went to? That makes no sense). I was going to vote for you Nyali, but knowing that you were the one attacked removes that paranoia about you. Instead, I'm voting Burnt.
  10. little wilson
    Action 2 Larna Wilson is hiring an accountant to perform an audit on House Wilson's finances to learn where money, as opposed to goods, comes in and leaves. Action 3 Larna and Weyr are trying for an heir. If male, Worrek. If female, Tamre.
  11. little wilson
    He definitely had a house on Sel, considering how much time he spent there.
  12. little wilson
    Wasatch. But I wasn't hiking or anything. I was just at a friend's house.
  13. little wilson
    Sorry for not voting during the day. I had some real life things come up and I by the time those things cleared up, I did not have any connection to the internet ( due to being in the mountains).
  14. little wilson
    On Sunday, I applied for 5 jobs. On Monday, one of them contacted me to set up an interview for the very next day. After a bit of finagling with my current full-time position, I was able to get the day off so I could go to this interview (it's about 30 miles away from where I currently live) and also go to two doctor's appointments. The interview went very well, I thought. And at the end of it, she said that they interview 20 applicants each day and call back the top 5 later that same day to set up the second round of interviews. She said if I don't hear back between 4-6 that afternoon, I'll know they've gone a different direction. So I don't have to sit around wondering about it for 2 weeks. Excellent. Well, I got a call back. I wasn't able to answer my phone at the time, but this morning when I talked to her, she told me that I was one of the top 4. So that's cool. And they scheduled the second round tonight, after I get off work. These guys move fast and I love it. I'd also really like to work for them too. Seems like an excellent position for me. But moving on. One of my doctor's appointments yesterday was with a hematologist. I'm iron deficient. Last month, I was iron deficient bordering on anemia. To give some perspective, most people's ferritin levels in their blood iron stores is around 80. The low end of the normal range is 20. I was at 4. The energy that I thrive on was practically nonexistent, and had been for months. But I started taking iron supplements according to the doctor's suggestion and went back in last week to get a blood test. My ferritin level is at 20. I'm in the normal range! And I can feel it. I have so much more energy than I did. And the funny thing, this is just the low end of the normal range. If I keep taking these supplements, in 2 months, I could be at 60, or maybe even 80, and then I'll have so much energy I literally won't know what to do with it all. I can't wait.
  15. little wilson
    Yes. I had something stolen from me last night, and I suspect I'll have something stolen from me again tonight. I have an educated guess on who the thief is though, and I suspect they're helping the Ghostbloods, so that's fun.
  16. little wilson
    Huh. That was unexpected. Lopen.
  17. little wilson
    Artifabrians aren't the only roles though. The Spy is another role, and a Spy being redirected back to himself is completely worthless. He already knows how many items and what items he has, so he gains virtually no information except that he was redirected. That's it. This way guarantees that the information gathering roles are still able to gather information, even if it's not the information they were looking for. And the artifabrian will still know exactly who got that item, because they'll be told. It makes the most sense and is the most useful way to use the soulcaster without crippling a role completely.
  18. little wilson
    Action 1: Marriage contract with Tekiel. Jordek is marrying into House Tekiel, to Olivia Tekiel. Action 2: Marriage contract with Izenry. Larna is marrying Weyr Izenry and staying in House Wilson to become the Lady of the House.
  19. little wilson
    So two nights ago, two people sent me Spanreeds. Joe and someone else. I've already mentioned this in the thread, but if that second person is a Noble, I'd really appreciate it if you could let me know in our PM. If you don't, I'll have to assume it was a Ghostblood spanreed that they were trying to get rid of. This is kind of important even if it doesn't seem like it is. I assume the person is still alive, since that's information that should probably go in a deathcry. If you could let me know, that would be much appreciated. Thanks!
  20. little wilson
    Thank you, Mark, for starting up this vote idea. Even if one of the vigilantes doesn't kill the final decision, the fact that there's at least some discussion going on beyond just this duel is a very good thing. We cannot afford to let discussion stagnate. My vote goes on Trelagist. To see my reasons, refer to this post. They are unchanged. For a shortened version, basically, I feel like he's using the deathcries to excuse his attack on me, particularly since those same deathcries he points to give no foundation for any of their accusations. For one, none of those players have ever played with me before (except HS, but that was a single game in which I was severely limited on time), so they have no prior knowledge of my normal playstyle (though I suppose I can take all the accusations to mean that my normal playstyle is like an eliminator. Alrighty. Good to know). Additionally, none of them, besides Luna had any item that would give them information, and I would bet all of the items I have in my possession that Luna didn't see anything suspicious. Therefore, they are Nobles who have no more information than we ourselves have. To kill based on those unfounded accusations is just an attempt to shunt the responsibility of killing someone to someone else. "Oh, I didn't realize they were a Noble! Confirmed Nobles were saying they were suspicious!" Sorry. That won't fly here. In fact, it honestly just sounds like an easy way for a Ghostblood to make a kill and not face any repercussions from that kill.
  21. little wilson
    Yeah, because I didn't care to talk to the person being ultra-aggressive in a way that really irritates me. I decided that I would ignore you for the rest of the game because I don't like how I respond to ultra-aggression. I was being preventative, because I knew if I kept butting heads with you, Meta would have to intervene. You may not understand why I'm so ticked off at you, but that doesn't lessen the very fact that I am. Be condescending all you want with your comments about "Why you even mad, bruh?" But it doesn't matter, because the fact is, I am, and you don't care. I know you don't care, so why even bother trying to play the game with you? EDIT: Burnt, I already explained why I reacted that way. You said you were in a tunnel. In my experience, discussing tunnels with the person in a tunnel doesn't get anywhere due to confirmation bias. I decided that if you were really set on tunneling, I wasn't going to bother defending myself in a PM with you, but rather in the thread with everyone. There's a difference. You then explained that you were still open to other views and trying to understand what may have happened, so clearly the tunnel wasn't as much of a tunnel as you'd initially stated that it was.
  22. little wilson
    Eh, well, thanks to DC, what I was trying to do isn't going to work now anyway. I have Plate, which took a hit last night. The Plate is the reason I was being as active as I was. I was trying to bait the Ghostbloods into attacking me. Instead, Trel attacked me and damaged my Plate (though I'm not certain he's not a Ghostblood, so my gambit may have worked. Who knows?). I was hoping to not reveal my Plate so I could still get my plot to work, but it looks like, depending on the likely results of this duel, that my Plate will be Shattered from the lynch. I really don't see why you've been gunning after me as hard as you have DC. I was willing to ignore you for the rest of the game, because you're still pissing me the hell off. But fine. If it's a duel you want, it's a duel you'll get. DeathClutch.
  23. little wilson
    Okay, now that I'm off work and can reply to each of these appropriately... Sure, they do. I would've said the same thing three weeks ago, but after having watched the 48 hours of the Championship I watched, I noticed a number of things about their accusations of other players. Namely, that they speak in absolutes. For example, one of the people there said that Hael was definitely mafia. This player had been aggressive the entire previous cycle and, refusing to set forth any evidence for Hael's being mafia, he said that he bet all of his town cred on Hael being evil. Guess what? Hael wasn't. The important thing to notice here is that in this game, it's practically impossible to absolutely, 100% confirm somebody as being a Noble or being a Ghostblood (at least, if you don't spot them making the Ghostblood kill). If yafe or Luna had any true, valid suspicions on me, with evidence to back them up, they would've mentioned it in their deathcry. But they didn't. (I'll get to yafe's spanreed comment in a bit) I would assume this is correct, as I was not informed that I was attacked. Except that they have literally no evidence. You're basically shooting people based on someone else's suspicions, and while they're confirmed good, it doesn't they're confirmed right. There's a difference. A very, very big difference. Yes, I still have that Spanreed. I have not gained any other Spanreed since then. The Spanreed I'm using was passed to me, by Joe, on Night 2--and actually, while I'm on this topic, I've already informed a few people during the night about this, but 2 people passed me Spanreeds on Night 2. Joe has confessed to being one of those. I'm not sure who the second is, but if you could tell me in my PM with you, that would be excellent. If you stay quiet, I will have to assume that the second Spanreed came from the Ghostbloods, trying to get rid of their Spanreed. That second Spanreed is gone, no longer in the game, since I couldn't hold two of the exact same item at once. Moving past that, if I'd killed the thief (which I didn't), I would've received a spanreed at the start of this day turn. Not last day turn. The thief just barely died. Yet, I was PMing last night. So obviously I had a Spanreed. That I could use. Now, onto the thief's death. I know exactly how killed the thief and got that Spanreed. I'm not going to say who it was--I'll leave that up to them--but I didn't get that Spanreed. They did. Beyond that, even if I had killed the thief, the thief died to a Grandbow. Not the Ghostblood kill. So why does the Spanreed have any relevance to my guilt or innocence? A clue: it doesn't. We already know that the Noble Soulcaster redirected Orlok's item creation to Trel, giving him the Grandbow he was making, which Trel proceeded to shoot me with. If I had a Grandbow, I either started with it, or an Artifabrian who isn't Orlok, made it for me. So why does that make me suspicious? Conclusion: Yafe doesn't know what he's talking about. Likely because he didn't read the rules completely or hasn't kept up with the game as much as he probably should've if he's going to go around making grand accusations like that. I'm going just going to say right now that Luna didn't see anything suspicious. Wanna know why? Because Night 1 I heired someone and I used an item--and I've already informed a couple of people exactly what that item was, what I did with it, and the results. There was nothing suspicious about my use of that item. Night 2, I turned on my temporary spanreed. That was it. That was actually exactly what I did last night as well. I guess if turning on a spanreed makes me a Ghostblood, then lynch me. Last time I checked, it was killing somebody with the Ghostblood kill that's the real indicator. Or being caught with suspicious items--which I don't have. That's another thing: there are people who know exactly what I have right now. I'm not going to announce my items here and now, but I've got nothing to hide. I do not understand the accusations coming down on me from the deathcries, because I've done practically nothing this game beyond PMing people. That's it. It's not possible for anyone to see me doing anything suspicious because I haven't done anything suspicious. Next time, Trel, that you want to attack somebody based on an unfounded deathcry, you might want to get some evidence to back it up, otherwise, you'll just end up looking like you're making an excuse to kill somebody, which is exactly what I would expect the Ghostbloods to be doing.
  24. little wilson
    I disagree with all of this. First, that breakdown is just pedantic for a game like this. Of course Maill isn't going to specify in the OP that there could be multiple thieves in the game. It's all based on distribution, which is all based on how many people sign up and how much of a troll Maill is feeling like at any given moment (hint: that's a lot. Maill often feels like a troll). Labeling the thief win con as "thief" rather than "thieves" is also just a clearer way of saying that the thief is by himself. Regardless of how many thieves there are in the game--from one to twenty--each individual thief can only win by himself. He is neutral and cannot win with any other thief. The first game did only have one thief. But the first had 8 players less than this game has. We can safely assume that the distribution will not be the same as the first game. Since we can't guess at his distribution, the best we can do is use what evidence we have to figure it out. If we accept that I am telling the truth about my one-cycle spanreed being stolen (which DC has corroborated by saying that Elk stole that one), and we accept that DC is in turn telling the truth that his spanreed was also stolen, and if we assume that a thief isn't going to steal an item twice with no reason, there is evidence for two thieves. One of which is dead. The other is very much alive and very willing to take what you have. I do not think it is wise to believe that you are safe. Even if one of us is lying for some reason, it's still better to be paranoid and assume another thief is out there even if one is not than to assume the one and only thief is dead and get lax and make things easier for the thief who is still alive.
  25. little wilson
    I just assumed it was, since my PM with him closed and he didn't really have any reason to give it away.
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