Pathfinder

To clarify, what I meant was if I posted the WoB showing conclusively that what Allik said was in fact accurate and true. That it was in fact specifically Kelsier that enacted those policies. That it verified what I attributed to Kelsier, would that change your view of Kelsier? Given your response to my misunderstood question, I see that it would not. So I see no point in discussing the validity of Allik's statements when regardless whether it is proven conclusively factual or not, it would not change your view of Kelsier. To me such knowledge would cause me to see Kelsier in a negative light. For you, it appears it would not. So the subject is mute. Basically I am agreeing to disagree agree ahead of the discussion that I know will ultimately resolve to agreeing to disagree lol.

I'll add even further, what was covered up was not the burning of the rift, it was Evi's involvement. Dalinar didn't want Evi to be branded a traitor, so it was changed to a kidnapping. (just in case to avoid confusion, I am agreeing with you Karger, but just adding additional information)

So if I presented a WoB that proved Kelsier was the cause of Allik's society and how it functioned as we were introduced to it in Bands of Mourning (and thereby verifying what Allik said), would it change your views on Kelsier?

That is why I asked what would it take for you to consider Allik a trusted source?

No problem. Sorry my intention was just to confirm some of your thoughts, and give you more information to build on your theory. So Urithiru could very well somehow be an oathgate to another planet considering Brandon has confirmed it was an oathgate like means that got them there.

That might be where the confusion comes in. i was speaking regarding all of copper's uses, and all of aluminum's uses. So individually yes burning copper blocks soothing and rioting for the individual burning copper. And yes a person wearing a aluminum hat would also negate the soothing and rioting for the individual wearing the hat. However copper also blocks detection of powers being used. In order to accomplish that same goal with aluminum, Wax would need to be in an aluminum box. This would prevent him from pushing on metal that is outside the box. Copper on the other hand would hide Wax's use of steel, while still allowing Wax to manipulate metal within his range.

We know Urithiru is not a spaceship, and we know a spaceship was not used to travel from Ashyn to Roshar during Ashyn's destruction. Brandon has confirmed the means used was a lot like the Oathgates but he is still trying to work out the canon on how exactly that works. He would like it to involve the spiritual realm, but it may run into some continuity or physics based issues.

Kelsier used emotional allomancy to instigate one of the people who signed up with the rebellion to fight. He then used steel to try and push Demoux to kill the man. So yes Kelsier does push people, but not always with the aim of bringing the best out in them.

Agree to disagree. Thank you.

So are to disregard everything an individual in the very culture we are discussing says and thinks? May I ask what it would take for Allik to be considered a trustworthy source to you? Regarding King Arthur leaving and returning. I believe I posted earlier in this thread, but Kelsier isn't even holding up to the Survivorists beliefs anymore as per Brandon himself. So unless King Arthur said he would return, but then changed his mind and decided he had better things to do, I do not think that legend applies here.

Copper does not prevent the use of abilities. You could hide abilities being used by surrounding yourself with aluminum, but you aren't going to be able to affect anything outside that box. Copper hides the detection of the ability, but you can still use the abilities as you wish. So copper is still very useful.

Actually I feel what would be more applicable in your example is Dalinar as one of the german soldiers during World War 2. Not as Hitler. Germany was primed for World War 2 due to their treatment at the end of World War 1. Germany was the scape goat of the first world war, and all the other world powers ended up grinding it into the ground. That resulted in a lot of animosity, resentment, and hardships for the German people. That is a state that Hitler took advantage of, and used to further his agenda and rise to power. That resulted in the culture and society that German children selling out their parents as collaborators to be executed be seen as normal and the right thing to do. The Nuremberg Trials do show at the end of the day we are responsible for our own actions, but it doesn't change the effect the effect society and the culture has on the individuals growing up in it. Dalinar grew up in a society and culture that extoled Sadees (the sunmaker). Sadees (the sunmaker) I think would be the more applicable analogue to Hitler.

The unknowable quote applies to the god beyond. As @Calderis pointed out, Brandon has confirmed he will not confirm nor deny the existence of the god beyond, nor will he say whether or not it is the "ultimate" god of the Cosmere. Jasnah sees no point in "spending my life trying to earn the favor of an unseen, unknown, and unknowable being who watches me from the sky is an exercise in sheer futility.” So any religions that have such tenets are off the table as she has already responded to such arguments and she personally finds them lacking. Regarding your earlier assertion that she only states concerning the almighty. The below quote shows she has studied every religion on Roshar, and none of them do it for her. So any religion in existence with similar tenets are also off the table as she has already responded to such arguments and she personally finds them lacking. “You’re so sure he isn’t real,” Shallan said. “The Almighty.” “I have no more proof of him than I do of the Thaylen Passions, Nu Ralik of the Purelake, or any other religion.” Finally we do know quite a bit about shards. We know they all function the same within a set of perimeters and rules. We know they are portions of a whole that also functions the same within a set of perimeters and rules. We know Jasnah's view on the Almighty, which is a shard of Adonalsium. We know all the shards have vessels, or are mindless masses of investiture, or are massive amounts of investiture that gained sapience. We know that Adonalsium had a vessel and that vessel has died. We know Jasnah has spoken to the Stormfather through Dalinar. We know Jasnah holds no mysticism over the Heralds. We know that Rosharans would consider the shards "spren". We know that Jasnah does not view spren "worthy of worship". So in summation, if Jasnah does not view a shard as worthy of worship, then the rationale that brought her to that conclusion can be applied to all the other shards as they are functionally the same. Then by extension the same can be applied to Adonalsium. If Jasnah does not see the point of worshipping an unknowable, unseeable entity, then the god beyond and any other religion that presents such arguments would fall under the same category for the same reason. If Jasnah has eliminated any proof of existence for any of the religions on Roshar, then by extension, any religions that have those same tenets should be eliminated from consideration. Now as I said (and Jasnah said) it is pointless to try to prove a negative. There is no way anyone could definitively, and unequivocally proof the non-existence of "God". What Jasnah can do however is based on the information she has, come to her personal conclusions that "God" does not exist, and even if such a deity could possibly exist, she does not see the need for one, nor any reason to worship and or acknowledge one. Now you are free to dislike the character. You are free to dislike her beliefs and also free to dislike how she presents them. But just like I cannot prove the non-existence of "God", I cannot prove that Jasnah will never ever consider worshiping a deity because I cannot prove that Brandon would never ever decide to write in a supreme god into his works. He has stated he wants to leave it ambiguous, but I cannot prove the negative that he would never reveal one. What I can do however is based on the information provided in the books, and via WoB prove that based on the religions and entities in the books, Jasnah would not consider them a deity to worship and would continue to be an atheist. Point of order as an aside concerning your comment: "is she simply content to dismantle other peoples' flimsy claims?" She never tries to convert others. They are always the ones who attempt to convert her. She merely responds to their assertions as to why those assertions do not apply for her. So she is not "content to dismantle other people's flimsy claims". They are content to continually hound her in their attempts to find an "ah ha! gotcha!" moment and then get upset when they fail. Kabsal himself admitted his goal in speaking with her was to convert her and be seen as the one that "got her". He is not genuinely concerned for her soul. He does not care to know her beliefs and why she came to them. All he wants is the notoriety to be the one to "get one over" on Jasnah. In the end I think it is best for us to agree to disagree.

I will agree to disagree but Brandon has very clearly stated Jasnah is an atheist, so that by itself does answer your question. I also think the quotes provided show pretty clearly where she stands: 1. almighty (which as per the Vorin religion is all knowing, and all powerful) is not worthy of worship 2. none of the religions she has spoken to and researched give her any conclusive evidence of the existence of a deity 3. she sees no point in worshiping an unknowable entity (which the god beyond that Dalinar feels is filed under) 4. she sees no point in trying to prove a negative. 5. Dalinar points out the division between Jasnah's and his beliefs. Dalinar believes there is a deity out there, just it is not the almighty. Jasnah does not believe in any deity. And she confirms it by saying she does not need company to be sure in her beliefs. Basically this is you attempting to try and get us to prove a negative. Because she did not state a specific phrase to satisfy your criteria, then she must be in the "wait and see camp", which is rather dismissive of all the research and work she went through to come to the conclusions and beliefs that she has. Did Dalinar have to list what he thinks a god is, in order for that golden light to be considered what he is seeking? Just because Jasnah is open to new information, does not mean the new information would be enough to sway her. We have the Almighty as the example. All the other shards are the same. They all derive power in the same manner. They all function ultimately the same. So if one is not applicable as god, then none are. But I will go back to again, Brandon himself refers to her as an atheist. That by itself should be conclusive enough. edit: and Jasnah would be quite proud of my research. She would however take exception if I had gone through the trouble of producing such research, and you had responded without giving it its due time and diligently reading it all. So I hope you did take that time and reviewed the bolded portion as it does already respond to a lot of what you wrote in this post. edit2: perhaps this will clarify. If you believe in god. What is your criteria for you to no longer believe in your god? What can you see or discover that would cause you to no longer worship your deity? How do those questions come off to you? As per your rationale, if you cannot answer me, then you are just a wait and see-er. You are waiting to see if some other deity shows up and you will jump ship to a different religion. Can you see how that sounds?

I support the theory that the heralds are exhibiting madness in contrast to their ideals. So Kalak is not mentally ok because his ideals are resolute/builder. To me the way he acted was most definitely not resolute lol.

Ah ok, good. I was concerned my earlier posts explaining what I feel are Jasnah's beliefs was what you were referring to. In that case, here are some more quotes regarding Jasnah's views on faith. The first one is the same scene but just after Taravangian leaves “Did you really believe the things you said? About the Almighty?” Jasnah was quiet for a moment. “I do. Though perhaps I overstated my conviction.” “The Assuredness Movement of rhetorical theory?” “Yes,” Jasnah said. “I suppose that it was. I must be careful not to put my back toward you as I read today.” Shallan smiled. “A true scholar must not close her mind on any topic,” Jasnah said, “no matter how certain she may feel. Just because I have not yet found a convincing reason to join one of the devotaries does not mean I never will. Though each time I have a discussion like the one today, my convictions grow firmer.” Shallan bit her lip. Jasnah noticed the expression. “You will need to learn to control that, Shallan. It makes your feelings obvious.” “Yes, Brightness.” “Well, out with it.” “Just that your conversation with the king was not entirely fair.” “Oh?” “Because of his, well, you know. His limited capacity. He did quite remarkably, but didn’t make the arguments that someone more versed in Vorin theology might have.” “And what arguments might such a one have made?” “Well, I’m not very well trained in that area myself. But I do think that you ignored, or at least minimized, one vital part of the discussion.” “Which is?” Shallan tapped at her breast. “Our hearts, Brightness. I believe because I feel something, a closeness to the Almighty, a peace that comes when I live my faith.” “The mind is capable of projecting expected emotional responses.” “But didn’t you yourself argue that the way we act—the way we feel about right and wrong—was a defining attribute of our humanity? You used our innate morality to prove your point. So how can you discard my feelings?” “Discard them? No. Regard them with skepticism? Perhaps. Your feelings, Shallan—however powerful—are your own. Not mine. And what I feel is that spending my life trying to earn the favor of an unseen, unknown, and unknowable being who watches me from the sky is an exercise in sheer futility.” She pointed at Shallan with her pen. “But your rhetorical method is improving. We’ll make a scholar of you yet.” Way of Kings page 507 Kabsal nodded. “She is said to be a sterling woman, save for one thing.” “You mean the heresy?” He nodded. “It’s not as bad for me as you think,” she said. “She’s rarely vocal about her beliefs unless provoked.” “She’s ashamed, then.” “I doubt that. Merely considerate.” He eyed her. “You needn’t worry about me,” Shallan said. “Jasnah doesn’t try to persuade me to abandon the devotaries.” Kabsal leaned forward, growing more somber. He was older than she—a man in his mid-twenties, confident, self-assured, and earnest. He was practically the only man near her age that she’d ever talked to outside of her father’s careful supervision. But he was also an ardent. So, of course, nothing could come of it. Could it? “Shallan,” Kabsal said gently, “can you not see how we—how I—would be concerned? Brightness Jasnah is a very powerful and intriguing woman. We would expect her ideas to be infectious.” “Infectious? I thought you said I was the disease.” “I never said that!” “Yes, but I pretended you did. Which is virtually the same thing.” He frowned. “Brightness Shallan, the ardents are worried about you. The souls of the Almighty’s children are our responsibility. Jasnah has a history of corrupting those with whom she comes in contact.” “Really?” Shallan asked, genuinely interested. “Other wards?” “It is not my place to say.” “We can move to another place.” “I’m firm on this point, Brightness. I will not speak of it.” Although that quote does not answer what specifically Jasnah's views are, it does show the climate she deals with. Just existing with her own thoughts is seen as seditious. She cannot even exist with them in silence, for it will be seen as her being ashamed. Now as an aside, Brandon has confirmed on numerous occasions that Jasnah is an atheist. So I do not think I would need to provide every quote in the book to support that assertion, though because I geek out with Jasnah I would be happy to lol. “You will find wise men in any religion, Shallan, and good men in every nation. Those who truly seek wisdom are those who will acknowledge the virtue in their adversaries and who will learn from those who disabuse them of error. All others—heretic, Vorin, Ysperist, or Maakian—are equally closed-minded.” She took her hand from the book, moving as if to stand up. “He’s wrong,” Shallan said suddenly, realizing something. Jasnah turned to her. “Kabsal,” Shallan said, blushing. “He says you’re researching the Voidbringers because you want to prove that Vorinism is false.” Jasnah sniffed in derision. “I would not dedicate four years of my life to such an empty pursuit. It’s idiocy to try to prove a negative. Let the Vorin believe as they wish—the wise among them will find goodness and solace in their faith; the fools would be fools no matter what they believed.” Below is another scene. This is where Jasnah discusses with Dalinar their views on religion. Jasnah denies the existence of any God, while Dalinar believes there is one, just the Almighty is not it. “You have given the world a grand gift. A man can be brave in facing down a hundred enemies, but coming into these—and recording them rather than hiding them—was bravery on an entirely different level.” “It was mere stubbornness. I refused to believe I was mad.” “Then I bless your stubbornness, Uncle.” Jasnah pursed her lips in thought, then continued more softly. “I’m worried about you, Uncle. What people are saying.” “You mean my heresy?” Dalinar said. “I’m less worried about the heresy itself, and more how you’re dealing with the backlash.” Ahead of them, Navani had somehow bullied the Radiant into letting her look at the fabrial. The day was stretching toward late afternoon, the canyon falling into shadow. But this vision was a long one, and he was content to wait upon Navani. He settled down on a rock. “I don’t deny God, Jasnah,” he said. “I simply believe that the being we call the Almighty was never actually God.” “Which is the wise decision to make, considering the accounts of your visions.” Jasnah settled down beside him. “You must be happy to hear me say that,” he said. “I’m happy to have someone to talk to, and I’m certainly happy to see you on a journey of discovery. But am I happy to see you in pain? Am I happy to see you forced to abandon something you held dear?” She shook her head. “I don’t mind people believing what works for them, Uncle. That’s something nobody ever seems to understand—I have no stake in their beliefs. I don’t need company to be confident.” “How do you suffer it, Jasnah?” Dalinar said. “The things people say about you? I see the lies in their eyes before they speak. Or they will tell me, with utter sincerity, things I have reportedly said—even though I deny them. They refuse my own word against the rumors about me!” Jasnah stared out across the canyon. More men were gathering at the other end, a weak, beleaguered group who were only now discovering they were the victors in this contest. A large column of smoke rose in the distance, though he couldn’t see the source. “I wish I had answers, Uncle,” Jasnah said softly. “Fighting makes you strong, but also callous. I worry I have learned too much of the latter and not enough of the former. But I can give you a warning.” He looked toward her, raising his eyebrows. “They will try,” Jasnah said, “to define you by something you are not. Don’t let them. I can be a scholar, a woman, a historian, a Radiant. People will still try to classify me by the thing that makes me an outsider. They want, ironically, the thing I don’t do or believe to be the prime marker of my identity. I have always rejected that, and will continue to do so.” She reached over and put her freehand on his arm. “You are not a heretic, Dalinar Kholin. You are a king, a Radiant, and a father. You are a man with complicated beliefs, who does not accept everything you are told. You decide how you are defined. Don’t surrender that to them. They will gleefully take the chance to define you, if you allow it.” There might still be more. Have to run but will add as I have time.

If a individual asserts that they do not believe in a deity, then why does that individual have to provide a form that they would thereby accept as a deity? That was a quote verbatim from the book. There was no hostility intended regarding religion. In fact the point of that scene, is that everyone assumes Jasnah is a "bitter old heretic" trying to convert everyone around her against the "evil" that is the church. The reality is the opposite. She has her own beliefs. When someone attempts to convert her, she responds to their inquiries. Jasnah was not trying to tell Taravangian he was wrong. She was explaining how she came to the conclusions she did. She does not see a need for a deity, so sees no need to acknowledge or worship one. That does not mean she is trying to change Taravangian's mind, nor attempting to belittle him. Those are the reasons why it does not work for her. If it works for him great, but it does not change it for herself. There is another quote with Shallan where Jasnah says how if anything those conversations further cement her convictions. If you truly feel anything I have said has been derogatory towards your, or anyone else's religion, please report my posts to the moderators, and I will be happy to have a private message/discussion between myself, you and them as to what was offensive and why. edit: there is also a scene between Kabsal and Shallan regarding Jasnah's faith. I would be happy to post that quote as well. I have them all available because I was doing a character study on Jasnah. I posted it as a thread "jasnah more than meets the eye". I am still working on oathbringer but hope to be finished soon.

(just in case, to be clear I was not speaking to you. I wrote "the darkeyes reply" so the intention would be the darkeyes is now speaking. so hope you do not take it as me telling you to suck some crem lol) Well we have confirmation from WoB that you could remain a squire all your life. Becoming a squire doesn't guarantee you will become a radiant, but it also doesn't mean the squiredom will just end. Of course there will be people bitter that they were unable to become a radiant. Then they will deal with it as they decide to deal with it. One of the farming kids said that according to his father, someone stole the shardblade from him. Otherwise he would have been a lighteyes. So some may say there aren't enough spren to go around. Or they may be resentful to the radiants. Or they may try even harder. If you had a child almost at death's door, and an ardent told you it is the almighty's way, while renarin walks up, waves his hand, and your boy is healthy and happy, public perception is going to change. If a friend of yours is now a radiant light eyes, and still acts the same way. Thinks the same way. Then other than powers, people are going to start to question what does light eyes really mean? The vorin church taught it was a divine mandate from the almighty himself. But if a dark eyes can potentially get there without the church, then where is this divine mandate? Why follow the church if all they are saying is what you cannot do, when you see everyday all the things you could possibly do.

The original post asked how Jasnah would view this additional information. I will again let Jasnah speak for herself Way of Kings page 458 “Is it hard for you, Jasnah? Painful, I mean?” “Atheism is not a disease, Your Majesty,” Jasnah said dryly. “It’s not as if I’ve caught a foot rash.” “Of course not, of course not. But … er, isn’t it difficult, having nothing in which to believe?” Shallan leaned forward, still sketching, but keeping her attention on the conversation. Shallan had assumed that training under a heretic would be a little more exciting. She and Kabsal—the witty ardent whom she’d met on her first day in Kharbranth—had chatted several times now about Jasnah’s faith. However, around Jasnah herself, the topic almost never came up. When it did, Jasnah usually changed it. Today, however, she did not. Perhaps she sensed the sincerity in the king’s question. “I wouldn’t say that I have nothing to believe in, Your Majesty. Actually, I have much to believe in. My brother and my uncle, my own abilities. The things I was taught by my parents.” “But, what is right and wrong, you’ve … Well, you’ve discarded that.” “Just because I do not accept the teachings of the devotaries does not mean I’ve discarded a belief in right and wrong.” “But the Almighty determines what is right!” “Must someone, some unseen thing, declare what is right for it to be right? I believe that my own morality—which answers only to my heart—is more sure and true than the morality of those who do right only because they fear retribution.” “But that is the soul of law,” the king said, sounding confused. “If there is no punishment, there can be only chaos.” “If there were no law, some men would do as they wish, yes,” Jasnah said. “But isn’t it remarkable that, given the chance for personal gain at the cost of others, so many people choose what is right?” “Because they fear the Almighty.” “No,” Jasnah said. “I think something innate in us understands that seeking the good of society is usually best for the individual as well. Humankind is noble, when we give it the chance to be. That nobility is something that exists independent of any god’s decree.” “I just don’t see how anything could be outside God’s decrees.” The king shook his head, bemused. “Brightness Jasnah, I don’t mean to argue, but isn’t the very definition of the Almighty that all things exist because of him?” “If you add one and one, that makes two, does it not?” “Well, yes.” “No god needs declare it so for it to be true,” Jasnah said. “So, could we not say that mathematics exists outside the Almighty, independent of him?” “Perhaps.” “Well,” Jasnah said, “I simply claim that morality and human will are independent of him too.” “If you say that,” the king said, chuckling, “then you’ve removed all purpose for the Almighty’s existence!” “Indeed.”

The darkeyed children, and adults too in Kaladin's home of hearthstone would speak of legends of winning a shardblade and becoming a light eyes. Now imagine those people finding out if you follow a radiant around, and act like them, you have a chance to become a radiant light eyes too. Now of course we know there is a lot more to it than that, but they wouldn't. That is why there were countless people staring at infused gemstones, trying to inhale stormlight. Some even swallowed them. Now insert ardent saying to get back to work. Says you are a darkeyes. Your lot in life is to work the land. That is how you worship the great Almighty to fight the voidbringers in the afterlife and reclaim the tranquiline halls. Well darkeyes reply, now wait a minute. The voidbringers are here and now. From what I have heard the Almighty is dead. Scrapping and bowing didn't change that. But those radiants there? That can fly, or heal, or change things with a way of their hands? They are actually doing something. Ardent replies, but the radiants betrayed mankind! It is only through our faith in the almighty that we can..... We can what? How about you go suck some crem. I am going to look real intent like at this gemstone and get me one of those fancy spren. Then I will be able to produce a whole field of food here and now. Not in your after life. Now. I will be able to take care of my family and keep them safe. Can you promise me that? No? Then good bye.

Spren can leave an area to investigate other places. Ivory as an inkspren is very logic driven. I would simply explain to my spren that during this period of time, please research such and such thing. When the time is up return with your findings. Problem solved.

I always kind of felt (though I have nothing to support it, and Rshara's WoB might dispute it), that the reason we see kingdoms kind of lean one way or the other was due to the diaspora from Urithiru. I could see windrunners and stonewards primarily settling in Alethkar, while elsecallers and skybreakers primarily settled in Azir and so on. The tenets and focus of the orders influenced the cultures of the lands that primarily took them in. Just a random thought.

To clarify on "go down". I do not think Vorinism will cease to exist. I think it will need to change some of its tenets and change with the times. I think their best bet in accomplishing that is to try and make an ally in Jasnah instead of an enemy. For me if the Vorin church was antagonistic towards Jasnah and her rulership, it would cause them far more problems and erode their power base further then it has already been eroded. Regarding pushback from darkeyes. I believe it would be the reverse. The darkeyes would push back against the Vorin religion. They were told all this time they could only rise so far. Now if they bond a spren they have equal standing with light eyes, or even above them. Sounds to me it would benefit the darkeyes more to back the radiants that can give them advancement than the vorin church that holds them back.

Could you clarify what you mean by "throw her" or "challenge her"? She is a scholar and a researcher so I could see finding out about new magic systems, and that it is possible to hack them would make the researcher in her light up, and cause her to study without end lol.

Whether it is understandable from your perspective or not, it does not change the definition of the term. Genocide is the elimination of an ethnic group. Nobles (regardless if it got diluted over time) are seen as a separate ethnic group from the skaa. Kelsier wanted them all dead indiscriminately. Quisling is when an individual betrays their own country of origin, and sides with the ruling power, taking on their traits and attempting to emulate their rulers. Kelsier views anyone who collaborates with the nobles in that light and deems them worthy of death. So feel free to feel how you wish about the character. Feel free to feel Kelsier is justified. But to me that does not change what his plan was. Elend was an exception, not because of anything Elend did or was, but because of Vin. Kelsier regretted not letting Elend die. Just because Kelsier was not as successful as he wished he was in exterminating them all, does not change his view. I am going to add more to this when I respond to kingsdaughter as I pulled up the portion in the book Actually it did not predate Kell's appearance. I have quoted the entire scene (removing some portions such as discussing horses, and clothing description) with Allik below (bolding what I feel is the pertinent parts and spoilered for length) but in a TLDR manner, Allik says that the sovereign taught them that metalborn were bits of god. He also taught him that he was the most powerful god like being. He instituted the rule that you must use a different honorific each and every time you speak to a metal born (certainly sounds like something Kelsier would do doesn't it?). When Allik disagreed with what Wax was saying, he said how he would of course change his beliefs if it pleased Wax. Even earlier in the scene Allik is worried that just by commanding Wax to do something, that Wax would lodge a coin into his skull killing him. So I think it is very clear from that scene how metalborn were instituted by Kelsier, and how they are treated/viewed in southern society. King Arthur was a supposed to be a benevolent leader. Nothing I read in that scene speaks to me about benevolence except saving them with heating medallions. The leader of Allik's group only acted the way she did towards Wax because she was so fed up. Her people were tortured and killed. She had frostbite, and was now told to go home empty handed. She also realized her people were technologically superior to the northerners. So I think anyone would be out for blood.