Pathfinder

On 1/20/2022 at 11:17 AM, ILIYA said:

I mean certainly possible that there should be weapons for it, I'm just confused why we haven't seen them yet. Why hold back on such valuable weapons in ROW?  

So this is kind of a combination of a bunch of things everyone has said in one way or another to a degree. So lets just break down a war of escalation:

 

1. Side 1 has machine guns and mows down infantry from Side 2

2. Side 2 develops tanks, resistant to machine gun fire and blows up Side 1 infantry

3. Side 1 develops rocket launchers to blow up Side 2's tanks

4. Side 2 develops anti rocket gun systems that shoot it out of the sky

5. Side 1 develops laser systems that can penetrate the hull and blow the fuel line, killing the drivers and making the tank useless

 

Have this rinse and repeat over centuries and multiple wars resulting ultimately in a stalemate. Odium is not defeated for good, Team Honor is not eradicated. Wait a bit and do it all over again. Odium does not want a stalemate. That only works in Honor's best interest. Odium wants to WIN. So this time around, he tries being sneaky. He puts everything into position, so the great leader of the good guys, will end up on his side. He doesn't need any grand weapons. There won't even be a conflict where they are needed. He is so supremely confident, he literally has the singers hang back and essentially says "stand back and hold my beer." Just Renarin ends up being the monkey wrench thrown into his grand system, and messes it all up. So now he should totally bring his entire weapons to bear right? And he starts to. We got the spears, and the power cancelling fabrial. But again instead of going for a war of attrition, he is aiming for the power play. The strike that will knock down all the dominoes. Which is why we got the distraction so they could go after the Sibling. And they would have succeeded too, if it wasn't for those meddling kids! 

So now we got a new holder of Odium, a mysterious new character called El, and a contest of Champions to decide things one way or the other. I assume the priority of the new Odium is to find a way to sneakily win this contest or do something that regardless the outcome, he still gains an advantage. That does not arise from pure weaponry. 

At least that is how I see the situation. 

 

As for the push and pull between shards, Mistborn spoilers:

 

Now having stated all that, I do not believe your theory is the case because it would not make sense to me for Odium to conduct the war as he has so far, knowing that he can only increase the power of his forces, when the knights radiant do, ultimately guaranteeing a stalemate. There would be no possible avenue for his victory. But I do think it is an interesting theory and a clever way to approach the problem. Which is why I wish you luck with it! Who knows, you could end up right, and everything we said could end up just assumptions on our part. 

18 hours ago, berylliosis said:

I had a semi-silly idea for an implementation of copyright in the cosmere.

Essentially, you hold the copyright of a work until people other than you have more Connection to that work (well, probably some more specific threshold that depends on the actual frequency of Connection). Then, it enters the public domain, to be used for anything the fans want.

The natural issue with this is Bondsmithing and other connection manipulation powers, which... doesn't really have a solution, unless there's some way to detect it. But were it not for those (say, on a planet without access to any such powers in the pre-space Cosmere), I think that would actually be a rather good way to measure whether an idea should belong to someone. Better than what we have now, anyways.

Interested in what you guys think of this as a metric

So my big issue with this concept is obsessive fans can gain ownership of works or even in some cases the person themselves. Imagine if the guy that shot John Lennon owned Lennon's name and everything he produced? 

15 hours ago, Fish613 said:

I love this kind of question! I'm a lawyer in real life and I always think law is underused as a worldbuilding tool. I'm really hoping that in the far future of the Cosmere we see things like magical regulation - governments always find a way to regulate / legislate about stuff, and I can't see why magic would be any exception.

In your implementation, would the creator reacquire copyright if their Connection level rose above the threshold again?

I really like the idea of exploiting spiritual attributes to prove ownership. Like previous commentators said, Connection isn't all that well understood, and I think most of the uses we know about are connections between the user and other people, places, or "things" (e.g. spren). Perhaps Identity is a better starting point? If I create something it can be keyed to my Identity, and I can always prove I was the creator. Feruchemy allows us to have public domain (blank my Identity before I create a work) and maybe sell copyright (store my Identity and sell the metalmind, though you run into problems if you want to sell copyright in just one thing at a time).

Hemalurgy messes with this, but 1) you can always check someone for spikes before you test their Identity; and 2) hemalurgy messes with everything, so as long as we're theorising about legal systems here, we should probably just ban it...

Check out Max Gladstone's series starting with "Three Parts Dead". Basically magic is ruled by contracts and arrangements so there are huge magical law firms with lich ceos. And it's not done ironically, but quite seriously. Eventually it got too onerous for me but I did enjoy the concepts and the first book or so. Might be right up your alley

3 hours ago, Valigus said:

I maintain and have maintained since I read the book that they are fused, they have glowing red eyes are mistaken for kandra and have no regard for their own lives

Already had that fake out. The newspaper article hinting that creatures that looked like them came out of a body of water that was hinted to be a perpendicularity. Then how Marasi first saw Allik. Ultimately revealed to be southern scadrialians

5 hours ago, ILIYA said:

My problem though isn't that the radiance are stronger than the fused, it's that they are lot lot stronger than fused. That's why I fail to see how the ancient radiance who had plenty in 4th and 5th ideal along with other advantages couldn't easily wipe out the fused with no casualties during desolations. As for Parshendi they could also easily contain them in a secure area of Roshar without needing to kill or harm them. 

 

The fact that fused can't be killed is not a problem if they are like flees compared to you, just kill them easily each desolation and relax, as for singers just make a wall and give them areas of land. 

I'm sure my theory is not a strong one but my real problem is the question of why the Fused were giving ancient radiance and heralds so much trouble? 

 

 

Yea I don't have much faith in the theory, it's just I can't find any answers on why the fused who are so much weaker than radiance in RoW were giving ancient radiance so much trouble, even winning in desolations...

I thought the Fused were sleep in the 4500 years rather than sitting around. Still though my problem isn't that the Fused for example the persuer lacked the skills to fight the radiance. Even in perfect condition and mastery of his skills I fail to see how he could fight even a novice radiant of the 4th ideal with plate. He simply doesn't have the power to do so, it's like a twinborn fighting a mistborn or a guy with a sword fighting someone with an AK-47. It's simply a power outmatch regardless of skills. 

As for power though it only seems to be Dalinar that has become more powerful than ancient radiance, the rest of similar abilities e.g Kaladin doesn't seem to be able to do anything that the ancient radiance windrunners couldn't? Still they had storms and access to perfect gemstones, I feel like if lack of stormlight was a such a huge issue it would have been mentioned explicitly in radiant records or the visions. We need consider void-light was probably also less accessbile since Odium didn't have his own storm then. 

You mean the thunderclast right? Yea there seem to be few of them but even in mass they shouldn't posses real threats to radiance of 4th ideal as we saw them in Oathbringer. The Radiance with forces of gravitation and  Abrasion should be able to cut through them with ease as the thunderclasts won't have any real support in battles. Not to mention the radiance should have aerial supremacy all the time since I fail to see how heavily ones could do anything against plate.

 

 Thanks everyone for the feedback and points. On a second note though another theory could be that the entire team it really is

 

 

 

But they also didn't have raw power either though? That's my main issue, once a radiant reaches 4th ideal and gains plate they totally outclass every fused, especially the radiance of the combat orders. I really fail to see how the pursuer or Leshwi could fight any windrunner of the 4th ideal even if he was in perfect conditions, his powers are simply outmatched. Like he was struggling to even kill Kaladin with limited powers... 

I think a good depiction of raw power gone mad are the heralds, you can clearly see Ishar and Nale totally overpowering the radiance. They showed the real strength of the past radiance. This brings me to the point, if Nale for example wasn't mad and decided he was gonna go the nine's cave and wipe out the entire Fused's leadership, I don't see anything on Fused's side that could stop him. That's why I'm confused how the Fused were a threat to radiance in the past. 

The reason I said why Fused's power could be related was because of the push-pull effect of shards we saw in secret history and end of mistborn first era, The more honor and cultivation allowed radiance to use their investiture the more options it gave Odium to let his Fused use more his investiture. 

As for first I really don't think the support from non-radiance is significant at all. As mentioned in the thread my reasonings, for example we saw Szeth with a single honorblade literally bring Roshar to its knees and that's with humans having access to shards and half-shards. Imagine what a single skybreaker of the 4th ideal could do against Parshendi... 

second: Agreed on this one. As I mentioned unmade and thunderclasts are the only possible real threats but imagining them against a group of radiance of 4th ideal they would lose easily as both unmade and thunderclasts are vulnerable and need protection to be effective which the fused can not provide due to being severely outscale by high-level radiance. The thunderclasts will just get crushed from the sky or by stonewards or edgedancers/dustbringers from the ground while the unmade are vulnerable since no one can protect their hearts from being accessed and entrapped in gemstones. 

As for Third, it's the same with radiant squires who are inexperienced, worse even since their radiants don't know how their power works really either so can't teach them whereas fused are experienced. Not to mention Odium has access to skybreakers dustbringers and nations of jah keved and iri so humans are on their side as well in plenty of numbers. 

As for fourth I agree they are mad and make stupid decisions but that's the problem with them. They are also very weak in power relatviley. Ishar and Nale are far worse in madness than Fused yet they are both extremely deadly and had it not been for Nightblood and Dalinar's new found powers they would single-handly destroyed the radiance leadership. Madness is not a reason for the lack of power of fighting skills as shown by Heralds but lack of decision making. 

Also not to mention the Fused were probably as mad near the end of war as they are now. Remember it's the cycle of fighting, death and rebirth that caused them to go insane. Not that they were sleep in Braize during the resting period between desolations. 

 

 

 

Thanks, everyone for your replies and feedback, really appreciate it. 

Totally get where you are coming from, but here is an example of why I feel there is more to come:

Around the time words of radiance and oathbringer was published, it was said here and there that the radiants of the 3rd oath were unstoppable as long as they had stormlight. Shallan took an arrow to the head after all and was able to just yank it out and be fine right? They can heal from anything, so what challenge could there be for the radiants fighting in the past? Then the heavenly ones spears popped up in rhythm of war. A spear that so long as it pierces the skin, stormlight is drained. Now I know, 4th ideal with armor could prevent that unless you got the spear through the eye hole, but my point is this:

it was assumed stormlight healing made fighting trivial till a weapon was revealed that could counter that. Would it not be reasonable to consider that there are more weapons and/or abilities that could counter a 4th oath radiant that we have yet to see?

13 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

A fascinating idea. Perhaps someone who wasn't an Elantran, but who studied the use of Aons intensely, could create these than give them to Elantrians to make work. Perhaps you could even make more advanced Elantrian equations work this way if you got detailed enough.

Don't know if you ever read the series "The Imager Portfolio", but if what you say is the case, I could see things working out very similarly to that. In the book series, those imagers that are relatively unskilled are used to image into existence basic machine parts and materials that can be then used for more complex development. While the greater skilled imagers are used in espionage or other more complex pursuits. Basically elantrians that are not as proficient in drawing aons, can be provided this equations and they just follow the outlines mass producing them, while those more proficient handle more complex tasks such as the development of such equations. 

There is a theory that has popped up in the past that they are Svrakiss. Here are a bunch of WoB that Brandon has RAFO. 

 

Questioner

Miles Hundredlives, is he possessed by a svrakiss from Elantris?

Brandon Sanderson

*long pause* That's a RAFO, you are onto something... I wouldn't say possessed, but influenced by something is definitely a possibility. You are not 100% on.

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Sept. 4, 2014)

 

Dirigible (paraphrased)

Are the Svrakiss cognitive shadows?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

RAFO. But you expected that.

Arcanum Unbounded Fort Collins signing (Nov. 29, 2016)

 

Dirigible

Have we seen a Svrakiss in a book so far?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... RAFO

Dirigible

Can you tell us anything about Svrakiss, like are they originally from Sel?

Brandon Sanderson

Um... I'm not going to go into that.

Calamity Denver signing (Feb. 19, 2016)

14 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Second, seems like not all Odium's forces are on Roshar, or as active as should be. We've seen just two Thunderclasts for now, should be more of them, also Unmade are not as active as they were - for example Re-Sephir wasnt doing too much, Sia-Anat is activly betraing Odium, and few of them we simply didnt see yet.

This is how I have seen the situation for awhile, and I believe the WoB I have posted below supports that. Having said that, @ILIYA, you have an interesting theory and I wish you luck with it!

 

Questioner

If I had any questions at all, I would say: ramp? Stormlight Archive, as it's going forward, like super power creep issues. The characters get so powerful so quickly, and it's gonna be a 10 (hopefully) book series.

Brandon Sanderson

Remember, it's two sets of five. And we will be... how about this. We're just gonna RAFO you now, because I'm being recorded. I'm not gonna give you any hints about the future. Just... I've got it in hand.

I was able to write three books about Rand al'Thor at the height of his power, so I'm pretty convinced I'll be okay.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

53 minutes ago, CryoZenith said:

My biggest issue with the theory that Trell is Autonomy/an Avatar of Autonomy is this:

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*With a smirk* Trell is not native to Yolen.

Shadows of Self San Diego signing (Oct. 8, 2015)

And since Bavadin is both the current AND original Vessel of Autonomy...

I think that would all still line up if Trell was an Avatar of Autonomy. For instance we have confirmed that:

 

 

5 hours ago, Bort said:

While not confirmed precisely, there is a scene in WoR where a distracted Adolin is finding it very difficult to maintain a summoned Shardblade when it's not in his hands. Adolin Kholin, quite possibly the best duelist in Alethkar, with years of training under his belt, couldn't maintain his Shardblade in training because he was bit distracted by the visit from Szeth the night before.

If someone like Adolin had problems then, what makes you think Shallan could maintain Testament after going through that?

I believe where the disconnect is happening is when shardblades were first grabbed, they could not be dismissed. You had to carry a giant sword with you everywhere. There is WoB on that. It is affixing the gemstone that allows it to be bonded, and dismissed. So since Shallan did not affix a gemstone to bond to the blade, she could not have dismissed it. Though it could be said considering she is the original radiant that broke the oath, perhaps there is still semi a connection enough to dismiss it, avoiding that issue. (highlighted the pertinent portion of the WoB)

 

Adontis

I've always wondered, how do you determine where the line between "Word of Brandon" and "Read and Find Out" is? Has it ever caused issues where you've said something, but later that thing changed when it went into a book making your first statement now false?

Thanks so much for writing as much as you do, I'm looking forward to all your upcoming books, keep up the great work!

Brandon Sanderson

Boy, this one is an art, not a science.

I've several times said something that I later decided to change in a book. I've always got this idea in the back of my head that the books are canon, and things I say at signing aren't 100% canon. This is part because of a habit I have of falling back on things I decided years ago, then revised in notes after I realized they didn't work. My off-the-cuff instinct is still to go with what I had in my head for years, even when it's no longer canon.

An example of this are Shardblades. In the first draft of TWoK in 2002, I had the mechanics of the weapons work in a specific way. (If you wanted to steal one from someone, you knock off the bonding gemstone, and it breaks the bond.) I later decided it was more dramatic if you couldn't steal a Shardblade that way--you had to kill the person or force them to relinquish the bond. It worked far better.

But in Oathbringer, Peter had to remind me of that change, as I just kind of nonchalantly wrote into a scene a comment about knocking off a gemstone to steal a Shardblade. These things leak back in, as you might expect for a series I've been working on for some twenty years now--with lore being revised all along.

So...short answer...yes, I've contradicted myself a number of times. I try very, very hard to let the books be the canon however. So you can default to them.

As for what I answer and what I RAFO...it depends on how much I want to reveal at the moment, if I'm trying to preserve specific surprises, or if I just want people to focus on other things at the moment. Like I said, art and not science.

damenleeturks

In WoR, Navani muses to Dalinar about how the gemstones in the Blades could be the focus that allows the bond with the Blade to exist. If this theory is correct, it would follow that someone could damage that gemstone and thus be able to steal the Blade with it then having no intact bonding mechanism, right?

I guess I'm having trouble seeing how the example you describe isn't possible.

Peter Ahlstrom

The gemstone is needed to create the bond and operate the bond's functions. If you remove the gemstone, the person the sword is bonded to can't summon it or dismiss it to mist. But neither can anyone else. If they eventually pop another gemstone in and try to bond it themselves, they will fail, and the original person can then resummon their Blade. The bond is with the dead spren of the Blade, not with the gemstone. The stone facilitates the bond.

So, you can haul around a de-gemstoned Blade with you all the time and successfully steal it that way. But this makes it very easy to steal back. You'd have to kill the holder of the bond in order to rebond it. Which is no different from usual.

And in general, if you can get close enough to a Shardbearer to steal their Blade, you are also close enough to kill them anyway.

Phantine

So that scene where Dalinar crushes the gemstone and hands the Shardblade over, he's also doing some sort of mystical de-bonding?

Or is it just 'if you WANT to give it up, you gave it up'?

Peter Ahlstrom

Yes, if you want to give it up, you gave it up.

Phantine

If nobody is currently bonded to it, does the attuning still take a week?

Otherwise it seems weird people would figure out putting a gemstone in hilt lets you summon it, since nothing would happen without a week of bonding time.

ricree

Not that weird. One of the books (WoK, I think) mentions that many years passed before the gemstone bonding was discovered. Shardblades were still really valuable, though, and even more vulnerable to theft, so it makes sense that people would have kept them close at hand long enough for the bonding process.

Other than that, all you need is someone to accidentally decorate the blade correctly, which is something that took a long time to happen, but was probably bound to happen eventually considering how key infused gemstones are to the world.

Peter Ahlstrom

Well said.

/r/fantasy AMA 2017 (Feb. 10, 2017)

17 hours ago, agrabes said:

Thanks - Excellent post!   I do remember reading that first WoB at some point.  And really, I think as far as that one goes, he actually nailed that feeling.  Amaram (to me) does come across as a politician playing realpolitik in tWoK and WoR - someone who carefully weighs doing things that are morally good for everyone on a scale vs. things that gain personal power or power for his country but might be immoral to the "out" group and will do whichever one he thinks gains more value for his citizens.  That can be extremely upsetting to people like Kaladin who want to see their politicians value moral character above all.  It bothered me less, because I saw it in that context - Amaram had a job to do.  And the unfortunate reality is that in real life especially in war time you have to play realpolitik.  Amaram didn't have to do what he did, he could have chosen better.  And clearly, he knew that he chose the immoral option.  But, he knew it would weaken him forever as a politician and that would have negative impacts on his career and by extension the people he ruled.  Being ruthless and amoral in the context of his job is something that makes him a bad person, but not an evil monster in my book.  Up until OB, we never saw him do anything immoral outside the context of either advancing his career or his religious mission.  

That's just how I saw Amaram though, others definitely saw him differently.  I think it's clear Sanderson had a different vision of Amaram in his head at least during the time he was writing OB.

Anyway, appreciate you taking the time to reference those.

Yeah, it looks like to me that he intended Amaram to be an inner monster for Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and Oathbringer, but when he received some of the fan disconnect, he walked it back to be a bit of a descent. That way it would come off as still a progression, but maintain the purpose of being a false face.

 

edit: Having re-read your post, the part about advancing his career and religious mission, I do personally disagree with you on that, and have a WoB (that I have to find. Arcanum has been difficult finding WoB on of late.) to back that up. But I am not stating that to try and change how you feel about the character. More for completeness in presentation. 

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The theory is good. In fact, too good. If he is good enough at pretending, how do you tell the difference?

By the scenes where his delusion is challenged. 

 

1. Challenged by Kaladin after killing Kaladin's men

2. Challenged by Dalinar to save Adolin in the ring during the 4 shardbearer fight

3. Challenged by Kaladin in the ring after the 4 shardbearer fight

4. Challenged by Dalinar regarding the theft of the shardblade

5. Challenged by meeting the Herald Taln with his madness

6. Challenged by the events unfolding at the end of Words of Radiance

7. Challenged by Dalinar repeatedly when claiming to be trying to reunite Kholin and Sadeas princedoms

8. Challenged by Jasnah in front of the scholars

9. Challenged by Dalinar regarding the positioning of Amaram's forces

10. Challenged by Kaladin during their final fight after consuming Yelig-nar

 

Hmm, came out to ten. Totally did not intend that, but that's cool lol. Basically those are prime examples of moments where his delusion is challenged, he has a crisis moment, and then he acts (by trying to remove the disruption) or rationalizes (by finding an excuse) to reassert the delusion. 

But I acknowledge fans of the character will view those moments in a different light. I was just responding to your query on how I tell the difference. 

13 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The goal was not met. Such a person would have just killed Kaladin. Nor written the letter to Restares.

So I prescribe to the theory that Amaram had narcissistic personality disorder. The theory goes into all his various interactions he has had in that light, and makes sense to me. So someone with such a disorder would have gone through those self reflections, and actions to maintain the delusion, and then when the reality disputes the delusion, follow it up with the mental leaps to maintain said delusion. But I don't think the intention was to debate Amaram. If you are curious about the arguments for and against Amaram having narcissistic personality disorder, I can pull up the thread that went into it at length, and link it if you like. 

1 minute ago, agrabes said:

I think I'd heard that before and I don't dispute it.  Sanderson has said he considers Amaram to have always been evil to the core and only putting on a nice face.  So really the question to me is:

Did he originally intend that from the beginning and just write Amaram too sympathetically in tWoK and WoR that gave some of us the wrong impression or did he change his mind at some point during the writing?  Because Sanderson does introduce those bad behaviors in the RoW prologue, so I think it's clear Sanderson's current intent at least since writing OB is that Amaram was always bad. 

So the answer to that does actually come up in the WoB I was referring to, so I will post them below and offer a little commentary for why I still posted them in line with your question. But TLDR, Amaram was always meant to be that way since Way of Kings. We just didn't get to see it on screen as much, and since the reaction to Oathbringer, he has walked back his responses a bit for Amaram to still be bad inside, with the outside still being a façade, but it to be a slightly more downward progression over time. 

 

So first, WoB on Brandon's original intent for Amaram being a representation of being all show regarding honorable, rather than actually being:

 

Coachdorax

Did you write Amaram as an opposite of Dalinar or was he simply a bad guy meant to spur Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

I meant Amaram to be the representation of the corrupt side of the Alethi. Meaning they are all talk and very little heart. Very little of what they say, to the worst of the Alethi, gets to who they really are. They would rather be known as someone honorable than be actually honorable. And this I consider a major problem with their society, and I needed somebody to represent this. Part of it is, to represent a contrast to Kaladin’s ideals. This belief that lighteyes were these paragons of virtue. But I also needed somebody, you may say an opposite to Dalinar. In a way, he is an opposite to Dalinar, but more he just represents Alethi society. And I did want it to be that he wasn’t just all the way corrupt. When he makes his decision in Book One in the flashbacks, he is making a decision. There is a moment where he is considering. By the time you are seeing him in later books, that decision has taken him down a path that leaves him very far from any sort of redemption. But it was a choice. And he wasn’t just corrupt from the get go. But yeah, he represents what I feel would be bad about Alethi society. A kind of honor society that is more about looking honorable than being.

YouTube Livestream 2 (Jan. 20, 2020)

 

This WoB discusses how Brandon felt there was a gradual descent that really started at the moment with Kaladin, but it wasn't shown due to page constraints. That what he did with Kaladin was the worse thing Amaram ever did, so that Amaram was going down the bad road since at least Way of Kings. Just we didn't get to see it

 

Steeldancer

In Oathbringer, my one big issue with Oathbringer was Amaram's turn. I'm curious why you chose to not hint more at his turn. It felt a little bit out of nowhere. What were your thoughts on Amaram?

Brandon Sanderson

Which turn are you talking about?

Steeldancer

When he turns to Odium's side and he's like, "Okay, now I'm going to consume an Unmade."

Brandon Sanderson

I feel like Amaram was a slow and steady descent. But you didn't get to see viewpoints from him as he was doing it. And what he did to Kaladin was worse than anything he did in Oathbringer, in my mind.

Steeldancer

Why did you choose not to give him viewpoints.

Brandon Sanderson

Too many characters. To many people to give viewpoints to. It was kicked around. I kicked it around for a while. There just wasn't enough.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

Finally, another WoB that show Amaram was initially supposed to be portrayed even worse, but that since publishing Oathbringer, he has started walking back on that. So initially Amaram was intended to be pure monster inside that can finally show his true colors. Since Oathbringer, Brandon has tweaked that a little bit.

 

Oversleep

Two characters who I believe Brandon absolutely butchered in terms of what their setup was and what happened to them.

[...]

Amaram. Suddenly, completely out of left field, Amaram has been talking to Odium, betrayed all he worked and believed in, sides with Odium... And becomes inhuman monster nobody will lose any sleep over getting rid of. Seriously, what the hell? 

Rayse. Similar complaint of setting someone up for one thing then just conveniently cutting out: Rayse. He's been set up, multiple times, in multiple books, by multiple characters, as the Big Bad (or at least close to it).

[...]

And after all that build up of Rayse and what he turned out to be... How am I supposed to believe Taravangian, the newest of the Vessels, is going to be any threat at all?

Brandon Sanderson

While I kind of agree on Amaram, I don't on Rayse--but it's useful for me to read this sort of thing.

The goal with Amaram was to finally let him be the monster on the outside he was on the inside--and so the sequence felt thematically right to me in outlining and writing. Since the publication, though, I've walked back this opinion somewhat. While the sequence works as intended, it's not quite right, and if I were doing the book over I'd try something different.

Footnote: The post Brandon is responding to is much longer than the excerpt here.
General Reddit 2021 (Feb. 25, 2021)

 

 

3 minutes ago, agrabes said:

The difference is that early in the story he sometimes did bad things but felt bad about it, but most of the time he didn't do bad things because he genuinely didn't want to do bad things.  He was portrayed that way in tWoK and WoR and it made him interesting - that there were rational arguments to be made that he did the right thing in the big picture.  It was an interesting commentary about the challenges of leadership and how someone can trick themself into going astray.  It sounds like you don't see it way and that's fine.  

Starting in OB, his character was retconned to have always been doing bad things and always having bad motivations.  That made him boring and lame and a massive letdown as a character. 

At the end of OB, we do get the part where he says he lost control of himself after realizing he had been wrong all along about his plan to cause the desolation to bring back the Heralds and went to Odium.  And you can say then that his uncharacteristic behavior in OB makes sense in that context.  That much is fine, though a little disappointing.  If he had just changed how he behaved starting in OB after he gets a full dose of Odium, I don't think you'd see a significant number of people feeling like his character got the shaft in OB.  It's the part where the rest of his character is retconned to having always been rotten and evil in all aspects of his life that is lame.  

So I totally respect you liked Amaram and felt he was done dirty. To each their own. I am only here to chime in on the party that he genuine was good and tried in the beginning. I have about two or three WoB that clearly state that the "do gooder" was the face Amaram put on for the world. That was not who he really was. If you would like to see the WoB, I will be happy to provide. Now I believe the book also showed this, but I imagine you would disagree on that, and I respect your opinion.

22 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Does gold healing only heal portions of the spiritweb that don't currently have a spike in them?   Would you have to respike with duralumin every time you try to heal the person?   

Could a powerful enough duralumin compounder use their stored connection to convince a person to willingly tap a medallion to heal themselves enough to get a few spikes if it could?  

Not that any of this would ever liberate Kandra.  I wanted to think that a blessing of stability combined with an ability to be a coppercloud might protect them from ruins influence but with Harmony at the reigns I don't there is anything in Scadrials power that could negate it hence I jump back to old magic via the nightwatcher.  

 

12 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Thank you for clearing that up  

By the way, I really like your theory on how it's the conflicting Identity of what's in the Hemalurgic spike and the recipient's spiritweb, and that being what causes the damage to your spiritweb. Would you mind if I included it in a post I'm planning on making about theories as to why Hemalurgy causes damage to the soul?

@Tamriel Wolfsbaine and @Trusk'our So first and foremost I want to preface what I am about to say with I have not extensively read up on hemalurgy, so I could be making some gross assumptions. For instance I had forgotten there was even a spike that stole identity, which makes sense for there to be one. I did a little brief digging to see if this has come up, and Brandon has said repeatedly anything concerning hemalurgy and identity he is RAFOing because he intends to dig into it later. Considering some other comments, it looks like it is going to come up in the Lost Metal, so our questions may be answered soonish. 

Going on the theory/premise that the main cause of the distortion to the spirit-web is because of the identity issues of the foreign spirit-web being spiked to it, and that by spiking out the identity first, and then stealing the power may resolve this. As I typed this I tried doing some more digging, and now I am not totally sure the spiritual identity could be stolen, or if it could be, then that would prevent power usage/recovery because the reason why Miles could still heal back, is he is still spiritually connected to the power. Hmmm, this stuff gets weird. I will post the WoB that I have been reading that confuse the issue lol. Feel free to use the theory on the identity, but it looks like there are a whole bunch of other moving parts to it that I do not fully understand. 

 

HazelCharm47

Let's say we have a hypothetical situation with Miles Hundredlives. In this scenario, he is wearing a gold metalmind filled to the brim with stored healing power. He is then spiked with a cadmium spike and loses his gold allomancy.

Now, if I recall from various WoBs, he would be able to heal using the gold metalmind and regain his gold allomancy. I could be misremembering and he cannot heal it, but I believe he would be able to since it is part of his Identity.

However, one question I have never seen the answer to is this: what happens to the ability in the spike? Is the allomantic ability still contained in the spike, leading to a duplicate? Or is the spike's ability lost? Or maybe I have this whole thing wrong and Miles could never have regained the ability in the first place.

If the ability duplicates (which I doubt), that could lead to some crazy things. Also, this applies to any Twinborn with gold Feruchemy, I just thought Miles was a good example I guess

Brandon Sanderson

I'd like to see the exact WoB's here to make sure I'm being consistent, as I don't know that I confirmed you could regain lost powers--only that you could heal from hemalurgic soul damage. Most likely, what you'd end up with is a person who has been healed and can remove the spike from their body without damage, and without needing it to hold their soul together--but who has lost the ability in the spike.

Regardless, though, what you want here (the mass production of spikes charged and even blanked) is possible with the right levels of investiture. It's an energy, like things in our world. The difficulty is finding out how to 1) get enough investiture and 2) key it to the right people and/or magic.

Hope that's a little more clear.

That said, a lot of times people just ask me if something is possible--and a lot of things are possible, but just very difficult. And with the right boost of investiture, in the right circumstances, it WOULD be possible to regrow lost (to spikes) powers. It's just highly unlikely.

I'm not sure if the questions people are asking me are ones I've qualified, or not, in these instances. Also, this is all something I'm playing with still behind the scenes as we enter the modern age of Mistborn.

HazelCharm47

As requested, here are the WoBs I believe are related. They might be obsolete, however. And I assume things will get changed a lot before Era 4, but hey, it's fun to ask anyways

WoB #1:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9434

This one states that as long as Miles still has his Identity, he would be able to use his Feruchemical metalminds after being spiked and would be able to heal.

WoB #2:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/102/#e983

This one says that Miles would be able to heal his soul using Feruchemical healing and regain his gold Allomancy (assuming he survives the spiking). I think this is the most essential one!

WoB #3:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76/#e6335

This one is only somewhat related - implies that the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers are spiritually part of him.

WoB #4:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/7/#e6435

Also tangentially related - damage to the soul from Hemalurgy can be healed (Although this might just be a Hoid thing). I guess the question could be expanded to include non-Feruchemical healing as a way to repair the soul after being spiked.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, I don't think any of those are specifically inaccurate. I just didn't quite understand what people were trying to get out of me. A lot of times, I don't know quite what people are trying to get out of me. I can see now they're trying to figure out.

I see now, and I appreciate you putting this all together for me so I can see what the fans are trying to figure out. So the answer is a cautious yes. The problem here is that he'd need to compound a TON of healing first--but yes, it would work. You could theoretically turn someone like Miles into an invested spike factory.

If he didn't have enough healing stored, though, he'd end up with a healed soul but a gap (like a scar on his soul) where his spiked-out abilities were. That could theoretically be healed with application of more investiture, depending on things like how he views himself, and if you could get the right type of investiture.

General Reddit 2020 (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

 

Questioner

So, Miles Hundredlives. If you were to spike his Allomantic gold out of him, would that change his Identity such that he could no longer access his metalminds?

Brandon Sanderson

That would not necessarily change his Identity, but it would change his Investiture. So if you took off the piece of his soul that could do Allomancy, and then gave him his metalminds. Well, no... No, this is more complicated than I was assuming. So you're saying if someone took away his ability to do Allomancy, could he still access his Feruchemy metalminds. Yes he could. He could still do that. That should work just fine. 

Questioner

Do the metalminds kind of have a pointer to his Identity, they don't have a copy of his Identity that they're keyed to? 

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah... he is still him unless you spike him and do something with the Identity specifically. 

Questioner

So you could potentially steal his Identity.

Brandon Sanderson

That strays into RAFO territory, so we'll go ahead and give you a RAFO card. But simply taking it away would not change his Identity to the point that it would prevent-- Good question. Very detailed.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

Questioner

In terms of discussing Identity, I know that in Emperor's Soul, they talk about Identity, and the Parshendi talk about losing their Identity, and then I was just rereading Bands of Mourning, and one of the kandra talks about how the spikes are their Identity. Are all of those things connected somehow or are they different forms of Identity?

Brandon Sanderson

They are connected, although the Parshendi losing their identity is a little more metaphorical. But yeah, the idea of these things-- Identity is an innate attribute in the cosmere that is related to your soul, your spirit, and it is one of the things that Hemalurgy can fiddle with and Feruchemy can fiddle with. It's kind of important to how the [Metallic] Arts play out, but it's important to all the magics...

Identity is involved in why you can't use another person's metalminds, right, that kind of thing. And those are all related. The Parshendi is more metaphorical. 

Questioner

I wondered because it's always capitalized, in the book.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep, and it's done intentionally. Peter always asks, "Are you sure this one is capitalized?" "Yeah."

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

 

 

You guys are right that medallion tech is going to become better than Hemalurgy in the long run, I suppose. 

I merely enjoy thinking about realistic  ways to improve a magic system's use in Sanderson's books, and figure out ways to use it creatively. I'm not trying to say that Hemalurgy is superior to Unsealed Metalminds in all aspects,  I'm just trying to come up with new ways to use Hemalurgy more effectively. 

I was concerned my post would come off that way. I was not intending to stifle your creativity or say you shouldn't consider these things. I was referring to the direction. I tried breaking it down like this:

 

Hemalurgy

Pros

1. Quick and "easy" way to get a power. Find a person with the power you want. Stab them. Stab yourself. Get the power. Don't need the individual's permission, and can grab anyone with the ability you want.

2. Combine various unrelated powers in numerous ways without (mostly) any limitation

Cons

1. target dies (mostly)

2. spirit web gets messed up

3. shards and certain powers can control you

4. power stolen is weaker than original

Unsealed Metal Minds

Pros

1. Metal mind "factory". Can replicate over and over and over

2. Power at same strength, or can be compounded to be stronger

3. Can combine various powers

Cons

1. Requires a very specific type of individual with a very specific suite of abilities to begin the process. Individual has to voluntarily choose to make more. 

 

So in this process we are trying to eliminate the con that the "spirit web gets messed up". We theorized that it has to do with the identity of the power taken. You suggested getting a person who can store their identity to do like they do theoretically with metal minds. The reason why I said you might as well just make a unsealed metal mind then, because you eliminate the Pro of hemalurgy by trying to eliminate a con. This would be the new spread on hemalurgy

 

Hemalurgy

Pros

 

Cons

1. target dies (mostly)

2. shards and certain powers can control you

3. power stolen is weaker than original

4. Requires a very specific type of individual with a very specific suite of abilities to begin the process.

 

You now need someone that can store identity AND has the ability you want. The person then has to voluntarily store their identity before you stab them and kill them. You now have to find ANOTHER individual with the ability to store identity AND has the next ability you want. You then have to get that person to voluntarily store their identity before you stab them and kill them. Rinse and repeat for every single ability. Or as you said, they have to also have the ability for gold, to survive the experience. But if that is required, then you might as well need a person with ALL the abilities, so you can repeatedly stab out all of the abilities while they are storing their identity and healing so they don't die and you can do it again. So the one Con for unsealed metalminds, is now a Con for hemalurgy, negating the one major Pro. 

That is why I suggested looking in a different direction. Don't look for a specific individual, look for a spike or bind point that will solve the issue. Thereby hemalurgy's main pro remains viable. I came up with an example in my head last night that I am going to share. I don't think it is necessary at this point, but I am rather proud of it, and wanted to relate it anyway.

Let us say for instance you don't like having to get up to flip the light switch to turn on all your lights. So you get this wireless remote that you can put anywhere or keep on you, that enables you to push a button and all the lights go on. So you won't have to get up. Problem is, the wireless remote has to always be on to accomplish this, so it drains the battery and dies quickly and from very little use. To solve this issue, you plug the wireless remote into the wall so it is always charging, and thereby won't die. Thing is, the wall socket is by the light switch. So you solved the battery drain, but now you have to get up to turn on the light switch. The very thing you got the wireless remote to prevent. So I would suggest looking into ways to include a longer lasting battery, or reduce the power drain on the remote. That way the charge will last longer, and you can still turn on the lights from the comfort of where ever you want. So I am not saying get rid of the remote. Just direct the means of fixing the problem in a different direction that still utilizes the remote's benefits.

 

edit: Looking at the hemalurgic table, duralumin spike steals identity. Maybe find a way to stab away the identity, and see if stabbing the ability you want shortly after hopefully in time so as the person has not died, but after the identity was removed?

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Technically, if you're careful you don't have to kill the donor of the spike, and they can even regain their natural power if they have a sufficient amount of healing investiture, such as with Feruchemical gold. But there is likely going to be some more or less permanent spiritual scarring that will happen, though we're not entirely sure what it will do, or how serious of a problem it would be.

So here is the thing. The purpose of this thread is to find a way to circumvent one of the main issues with hemalurgy right? Messing up your spirit web, and leaving it open for influence. I theorize that has to do with the identity issue. So then we discussed ways of handling the identity issue, but the way that it could be handled, is pretty much the way it is handled with metalminds, which lack all the other issues hemalurgy have. When developing things, there inevitably reaches a point where trying to fix issues with a thing becomes more costly than the value of the task the thing accomplishes and thereby it is just better to try a different way entirely. Which is my point, sorta. Basically, the task that hemalurgy helps you accomplish is taking a quick and dirty short cut to power with minimal set up. Grab a person, stabbity them, stabbity yourself, you have yourself a power. Once you have to go through alllll the trouble of setting up a person with a whole bunch of powers just to shore up one negative aspect, hemalurgy loses its worth. So I believe what should be sought to make the identity issue no longer an issue, is an alloy or bind point where a power can be stolen without the accompanying identity. I do not know if such exist, but if it did, then I think hemalurgy would still be cost effective and still accomplish your goal of eliminating a negative aspect of it. 

17 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

True, but Hemalurgy is more long term, as you don't need to worry about running out of fuel for your powers; you just pop some more metals in your mouth or fill a metalmind, while Unsealed Metalminds (with the exception of ones that allow for nicrosil compounding) are more temporary enhancements that will cease to be useful once you've drained them.

Wasn't there a way to refill the metalmind with the ability through compounding? Wax said he nearly emptied the bands of mourning, but knew he could refill it and the abilities, just by burning some metals. Also keep in mind, the person you got the blanked identity ability from is dead, and the power you get is weaker. Meanwhile there does not seem to be a depreciation in strength regarding the metal minds. (Yes i know about the law of diminishing returns when you tap more and more, I mean the power itself is weaker with hemalurgy)

5 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I would hate to see medallion tech completely erase hemalurgy and frankly when evil people have a chance to get even a slight edge over the rest of the population they will still take it.  

I agree, I don't see hemalurgy ever going away, but if the goal was to try and minimize the negative effects, I figure unsealed metalminds are just the better option in the end. 

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean yeah, she can probably sustain it. I assume Szeth could keep something going for a bit if he freaking tried why do none of the Skybreakers ever touch it but using it responsibly and most effectively is probably a lot more difficult. After all, it's a pretty dangerous power, you don't want to burn everyone around you.

Yep. Which is why although I understand why Brandon wants to slowly introduce us to the magics, I still get frustrated and want to see them already! lol. I have too many questions.

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I bet Jasnah would be extremely annoyed if Ivory didn't let her use it for several Ideals and seven years, and Venli got it in like one xD

Weeeelllllll just to be a little contrary, Jasnah did respect Ivory's wishes to keep the problem with radiancy a secret even though she disagreed. She also felt bad for limiting Shallan's practice with soulcasting, and apologized. So I could see her understanding that that was just the way it had to go. But I agree it would be funny. 

17 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Yeah, that's what I was thinking; something that has come to replace a part of your body and helps it function properly.

I vaguely recall a WoB where a metallic implant was asked in that regard. I tried a quick search and couldn't find it, so I will try more later in the week, but I believe Brandon said it would take some time but would work. Then again I could be remembering incorrectly.

Also keep in mind "legality" in Alethkar has to do a lot with military clout. The one with the army behind them makes the rules. Sadeas's princedom is in disgrace, and now Ialai is dead too. Jasnah can, and if I recall correctly, was considering after Ialai's death, of replacing her with a new highprince. Their nephew (or was it cousin?) could be a problem later when he gets older, but for now, Sadeas and Co got no ability to push back on it. 

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Training with Transportation is truly dangerous. If you train and fail with Adhesion, well, you may drop a chair or a pebble. Gravitation, unless you do something stupid, you fall down, whereever down may be, which won't harm somebody holding Stormlight. Even with Division, if you burn off your hand, it will hurt, but you are a Knight Radiant, enough Stormlight right away will fix it.

Transportation, though, if you do it wrong, you get stuck in Shadesmar and drown in beads.

True dalinar did stick a chair to a wall, but adhesion with Dalinar certainly works differently than Kaladins when using it on people and can be argued to have a much worse effect if done incorrectly. If kaladin in his early oaths when he couldn’t hold a lot of storm light soared into the air not realizing how much each lashing takes, and then ran out….. Taravangian said that Malata could make the flames persist. Could burn everyone around you, or do a giant explosion with flames out of control. For all we know the flames could act like when in the cognitive realm soulcasting. As in, continually growing and draining storm light unless it is controlled. Transformation has the same problems as transportation and jasnah still learned it first while shallan was warned and told to stick to illusions. So Venli should have learned transportation by timbre bringing her into the cognitive. It didn’t because for narrative reasons it would either reveal her or was too much of a get out of jail free card. So many issues she ran into would have been easily solved. So Brandon used the pursuer to show it. Just the problem is using the fused to demonstrate it is still different than the way a radiant would do it. Still leaving many questions for me.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

You mean convert the Identity of the donor's spike to the Identity of the recipient? Perhaps, in an ideal setting where you had a willing donor and access to the resources needed to create Unsealed Metalminds, you could have the donor blank their Identity while simultaneously tapping the Identity of the recipient via Unsealed Metalminds. Perhaps then the spike made from the donor would have enough of the Identity of the recipient to make it more stable?

Was thinking about that, but if you have the ability to wipe the identity, then might as well just make a unsealed metal mind. More efficient, less damaging, and you can make multiples. 

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

What if he perceived it as a part of his body? Like, if someone who had metallic implants gained access to this power, would the implants travel with them, perhaps? Or maybe if Miles Hundred-Lives gained access to this power, would his goldminds stuck in his body travel with him? They don't seem to be rejected by his healing, so maybe he just views them as part of his being?

Can’t remember how the WoB was exactly phrased but there are limits to “convincing” yourself of something. I think the question involved using storm light to grow a third arm. I think hemalurgic spikes would work because of it being attached to your spirit web and how the body warps to include them in places that should kill you. But a mundane piercing, regardless if it’s a metal mind or not I think is a stretch to convince yourself that it is part of you. 
 

edit: correction, if you mean implant like a hip replacement, maybe I could see that

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Ah nice, I couldn't remember if she used her Blade or if it was only after the Windrunner Honorblade was stolen.

No problemo

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

To be fair, all she did was burn a table. I assume that Nale's training would probably be about bigger, and more dangerous, uses.

Taravangian does comment to himself that she willed the flames out while she did it, but she could have sustained them if she wanted to. Now it could be he knew that because of research, rather than ability on her part, but I take that scene to mean she has greater proficiency with it than is immediately seen. But I totally acknowledge it is up in the air

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Yeah, could definitely be. I don't remember if we see the spren when it's in use by someone or not, I'll have to keep an eye out.

I will too. To the best of my recollection, we only see the spren after Kaladin and co first transfer to the cognitive by accident, and then when they refuse to let them transfer over in Thaylenah. Dalinar opening the perp is what got them across, not the oathgate, so I don't think we have seen it on screen.  

5 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Definitely would also make sense. Could be both, too, lol.

Very true. Which is all the more reason why I was hoping to see Venli use it! (or at least to the full extent I mean) But it was not to be lol.

1 hour ago, AquaRegia said:

Well, obviously not a LAW (Sazed and Alendi as counterexamples); just that "three weird syllables" is a very common pattern.  As soon as I saw the name "Axindweth" I thought "must be Terris".

So I hope you don't take this as nitpicking or correcting you. Just meant as informational purposes. Alendi wasn't terris. That was why Rashek was so angry at him. That he was being told and expected to be ok with the hero of ages in the terris prophesies not even being a member of the terris himself. But having said that, Rashek does totally count as a counterexample. 

I think the main issue is the identity of the spiritweb being stapled. Its like having a hunk of green play doh. You then take a small chunk of orange play doh, and push it into the green. You still see the chunk of orange in the large hunk of green. Kneading the play doh is basically what the spirit web is trying to do. Make it all one color. But it takes a lot to mix the orange chunk into the green hunk, and the color you get afterwards is still different than what it started as. So I guess you would need to find a way to change the orange chunk to green?