teknopathetic

It also comes short after Gavilar says "What are you?", which I think is another indication that there has been some hoodwinking going on.

If the voice is to be believed, they never had a bond: "I am not your errand boy. We have no Bond. You are my tool Gavilar."

I hope we one day learn more about the Potter who also was receiving visions from someone. The poor guy got death-rattled, but I wonder if there is more to his story,

We don't know what happened, Frustration. We simply don't. Maybe Ishar did touch Gavilar once to make a connection. Maybe Ishar changed his plans and didn't put in the work to build the bond. Maybe ishar was in the Cognitive realm standing right next to Gavilar. Perhaps Dalinar being actually bonded changed something. Until we KNOW what happened, we cant discount these things. Or maybe it is another deity or force at work. But we dont have enough information to disprove Ishar. But I think I need to stop interacting with you on this forum, Frustration. I don't think we see eye to eye on how to theorycraft or what constitutes proof or counter-evidence. From now on I think I need to step away. Enjoy the journey! If you are correct, good work =)

I support you Nameless! If we have Odium using Moash to make a connection bridge to Kaladin, then we know there are some fun things people can do with connection. Even SP4 shows us some things people can do with connection that we didnt know about. I really dont think we know enough about what Heralds are, how the Oathpact works, or what ancient fabrials are out there, what Nightwatcher/Cultivation boons might do (Lift), what Cultivation wants, what Offworld magics might be around (seons), what Spren can do, how potential bondsmiths are found (the potter), or what Honour's death did to really discount anything here. Connection is something we are learning about bit by bit, and is not something we understand. No one has ever explained it to us, so I dont think we are in a position to say "that isnt possible". We are just not knowledgable enough to say what is possible with connection. We have examples of connection in other worlds not requiring touch but instead physical location, so let's not close the door on what is possible just yet. However, I do think we have enough hints with Odium, Moash, Noadon, "Unite them", Hoid-Kaladin, and Lift to say that there are many more options concerning the visions that we currently understand. The visions are demonstrably something other people have access too, and connection-lines are demonstrably something people can manipulate and utilize in various ways. "We haven't seen it yet" is not good counter evidence when our main Bondsmith has learned barely anything about his powers and when we know there are things being done with bonds well beyond our understanding so far.

If Chana is the dead herald, I think we should talk about what the Bright Light Shallan and her father see was. What did Lin put into the safe? Why did he act so quickly to lock the item up? When I first put the Chana theory forward, my main point was that the Bright Light in the safe did not make any sense and that I did not believe that Shallan just hallucinated the whole event. That was the key element that snapped the theory into my mind. When we learned about Shallan's first spren and her trip to the garden, I was then 100% sure something magical was indeed put into the Davar safe (and not just a regular shardblade). Shallan knew Testement was in the garden, so her belief that the blade was also in the safe just didnt make sense. Something was wrong with that narrative, and to me her idea of a "soul" in the safe made the best sense. I got a lot of "it is just the blade" on my original Chana post, but I would like to stress that this bright light was the key component to me making this theory. Something was put into that safe that could not be a shardblade. It was something that glowed somewhat like a dawnshard or the aural-light Dalinar seen when listening to Jasnah resite the Way of Kings at Gavilar's funeral. What was that "soul" Shallan remembers being placed into the safe? If Shallan infact killed a herald, then the light is almost certainly something real. 1) Is it possible Lin knew Chana was a herald and somehow locked her Soul into an alluminum safe? Do we ever hear when the safe was opened? I wonder if Chana was locked in there for a time and then was released at some point (maybe when the Davars fled the estate or some earlier time I am forgetting?). It is also possible the soul slowly leaked out just like with Jezrian. I do prefer the idea that the safe had been prepared for a purpsose though. Lin seemed to act with quick reflexes to lock the item away in the safe. 2) Another idea is that Ba Ado Mishram was hidden inside Chana. ThIs would mean that Chana had an unmade gemstone inside of her, and that the dark influence inside the Davar estate was that influence leaking out into the household. No one would ever think to look inside a herald for the gem, so that is the best place to hide it. Lin would have known this, and he held on as long as possible as the influence poisoned him. I think Wit provides some evidence for this. Wit knows there is a Dark Force influencing Shallan. Maybe Wit is one of the people who knew where Ba Ado Mishrim was hidden and was therefor able to provide support to Shallan to fight back that influence. 3) It could be the Chana's herald blade as well, if it was actually a blade. Maybe the Herlad blade appeared and Lin stuffed it away in the safe so no one would find it. Those are the three ideas I have had for what is in the safe. It could be something else, but I am now 120% convinced the glowing light placed in the safe is something important.

Oh fair enough! There goes that theory haha

Szeth was training with the Shardblades, right? Maybe he saw a herald's blade return, but then that fact was covered up? The Stormfather/faker says "they cannot know", so maybe a cover-up was made to buy more time, and Szeth was made truthless. edit: I meant return to Chana, so disappear from Shinivar edit 2: it is late and my timeline for this makes no sense. This can’t be true.

What I am saying with these is that there are multiple ways. If we had never seen Lift slide into a vision, we would all say it isnt possible. I think we should be opened minded when it comes to a Herald. Who is to say Ishar isnt using a connection fabrial? We know there are ways to use surges without a blade, so we cant take "how does he connect" as counter evidence. A herald simply has too many resources for us to discount when we consider fabrials and adapted arts. Maybe the herald of Bondmsiths is connected to potential bondsmiths. Who knows? Someone saying Kelsier uses a shapeshifting invisible Seon to pose as himself offworld would have been laughed out of the room 2 years ago. I think we have to let Gods be godly here and there. What we know is that something is very off with the Stormfather. If it is a fake, then there is a way to fake it. If Brandon wanted it to be a fake, there would be a way to do so.

There are likely many ways. I assume the Herald of connection would be very very in the know about what is possible, be it in-world magic, off-world magic, using spren, or using other forms of connection. I dont think not knowing is proof against here. How does Dalinar get a vision from Noadon? How does Khal meet Tien? How does Hoid connect with Khal in the Braize vision? How does Lift get into the Visions? There are a lot of connection things going on on Roshar that dont have full explanations yet.

1. I would add the phrasing. The Stormfake says some really weird things like calling Gavilar a “tool” or saying the StromFaker will create a place for endless warfare. Those are all very weird things. 2. Also, the StormFaker lies multiple times. I feel Syl would be horrified to learn her Father would lie to someone. Syl seems to think lies are very far from Honour. I could see the Stormfather rumbling uncomfortably at a lie, but I could never see him knowingly make one (especially so frequently and with no remorse) 3. attention is drawn to the fact in text that sometimes the StormFaker seems like a human man and sometimes like a spirit. This could be an intent reference to him sometimes interacting with the OG father and sometimes with the Faker 4. Syl had interacted with the Stormfather on screen as well, and the Syl Stormfather is exactly like the Dalinar Stormfather. Every Stormfather we have seen has been consistent. Only this one, which is strange in maybe 8 different levels, is off. It is convoluted to assume the Stormfather made a 180* personality flip in 6 years. Every indication is given that the Stormfather we see has different motives, manifestations, personality traits, and even manifests differently.

Because he decided to be his own godking in Tukar exactly in the same year. Ishar had to up his timeline when another heard died (as is said in the text). I think whatever his plan was with the Stormfather/Gavilar stopped being a workable option and it would take too much of his time in comparison to other needs. When that herald died, the StormFaker immediately turn in Gavilar and changes strategic direction We also don’t know what the goal was overall with Gavilar. It is hard to say if Dalinar was in the way or buying time for Ishar Plus, maybe the trick wouldn’t work when someone actually bonded the stormfather. There actually wasn’t too much time between the visions and the bonding. Basically, a lot changed when a herald died. We see the Stormfaker change their plans almost immediately after months of not years of work on Gavilar. At this exact same time we see Real Ishar become a god king and effectively take the role of the Alethi War King in Tukar

We have our motive for why Ishar would hijack the visions and get Gavilar to unwittingly betray humanity! I think you’ve added the biggest missing peice. If you combine this with the StormFaker’s desire to make new heralds, it is almost undeniable. Te Stormfather of Syl, Kal, and Dalinar have never shown any such intention. Ishar has shown such an intention.

I think the Stormfather even says "I never liked Ishar"

The StormFaker says that they are not bonded yet in the Prologue.

Perhaps a magical connection of souls to a Bondsmith herald might have some nifty effects? I think we need to be a little more open-minded here about what a God-Herald famous for being crafty might be capable of. If the Stormfather acts differently, talks differently, has different motivations, is shown to have a different human aspect, and is even described as being weirdly inconsistent by Gavilar, the most likely explanation is that this is a different entity. Every aspect of this StormFaker is different. What is that shiny spren light? Even if it is regualr stormfather, why is it not there sometimes? That is a clear difference from Dalinar's version. Why did we never hear anything like "son of honour" nor any "rumbling" etc etc. None of the Storm-ism ever occurred. And he lied! A lot! Syl HATES lies, and she is the ancient daughter. Lying is not of Honour, and this Stormfather is very into lying. In my opinion, it is much more work to explain a theory where these are the same two Stormfathers. There are just way way too many red flags here for it not to be something the reader is supposed to pick up.

It seemed as if the StormFaker got some kind of boost when the herald died? I am thinking something like when a certain mistborn character dies and get a bit of a flash of insight.

Here is my large post on it. [Theory] Taln Wasn't the Herald Who Broke; It Was Chanarach - Cosmere Discussion - 17th Shard, the Official Brandon Sanderson Fansite We also have CrossenuUp showing that she died almost, if not exactly, at the same time. On 2/6/2021 at 9:58 PM, CROSSENuUP said: After reading this and doing some investigating I think that Shallan's mom is Chanarach. If you look at the picture of Chanarach and read the description of Shallan's mom they are very similar. Also, I had a theory that the breaking of Chanarach (after her death as Shallan's mom), not Taln, is what brought about this last desolation. Brandon is often quoted as saying that the desolation process started going down once Gavilar died so I looked up the dates of Gavilar's death and Shallan's mom's death. THEY WERE THE EXACT SAME MONTH.

Why does the Modern Stormfather seemingly have no interest in making new Heralds, then? That is a pretty stark mission change. We also have Syl and Kal's interactions with the Stormfather, and those also do not match well with Gavilar's version.

It would be very cute if Ishar was standing in the Cognative realm and doing Shadow Puppets into the Physical.

Another connection to Ishar being the Stormfaker: Coppermind: The nations of Tukar and Emul have been in the state of on-and-off conflict for centuries, with the main point of contention being the city of Sesemalex Dar.[10] The latest iteration of this conflict was Eighty's War, which at the time of the True Desolation had been going on for six years.[11] The war was likely initiated by the Tukari god-priest, Tezim, who came into power around the same time. Six years? Isnt that exactly when the Vengence pact started? This really lines up with Ishar IMO. Ishar abandons the Kholin's and decided to be his own God-King in Tukar. Those dates are near exact. It explains why Ishar suddenly goes active. He lost Gavilar and knows that a herald has died. Ishar has to move fast because his timeline got messed up.

So what is your view on this, @Frustration? I dont understand what the "this is the Stormfather" side is suggesting. Could you clarify? To me it seems very clear we are not seeing Dailnar's Stormfather, but I could be wrong. Would you be able to say what you thought since you are sure the Stormfathers are one and the same? If this truly is the Stormfather, is he a double agent? Is the Stormfather lying to Dalinar? I dont understand how Dalinar's version can be rectified with Gavilar's unless the Stormfather is tricking a lot of people in a lot of ways. If these are the same Stormfathers, then Dalinar is in a lot of trouble. To be honest, the Stormfather being evil would be an incredible twist, but I dont think that is what you have been suggesting.

Do we think Odium would scream when a Herald dies? Maybe? But it didnt seem like that. Odium would have likely been thrilled, but the StormFaker was very upset that the timeline had gone wrong.

Ishar was God-Kinging before he had his blade, so this makes me think he had access to some magic before then.

Another clue to the StormFaker being Ishar: The voice feels the need to explain that immortality is not great, and says that "MOST of the heralds are insane now". Ishar believes he is still not crazy, and therefor believes all but him are now insane. This is exacly how Ishar would word a statement like this.