Kasimir

That's why this situation doesn't feel right to me...And that's why I want more clarity... :|

Fair enough. Tani seems to be implying some sort of roleclaim. But I just can't make sense of why Baker would be so gung-ho (I think five 'bread's?) on Bort without confidence from a scan. That's a lot more certainty than he's shown in his reads so far. Just on the off-chance we have some sort of AG7 Axl-Swan stand-off here, I do want to get our claims on the table and scrutinised for conflict. Obviously you guys can't and shouldn't confirm/deny who the scanner is, but I think that what Baker says might help your doc reach some conclusions anyway. Yeah, which is why I say I'm slightly tempted but resisting it. I still think that if Baker actually is tacitly claiming that Bort was scanned as targeting Orlok last Night, then we have a serious problem, depending on what the scanner and action claims within your doc are. Not going to go too much into it, except that I have a theory and my theory is that both are incompatible, meaning one of them is lying. This would I think push me towards Orlok-clearing Bort today. So my main options right now would be JNV or Bort from the sound of it. Theoretically Tani as well but again...I just genuinely gut read her Village and don't feel as gung-ho on her as the other two. Edited to add: I'm going to regret asking this, aren't I? >> ...Thoughts on pulling an AG7 / LG12 and just Orlok-clearing the entire pool of three at once? @Matrim's Dice @Devotary of Spontaneity @|TJ| @Sart @JNV @The Baker @Tani @Bort

Hmm. But if that's the case, then Baker categorically cannot be an Elantrian. Which means his extreme Bort push doesn't actually make sense. Nothing else should give that amount of certainty on Bort. Part of me wonders if it's an E!Elantrian (hi LG74 ), but if it's an E!Elantrian, we're looking at a two surviving teammate scenario (one to put in the kills, one to make the clearance scan) , which slightly tempts me to flip Baker anyway, if only to rule this out, but down that path is madness. Unless... @The Baker - Can you comment, in Yes/No bread, whether you put in an action or not last Night? This would help confirm if the Elantrian scan was truthful. I think we need to rule out a scenario in which there's V!Baker and an E!Elantrian lying about a scan in order to have put in the kill, at the very least. It would be a risky lie, but there's no harm in checking. Minimally, @Matrim's Dice - Can you give us a sense of who the other scans were and what the results were? I still V read Tani and I am resistant to voting her based off what I have right now. I might prefer JNV if only because I feel like I'm effort clearing JNV at this point, while my gut is stronger on Tani. I think we need more clarity on this situation, and am not really willing to take Fjorden's scan claims on faith without further cross-checking. Edited to add: @Tani - Think you should talk this through with Baker as well, but knowing sounds like it would help us more. Because if Baker is, as I'm guessing from your reaction, an Elantrian, then the scan from Fjorden doesn't really make any sense. Not with how gung-ho Baker is on Bort, and not with how Baker should in theory be sending in scans each Night. If we have a prima facie clash between what Baker is claiming (which is why I'm also asking Baker about his actions) and what Fjorden is claiming, then we know that something is not right and someone somewhere is lying. This gives us something to go on. If Baker is indeed Elantrian, can you both talk it over, and if claiming, please give us an action history. @Matrim's Dice - Laid out the stakes here, would also appreciate an action history. If both claims can be reconciled, I will likely vote JNV. Until then, I'm keeping my vote where it is because it doesn't feel right, and someone I think could be lying here.

I can honestly say you are not on the top of my list right now. You're Null+, and my gut genuinely thinks you're Village, so I'd be looking at Bort and JNV immediately if not Baker. Would be helpful because again, I'd prefer not to ML a Villager, but I also respect the difficulty here since that was me @ TJ and his Forger claim. Edited to add: @Tani - Gonna be honest, your reaction makes me think that Baker claimed Elantrian. But I don't see how that works, because for Baker to have scanned a NK target (which is basically the only way it'd make sense for him to be gung-ho on Bort), he'd have to have targeted Bort N3. But on N3, he was already strongly E reading Bort - multiple bads. Which seems to imply he scanned Bort earlier. But if he'd scanned Bort earlier, e.g. N2, why is he pushing me D3? Because I've said this in my doc, and I'm probably just going to say it now—I'm a Regular Diplomat, meaning I categorically do not have any actions, so anyone who claims to have scanned me putting in a NK should be flipped immediately after I flip, as per standard doctrine. I've said it and I'll say it again: I am absolutely happy as long as Devo and Mat are alive (TJ to a lesser extent) to include myself in a tie if that's what it takes to get the Village to clear out some of my biggest suspects and if that's what it takes to make sense of things. I just don't find myself able to make sense of Baker's actions and a potential Elantrian claim in a context like this. @Matrim's Dice, @Devotary of Spontaneity, @Bort - Is there anything you can say about potential Night actions that might clear this up? Elantrians track targets, not actions. If this is even Elantrian involvement, which I am honestly not sure about given our current information.

What is raising your hackles about this? What raised your hackles about Illwei? What informs any of your reads? Please help us not ML you if you're Village. I get and respect that you've chosen this playstyle for yourself, but I can't read minds, and this is definitely more helpful than a naked read, but it's still not helping. Is there something you can do with bread to help clear things up a bit more?

Current Reads: Diplomats Par Excellence [=Moderate Village] This is super short which probably doesn't reflect the conspiracy theories and tangents I've gone on in the Arelene doc, but the short of it is I'm satisfied with this tier, and not inclined to revise anytime soon. Diplomats Maybe? [=Light Village] Watching Your Career With Great Interest [=Null+] Negotiable [=Null] Papers, Please [=Null-] P.S. Arelene doc is now so long it's crashing the Docs app on my tablet. @Orlok Tsubodai, @|TJ|, @shadow1 (despite your regrettable choice of alignment), WE. ARE. AWESOME >:)

Kesan Acheris sat on the sand, and watched the waves roll in. Surf soaked the rolled-up cuffs of his trousers, and receded. The small island in the archipelago taken by the delegation from the Arelene Empire seemed only bleaker, now that two were gone from among them. (There were always losses in the night, a price to be paid for light.) He hadn't really known the one who called herself Shadow, and could only speculate at how she'd attached herself to their delegation. Bribes, no doubt, or favours exchanged. There were always those in Arelon who wanted to see the negotiations fail. And then there was Locke. Kesan liked Locke. They'd worked together sporadically on negotiations over the years; a low-stakes negotiation in Elantris, back when Locke was new to the diplomatic service, and Kesan was that low-ranking administrator from a far-flung province. Locke had moved on; Wuhern never had. But now Wuhern wasn't here, and Locke was, and they'd put their heads together trying to work out where those trying to disrupt the negotiations were coming from. "I'm a diplomat," Kesan said, exasperated. "Not law enforcement." "We do what it takes to secure the negotiations," Locke said, dispassionately. "If these agents are trying to disrupt the negotiations, then is is crucial that we neutralise them." Locke, dead now. It was just him and Bark left, and Kesan felt, all of a sudden, so very alone and inadequate. You were never ready, he thought. Even when you thought you were. And Kesan Acheris had not been ready for a very long time. There was that complicated portfolio during a posting in the Arelene embassy in the Imperial Seat—late nights working with Wuhern and Locke in the Frozen Moon teahouse, heads bent over the lists of concessions and demands that the Rose Empire's delegation had presented to them—but he'd never liked having to spearhead a delegation. There were reasons for it. And everyone looked at you when it soured, when it went to hell, as it inevitably did, and shook their heads, because of course a backwater boy from one of the furthest provinces in the Arelene Empire couldn't be expected to get it right. He kept his head down, stayed far away from the light, and worked hard. And kept working at the tasks they gave him. And for all of that, it'd brought him here, to what must've been the highest-stakes negotiations in his entire life, and now Locke was dead, and so was Jotaon Josteor, and all Kesan could feel was the sheer weight that had fallen on his narrow, inadequate shoulders. His mother had come from the Rose Empire, from Ukurgi, and as he watched the waves sweep in, traceries of foam glinting across the sand in the last light of the sun, he thought of the tales she'd told him. Proverbs, sometimes, the kernel of wisdom at the centre of a story. Later, he'd taken to reading Rose Empire classics, perhaps out of a sense of exile and loss. A sense that there was something missing, something from half his blood, something he yearned to connect with. There was a tale in the Rose Empire, about a wave. He watched the next wave sweep in, felt the water tug gently at his ankles, before receding yet again. It reaches the shore, and then it disappears; and then there is only water. But the water is still there; the wave has disappeared, because it was only ever water, only ever temporary, only ever transient. The wave returns to the ocean, where it came from, and where it is supposed to be. We, thought Kesan, with the hollowness of loss, are only waves. Only ever waves. He picked himself up, and brushed sand off his knees. The loss did not change. Neither did the sense of inadequacy. But it did not matter. He was alive, and Locke was dead, and watching the waves in the last light of the sun, feeling the cool breeze against his skin, Kesan Acheris vowed to continue Locke's negotiations. Jotaon Josteor had been their suspect. He had turned out to be working for the good of the Teo Empire, for the shared good of the negotiations. He imagined Wuhern standing there, on the shoreline, his back to Kesan. "As long as we are alive," Wuhern said, quietly, "As long as we cannot die, we must assume responsibility." Kesan took a long, deep breath. He exhaled, listening, still, to the waves. It was time to get back to work.

The Eco is very good - reliable piston filler. You might definitely prefer EF, though they run to Western rather than Japanese sizing (this one you knew already I expect, given you have a TWSBI Go...)

Good enough for me for here and now. Bort, Baker. Still want to know where that Illwei sus emerged from, and the timing of the D1 Thaid vote is a bit disconcerting for me. Apparently, to convince me that technically whether there is a leak in Teo or not, Sibling's death would have been sus. So I can't strengthen my read of JNV on this basis, good to know. Okay, no, wait a second I just realised. I cannot for the life of me confirm/remember if I saw TJ in the doc near EoC as he wasn't being communicative, and doesn't always show up as a differently-coloured icon. This is on me, but it was one hell of a EoD, I was trying to make a snap decision about whether or not to withdraw my protest vote, and I was extremely worried for the welfare of another player in this game, so in short, I don't know if I can trust my memory of whether TJ was there. But it was just Shadow and I talking about the existing trains, so if he was in the doc, and V!TJ, Shadow would not have had a way of soliciting another train from him. Given: This does sound like a weak contradiction. But that being said, I should also point out that the Arelene doc was probably just a bit less than 147 pages long at that time. Even with my having formatted the doc extensively for easy searching, I don't believe TJ could reasonably have come to a decision and finished reading everything/ignored the large chunks from me and Orlok and himself to find Shadow's interjections under that kind of time pressure. It was always going to be a losing battle.

I've said this in thread several times, but in short, TJ made a pair of very natural slips in our doc. One involving confusion about what the Elims even were (see: Disruptor), and the other concerning his GM PM where he mistook 'Diplomat' as a role rather than a faction. He did involve some GM PM wording, which I'm ignoring, because that takes us into bad territory. I've paraphrased and transcribed the conversation here. TJ also roleclaimed within our doc and I am sufficiently satisified that his claim implies he is most likely Village; I am leaving it to him whether he wishes this disclosed to the thread or not. First, I think that the slip was too natural, and there was little reason for Evil!TJ to just say that while performing his reads, off-the-cuff. Second, I would expect Elims to pretend to be confused or just display a non-reaction to Exp's D1 RP claim to be Evil. Archer should have forewarned them in their doc. We see this from Illwei insisting that it should be ignored, and Shadow querying Exp about what's going on with it. TJ just being confused and completely missing that Exp had claimed Evil and asking me where that had happened is distinct enough from their responses that I credit less weight to it being a deliberate response. Finally, I'm moderately familiar with his player meta and have worked closely enough with him. I do have some lingering concerns given LG83 and how disengaged he's been from analysis (which I see more on E!TJ than V!TJ), so he's a Light Village read for me, but at this point, he's still not in my immediate PoE. He also pushed back against the Aman case Orlok and I were pushing, while Shadow's in-doc position was carefully muted and eager/obliging. I think that's enough of a contrast for me to feel good about him as well. If Devo is Village on your read, which I would agree with, Shadow and me both voting Archer would entail a bus that never needed to happen, because Archer could easily have been saved if it wasn't for the two of us voting on him. One of us bussing him still works; two of us is fairly kayana given how close the votes were and the fact we'd know Archer intended to self-pres. I should also note Orlok and I had very strong Village reads on each other, which TJ can confirm, and if TJ says otherwise, I'm happy to take the exe to prove my honesty, after which you can Dakhor shoot TJ because he has no incentive other than alignment to lie about it. (Anyway he's Light Village for me.) To be clear, Orlok expressed in our doc that he was more willing to believe he had misread his GM PM than that I was Evil. Given how closely we've worked over this year, I think it's reasonable to believe we'd both be able to read each other over around 147 pages of conversation, discussion, argument, and live communication in our extremely hyperactive Empire doc. Bro. Do you even pay attention to the vote timings? Mat was the decisive vote - Baker dropped the first vote and left. It's unclear where the suspicion on Illwei materialised from: Aman cited Illwei's player meta, and TJ leaned Elim on Illwei based on her meta as well in our doc. So...where is Baker's suspicion of Illwei arising from? It's why I want sight into that damned Empire doc already because we can't exclude a distancing vote that didn't get removed, i.e. TMI. @|TJ| - Question though; you leaned more E on Illwei, so why stick with Mat? Again, I know you're pinch-hitting but context matters. At the point Shadow voted, there were just three viable trains: And we were under ten minutes to the end of the cycle. There is no more train creation given TJ was not in the Empire doc, and in the Empire doc, I specifically said I was protest voting myself at how the Turn had been handled, and/or would simply further decline to engage in the cycle, also in protest at how the Turn had been handled as I strongly disagreed with the events that had taken place. The Aman train was out of contention because Aman was set to be modkilled anyway. Shadow had mentioned repeatedly in thread and in the doc she Village read me and would likely have been taken to task by Orlok or TJ (on the assumption V!TJ) if she'd voted me out of the blue. If she wanted to self-pres and survive, it doesn't matter what alignment Bort and Tani are, she has to vote Striker.

I mean, according to JNV, Sibling's a Dakhor. Isn't requesting that Stick shoot me first before subbing in just a bit cold-blooded and non-impartial here?

Picked up a TWSBI Swipe just to test it out, and was surprised how much I enjoyed it The spring-loaded converter system is fun to play around with, and I'm enjoying the Broad nib. Picked one up in Salmon as a fun reference to a Sanderson Elimination game I played at the beginning of this year Picture not mine as my phone camera isn't working right now but:

Striker on Baker: But this was on N1, p4, where the situation could have changed by the time the Rose Empire began voting on each other D2. Not sure. JNV, when did Sibling claim Monk, exactly? Feels a bit odd for an Elim team to leave a V!Dakhor alive, especially since no one would be left to contradict JNV. But then, I could always see Orlok as a priority target because he's a kayana bro, so there's that.

@Tani - I'm curious about one thing. Can you look in your Empire doc around C2, and tell me how exactly Illwei came to Baker's attention via his vote? Was she behaving suspicious in the doc? Because as far as I know, TJ in our doc expressed mild suspicion of Illwei but it was based off her meta. Aman, too, appeared to have meta-based suspicion of Illwei. Am curious where Baker's suspicions come from; need to recheck what Bort said. @The Baker If you're somehow able to communicate this info via bread pictures, would appreciate that too.

I think there's an argument to be made for why I need to be modkilled as well, but if it hasn't occurred to anyone, I'm tempted not to keep digging as this might just cause Ash or El more headaches... >> I know the feeling. A lot of my Orlok and TJ reads came from personal meta knowledge, and my ability to read them as my bros and it felt rude to exclude Shadow as my weakest read on the basis...she wasn't my bro >> (I mean honestly we say player meta but it boils down to: they're my bros, I know them, they can't hide that from me. Maybe TJ can but due to more in-doc happenings and last Day's events, am somewhat more confident in V!TJ now.) I'm not dead sold on Bort, I just want to open with Bort. But is there a way you can talk about some of the in doc interactions that give you a better read on Bort? @Devotary of Spontaneity Interested if you can chime in here. I'm not sure either, but I'm very tempted to just LAFO if I am not sold on Tani or JNV, and you and Devo are not in my PoE. I would I suppose be down for policy-lynching Baker, if only because I don't want us to worry about reading Baker at lylo, but again, that's just PoE issues, and I don't know we should be worrying too powerfully about lylo now with one to two Elims left. I suppose my current intuition would be within <Baker, Bort> but this is before I commit to re-reading or analysing because I was supposed to have a quiet, chill, game with my bros... But then they killed Orlok. So yeah, lesgo.

I didn't want to say this, but to be blatant: Stick and I were in contact before the game. She knows my alignment. This means that as long as Sibling is replaced by Stick, and this is allowed to stand, this will tell me something about Sibling's alignment. This is why we are currently waiting and expecting a modkill. This was a mistake and a miscommunication on both our ends. Edited to add: To be honest, this likely means I might need to be modkilled as well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Edited to add 2: If you read the MR57 Elim doc, I had to explain 'thunderdome', 'PoE', and a few other terms to Bort. It's not something he'd have needed to fake in an Elim doc. Given the preponderance of 'thunderdome' in LG75, it's curious to me that he'd have backread and caught that game of all games. His early opening game pattern of behaviour also looks to me like in his previous E games. I need to commit to relook, but think Bort is a good starting point.

Ni su'cuyi, gar kyr'adyc, ni partayli, gar darasuum, Orlok. C'mon bro be the change you want to see, why are you not offering analysis? My very crude current sets: Non-starters: <Mat, Devo, TJ> Starters: <Bort, Baker, JNV, Tani> Note that when I say this is crude, it's really just "fairly confident Village read" versus "everyone else" so it needs more work. I also need to sift the starter set more. Still fairly comfortable with my TJ read; while I could be mistaken, that's a future problem. Shadow pushed hard against the idea there was one Elim in each Empire, so I'm wondering if this is a good time to start looking at Fjorden again. As the only player left in Fjorden I'm not sure about: Bort. When I have more time/bandwidth, closer vote analysis to see if I can get more coherent views on Baker, JNV, and Tani out. I'm deliberately ruling out Stick/Sibling as I understand there's a game issue involving her and Stick may need to be modkilled, so we will likely get the flip anyway.

I'm still done and do not really foresee myself doing much solving going forwards. Kasimir. When I was given my Empire doc, I was also given exactly one job: support my bros in the doc and chill with them. This is the only thing keeping me from keeping my protest vote on myself and chilling in the dead doc.

Can confirm this. @Ashbringer What's the votecount?

Can I interest you in a Kasimir vote?

Part of the reason Orlok made the push and voted Aman rather than Striker is that not all of Arelon, myself included, is thoroughly convinced Striker is Evil. Which is why my response to you doesn't involve E!Striker thoughts at all. Aman Kasimir. This is a protest vote. I am no longer engaging with this cycle because once we have gotten to this point, there is no ethical way I can accept a lynch on Striker or Aman, whether they flip Evil or Village.

@Elbereth. I'm going to say that one way or another, if we have reached this point in the gamestate, V!Aman or E!Aman, I don't see a way this cycle is continuing and we need the IM in here.

Aman's reads appear to be convenience reads and shifting. Again, Mat was the decisive, killing vote on Illwei. This should not put Mat in any position to be lynched in any reasonable game. We have taken down two Elims. Where is the desperation suggestion of killing Mat coming from? If you are suggesting D3 (or toying with the idea of doing so) killing a Villager or a player you, on N2, called more or less Village, then you have a problem. Where is the reason to rethink Mat coming from? Raw paranoia? Paranoia doesn't work that way. As requested, here are some of Archer's Evil games: MR52, MR56, LG81 (check this one especially), and MR55, in which Archer survived despite being an outed Elim, and went on to win the game. MR55 and LG81 would be my top recommendations. Relooking the LG83 cycle in which Archer baited the lynch and died would also be relevant. On C1? With facts that are easily disprovable by doc mates? I'll fully admit I didn't realise how bad it was until it was actually argued over in the Arelon doc. But you are now simply making assertions rather than engaging with the argument Orlok has laid out. Bad arguments come in types. My point is that there's weak arguments (e.g. the inference isn't sufficiently strong), and there's arguments that involve blatantly lying or misrepresentation. I don't think you need to buy that Aman is perfect; I think you just need to buy that making a case against a persuasive, confident player like Aman on D1 is suicide. For that matter, if you don't buy it, the next time we're V/E, I welcome you to make a D1 argument against V me. I'm a mid-tier player but I'm decently confident I can C1 you.

Do you, as an Elim, make it against Aman, knowing: A. There would be retaliation, B. There's bad cases, and there's JNV and Experience actively backing Aman against Archer by claiming Archer has misrepresented what happened in the Teo doc? There's bad cases. I fully agree. So why do you make a case that can be factually disproven, by at least two other members of your doc? There's bad, there's D1 arguments, and there's "I'm going to outright be misleading and misrepresent what Aman said in my doc because this will absolutely not backfire at all in any way." Do you think there is a material difference between pushing Aman specifically with bad arguments as an Elim, and any villager, any time, with bad arguments? Note that Aman and Orlok decisively slaughtered E!Archer C3 of MR56. @StrikerEZ - You're shading the difference between types of faulty arguments here.

Sorry bro, I mentioned that because the "why would he bus two teammates" bit is addressed in Orlok's post, I believe. Either that or it was in one draft of it. Arelon didn't get to 129 pages for no reason....We were arguing this among ourselves a lot, which again, explains our lack of thread presence earlier. Sorry we're late guys. Would he have calculated on remaining Village read, given my MR potentially re-igniting suspicions of him, given how he was committed to playing in it? Remember that he would have been juggling this with an Evil game in the form of MR57. And Aman is used to facing paranoia, particularly after a successful Evil game. And if you agree Archer isn't a moron, then what explanation do you have for Archer committing suicide-by-Aman? Because that's the one place you're at. You say there's no reason to do it for Aman, but you ignore that Archer has absolutely no reason to do it either. Why doesn't that factor into your calculus? Why is it acceptable for Archer to make a move that makes zero sense for an Elim, on your worldview, but unacceptable for Aman to do the same? @|TJ| Let's find out! I can respect non-intervention, and on my part, am perfectly willing to take responsibility if I'm mistaken. But by this point, I really don't think so.