Satsuoni

Well, I have calculated the time first, assuming cutoff at 20 meters. Then, knowing force from definition, and taking g into account, you can get resulting speed difference for coin and body. Coin always starts off from rest relative to body. Then you know your body acceleration upwards, as long as the coins are pushed, and can use that formula (a*t^2/2) to get distance. It is quite rough. Also, what the coin experiences on impact is a very high deceleration, enough to cancel all speed in a fraction of a second.

Well, my point is that, while the same force would indeed give the same acceleration, have anyone considered that we can't, normally, produce the same force on different objects? Let us consider a relatively radical example, for clarity - pushing our hands against the floor or air. When pushing against floor, most people can produce force at least equal to their weights. However, when pushing against air, one must remember that action equals reaction , and reaction of air is defined by air resistance, which, in turn, depends on speed. For the air to produce the same force on your hands as floorboard, you'd need to move your hands faster than a car - imagine trying to punch air fast enough so it would punch back. Obviously, while the force is the same, the effort necessary is not. The lighter the object, the less resistance it offers, the more effort is necessary to produce the same force, or at least to maintain it. Seems quite logical to me, now that I've thought about it some.

[ooc] The man looks at Alfie with curiosity. The cat is very cute, and seems to want him to follow. There is also something familiar about the way he feels. something he can't quite put his finger on. He speaks: "What do you want, kitty?" There is a number of nooks and crannies. There are several private booths, some not occupied. There is a door leading to the kitchen and another one leading upstairs and to the basement, both doors open. There are a lot of metal ornaments on the walls. There are a lot of guns. Almost every customer have one, and the bouncer has a clearly visible large shotgun. The bouncer looks a bit like Koloss. As a reminder, there is a Smoker in the back room, but Alfie couldn't tell whether he was burning or not during brief glimpse he had. In general, however, places that cater to Allomancers tend to have a Coppercloud going at all times... Other people are paying attention to Alfie, feeling a range of emotions from mild adoration to amusement. One addresses bloodmaker: "Do you have fish in your trousers or something?" Many people laugh at the crude joke. Nobody seems to suspect anything amiss. [/ooc]

Same force produced on your body results in the same acceleration. OK, I've done math. Asuuming 10g coin, 60kg body, and 20 meters effective range, pushing on one coin downwards in midair with the force of 1000N will result in the body moving upwards, gaining speed of about 0.13 m/s, while the coin would go down at the speed reaching about 2km/s (which is ridiculous. The math abviously does not take into account air resistance, which at that speed would probably melt the coin). The Push would take 0.02 seconds. The next coin would add another 0.13 m/s, etc. 1000 (10 kg) coins would then carry one about 2 km (2.4) upwards.

Um what? The point is, if you were able to Push on the coin with the same physical force you do on the ground (about double your weight, depending on Allomantic strength), then you'd be accelerated upwards. In this case, the mass of the coin only defines how long you can keep pushing till it is out of range. That is the principle on which rockets work. In (theoretical) ion thrusters, for example, you'd accelerate an ion (mass negligible compared to rocket) till it has impulse enough that releasing it (removing from the system) would provide thrust. Since in practice, coinshots cannot do that, I posit that you can not, in fact, apply the same force at the coin when it is in the air or on the ground. I may have missed something else, though.

Erm. Yeah, I missed a few details as I suspected. Still. The total momentum of the system you-coin-wall is originally zero, and stays zero. The momentum would be conserved just as well if the coin were to simply stop. The rapid deceleration, however, means that force is applied to the coin (by the wall), which is then transferred to you. Still, if we assume that a coinshot can apply force above his weight to the coin while it is in range, that means that the force would no longer be negligible. We know that he can apply such force to the coin on the ground. What, exactly, stops him from pushing on the coin in midair to do a double jump? Sure, the coin would fly away rapidly, but it would still take maybe 0.2 sec for it to get out of range. Then drop another coin, etc, and do like a rocket.

@kchan I'll answer when I get home and calm down some. [EDIT] Naturally, as I calmed down I forgot what I was thinking while, well, not calm. Stupid associative memory. Well, the gist of the matter is: Yes, I am an outlier, not worthy of any pity. I know that, and thank you for reminding me. In general terms, my life was very lucky. The rep system is, in general, fine. Pity about the previous plugin, though, since now rep tab often shows me zerovoted posts. Nevertheless, I would like to know why I am being downvoted, for sometimes it is quite mysterious (were my drawings *that* bad?). Some kind of note would be nice, though probably not feasible.

@Voidus: Yes, that would be nice @KChan: In short, yes. If I were to go over my backlog of posts that I found rude and aggravating and downvote each of them, I expect about 1% probability of retaliation. That is unacceptable risk. I trust people by default, and don't much care about my private info excepting passwords and the like (want to know my visa id, the only ID i have in Japan?), but once the trust is gone, it stays that way. Also note, that you probably have more than 30% of your social interaction outside this site, hence the relevance is less. And I am aware that most people can get over it I tried to mimic that, but to no avail. Nevertheless, I apologize for my lack of control.

Well, let's just say I agree with Yados. And now, onto rant. Before that, several disclaimers: 1. I rarely interact with other people, and I try to avoid generalization. Hence I can and do only speak for myself. I don't know how other people feel, don't understand them, and hence cannot say if they are hurt by something or not. 2. 17th shard (forums and chat) accounts, by my current estimate, to about 70% of my total social interaction. Hence, stuff that happens here is important. I am aware of being pathetic, needing to get a life, etc. Please do not comment on that. 3. Likewise I am aware of the flaws in my thought processes. Please do not point that out again. 4. I also know that as my opinion, this post is worthless. Now, downvotes. In general, they affect me extremely negatively. As a kind of perfectionist, the impact of any judgement on me is naturally biased towards negative. As in, one downvote is equal to 10 to 100 upvotes, more if it brings a new post into the red. (that also means that I rarely post on the thread I agree with, since it is default.) Analysis of downvotes I have received shows them to be, well, random. Some posts are more likely to get them, but in general *any* posts can be. Hence, to avoid shock that comes with downvote, I post less, especially of the personal stuff like simple fanart. Also, my natural inclination is to hide the offending post, for it was judged unworthy, so it is not upvoted again (since it is invisible). The above applies only to the time when I think rationally, however. When my impulse control slips, due to the varying circumstances, I may post whatever consequences be hanged (a good example is this post), which would, of course, result in downvotes (since the tone of the posts is not well calibrated), which would fray my mind further and make control slips more frequent. That is particularly true for the downvotes, the reason for which I do not understand. If I post a sugestion of Feruchemy formula in a thread discussing Feruchemy formulas, and it gets downvoted without any explanation whatsoever by I don't know who, that is aggravating. Downvote, sure, but at least explain why, anonymously or not. Otherwise, I'll just assume that my post is highly offensive for reasons unknown, and hide it / ask Mods to delete it if it is OP.

There is a scene in TFE where Vin learns to Steelpush. She pushes with a constant amount of effort, yet the force of recoil increases drastically as the coin hits the wall. Hence, IMO, effort of pushing is not equivalent to physical force generated. [EDIT] In the light of the above, I'd like to modify my statement about the issue to be such: The maximum force generated by Coinshot is totally dependent on his/her Allomantic strength (including contribution of nicrobursts, etc). The actual force acting on him/object depends on the variety of factors, including Current Effective Masses (CEM) of both, their momenta, etc. In general, it may lead to increased effectiveness of push with increased CEM of Allomancer, but does not change the upper limit.

Ok, to Senor, in your example, if you apply equal force to both sides, you won't move at all, and your wall arm would remain unextended. Then you'll run out of arm on other side and start moving away from the wall. Which brings me to a question which occurred to me recently: are we sure that we can, in fact, Push at a lighter object with the same force? Imagine situation when you are in space, with pole. Your strength remains the same, and you try to push from a light and heavy objects. Can you achieve the same speed after the push? Doesn't the lighter object moving away prevent the buildup of elastic energy and hence, maximum force you can get from your push? I freely admit that I am confused.

[ooc]The building is full of people. It also has some kind of metallic ornaments on the walls, and simple metal sheets in places obscuring your vision to a degree. Metal seems to be a motif of the place. You can see that many people in there have guns. You do not observe a Seeker, but there is a Smoker in the back of the building, in additional to normal smokers, their lungs clearly distinguishable. There are other Allomancers and several feruchemists in the crowd. Many seem drunk or agitated, as far as you can tell. Alfie cannot be sure if there are others beyond metal sheets, but that is likely. There are at least two Bloodmakers, one completely drunk. Satsu is silent.[/ooc]

I agree with Khmauv. I believe that mass (and it is indeed mass, possibly based on spiritual connections between all objects, rather than only the planet. Inertial and gravitational masses, at least. Not sure if the object will have stronger gravitational pull itself (Yes, there are 3 masses, which are supposed to be equal. Wiki.)) works just like normal anchor mass would. It should be noted, that in 2 cases of powerful Push by Wax, he was moving, for example, falling on building. Increasing mass would increase his momentum, Push would transfer that momentum to metal, and you get several tons of weight crushing down on so many nails, ripping them out. In case when he was standing, I believe the above conjecture is correct, and he wanted to avoid being moved and crushed by the push (He'd need anchors evenly spaced, or very fine control over push to stand in place otherwise, and would still have to avoid being damaged by recoil) EDIT: Strictly opinion, of course.

Well, here is an example of pulling, by Kelsier, who is weaker and heavier than Vin (with snips): As in, he overshot the keep wall - which should be at least two human heights, I'd guess, aiming at the roof that was still several -let's say 3 - dozen feet above. So he started from approximately 4 dozen feet away at least, I'd say, probably more (about 14 meters). Next we have this: Let's say 1 meter, for about 60-kg person (trying to use lower bounds), that would give around ~600 joules (muzzle energy of a pistol, according to wiki), and that is far from the maximum level. So, yes, a coinshot pushing a bullet in space could probably achieve energy levels of an antitank rifle, but the problem is acceleration and precision. You Push only from your "push center", wherever that is (chest?) , the bullet continues to fall down, and you need larger distances to achieve the same velocity. Having a longish tube might help, actually. EDIT: Also, a quote from Vin that might be exaggeration: Which makes Luthadel walls about 25-30 meters.

I consider. A bait. A bait that looks natural... A stash? Yes, this would probably serve. I take one of my spare vials with larger metal selection and wrap it in aluminum foil. Expensive, but I don't plan to lose it. I go to the end of the alley, and spot loose bricks on one of the buildings. A pull with my Pewter flared, and the bricks came out, revealing a small gap before the next layer filled with gravel. I carefully place the vial there and close with with brick as far as it would now go. "Well, here is a nice stash full of expensive metals. Do you think it would work?"

I nod. Yes, that would do. I forgot about Harmony's storage, which should have been excessive. "Very well. Let us go." I lead the way out. It is light, and I feel my pupils contract, despite the glasses I wear again. Alfie must be storing Connection, since I tend to forget about him for brief moments. The people are out and about. It is disconcerting after so much time as a single humanoid in the mountains. Some of them are giving me strange looks. I almost wish for the connection spike myself, so I could store as much as I could. I draw on the detachment of the cat within me, and walk as nonchalantly as possible, just a gentleman on a mid-day stroll. The Inquisitor's Spike is in the 6-th octant, a little off the corner of two large streets, not too far from the park where the tin-using cat makes her nest. Easy to find if you know the place, easy to overlook if you do not. I look around for Alfie, spotting him with some difficulty. "There it is. See that alleyway over there? It has a nice spot for burst ambush. I can overfeed my Pewter, touch a Bloodmaker to overwrite his metalminds and spike him before he can react. Getting him here, though - that is up to you."

Funny thing about that is that Vin had no trouble pushing on her earring even before she started burning mists. So immune is probably an exaggeration...

I believe you are correct, but I don't think they knew that during TLR reign. TLR himself might have known, though. EDIT: There is info on this in annotations There are probably a lot of them in the heart (I prefer referring to them as donor bind points), if not all. I am, however, assuming that it is rather hard to hit a single particular point in a small area with something "like a thick railroad spike" while using a sledgehammer...

On the phone now, so I can't search for quotes now, but it was in HoA I believe that Marsh described how inquisitors are made. Essentially, you charge all spikes in the same way - through the heart. Then you can hold on to the spike for a while. So when is the charge type decided? Indeed, there are several bind points that define what power you get - if there were several on the spike, that is. Whether that would destroy other abilities at the moment of binding is unknown. There are several bind points for each ability ( we know of at least two for Allo Steel and Bronze) , possibly with different side effects. There is also Sazed's epigraph stating " the art of hemalurgy is knowledge of where to place a spike" ( paraphrase) As for Investiture limits, there is an interesting tidbit in the recent AMA, now in the database. Essentially, there are limits. That being said, I doubt they are reached. But maybe. I'll search more on pc.

A small note: all spikes for inquisitors were created in the same way - through the heart. Used on Mistborn, steel spike would steal 4 abilities at once, but the inquisitor would only gain one depending on the point in his body the spike went into. It is, afaik, unknown what happens to other abilities or if the spike can be bent to go through several bind points. Atium has been stated to be better at keeping hemalurgy charge, in addition to bring able to steal anything . From recent AMA that would mean " anything encoded in the soul". Also, I have seen it somewhere that charges do not interfere, but can't find it. I am with Wind on this one. While Investitures do interfere (in theoryland now), it can be argued that Hemalurgy and Feruchemy don't fill spike to investiture capacity, even both together, instead having separate limits...

"Indeed, and I can boost the charging/tapping process with Investiture. Not as strong as born Gold compounder, but well enough. Nicrosil is somewhat cheaper, anyway, especially for me. And no, you ned very special metals to harm Feruchemists, and it is a slow process anyway. Tainted metals are primarily for Allomancers." I wince slightly when connection is tapped, suppressing the desire to hug Alfie. I would probably harm him if I do that. Shouldn't do that. Must be me! I shrug off the effects as Alfie releases connection. "Please be careful with that. You have limited amounts, anyway. Try storing more when sneaking around, I guess. Trith to be told, I am not sure. I rarely work with Connection." I gather my things while I am talking. The harvester blades and the corresponding spikes. The goldspikes are already set in two of the blades, one spike human and one cat sized. Just in case. The sheaths wrapped in Aluminum foil, rare and expensive,but better than previous version where I used contact with my blood for concealment. More effective, if nothing else. My metals, and extra metals. For a moment, I am tempted to wear my gauntlet, but prudence - and my wounds still aching from yesterday - dissuade me, and I leave it be. A few more things. I turn back to Alfie. "I am ready, but in this case most important part is yours. Let us go."

Well, I am pretty sure he was running at the speed of the car or so, still well within human reaction capability, as any driver can attest. What would have happened if he stumbled, however, is a good question. It is when you go above that when problems such as air resistance start to manifest. IIRC, the time for processing visual stimuli is about 0.1-0.2 sec for average human, and then the speed of movement can probably take over. I might be wrong, it has been a while... Schwarzschild radius of Earth is 9mm, assuming the same mass. As the volume of Feruchemist tapping pewter increases, I am assuming the mass does too, though not as much as in case of weight tapping. Any object of the constant density will collapse into black hole upon reaching critical size, since mass grows proportionally to the cube of the radius... Anyway, read the wiki, if you want to know more. It is irrelevant, anyway, since you'd hit all other limits (and probably die) long before that.

Well, yes. At the very least, you'll hit basic physical barrier of becoming a black hole at certain size (works for any density). Long before that, you'll crush yourself. Even longer before that you won't be able to move effectively because of your bulk (Sazed commented on that when he was wrestling with Koloss). There may also be a moment when even Feruchemical shielding won't be enough for your bones and heart to hold. Etc... As for the speed: Sazed was tapping Steel and Zinc. Then he ran out of steel, so he could enjoy slow-motion attack: So at certain speed, you won't be able to react to the wall before you.

Ipad/tablet would be nice I'd say. And that, I'd say.

@Kurkustan: A little woozy now, but trying to answer your question: According to the law of equivalence, the situation you describe is identical to moving particles hitting stationary bubble. Your description seems to be about right, except that you don't take into account the change of direction on entry. You'll end up with (assuming particles regain their speed, but not their direction) a bunch of particles going in different directions. Regarding direction change, it is not pure refraction, or most bullets would bounce off the bubble, the speed difference is too great. It might be indeed random scattering as objects gain additional energy or lose it on entry and exit.