Pathfinder

I started to write a reply when I realized what I should do first. What was it about Octopath Traveler that made you love it? Then based on those answers I can say whether or not what you love about one game could apply to the other game. I personally love both games, but that is because I love customization and character builds coupled with strategy. So let me know what you liked about Octopath Traveler and hopefully I will be able to help.

It has been confirmed that most Rosharans do have the epicanthic fold. Shin are the outliers in that. I believe there is a WoB that say Shin eyes are slightly even wider than on people on Earth that do not have epicanthic folds.

I am inclined to view the 16 shards as Jasnah does: “You’re so sure he isn’t real,” Shallan said. “The Almighty.” “I have no more proof of him than I do of the Thaylen Passions, Nu Ralik of the Purelake, or any other religion.” “And the Heralds? You don’t think they existed?” "I don’t know,” Jasnah said. “There are many things in this world that I don’t understand. For example, there is some slight proof that both the Stormfather and the Almighty are real creatures—simply powerful spren, such as the Nightwatcher.” “Then he would be real.” “I never claimed he was not,” Jasnah said. “I merely claimed that I do not accept him as God, nor do I feel any inclination to worship him." You can have power of varying levels in the Cosmere. Doesn't mean you should be worshiped or viewed as a god. If I can through knowledge and work attain the same thing as any Shard, then they are not deities. They are simply people with access to abilities I have not gotten for myself yet. I do not accept them as being any more divinely superior to me or anyone else. They have the same failings, and foibles as myself, and I would not feel any inclination to worship one or all of them.

The "allomantic grenade" primed with chromium (leecher). Toss at radiant, stormlight goes poof, head shot, dead. Or go Nale's/Rysn's route and bring a pet larkin to eat the stormlight, and then again head shot, or any old shot that could kill a normal person.

Not saying his calculations are necessarily right, but world hoppers tend to be assumed to be either Shin, or have Shin ancestry to explain away their eyes and height.

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I dont understand your point. I feel this thread via the research and conclusions derived from that information accomplished its goal and was very much useful. I felt it caused myself and many others to learn things about gravitation, adhesion, transformation and transportation that we hadn't realized before. I also feel it caused us to learn more about kaladin as a person, and his capabilities as a windrunner. I also feel it caused us to learn more about jasnah as a person and her capabilities as an elsecaller. I think that makes the conclusions I came to of value and that i have done much with them. Just like an episode of mythbusters will not enable someone to learn how to deflect bullets, the conclusions are of value because you leave the experience having learned new things and gained a greater understanding of how it functions. You are perfectly entitled to disagree and both your thoughts and mine can co-exist without issue.

Lol and I as an elsecaller would say this Way of Kings page 461 “I feel inadequate to draw conclusions, Brightness.” “What is the point of research if not to draw conclusions?” “My tutors told me that supposition was only for the very experienced,” Shallan explained. Jasnah sniffed. “Your tutors were idiots. Youthful immaturity is one of the cosmere’s great catalysts for change, Shallan. Do you realize that the Sunmaker was only seventeen when he began his conquest? Gavarah hadn’t reached her twentieth Weeping when she proposed the theory of the three realms.” “But for every Sunmaker or Gavarah, are there not a hundred Gregorhs?” He had been a youthful king notorious for beginning a pointless war with kingdoms that had been his father’s allies. “There was only one Gregorh,” Jasnah said with a grimace, “thankfully. Your point is a valid one. Hence the purpose of education. To be young is about action. To be a scholar is about informed action.” “Or about sitting in an alcove reading about a six-year-old murder.” “I would not have you studying this if there were no point to it,” Jasnah said, opening up another of her own books. “Too many scholars think of research as purely a cerebral pursuit. If we do nothing with the knowledge we gain, then we have wasted our study. Books can store information better than we can—what we do that books cannot is interpret. So if one is not going to draw conclusions, then one might as well just leave the information in the texts.”

Ok I will start out with a general response to both @Karger and @Bigmikey357 So, yes there are numerous variables in this world. Yes anything could theoretically happen. But it has been my experience that when you wish to come to conclusions over something, you do the best you can to eliminate as many variables as possible. Lets take mythbusters for instance. There was a whole episode about if it was possible for a sword to deflect a bullet. So what did they do? They lined up the gun and the sword directly. They tested various ranges. They made a contraption to mimic a sword swinging. They made the sword swing far stronger than it could normally to see if deflecting a bullet was possible at all. Based on the results of those tests, they came to the conclusion that it would not be feasible to attempt to deflect a bullet. You would have to be too far from the shooter to be reasonable to successfully block a bullet. Otherwise the speed of the bullet would be too fast for the human body's reaction time. You would have to be aware of the shooter despite the distance. You would have to some how, despite the distance know where exactly the shooter was targeting and how the wind would affect the change of trajectory of bullet to some how know where to place your blade in time to deflect the bullet. Finally the force of the bullet would either deflect not enough to not hit the target (for instance hitting slightly to the right or left instead of dead on, but still striking the target lethally) or shatter the sword itself, resulting in the swords shards killing the target. So for all these reasons, they concluded deflecting a bullet is not plausible. That is my goal in this bout. To take as much concrete information as we can from the books and WoB, and apply it to a sterile as possible scenario. That I feel is being scientific. I hope we get a ton more examples of her soulcast in the next books as well. But till then I am attempting to derive as much concrete information based on what we have right now. And right now we know (to me) based on the scenes I provided, that Jasnah can soulcast at a distance without pause. You disagree. I respect your thoughts, just I cannot agree with them. So little bit of context. Correct me if I am wrong @Karger but this whole thing started on another thread. Another individual said that soulcasting was so strong, all you need to do is fuel Jasnah and Shallan and it is a win. Karger felt other surges were stronger, and I believe cited Kaladin. So some of us went back and forth over the surges. Karger didn't want to digress the thread, so it was suggested to make a separate one. I was going on the premise we were talking solely about the surges, but Karger titled this Kaladin vs Jasnah. Not saying that to point fingers or blame. I am literally just writing a chronological order of events. We began this thread talking about person A with windrunner surges, and person B with elsecaller surges. Other people quickly jumped in and started comparing Kaladin and Jasnah. Not to reduce the conversation, I adjusted and went based on the new premise. Since a primary argument in favor of Kaladin was his skills as a fighter as the character kaladin and not as a generic windrunner, then so too to be fair, I felt we had to consider Jasnah's skills which I believe I have adequately related as being extensive. Every step of this thread I feel I have referenced either the book or WoB to support her skills and capabilities. That was for me, in an effort to portray this as scientifically as possible despite the subjective nature of some parts of this discussion. Personally I feel throwing variables in such as has been mentioned muddies the water needlessly. I do feel and maintain we can take the information from the book and WoB, and get an accurate picture of Kaladin's and Jasnah's capabilities, and how the powers function and what kind of stormlight out put we are talking. I think based on this picture we can conclude that Jasnah would hold a consistent enough advantage that this question has been resolved. I do not see a point to these percentages you are referring to. I am not saying this to be belittling, and I hope you do not take it in that way. I am saying I do not feel we learn anything from it. I personally love this thread because it has caused me to learn a whole lot more about soulcasting and lashing than i did before. It just so happens I feel what I have learned does (to me) support that Kaladin's skill set is ill suited against Jasnah's. So I covered that in my introductory paragraph to this post. In order to be fair to both parties, and get an unbiased as possible reading, then both parties should have equipment that is well cared for and in working order confirmed by a third party. The fact that an unbiased duel would have to be altered to such an extent in order to allow the swordmaster to prevail I think supports how unfavorable it is to take a sword to a gun fight. To me, to argue otherwise gets down to semantics. Like you said earlier in this thread. Vin could beat the lord ruler. But by using that example you are saying by extension that a normal mistborn could go toe to toe with the lord ruler which is simply not the case. Spoiler for mistborn All very unique, all very specific circumstances. The point of a scientific approach is to remove these variables and make a circumstance that can be repeated conclusively to arrive at the same results each time it is done. If the results gets skewed, then we must find what skewed the result. If it is because of a random problem (dirty equipment contaminating the solution), we do not count that as a valid conclusion. We clean the equipment and try again. It is because of all that that the situation presented is both combatants start a decent amount of space away. Lets say 15 to 20 feet perhaps. It is an open space which allows Kaladin to use his flight to his advantage. It is a plane flat surface in all directions so there isn't any barriers that either party could take advantage of that the other could not. it is only between both combatants. And finally both combatants can only use the abilities that each of a 5th oathed knight could have access to, i.e. sprenblade, two surges, and stormlight. They know each others capabilities. They can see each other. It is a clear day. There is a count down, and then the fight begins. Based on those perimeters, as I have said, I believe based on the information I have gleaned from the books and WoB, that Kaladin's skill set are ill suited to combating Jasnah's. Now that I have hopefully clarified how this all started, how I go about coming to my conclusions, and stating what my conclusions are, I feel I have neglected going over Oathbringer to finish my thread "Jasnah more than meets the eye". I got all the quotes down, but I have not had a chance to write down my thoughts because I have been keeping up on this thread. I feel I have said all I can really say on the topic, so I will leave this thread be, and focus on finishing my other one. I wish you all well. Feel free to continue as you all wish with no objection from me. No malice meant nor taken.

it was stated that the swordman is a martial artist focused in the blade, and that the pistol wielder was a marksmen. So both are extensively trained in their field. Which was used to illustrate the situation with Kaladin and Jasnah. I assumed a clear field, both parties dueling to the death, facing off, a la mortal kombat. Count down, fight. So I was thinking a standard distance of about 15 to 20 feet. We could do closer to like a boxing ring though I think the outcome would still be the same. For me in fights in order to come to conclusions, one must do their best to make all things equal. That is why I feel Kaladin's power set is ill suited to combat Jasnah's. Just like a sword would be ill suited to combat a gun.

Kind of hard to poke holes without defined perimeters lol.(keeping in mind you are requesting that I poke holes in it) Lol touche. To join the convo, how far would you consider fair for both parties to stand apart? My point is there is a reason for the saying "never bring a knife to a gun fight".

Please quantify what you consider "minor" vs "major"? Complexity? Size? The humans she soulcasts to crystal are pretty complex. The wall she soulcasts to smoke is pretty big. According to your theory, where do these rate? So I have something to go on to respond.

Yep, I whole heartily agree. Calderis then put forward what I think is a very good point. The realms being close together may make surgebinding easier, but requirements should still be in place. My problem with unpredictable elements, is because they are unpredictable. As I said to karger. I could say a random meteor falls from the sky and killed Kaladin before he can lash it away, or before he can heal from it. Jasnah wins? it doesn't have to do anything with the powers, their abilities, and how they employ it. So how can we measure it? We established that Kaladin has to spend time and resources to produce them. While Kaladin is smashing rocks and spending stormlight to shoot them off, is time Jasnah can be doing other things, and employing her stormlight towards other ends. She is not going to just stand there patiently while he produces his arsenal. As I have mentioned multiple times across this thread, Jasnah soulcasts steps at distance while running up them before the realms are put together. There is that mysterious time she was "dead" where she could have learned alllllll sorts of things, like kaladin learned from Rock saving his life that you posit. Just we see the potential result with Jasnah while Kaladin remains to be seen till the next book. No problemo. Like I said I just don't want this to devolve. If we have already said all we have to say, then saying it again accomplishes nothing.

How close are you assuming they start lol? I said equidistant. I assumed it would be understood for being 15 to 20 or more feet apart. Much like with Kaladin and Jasnah. Please refer to page 6 of this thread. I wrote a very detailed post with page citations regarding that scene.

Yeah I am sorry but I am not now going down this path too with you. marksman would shoot the swordsman dead long before the swordman could reach him. Period. There is a whole host of reasons (swordsman would need warning to deflect a bullet which if lucky would only work once, then the sword would be broken, and the deflected bullet would still based on tragectory hit the swordman. The speed of the marksman would unload a full clip by then, and so many others. Again things we have references for in real life to draw upon) She was going to execute Renarin from behind in a quick painless strike from her shardblade. We have her PoV leading up to it. She was planning to rally Dalinar and his remaining troops to retreat from the route. Renarin was a very painful and traumatic moment that she had to push herself through before accomplishing the rest. She held back, and then Renarin and her ran the length of the city to the wall. That is when Renarin saw her do all I have mentioned. Then he felt the charge. I editted while you posted a list of all the essences she soulcasted during the battle. 8 out of 10. She would have had been switching them out constantly as she shattered them if the gemstones were required.

And to reiterate jasnah does exactly as swordnimi describes three times before the realms were put together. Soulcasted three guys, soulcasted a wall, and soulcasted steps. All before renarin felt the super charge. No indication of reaching for specific gemstones And the highly skilled sword martial artist can roll a 1 and trip and fall impaling himself on his own sword. The assumption for me is of we are using the best of a given field, then such occurrences aren't on the table. A marksmen would maintain his guns religiously. A marksman would have the speed and accuracy to hit multiple times before the sword martial artist got anywhere near. I could say a random meteor falls from the sky and crushed the sword martial artist. Does that mean the marksmen won based on his capabilities? To me that is a clear no. So I do not see the point in taking such things into consideration. Just as much as jasnah can make a mistake, so can kaladin so that doesn't give us any indicator why one would triumph over the other edit: Just for completeness here is a rough run down of what Jasnah soulcasts from one to another before the realms coming together -three people (flesh) into crystal (lucentia) -wall (talus) into smoke (vapor) -air (zephyr) into steps (talus) after the realms came together -air (zephyr) to oil (tallow) -air (zephyr) to fire (spark) -rock (talus) to air (zephyr) -thin layer of rock (talus) to oil (tallow) -air (zephyr) to rock tomb (talus) -air (zephyr) to bronze (foil) (there may be more) So in summation Jasnah soulcasted zephyr, flesh, lucentia, vapor, talus, tallow, spark, and foil. Eight of the 10. She only left out pulp and blood.

In the interest of full disclosure and being fair to Karger and Bigmike, it would be reasonable to conclude that if Jasnah knew she had a limitation such as relying on specific gemstones to soulcast essences, that she would include a myriad of gemstones with her at all times. We know when she was "killed" she had gemstones sewn into her dress hidden and infused at all times. Now having said that, had Jasnah needed to use specific gemstones to soulcast, given the type of soulcasting she did and frequency in doing so, she should have shattered every single potential one she held prior in the process. That would then require her to run around looking for and grabbing specific gemstones on the field to continue to do so which we do not in fact see her do. So in the end I agree with you, but brought forward the above point in an effort for full disclosure.

Ok, got a whole lot to catch up on. Here we go Jasnah had just been stabbed through the chest and healed from it, while being pulled into another realm and is exhausted. For me that scene was to illustrate the difference between Shallan soulcasting and Jasnah soulcasting. Any resistance Jasnah commands. I would still ask you to explain the speed of soulcasting I keep referencing. What is happening there. Please show me the delay there. Then show me a scene with Kaladin that clearly shows his surgebinding is faster. That is what I am requesting. Actual examples that can be compared. What is shown in the speed of Jasnah's soulcasting in the book that indicates it is slower than Kaladin's. Hopefully I can explain what I mean better. For instance: 1. you have maintained that Kaladin will outlast Jasnah with stormlight and that is one way he could prevail. 2. I provided multiple references in the book of Kaladin blazing through his stormlight without any regard of rationing to the point he has frequently ran out before realizing how low he was. I have also pointed to multiple references in the book where Jasnah has rationed her stormlight and outlasted the other surgebinders. 3. You replied that the experience with Rock, would have taught Kaladin to be more conservative with his stormlight. This portion is conjecture. 4. I replied that based on the multiple instances of Kaladin wasting his stormlight, I have not seen any indication that he would change. This portion is conjecture 5. You base some of your later assertions on the idea that Kaladin would outlast Jasnah with stormlight. That is an idea we have not agreed upon 6. For me, if we are giving Kaladin the benefit of the doubt, allowing him to conserve his stormlight in a way that to me is not reflective in the book, then Jasnah should be able to have access to information she would not have in the book. 7. For me this extends to other examples. Most are from Karger, but some are from you as well. 8. If we cannot agree on the level of stormlight use, then we cannot agree on how it is employed, so then we cannot come to a consensus on who would win in a battle 9. If I understand you correctly (please correct me if I am wrong), you are trying to say Kaladin would win some of the time, and this and that is why. That is not how I am approaching things so that might be where the disconnect is. I am approaching it as taking two individuals with certain skills and certain abilities, and am examining based on the information we have at hand, on who would win, how effectively, and why. For me it isn't about averages. If Jasnah can provide a counter to an ability to Kaladin, I see that as Jasnah winning the bout. If Jasnah can eliminate Kaladin before he can bring his powers to bear, I see that as Jasnah winning the bout. For me it is not about who "wins more". It is about how the powers function, how they interact with other powers, and how the possessors of said powers employ them to a resolution. Hopefully that clarified that portion As I said above, when I say we disagree, I am not referring to "the winner". I am referring to how the powers function, how they interact with other powers, and how the possessors of said powers employ them to a resolution. We disagree on just about every one of those three. That is why I feel it has reached a point of repeating and talking past each other. You can say all day everyday that Kaladin will outlast Jasnah in stormlight use. And I will say all day everyday that that is not the case. You have your reasons to believe as you do and I have my reasons to believe as I do. So repeating them back and forth accomplishes nothing except beating a dead horse. I would rather end a convo amicably based on agreeing to disagree, than repeating each other to the point of frustration. If Kaladin retreated wouldn't he be forfeiting the match? Again the dome is meant to be a counter to an attack. If that was all she could do, then yes the match would be over, but she has a whole host of other possibilities that she could do in response. Which is again why I think Kaladin's power set is ill suited against Jasnah's. Again, where is he getting these boulders? We agreed he has to produce them. So it will take time and stormlight to smash the ground into the right sizes. It will then take a whole bunch of stormlight to lash a boulder enough to send it to her at speed. If you are talking a boulder size that I think you are, then even a shardplate throw wouldn't accelerate it enough to accomplish what you are positing. But again, we disagree on how much lashing takes from stormlight. I provided references of Szeth lashing boulders. I provided references of Kaladin lashing rocks and how that functioned. So for me I am secure in my interpretation. You are secure in yours. So I do not see how we can reach an accommodation. I believe the reason others say Kaladin will attempt to close on Jasnah is because melee combat is his strength. Also as I used in the example of the willshaper, Jasnah's options of soulcasting becomes more limited. She could theoretically get away from Kaladin using oil or teleporting away, but a willshaper would be able to keep on her to prevent that from being useful. As to knowing the full capacity of a windrunner, we have precedent to support that. Jasnah has extensively researched the radiants in preparation for the desolation. She talks to Shallan after meeting Kaladin for the first time and remarks how he does seem a standard example of what she would expect of his windrunner order. Also when she first meets Shallan, she is able to identify based on what two surges Shallan exhibits what order she belongs to, what is the name of the surges, and roughly how they function. Kaladin on the other hand has none of this knowledge. Though I would agree to make it fair he should know what Jasnah is capable of. Calderis already replied to this I am going to try again to locate that smoking gun WoB. I swear it exists because the person was trying to say Jasnah would be more concerned about maintaining the ruse of needing a garnet to soulcast blood than saving Shallan's life. Wish me luck! Calderis says everything I would have said. I agree.

Calderis already replied below regarding soulcasting from the barrier. Now Kaladin also would be using stormlight to stay aloft, which you stated he would do to stay out of her "range" initially. . The reason I said she would see him in through the cognitive realm would allow her to react to him while he would be unable to react to her. For example. She soulcasts the dome. if she sees him swooping in, then soulcast air to gas, spark it at last second and teleport out. Kaladin go boom. If Kaladin then slams the ground to create this giant piece of rock (remember us discussing before that he has to find a way to produce these projectiles?), and then use a whole lot of stormlight (which I think I adequately shown from the book would require a decent chunk of Kaladin's stormlight to accomplish but you disagree so not sure where to go from here regarding this), to then fling it at her with a lashing, she would have plenty of warning to take all sorts of actions. She could transfer to the cognitive which doesn't take much stormlight because she did that when she was run through with a dagger and was busy healing it. She could teleport away. Or she could cut a hole out of her own dome and step aside out of the way of this boulder. kaladin loses a bunch of stormlight, while Jasnah evades without issue. Yep you already asked, and yes I already answered. Please refer to a few pages back. If I am correct on a willshaper's power set, then Jasnah would lose the ranged advantage she has over Kaladin. The willshaper would be in her face in a moment, with a shardblade in her head. Stormlight would be used to heal the wound while the willshaper grappled her. If Jasnah soulcasted oil to get out and slip away, the willshaper would teleport right next to her again. If Jasnah teleported away, the willshaper would teleport right in front of her again. If Jasnah was able to predict where the willshaper would teleport to, and soulcast an explosion waiting for the willshaper, jasnah would get caught in the explosion because it would have to be right next to her. Basically what everyone says Kaladin would benefit from for being close to Jasnah, the willshaper would actually benefit from because it could close the distance instantaneously. That is why I feel a willshaper would potentially win against Jasnah. Conversely in order to accomplish the same goal, the willshaper would have to get into melee with Kaladin. That exchange would benefit Kaladin over the willshaper. That was my point of the for instance. You are assuming a lot regarding Kaladin and his capabilities. I am just evening the playing field by assuming the same for Jasnah. How we think the fight would go down I agree is subjective. Personally I feel I have derived my conclusions from concrete information in the books. You are perfectly entitled to disagree, and I respect that. That is why I do not see the point in pursuing it as we fundamentally disagree on how the surges work. Unless we can agree on that, the rest of this discussion becomes fundamentally pointless. I am not saying that to be derogatory. Just stating what I see it to be. It is like comparing two cooks version of chicken. How can we compare if we cannot agree on what a chicken at its base tastes like? edit: that is why to make it clear it isn't about "who has the last word". I am pretty much at the point of stopping. Not because I am fed up or angry. But as I said, when both parties reach the point where all the information that could be shared has been, and they disagree on certain fundamental points, then an accommodation/agreement cannot be reached. All that would result is circling and talking past each other. And that isn't enjoyable for anyone. I agree True Brandon includes limitations in his magic systems, but I do not think we have enough information to determine what that limitation would be regarding Jasnah's range. Please provide quotes. Jasnah breaks down how to use each essence to Shallan, while in the process of soulcasting them. She is well proficient in it. The different ways of soulcasting are to make it easier. You could command all the essences the same way, but you will struggle if you do so. Jasnah is well practiced enough that she knows the nuance. Just like there is levels to everything. One person can draw a stick figure. Another person can draw a landscape. Another can use dots to show a depth of character to a whole city skyline. jasnah has reached that third level. She not only soulcasts, she practically paints with it. That is part of my frustration with this. both you and bigmike are giving Kaladin all this benefit of the doubt with his capabilities, when we actually see how skilled Jasnah is with soulcasting. I have provided page after page of examples. The woman is incredible at it. it is her order's primary surge. it is the first surge she learned. Regarding the ropes, again please provide quotes. Are you referring to the deleted scene when she was in the cognitive realm with Ivory? When did she struggle? She was almost out of stormlight, and unlike Shallan, she commands the ropes to change and they do. I do not see any struggle.

So since we are putting forward hypotheticals for Kaladin and how he would learn from his experience with Rock to use his stormlight more conservatively, then I would like to refer to the end of Words of Radiance when Jasnah runs into Hoid. She arrives looking very clearly like she has been through many a battle and come out on top. There is a whole lot of Jasnah's past we do not know. So I do not think we can assume she has never fought someone equal to her. I also think she has fought a wide range of enemies. I disagree regarding Kaladin testing her unlike any other opponent. I already gave another example. I think a willshaper could check mate her. I think a dustbringer (depending on how their power works) could check mate her. Jasnah can see into the cognitive realm and keep an eye on where Kaladin is while within the dome so she can adjust her tactics while Kaladin has no idea what is going on in that dome. If the costs are logical, then there should be in book references to support it. I have provided plenty that for me disputes that. So I do not see the point in repeating myself in that as we would just be going in circles and I would not be bringing anything fresh to the discussion regarding that. You are free to feel Kaladin is "a whole 'nother kettle of fish". I disagree and feel I have presented plenty of in book references to support that. Again no point in going through the trouble of posting the quotes all over again if they are not enough to convince you. So I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on Jasnah and Kaladin fighting. And my point is the power set Kaladin has is illsuited when fighting someone with Jasnah's power set. Someone can be the most skilled martial artist in the world with a sword, but it is still not an effective weapon when dealing with someone who is the most skilled marksman in the world with a pistol when the two parties start equidistant away. The martial artist is just not going to win. As per Szeth, you still have to choose a direction and how many lashes. No different than Jasnah soulcasting. When you mention scenes please provide page number or quote it as I have been going through the trouble of doing. I feel once we get to the point of repeating ourselves, we should stop because all it will result in is frustration rather than furthering discourse. It means we have reached a point where we both have received all the information we each have, and that has changed nothing. So to persist would be pointless. Again, i feel I am repeating myself. The instance where Jasnah soulcasted so many times fluidly after the other was before the realms were brought together. Renarin sees her do it all, and then feels the charge from the result of Dalinar. Soulcasting happened first. So it was not at the effect of the realms in that case. You suspect the range, but we do not have anything concrete to say what the range is. Jasnah soulcasted the length of an alley way. That alleyway could be short, or could be long. We just don't know. So while Kaladin is out of range coming up with strategies, Jasnah is just standing there brain dead? Not thinking herself at all? Yes. The smoking gun WoB I have not found yet but I will describe in detail in case anyone can find it faster than me, but I have also included three other WoB that support it as well as add interesting additional information. The WoB I am referring to involves a person asking Brandon about when Jasnah soulcasted Shallan's blood. It came up that Jasnah could have soulcasted the blood without a garnet, and was Jasnah risking Shallan's life just for appearances. I ran briefly through the WoBs and haven't found it yet, but when I do I will post it. Meanwhile of the ones I post below there is a WoB saying the breaking of the stone was Jasnah doing it on purpose to cover her radiant soulcasting which would have involved her taking in the stormlight directly, without need of the gemstone. Another two says radiant soulcasters can do a lot more, with much less limitations than fabrial soulcasters. The last one is interesting because it says you could soulcast shardplate, and by doing so you would destroy it. Posted below (Jasnah fooling people that her gemstones break when soulcasting) Coltonx9 Why do the gems in Jasnah's Soulcaster break when she is using her own ability in the first book? Brandon Sanderson Jasnah is very good at fooling people. (fabrial soulcasters are way more rigid than radiant soulcasters) ebilutionist How would food production be like without soulcasters? Has Alethkar, for example, grown far beyond what it could (population-wise) without them? Brandon Sanderson The food question is a great one. As far as the Alethi go, it's more a matter of concentration than raw food production. Shipping is SLOW in Alethkar. It's long, which makes getting between north and south difficult, and the rivers aren't as useful as they are on (say) Earth. The warcamps, for example, would starve themselves out short order without soulcasters. Supply lines are just not an Alethi strength. Kholinar, while not as big as Scadrian population centers, is also large enough that it depends on soulcasters for some of its food. It could survive without them, though, with northern Alethi food production. Really, warfare is where they've learned to extend themselves, and depend on the soulcasters. Remember, gemstones in them DO break, so you do still need a ready supply of emeralds. The larger, the better. ebilutionist Very interesting on the food logistics of Alethkar - I never did quite imagine Kholinar was smaller than say, Elendel, but the technological progress there explains it. Given how slow food transportation is, I would presume fresh food is a no-go. Are spices and preserved food selling well in Roshar, then? As for population centers, is Kholinar the largest around, or are other places a lot larger? Brandon Sanderson There's a reason that Herdazian food (which makes soulcast meat taste good) is popular these days. Azimir is larger in population than Kholinar. Kholinar is big by Rosharan standards, but far smaller than an Earth population center (like London) at a comparable time. The warcamps had it beat by a lot--depending on how you view the warcamps. (As one city, or ten small ones.) ebilutionist Does that just mean Herdazian food is incredibly spice-heavy, then? Also, why is Soulcast food bland? Is it due to the nature of the object (changing food to food makes it tastier than stone to food), or just because the Soulcaster lacks practice, like Jasnah did with strawberry jam? Brandon Sanderson Flavorful, rather than spicy. Most western food is already spicy. The Herdazians offer something a little different, and are pretty good with soulcast meat. The portability is also a bit of a revolution. Soulcasting anything other than the basic Essence requires some innate knowledge and practice. People could learn to soulcast better food, but it would have to be a Radiant with control over the process. The soulcaster fabrials are far more rigid in what they can create. ebilutionist As for soulcasting - now that is... interesting. So are Surgebinding fabrials more rigid in general? And what of an Honorblade when a non-Herald uses it? Brandon Sanderson A soulcaster is built to do a certain thing, and can do that certain thing well, but without as much flexibility. It is the difference between having a computer output a picture of a circle--following some inputs such as size and some changes to shape--and having an artist who can draw what you want. (again radiant soulcasters do not suffer from the same limitations as fabrial soulcasters. implies you could soulcast rock with a ruby which is a completely different essence) Darkness (paraphrased) Further on in that… do different gemstones hold a different flavor, or different "frequency" of Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Umm…. Nnnnnnnnooooooo… But kind of? Here's the thing: So with the gemstones on Roshar… scientifically some of these gemstones are just really close to one another. Like chemical formula and whatever. But, their cognitive selves and their spiritual selves are gonna be very different because of human perception, right? (sure) And so, the answer is both a no and a yes because of that. So people's perception has sort of changed how the magic works, to an extent… but it's the same amount of investiture, just with slightly different flavorings. Darkness (paraphrased) Right, so… is it easier for a Soulcaster to turn rock into smoke with a smokestone as opposed to a ruby? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) So… Soulcasting… is gonna really depend on whether you're using a soulcaster. Darkness (paraphrased) First is for a Soulcaster, second is for a Surgebinder. Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) A Surgebinder is far less constrained than someone using a device accessing surges, right? A Knight Radiant is far less constrained than somebody using a mechanical means of accessing magic, and I would include Honorblades as a mechanical means of accessing a surge. Darkness (paraphrased) Cool! So with the whole Jasnah scene, she inhales Stormlight, for using Soulcasting. So how is it the Soulcaster appears to glow more fiercely instead of growing dimmer in that scene? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Um… heh heh heh… So… this is perception on Shallan's part, watching and kind of resonating with the Soulcasting, and some weird things are happening that she sees, and not necessarily anyone else is seeing. Darkness (paraphrased) I love that! Alright… Also, did Taravangian recognize that Jasnah was not Soulcasting traditionally? Like was it the hand sinking into the rock that gave it away? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Taravangian knew and already suspected. (shardplate can be soulcasted and would result in destroying the shardplate) Questioner Can Shardplate be Soulcast? Brandon Sanderson Shardplate could be Soulcast, but anything Invested is very difficult to Soulcast and it would essentially destroy it. Which would be one of the few ways to destroy Shardplate.

Lol, on facebook that was 90 percent of the responses as well. I agree. please oh please be a full real borderlands sequel.

Surgebinding speed: and we see that Jasnah has become so proficient at it that that does not slow her down at all. Again please refer to the scene where she soulcasts three things easily before the realms are placed together. No pause. Muscle Memory: Jasnah can do the same exact things with Ivory/spren blade as Kaladin can do with Syl/sprenblade. Jasnah has been working at soulcasting almost exclusively for much longer than Kaladin at surgebinding and her skills show. Jasnah is incredibly proficient with soulcasting as we see time and again in all three books. I could list all over again all the soulcasting she has done that show this. Soulcasting letters into a paper. Soulcasting stairs out of air as she runs up them, Soulcasting three men in sequence just by touching and shoving one. And so on. That is why I really do not see where this idea that Jasnah has slower surgebinding, or takes more to surgebind than kaladin is coming from. The woman has years of experience on Kaladin. As per WoB. How Jasnah handled herself in combat situations during the Battle of Thaylenah begs to differ. Her skill with soulcasting is her combat expertise. It is her weapon of choice. I was responding to both you and Karger. Using pressure to selectively condense oxygen to create a spark to blow Jasnah up. Using pressure to create a wind barrier to deflect explosions. Using pressure to create a wind so powerful as to blast Jasnah away. These are the uses I am referring to. These we have not seen used, nor even know is possible nonetheless if Kaladin would have the knowledge to even know if these things are possible, yet we are considering them in the battle. So too then I feel Jasnah should have the same benefit then. Once again, in the battle of thaylenah, Kaladin lashes a large stone a few times to hit a fused in the head. All this accomplished was surprising the fused with some pain. No head explosion. Not knocking it unconscious. Just pain, and then it flies away. I agree it is a clever addition to have him throw the stone with plate assisted while also lashing it. That is a good idea. What is to stop Jasnah from soulcasting a dome around her to deal with the stone attacks, and knowing he will then fly in to cut through, soulcast an explosive gas that will react to the break, while she had teleported away. My point is that soulcasting provides enough versatility coupled with teleportation to make Kaladin's powers ill suited for fighting Jasnah. His power system is for scouting. That is another WoB. I do not see anything wrong with saying Kaladin's power set would be more effective combating another radiant order. Just like another radiant order would be more effective combating Jasnah as an elsecaller. Saying that a screw driver can be used as a hammer, but not as effective as an actual hammer is not saying a screw driver is an ineffective tool. All it is saying is the screw driver is more effective when used to accomplish a different goal.

Mayhem is coming tomorrow at PAX east! Please tell me I am not the only person hyped for this.

I do feel a willshaper could potentially give an elsecaller a run for their money. I theorize that a willshaper would be much more proficient with transportation and could teleport right up to an elsecaller, and slam a blade through the eye hole of the armor and hold it there. If the elsecaller tried to teleport away, the willshaper could teleport right after and keep on the damage. Anytime the elsecaller tried to soulcast, it would either result in harming herself as well (the explosion idea), or miss the target from the willshaper teleporting away. I could then see the willshaping teleportation not being as effective against a windrunner. The windrunner could also have a problem with the willshaper getting the drop on it, but since the willshapers main means of damage is its shardblade (cohesion wouldn't be effective as the windrunner could fly, unless the willshaper was able to completely encase the windrunner in stone before he got off the ground), it would allow the windrunner a chance to counter before the willshaper popped away. I could also see a stoneward being a decent problem for a willshaper. All the teleporting in the world for the willshaper wouldn't change anything if the stoneward could potentially strengthen their armor and shield themselves from attack. So basically I find the interaction of the powers very interesting lol.

How is a fog spell an impenetrable barrier? If you are in a room where there is a balcony with archers on it, a fog spell is perfect because they cannot do anything unless they: 1. jump off the balcony taking falling damage and are now prone for the rogue to finish off 2. have to walk all the way around, down the stairs, and down the hallway to get to the room, giving time to dispatch the melee units without harassment from archers 3. wait till the fog dissipates which still wastes turns for them allowing the other enemies to be dispatched without harassment. In DnD you always impair ranged units ability to land an attack, while melee units you prevent movement. Casters you put grapple spells on to impair concentration checks. Use the right spell to counter the right unit and you will never have an issue. Jasnah is very intelligent and tactically sound. During the battle of Thaylenah, after she restores the wall, she discusses with Navani and the Thaylen Queen about positioning their forces to repel the fused attacks since they can fly. Oh by the way, she talked about this while killing a fused in midair. Kaladin if he overuses gravitation blacks out from g forces battering his body. He needs stormlight to recover. Jasnah does not have this limitation. Thing is Jasnah has these understandings well enough that she can do soulcasting very quickly. Did you check the scene I posted earlier? Where she literally soulcasted 3 times, one after the other without pause and without problem. Meanwhile if Kaladin attempted that, he would run the risk of g forces harming his body. Again, you are saying these issues which we have literally seen in the book do not apply. Jasnah has trained herself extensively with soulcasting. All these issues she has overcome through training. Radiant soulcasters do not require specific gemstones. It was a trick Jasnah did in order to pretend to be using a normal soulcaster. WoB backs that up. Kaladin has to do the exact same thing when he uses his abilities. He has to chose a target to lash towards to direct his gravity. Jasnah knows about densities, and is a learned woman in science. The scene in Kharbranth with the boulder turned to smoke shows this. She quizzes Shallan's understanding of mass. I have provided numerous book quotes and WoB to back up Jasnah's skills with soulcasting. Could you please provide the same to back up your assertions for Kaladin? I already responded to the "mixed bag" to Karger above. As I requested of Karger, could you please provide in book quotes or WoB that show Kaladin surgebinds faster than Jasnah? Because I have shown numerous examples that show that is not the case. So I really would love to see the evidence that proves that as fact. Jasnah held her own in the battle of Thaylenah just as well as Kaladin. Kaladin has wonderful weapons training. That is great. Except Jasnah isn't using physical weapons and he has to get close to use his. Again, where does it say Kaladin can use his surges based on muscle memory and instinct? Please show me the quotes, because I personally recall scenes where he has to learn to use his surges and train with them to catch up to Szeth. That in order to change direction you have to choose a direction to lash yourself in. Also changing direction too often results in damage to Kaladin. So please I would love some evidence to back up how perfect Kaladin is with his surges in comparison to Jasnah. I also think if we are magically giving Kaladin all this understanding of pressure, and oxygen content, and new powers he has never exhibited before under the assumption that he could potentially have them if he was fully oathed, then I do not think Jasnah should have the limitation on what she could soulcast with her knowledge. Kaladin would have no way of knowing about liquid oxygen or any other of the scientific applications to his abilities. So if Kaladin magically had this know how, then Jasnah should be able to know chemistry too. And it would be a whole lot more plausible for her to know it than Kaladin. He had training as a surgeon. That is great. He can operate on people. But since when does a surgeon study the chemical composition of explosives? Since when does a surgeon study aviation? Since when does a surgeon study engineering? You want to give him these capabilities for the purpose of the fight? Sure! But then such limitations gets removed from Jasnah as well. Why exactly would Jasnah just stand there and let Kaladin "run her dry"? We have seen what happens when Kaladin lashes a large stone at someone (I quoted that too in a prior post). It would require far more lashings to get the kind of impact you are saying. I feel like I am starting to reach the point of repeating myself. I may just need to start responding by referring to the pages where I already posted the responses to some of these arguments, with the coinciding quotes and WoB to back it up. Yeah this is another point that was already covered pages ago. 1. You said kaladin could dodge or move the wind 2. I said soulcasting is instantaneous. Then cited the examples of when Jasnah soulcasted someone before they could stab her, soulcasting the air to oil and ignite it for a fused to fly into, and soulcasting a tomb for a fused out of midair 3. I was responded to by Calderis saying anything that happens during the realms being together doesn't count 4. I responded by listing three soulcastings done one after the other before the realms were brought together that showed she could do that normally 5. the subject matter then changed to other ideas. I can go dig and pull up the pages this went on if you like. I really do feel an enclosed battlefield would hamper Kaladin and benefit Jasnah. For me the assumption for a clear and open field was actually to be fair to kaladin and enable him to use his flying and maneuverability. Why would setting Kaladin on fire do nothing? Fine, we use the same idea you were ready to use to "destroy" Jasnah. Change the air to a highly volatile gas directly around Kaladin and ignite it. Boom. Jasnah also has a spren blade that can be summoned immediately and transform. What is Kaladin going to do if Jasnah blasts away his armor? They both have the same capabilities with plate and sword, not sure why this would be any less a problem for Kaladin than Jasnah. I think that is part of the problem that is coming up in this discussion. Saying Jasnah's powers and her capabilities in using them in not intended to belittle Kaladin. His powers are simply more effective in different circumstances. So I agree with you Being smart as a doctor does not mean he would have the knowledge to accomplish all these other feats posited throughout this thread. I agree the best way to make this fair is to make them both fully oathed knights radiant, both with plate and blade. And all of those things could impair Kaladin just as easily. Not sure why they singly oppose her.

Soulcasting is a practiced art. One Jasnah is well versed in. I provided prior quotes that show the skill in which she employs it prior to the bringing together of the realms. So Jasnah can in fact soulcast quite quickly, as well as do multiple soulcastings in succession. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it was established that Kaladin's pressure control does not create new "air". Manipulating pressure gradients is what would result in moving air around. I am unsure if it is possible to through pressure condense air enough to act as a wall to block an explosion. Kaladin had to learn how to use his abilities through trial and error and practice just like Jasnah. So there is nothing I can recall in the book that would indicate Kaladin would intrinsically have a better handle on his abilities than Jasnah. I have played DnD as well, and it is just as enjoyable to watch melee enemies be neutered by a well placed spell (for instance a immobilize spell preventing a melee enemy from closing, and thereby their whole turn is lost while allies can fire upon it from ranged with impunity. A monster with multiple attacks being blinded by a spell resulting in penalties to every single attack causing it to miss every single ally, and so on). Kaladin has the same exact limitations regarding using surges on a person. Ironically I agree but not as you intended. All the stormlight that Kaladin can shove into his surges will change nothing if transportation or transformation can either negate them, or avoid them completely. edit: there was one game I was rather proud of in DnD. I was a halfing (or gnome, now I am not sure which race) wizard focused on illusions. We entered a cave where we saw frost salamanders on the ceiling. I used a knowledge check to recall frost salamanders take extra damage from fire, and then created an illusion of lava across the floor. The failed their will save and believed the floor was now covered with lava. This allowed us to move to flank them, and attack them while they were restricted by being stuck to the ceiling, or trying to cross the walls because they were afraid of the lava and couldn't come down to attack directly. A well placed spell can do a ton edit 2: also just thought, how would Kaladin realize what Jasnah was doing to stop her? Her transforming oxygen to hydrogen and then igniting it would not be visible to the naked eye. How would he know what was changed into what? Or another option is transform the ground in a sheet under him like she did to the fused and then ignite that. When Kaladin fought Amaram, he saw Amaram do something to the ground, but did not realize what was being done, or respond to it before the ground swallowed his feet and hardened. He realized after the fact to remain aloft. So Jasnah would be able to get the explosion off before he knew what was going on.