Kasimir
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Everything posted by Kasimir
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Actually no I have a question. We argued a lot in LG90 about the right way to read Archivist - I felt Archivist's vote was TWTBAW and his team should've talked him out of it, you felt it was just straightforwardly Evil. We seem to have swapped positions here - partly as I'm more null on Nerdy than E reading him right now. Does this affect your read of the situation? I guess it's true Nerdy's vote was more naked and less gerrymandered than Archivist's.
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FYI I'm referring to the one from the penultimate cycle where he just shows up and votes you. You were Elim confirmed from the final cycle, no? I mean...he voted when he didn't need to, didn't he? Tbh I am re-reading and maybe talking myself into V!you, V!Mat, V!Devo, V!Fifth, V!Hael (very weakly), V!Bookwyrm (maaaaybe), but I also have a massive Mat question mark right now and potential ??? about Aman so something is wrong because if I am correct, where the hell do I go from here? (Working forthcoming.) Is this the one where we try to guess E!Aman again? >>
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His view is that a good Elim must be a tester/tempter: your job is to test the Village and to give the Village as hard a time as possible. But he's fundamentally a Village player at heart and likes it when the Village does see through him.
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What did we say about not open-wolfing in the bloody thread?!??!?!! Thanks, TIL. Question for you as I'm backreading right now: why the Mat unvote? @Ookla the Unknown Edited to add: @_Stick_ - Not sure if you missed this or I forgot to ask, but why did you read Nerdy as null+? I'm at their post right now and they're a solid null for me.
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Sorry the Doctor Who joke was too good to miss Definitely scuffed your reaction test though, for which I'm sorry! That would actually be my concern as well but less so on the whether Xino is changing front, more so on the Szeth front. Like - I guess I come from the perspective that it's probably not a deliberate play on Xino's part, just a fundamental discomfort or lack of interest in being Evil. He mentions a lot of times he has RL, which I absolutely think factors in. Which makes it more plausible to me E!him just gives up when there's friction. V!him keeps on showing up. So incentives/attractiveness issue. And I can relate because that is a problem I have when Evil which takes us back to that LG90 longpost and so on. What I'd say I guess is two things: 1. I don't know how much you can change your fundamental psychological incentives, barring an entire different approach. That is, if your inactivity is driven by the fact being Evil isn't appealing to you (and just guessing here) E!you lacks comfort with the thread and just sort of loses motivation to check in, can you really change that just by willing yourself to? It feels like a whole psychology/incentives issue. And yeah I can confirm I've thought a lot about that because of myself and my E problem. 2. I feel like as a GM I would be concerned for my game balance. But there's also the element where you don't want players to be able to meta-game your rands so I'm happy leaving that aside. 3. I guess we come back to how pure you think the trains are, too. Hoo boy. FWIW if Aman is Evil he is cheering inside for you now Edited to add: @_Stick_ Sorry, forgot: #4: - This happens, too. I think rushing to vote is odd when you haven't even read the cycle and are endangered, but the trend shouldn't blind us to the fact that this does happen with V!Xino as well because RL. I just think we see more positive engagement from him when he's V even with RL but there's a lot of give in that read. So in short I don't disagree with you and given more data, could be incentivised to stop regarding him as a train I'd be happy to back today.
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Stick... ............... .............Are you...................... ............................the Doctor....? :eyes: It's the theory I was running off anyway, that Xino was worried about the margins. If the self-pres element did matter, then it's not a good comparison, which is a problem for your theory. But fair point. Isn't that much standard TUN though? It's weird because reading those posts sort of nudged me towards your view of V!TUN - he's at least saying more about it rather than slipping under the radar or trying to skate by than he usually does, even though I also still find it weird that he wanted the discussion but wasn't interested in it. Fair, I'll agree with that one So I'm currently looking at either V!Devo/E!Fifth or V!Devo/V!Fifth, oy vey. Intend to. Am going back and re-reading and asking about anything that's not obvious to me. Mast was the one I was interested in. Currently lean V!Mat, but slightly stronger V!you feelings for now. I have a question about this, but I think it is best for me to wait for Hael's response first. I - have a very, very weak V lean on Hael but that relies on a single point that is extremely defeasible (and doesn't connect to the JNV-Winzik issue.) Edited to add: @_Stick_ - Perhaps this is too meta and I'll willingly back off on it, but quite honestly, if you are Szeth and you just came off a game in which E!Xino went inactive and the dead doc is going on about how this is a E!Xino tell, do you immediately run an E!Xino team again?
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On my own end, this is what the generator gives me: Sequence: 5 - 8 - 1 - 5 Under KOTOR 2 rules, I believe you win due to tablemaxxing?
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Ah no, I actually meant it's a IKYK. I sort of want to say it was D2 of LG90 - Shadow straightforwardly admitted she would have NKed me N1. She got sussed for it, and there was some IKYK there, but she really was Village and was just saying it like it was. I haven't played with E you in a long time and the last time I did, I IDed you through voting patterns so that's what I'm sticking to. Part of me does want to give you V credit for just saying it though >>
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I'm sensing a shadow repeat here :|
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Fair enough. Bookwyrm. I am willing to vote Xino as well. With Bookwyrm, it's more a shower thought: v. I think the question we want to answer is: Who was reading Danex as E at that point? Stick and me. Aman also voted Danex, and JNV explicitly read Danex as E. This means the vc that Bookwyrm was responding to was: Part of me thinks this is a really kayana place for any E player to want to go. We're talking about at least four votes and deciding to be the fifth voter. As before, I'm not sure how a teammate doesn't go "Bruh maybe this is a really bad idea" when Bookwyrm wants to do it. But part of me does recall that the context of the E!Bookwyrm post I've pulled (for people who aren't aware, Bookwyrm's first game was LG90, he's been Village since with one Evil stint in QF63. This is the game I'm quoting from) had Bookwyrm choose to make what was a fairly suspicious fourth vote on Archer. That's effectively how we ended up catching him, that and PoE. His Elim team that game was him and Turtle, so there wasn't all that much doc conversation going on in terms of how not to appear sus. The thing that's sticking out to me though is the fact that Bookwyrm is explicitly (at least partially) phrasing his vote as being dependent on the opinions of other 'more experienced players', who are likely myself, Stick, JNV, maybe Aman (did not explicitly express a JNV sus.) Why should we be trusted for our vote though? I'm somewhat appeased by Bookwyrm citing difference in Dannex's behaviour but also not - Someone correct me if I'm wrong but Bookwyrm and Dannex only share two games: LG90 and BT3. Dannex never even seriously came under suspicion in BT3 and BT3 was so whack (cf. TUN's immortal statement about being a Villager because he had killed too many Villagers!) that it just shouldn't count. In LG90, Danex was Evil. This is one of the cases where doing more just feels ??? because your main baseline was Evil Danex. I'll have a more organised thread re-read subsequently. I just wanted to throw this thought out first. Edited to add: Do you remember MR57 where half the Village and their cow was @ing you and your notifs exploded? Mat was going to be pinged by my quoting him anyway, I just wanted to draw his attention to that section without duplicating notifications unnecessarily. I don't disagree with this, and it's making a Xino train somewhat more appealing to me, but my question is if you really believe it wasn't self-pres in LG91, which would be the main defeater for a comparison here. Alv hadn't yet voted, for all he knew, Elk would sweep on in, and there should have been at least two vote manip Blades in Village hands at that juncture. Wouldn't that just be reasonable precautions? Why? I don't get a strong feeling from this as our team tried distancing in MR59 and I believe that's what she's referencing. On re-reading I actually get a sense of V!Devo off this, but not a strong one. @Ookla the Omniscient? Why?
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Can you do me a favour and please highlight or change the font colour instead of bolding your additions >> For a while I thought Silver had spoken of Dannex's flip as though it was already done and my suspicion levels blasted through the roof... Reading the rest now. Edited to add: On Hael, it's why I expressed concern. I didn't notice it at all although tbh I have not even remotely been interested in looking for IC tells since such a player would be dead anyway, only trying to ID an Elim.
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I could see E!Mat boarding the V/V wagon if he had to or to remain consistent with his reads. But he'd already felt Danex was Village and not wanted to vote on my train for policy reasons so that was a nonstarter I guess, for either alignment. I'll be honest, the main reason I V!read that refusal is it's reminding me of my refusal to seal the Bookwyrm train in early LG91: like yes it was better to do so against the tie guys but I was convinced enough on a gut level of V!Bookwyrm that I couldn't make myself do it. And then the policy side explains not going on my train instead. So I guess this means the question becomes feeling out Mat's V!read of Dannex. The most I remember of Mat's V!read on Danex comes from the fact he just agreed with/vibed with Danex's early points: But I guess there's a whole question: gut, Mat, or? (This is not a will vote bold, just a 'please see this' bold. I'm surprised and mildly concerned you tracked that. I'm fine with opening on Xino. Stick had and withdrew a vote on Danex - will relook her in a bit, there's also Fifth's side-train vote, and Mat's side-vote on Stick. Mat, never really got a response from you - I agree with Bookwyrm pressure but feel it's hard to get productive reads out of Bookwyrm and that there's often a LHF aspect to pushing Bookwyrm. Given we've seen Bookwyrm LHFed in two games so far, I'm confused about why you find unwillingness to keep pushing Bookwyrm surprising?
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Am curious why - I am lightly V reading his hesitance to get involved. It just felt very Mat, for want of a better word. Edited to add: So depending on your point of view, they either ignored Mat for obvious reasons, or reasons of obviousness.
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Yep my desire to die has just drastically increased. At least thank God he was not Winzik or IC or I'd feel much worse. I wonder. They hid very well in my AN, by completely changing their style. No one guessed it was them. But we're helped with one Danex voter being flipped, though I now believe the side-trains or dgaf trains are where to look. Edited to add: What aspect of it?
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It's me doing a hard lumping of reads I have into two crude tiers - will I vote for you or won't I. I do think it's parasitic on Fifth's paranoia. Does that suffice for you?
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Sigh. Ffs. If Danex is Village or even IC/Winz this is just going to make me want to die more. Danex I guess, not sure how I feel about Danex's dgaf. Edited to add: @Ookla the Tall You can feel proud of yourself, I guess. I've decided to play to the team over the amounts of crems I cannot actually find myself giving for them anymore.
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Yeah I realised and edited it in. Nerdy is a no - a lot of pragmatic "don't wanna D1 them" people in No but some actual reads so I'm fine. Though gauging from the fact Insanity and Almond haven't yet joined us, this may be a rash call. But we can let the filter sort that out I suppose.
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Alv approves of this message. What do you think are the odds wincon!v!Danex wants to keep me in there.
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Current state of my willingness: No: [Fifth, Aman, Mat, Stick, Silver, Almond, Insanity, Hael] Sure: [Danex, Devo, TUN, Xino, Wiz, JNV, Bookwyrm] I've missed someone and IDK who and it's driving me crazy. I say this but still want to die, tbh. Edit: FFS missed Nerdy, he can go into No.
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Sorry - meant Nerdy has noted his vote on me. This was a typo. See above. Nerdy specifically said he was voting me, right after Fifth's post, because people keep mentioning sus of me and not voting me so he went on. What do you think is the case, then? That's fundamentally a sheep of Fifth. Do you really want me to start naming names? Because if I go in that territory, we go into grudge territory and I'd really rather not go there, nor even begin to hold grudges in the first place, beyond getting utterly fed-up. I do note that you were at least fairly mild about paranoiding on me in the dead doc, for which I am grateful. Again, my sticking point is: if you treat the same line of reasoning as exculpatory of any other player, kindly extend me the same courtesy. (This is a general statement.)
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I'll say this: the early state of the Danex train made me feel uneasy, and I still think (!) that I could see a V!Danex world especially based off his E!playhistory, but at the same time, I'm just utterly at a loss as to why V!Danex is looking at this and not getting in here. He's been lurking in the thread at least on two occasions I can see now.
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Yeah I know but I believe in making your thoughts/opinions known no matter what even if the Village will ignore it after you die, or worse, follow it and ML Heron.
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Like, how did we ID E!Bookwyrm in your QF @Ookla the Tall - fundamentally opportunistic voting patterns and sort of "eh why not." Then in LG91 it was clear he was more engaged with the game, making that really weird vote and retraction on you, got sussed to high hell and back for it. Sure we can sus him for it here, it's an opportunistic vote. But where do we go after that? The main thing I found for V!Bookwyrm was specificity, willingness to litigate. It's not really here but that's the one post problem. I'd never object to applying pressure because why not right. But like it or not, what am I supposed to think about a dataset with exactly one point in it? Edited to add: @Ookla the Tall - I'm curious if Bookwyrm's history as a LHF train influences you here. There's context in LG91 that we don't have here, including the fact that the train dynamics are functionally different, but calling out that Bookwyrm has been ignored is odd to me.
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Nerdy is voting me because he's sheeping Fifth, and Fifth has noted his vote on me is based on raw paranoia. I note he does not actually have raw paranoia of any other player. In other words, he is literally holding on to E!me in the face of everything I am doing, which is no different from what you are doing, or what he himself is doing, because he's worried I might be Evil. Might. Paranoia. You yourself V!read Fifth. I fail to see where that goes beyond an attitude clear and would point out that the fact you believe that is good for Fifth and bad for me seems to only be explainable by double standards. If you believe my attempts to make sense of Dannex and to voice my various thoughts of players is Evil, you can explain why. I'll accept it if you think my vote on Danex is sus. I'll accept it if you think my talk of Merlin is sus. Hell, I'll accept if you think my aggressive opening is sus. What I think is outright disingenuous is if you have no disqualifiers and still want to apply double standards to different players. I'm perfectly happy with you voting to lynch me, for the record. I do not actually care, and my point stands. Again - I'll be honest, I don't care. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I can keep on paranoiding on you if you like, for the next few months, and see how you like it. You could have talked me into caring in LG91, but right now I'm at the place where I'd much rather keep flipping Village and keep getting MLed so people learn You can say what you want and echo Hael. My rant in the dead doc stands. It's the double fricking standards that is pissing me off so very much. If you believe I should never play SE again, honestly at this juncture, I'm happy to agree with you, because I don't care. If you can't give me the exact same grace or suspicion you can another player, then I don't see why I should care to continue with this community. No, but you're not interested in engaging on Stick, and that's fair to me. But the fact you are not interested in engaging on Stick does imply there is a very low level of thought being put into this cycle, and that's exactly what is on my mind when I point out that I don't see what is wrong with CCing C1 - this is exactly the same threshold across the cycle, more or less. Edited to add: Because Bookwyrm. I feel you can't ID Bookwyrm beyond a meta comparison because he's so...Bookwyrm. We literally wasted two cycles arguing over him in LG91. Sure, if I was in the mood, I could do a Bookwyrm comparison, but it's hard to have much to go off over a single post. He makes sus votes. He makes opportunistic votes. That's literally him. I guess I could see maybe E!Bookwyrm but that would be from lack of further posts rather than a positive read IMO.
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Could I convince you to vote for me? Sort of, but also not. I acknowledge if you are V this isn't ideal, and that's where I'm hesitating to do this. But I am also firmly of the belief that SE players only learn when they ML, not when they get it right.
