Pathfinder

18 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Sorry, you misunderstood me. The target of the deception there is Waxillium, not Lessie/paalm/Bleeder.

He did not tell Waxillium that his wife is alive, a Kandra and his oponent. I am sorry, but that is about as bad a deception as you can make. Anything Kelsier ever did in that regard pales to inobservability besides that.

 

So let's first establish the justification in each scenario

1. Harmony couldn't tell Wax who Bleeder was because Wax would be unable to take the action he needed to, to stop Bleeder. Harmony also knew Wax would agree in hindsight that the action needed to be done and that Lessie would have wanted him to stop her. Harmony knew Wax could handle the experience and would come out the other side ok. Finally Harmony gave Wax the option to move on. He didn't give him a false choice.

So in summation we know Harmony had to keep the info from Wax.

2. Kelsier had to force Vins hand so she would not give up the power and release Ruin. He could not interact with her or communicate with her. Preservation could, but he could not speak to her and Ruin set it up to make her distrust Preservation at that point. So Kelsier capitalized on her distrust of Preservation and her feelings for Elend by killing Elend. Ultimately it did not work but the reasoning was sound and had a purpose. 

So in summation Kelsier had to kill Elend to make Vin make the choice he needed her to make.

So I guess my question to you is, do you truly feel that withholding information for the greater good is worse than killing someone's loved one right in front of them for the greater good?

If so, then I respect your view but honestly and fundamentally I disagree with you. 

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

And a being of divine power told him to be less manipulative. Has he heeded the call and kept his promise?
Again: yes. Look at his agent. Mraize is arguably a murder, a blackmailer, a kidnapper and many other things. But he does not lie to you about certain things.

How do you know that Mraize being truthful is sourced at Kelsier?

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Harmony used Lessie. Kelsier wouldn't. Harmony would not have you knifed in a dark alley. Kelsier would. That is the key difference.

How do you know that is the case? Harmony said he asked Lessie. He did not demand it of her. Further he said Lessie acted differently when she passed, when no longer under the influence of the trelliam spike. So it could be said trell used her.

Now it could be said harmony has lied about all of that, but I don't see much evidence supporting that possibility personally.

So i guess i am curious how you know that. And finally how you know kelsier wouldn't when he has used and manipulated his crew members. It was ultimately for a reason in each case, but it doesn't change that he did in fact do so.

44 minutes ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

speaking of which, I think you can steal people's age w/ Hemalurgy. not sure if it would add it on to yours or replace yours, though.

Lol. I even saw one where a person was trying to steal and transfer identity via spikes to "body jump" as a way to become effectively immortal. 

16 hours ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

Okay, I was just clarifying the stuff I remembered, it's been like 6 months since I read it, and didn't know anything about the WOB. I completely agree that Hemalurgy is evil, that is part of its essence and danger, especially if it gets to the rest of the cosmere

Sorry, I don't mean to sound attacking. I was just explaining the reasoning. Actually I suggest you do a search and read the WoB for the simple fact it's kind of funny. You have questioners coming up with all these elaborate uses for hemalurgy and you can really read Brandon's uncomfortableness about it. Like once someone asked about doing something with spikes and Brandon was like "it would be very bad". The person replied "but would it be possible". And Brandon went something to the effect of "ummm yeeeeaaaahhh but you know there is the whole horribleness to it and all......"

12 hours ago, DiePie said:

do (northern) Scadrians even believe in an immortal soul?

I know we don't really know much about Scadrian theology (I blame the fact that the series focuses on the type of people who don't tend to be religious), but out of the major post-catecendre religions we know of (Pathian, Survivorism, and Sliverism are the ones that come to mind), none seem to focus much on the afterlife. Which, now that I think about it, is a weird thing to leave out.

I know it isn't particularly relevant to this debate, except to add that Kelsier probably doesn't believe in the afterlife, considering the way he reacted after dying.

Northern scadrialians definitely believe in an immortal soul as of the original trilogy and the latest trilogy. Just read Kelsier's perspective and Wax's perspective when they die. They may not personally believe it, but they certainly entered it with general notions.

11 hours ago, elsoberanok said:

First sorry  for my english

No problem at all. Just to be clear because of language nuances, I hope you take my responses as open and genuine as intended. I hope it does not come off as harsh.

11 hours ago, elsoberanok said:

For my, kelsier is judged with double standards, first kelsier in many times did selfless things, he saved vin and he gives her freedom, he was willing to die in battle with his people.

So as my intention was not to say Kelsier is purely selfish, I assume this is in response to other posts so shall not respond. 

11 hours ago, elsoberanok said:

1. A lot of people says he did a religion around him but when he died he did that only for love, he He did not know that there was a way to survive and his sacrifice was sincere it doesnt matters if the people adores him becouse he was dead.

I think it's a bit conflating to say he did it only for love. He has a heart to heart with himself during Secret History where he admits to himself it was equally about the revenge. He then defended himself that both revenge and saving people as goals can align. 

11 hours ago, elsoberanok said:

2.people say that he is a manipulator but who is not a manipulator?? In the same mistborn brisa is the king of manipulation

So first there is a difference between manipulating someone to get you wine, and killing someone to make someone take the action you want. 

1. Kelsier abandons the villagers. They can either join the rebellion, or if they stay, they will be executed as an example. This can be justified as kelsier stopping the rape and murder of an innocent girl, and freeing a village from a tyrannical leader. But Kelsier still forced people into a situation they didn't ask for, and to make a decision they don't really have a choice in. It is basically do what I want you to do or die. 

2. Bilg and Demoux. I already explained how this was justified but the short of it is can't risk the rebellion falling apart. The means to do it is setting up an innocent man to die at the hands of another innocent man. The only reason Bilg was alive after that was because Demoux actively fought against Kelsier's allomantic push.

3. As I said already Preservation, Vin, and Elend. Justified for trying to save the world. Manipulated Vin by killing the love of her life Elend. Manipulated Preservation because only Preservation could interact with them, so forced Preservation to kill, something Preservation is very much against doing.

4. Manipulated Spook into using hemalurgy. We have Spook's notes where he is uncertain and trying to rationalize its use. Spook had real concerns and was worried.

I could go on but for the sake of brevity, in those examples a whole lot of people could have, or in fact did, die. For the purpose of accomplishing a goal. 

So my point is, from Bilg's perspective, if he knew what kelsier really did, could he see kelsier as a villian? Could the villagers? And if so, then couldn't we say that kelsier could take an action in the future that would be received like a villain? The action could be perfectly justified to kelsier, but the person it was done to feel differently?

Further we see Hoid say he would let Roshar burn if it meant protecting the rest of the cosmere from Rayse. Is that really different than what we have seen Kelsier do?

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The spiritweb hangs around in the Spiritual Realm even after aspect separation, so if there is a true soul and afterlife (setting aside the question of if there is and assuming it because the line I was initially quoting was about that hypothetical) I don't think the spiritweb would be what goes there, because it's still here instead.

So in that case, the reason why I mentioned your religious beliefs, is as a hypothetical. As in hypothetically if you lived on Scadrial, were religious, and were told hemalurgy rips off a part of your soul, then I do not think you would take the idea of a chunk of that getting ripped off lightly. I would imagine quite a few people would be concerned regarding the well being of their "immortal soul". 

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Wouldn't really describe them as "the defenseless", they're literally the military (or security forces, etc).

The soldiers were an example of:

1. Skaa not being exempt from Kelsier killing and using them

2. The typical response of "well for all you know, that guard was a good man, forced into a situation to keep little Timmy and Janey with food and off the street". Hence the comparison to Ham (and Clubs too) who was a soldier (and friends with quite a few of those men), and who had a family in hiding for that reason. So the idea it was ok to kill the guards because they worked for the system, although is rational and justified from Kelsier's point of view, still shows Kelsier is able to rationalize killing people regardless their social standing/cultural connection. 

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Eh, what he did was dangerous, but I wouldn't say he's not on their side, just reckless and impulsive and that this can endanger people.

So an example of philosophical discourse.

If I change the path of a river, knowing it will flood a city and possibly kill the inhabitants, but do it anyway, do I bear responsibility for the potential fall out of that action? Further, let us say I warn the city that they will be flooded because of the action I took, does that absolve me of that responsibility? Finally, do I have a right to step in, and alter the course of people's lives, requiring them to either ascribe to what I think is best for them, or they die?

For better or worst, altruistic or nefarious, these were Kelsier's actions, and those were the results. In hindsight we can say "Yay! They survived after all and it all worked out!". But that would be saying the ends justified the means yes? My point is not to convince, nor to paint Kelsier in a negative light. Just to realize the implications of such actions. 

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Which of his actions in SH were him not trying to fight for those who needed it? (Setting aside the question of his methods, just talking about his goals, aka his "side".)

There are plenty of times where he manipulated individuals to his own gain. Preservation is the top of the list. There are also plenty of times he admits to himself he is doing it for the pride, the revenge. That does not negate what he has done for the people, nor say that is all he thinks. Just his ego definitely comes into play. 

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Didn't he save them all from dying out?

There is a whole lot of assuming regarding Kelsier and the Southerners that I imagine will be answered in the Lost Metal. This is another discussion that has been had in the past, so I don't want this to digress, but there are quite a few things that Kelsier has done regarding the Southerners that can be called into question. Again, to stress, I am not saying this to negate the help he gave the Southerners. Just the actions he takes to get there can offer commentary on what he is willing to, and has done. 

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(Now, to be clear, I agree his recklessness and ruthlessness can endanger those he is trying to help, sometimes greatly, I'm solely contesting the point that any of these were the result of him joining on the side of anyone besides the people who needed aid.)

My point was just because you needed aid, does not mean Kelsier will help you, or treat you any differently. He did help people that needed aid, but it doesn't make him the patron saint of those that need aid lol. Its the whole "all cats are mammals, but not all mammals are cats" concept. And Kelsier has acted in ways to further a goal he thought was necessary to the detriment of those who needed aid. Basically it is not a rule but an occasional feature. That help?

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Ah, I misunderstood you then. No argument here. Fwiw, I took Oltux's comment as contesting the argument that Kelsier's actions are fundamentally all selfish while others have more selfless ones (not saying you were making this argument, just that I've seen it before and the way I read Oltux's comment it seemed like that was how they took it), but obviously I can't speak for them on what their intentions actually were.

Yeah, to be clear my points are not to negate the benefit that Kelsier's actions had. And as I said even his more extreme actions, in their context can be justified. But as I said something being justified is different than saying it is good or bad. Someone can kill an opponent, and then kill that opponent's entire family down to the children. It could be justified under the pretense of not leaving loose ends that can come to haunt you later. But I am sure many people would say killing children is abhorrent. That is why I am trying to speak on it without such connotations. For myself at least, I am not commenting in such extremes. Kelsier can be egotistical and narcissistic to believe he knows what is best, and take actions that he feels is justified, while still lamenting the pain that is caused to someone he cares about. The issue I have, is he is still willing to do it, and further, has done it on multiple occasions. So I am more focused on the actions Kelsier is willing to and has taken. 

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On the general topic, not a response to any one point or person: Yes, Kelsier is reckless, and yes, he's often ruthless. But I feel like it's hard to argue that he doesn't care nonetheless. When the army exposes himself, he runs sixteen hours straight with pewter, even expecting that the other garrison would probably already be there and finishing them off, for the slight chance he could help. And when he arrives, and can see that yep, the Valtroux Garrison has them horribly outnumbered and they're about to wipe them out, he still tries to join the fight because he hates the idea of abandoning them, even when his chances are hopeless and he would ruin any salvageable parts of his plan by doing so.

He also forces himself to watch the executions, and bluntly tells the crew that while what they are doing is the right thing, they need to acknowledge the consequences and do what they can. And in the end, he charges in to free them, trying to save any lives he can, and stays to fight the Inquisitor expecting to die and lose everything else, even before he knows the Lord Ruler will be there and he'll be able to make his mark.

None of this is a man who does not actually care about the people he's fighting for, nor a man whose only goal is revenge or glory.

As that was never my point, I assume you are not referring to me, so I will not respond

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Tbh I genuinely cannot think of one thing (in TFE specifically, not talking about other books) besides what happened with Bilg (which is a HUGE asterisk on that statement because yikes that was messed up) that felt much worse than light grey to me, but it's been a while since I read it.

So I would go into detail and present them the way I did the two at the end, but that would take a bit, so please do not take this list as painting Kelsier in an evil light, just writing it that way for brevity.

1. Abandoning the village while fully knowing the inquisitors would catch up and kill them (he muses this to himself)(that portion is only in the first book, but if we include the other three, then he also admits that he completely forgot them, and is completely surprised that they survived)

2. (Not to start a debate as this has been gone back and forth over before) Killing Skaa guards just doing their job. Just a slightly different sequence of events or time frame would have seen Ham in that place. 

Those are just off the top of my head. I am pretty sure there are more but I would have to reference the book. 

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Wdym?

So the two examples at the end were what I was referring to. So manipulating Vin, Preservation and Elend. But he has also manipulated Vin, Dockson, Ham, Breeze, Marsh and most of all Spook. Again we can comment on how the results were ultimately beneficial, or necessary in the moment, but I feel it should be confronted that he did in fact manipulate them. They were not exempt from his machinations just because they were "friends". 

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Such as?

Bilg was one example. Skaa guards another. The villagers for another. And that is purely contained to the first book. That is not counting his actions in secret history, nor the actions he took with the southern scadrians. My point is you are not "safe" depending on your societal standing, your relationship to Kelsier, or moral integrity. He has taken actions to hurt, or kill innocents, poor/rich, and loved ones in equal measure. That is also assuming you know for a fact that he considers you to fall within one of those categories. Yeden for instance ended up feeling like he was part of the crew and close to Kelsier. When in reality he was more a means to an end. All the other crew mates commented as such. 

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Agreed, I think his actions are generally laudable but they're certainly pretty utilitarian still.

See I don't see it in terms of laudable or blamable. I think in certain situations I could see it as justified, or reasonable. But I think if we are going to look at his actions as "good" or "bad" there are going to be a lot of issues. He kills people rather cavalierly. Some would consider murder evil full stop unless in self defense. Kelsier has shown he has no compunction of just killing someone if it accomplishes a goal. So by that standing Kelsier would be evil. Some would consider manipulating people who trust you as evil. Kelsier has shown he has no compunction about manipulating people in and outside of his crew. So by that standing Kelsier would be evil. But by presenting it in that light, it removes the context. Could Kelsier have made better choices? Sure! But he made the choices he did, as the person he did. And I think that offers commentary on how he handles issues. But I do not think that reflects on him as being "good" or "evil"

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Sure, but in this case the cause was overthrowing an oppressive empire that had been slaving, genociding, and murdering for a thousand years straight and was ruled by an immortal despot.

Like I said, it can be rationalized to be useful or for a good cause, but that is not how (in my opinion) Oltux presented it. The way I read it, was Oltux was saying that Kelsier because he was willing to die for his people, is a better person than Hoid. I don't think we can determine that based on that information. Also remember in the beginning everyone assumed Kelsier was doing that for an angle. For all we know he wanted revenge on the Lord Ruler, and was willing to die to accomplish it. I am not saying that is the case, just that understanding is also perfectly viable. So the assumption of dying for a cause denotes the integrity of the individual dying, I disagree with. Further, if it wasn't for Elend, his sacrifice would have resulted in a society in upheaval with people of all social strata dying. So although his death could be said to be with the noble goal of ending a horrible system, it does not necessarily mean the individual dying is noble themselves, nor speak to the rationale for doing it. 

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Definitely. Kelsier did hold the power of a Shard, so he may know a better way to do it, and due to that particular circumstance I'm willing to hold off on judgement until we actually know how it went down, but it's not a great sign and generally practice of it is pretty crap. (If he discovered how to make medallions prior to it, it's also possible the person was fully healed with Feruchemy, but there are multiple large ifs in that statement.)

I fully acknowledge that there could be a "nice" way to conduct hemalurgy, but I will counter that if the knowledge of the shard is all that it would take to know, then why hasn't Harmony instituted it? He has both shards, so he would definitely have to know. We have confirmation that he doesn't like the way hemalurgy works enough that a species that works for him directly, cannot propagate due to its reliance on hemalurgy. He has actively tried to prevent the spread of hemalurgic knowledge due to its danger. He has also provided hints and info to help the development of Scadrial. So I think it is pretty conclusive that if holding a shard gave you the knowledge to do hemalurgy safely, then Harmony would know it. And if he knew of a way to do hemalurgy safely, then Scadrial would know of it. 

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Depends on how you view it. Personally, if there's a Beyond and "true soul", I doubt it can be affected by anything in the Three Realms, but that's something we'll never know an answer to.

Well I don't know your personal religious leanings, but my assumption is if you believe in a soul and an afterlife, and you find out that hemalurgy rips off a piece of your "soul" to give someone power. And further you cannot confirm or find out in that afterlife whether or not it affects you, would you risk your everlasting soul and eternity for that?

Conversely if you are not religious, and there is no beyond, having confirmation that it messes you up prior to full "transition" at death, at least for myself, would give pause. 

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Agreed. The Bilg thing is the one major thing where I think Kelsier was genuinely doing something terrible, even if he has justifications in his head.

And denoting it as something terrible is a personal moral judgement. I respect you see it that way. My goal was to say, Kelsier is willing to do this thing. However it may be justified in the moment, it was a decision he was willing to make and did in fact take. So that should be considered and seen for what it is when discussing the character and future choices. 

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That's fair. To me the scene reads less as being fine with the decision and more as knowing he needed to act quickly and drastically to stop Ruin's escape even if he dislikes the option, but it's certainly not a nice thing to do to someone by any means.

And I respect that that is your reading of it. Again (not meaning to beat a dead horse, but respectfully respond to each point in turn), I feel it can be said Kelsier's action in that moment was justified, but that does not change what was done to accomplish that goal. He is willing, able, and has taken such actions. So as to whether he could be a villain in the future? Based on his actions so far, I could see him taking actions in the future that would be seen as evil/villainous by others. But he would feel he was perfectly justified in those actions, and the line he "wouldn't cross" is a distant one. 

11 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

So while he certainly can be rather egotistical and think he knows best sometimes, he is willing to set aside his own goals in the face of something greater anyway, he's not focused only on his personal desires.

Being egotistical does not mean one only makes decisions solely based on ones own personal desires. It can be realizing something benefits not only ones self, but others over all. Now it could be said that too is ultimately self serving as it preserves the self on top of serving the narcissistic feeling of being the savior, but that is not the point I am trying to make. A person can be supremely egotistical, but still realize when something needs to be done that is harmful to themselves. People aren't robots that will always react with the same output if given the same input regardless the situation. Situation and circumstance does come into play. 

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Another thing probably relevant to the convo:

There are quite a few problematic actions Kelsier took in TFE. Which is why I believe Brandon stated the caveat, that if you are ok with that, then you would be fine with the other actions. 

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As well as

Welllllll, he does say not too much backstabbing lol. Also I would point out to the actions he has taken regarding his own crew mates that he loves so much, with manipulation being the least of them. 

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So while the Ghostbloods are often.... not the greatest... it seems like Kell himself is probably better than the Rosharan branch would make it appear, though of course presumably still flawed in many ways. Thing is, while Kell's a great broad picture guy and figurehead, and awesome at running a small tight-knit group, running an interplanetary crime organization kind of needs more structure than his usual "just pick someone you know and have faith in them and give them as much room as they need" strategy (which, to be clear, does not absolve him of all blame, but "is responsible because he didn't vet well and didn't keep an eye on things like he REALLY should have" is very different morally from "is responsible because he approves of these types of actions and thinks it is good to be that way", imo).

So this is a discussion that was had on another thread that kind of devolved, so I think it is best just to leave this portion as agree to disagree.

10 hours ago, elsoberanok said:

kelsier is not a nationalist, he will always be on the side of the defenseless,he is not interesting in destroy otero World, meaby otero gods tes

You are certainly entitled to believe as such, and I respect your opinion, but I believe it is conflating the character to say he is always on the side of the defenseless. We have seen numerous examples where he most certainly is not. Now the goals those actions were for could be defended, but Kelsier is very willing to kill, maim, or destroy regardless of background or individual. 

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Thaidakar himself would likely say something that could be paraphrased as: He chose to play the game. If you do that, you go all in.

And that is perfectly fine for the character. When I present Kelsier's actions as they are, that is all I feel I am doing. Presenting them as they are. They have perfectly logical reasoning behind them, and can be seen as necessary depending on the circumstance, but it still does not change what he in fact did.

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If you donate part of your income to the protection of rainforests, you are a laudable human being.
If you donate the trust fund you hold for a minor child to that cause, you are a criminal.
OK, that turns the conundrum up to 11, but it is basically what Honor and Cultivation did. It was noble, but in a certain sense disloyal.

The difference in the example you provide is in regards to ownership which really I do not see how it is applicable. It is the child's trust fund. By the statement of being criminal, then the assumption is you never had the legal right to use it in that matter. Now maybe if you asked the kid if they were ok with you donating it to the cause, and advise them how it would be beneficial, then oh look, you and the child are laudable. 

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And it is what Harmony would do. For the same reason it is what Thaidakar would not do. Precisely because it is the ultilitarian thing to do.

Yeah I still really disagree with you on Kelsier not being utilitarian like from the other thread. Not only has Brandon himself said as much, but Kelsier has had no problem at all killing:

1. poor people/Skaa

2. fearful people

3. loved ones

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Yet he died for his people, while Hoid (to some extent) and Harmony (fully) trick others into doing the dirty work.

So I do not recall saying I felt Hoid was any better or worst than Kelsier. But I will point out this, dying for a cause or belief does not automatically make that sacrifice noble, nor the cause/reason for it good. There are many examples across history of people dying for a belief where:

1. the belief itself was wrong/damaging/negative

2. the process of dying resulted in damage/pain/death of innocents and created more harm than good to all

3. the dying for the cause was actually for a selfish reason, not altruistic at all

So saying a person died for their people, does not automatically mean the person was good, nor that the intention and process was good. 

4 hours ago, EmulatonStromenkiin said:

This could be further developed into the morals of Hemalurgy, though I have to say that the set made it sound like they discovered a way to make a hemalurgic spike without killing someone in Bands of Mourning. Also, remember Spooks book on Hemalurgy, if we can determine when in his life after the remaking he wrote it, we can determine somewhat what experiments he did.

So this has come up a lot but, just because the person isn't dead, does not mean they are fine. First off Suit himself comments on how the individual they did that to was all screwed up after, but we also have multiple WoB saying the people it is taken from and given to are horrendously screwed up. Brandon has even called hemalurgy evil on three separate occasions. So I am of the belief a whole lot of fundamental understanding on the process has to change before it comes anywhere near ethical. And that is going on the premise that there is not a soul nor a Beyond. If going on the premise that such things did exist, it becomes even more problematic. 

Now after replying to everyone, I put this as an aside to hopefully clarify my points earlier in this post. I am not saying Kelsier is evil. I am also not saying that in certain situations his actions are not justified. Quite a few of them I agree with him. However, I do believe he does need to be called out for his actions. As in they should be presented as they are. Not sugar coated. Kelsier has:

1. Tried to kill a skaa who was just concerned about marching to his death. A concern Ham and Kelsier admitted was perfectly natural and understandable. Further the individual was not a spy, nor the worst "offender". Those were already jailed. Finally, the skaa had not acted on it till Kelsier flared his anger to push him to. The only reason the skaa survived the encounter was because Demoux refused and had to actively fight against Kelsier. Now I believe it was justified because Kelsier couldn't afford a rebellion in his own rebellion. He also couldn't afford letting information leak out and destroy the rebellion before it began. But just as much as Kelsier rioted the skaa, he could have soothed and been inspirational instead. But he didn't. He manipulated the situation to force the innocent skaa who was only scared that his life would be wasted, into a corner and intended to kill him to prove a point. If because Kelsier happened to think to himself "sorry buddy, but it has to be you, and it certainly can't be me", is Kelsier feeling guilty and means its ok, then that is certainly anyone else's prerogative. But for myself, though it does not make him evil, it certainly makes him cutthroat. 

2. used someone against their will to kill the loved one in front of someone he cares about. He grabbed Preservation's arm, and stabbed Elend right in front of Vin. He knows Preservation wouldn't do it himself. He knows Vin loves Elend and it would destroy her. He does that for that reason. Because in his own words he assumes she would be selfish like him, and go to heal Elend. Now again, makes sense in the moment. The bigger picture has Ruin trying to get free. He assumes Vin will just heal Elend. He even does the "sorry kid but I gotta" thought. But he still not only voluntarily, but purposefully manipulated not only Preservation but Vin as well. He knew she loved Elend, and used it against her to try and make her act differently. I love my wife dearly. Personally I would not feel comfortable following someone that would be so willing to sacrifice her against my wishes to accomplish a goal, regardless how altruistic the goal may be. And can the goal really be said to be altruistic for Kelsier, when in that moment he was not the one sacrificing anything? He was literally forcing Vin to take what he believed to be the right action. And let us not forget the total mental toll it takes to watch someone you love bleed out and die in front of you. But Kelsier was not only willing to do so, but he actively acted against multiple actors to accomplish that. 

Those are just two off the top of my head. So again, I am not saying Kelsier is evil. Just he has very very big faults that lead him to take actions that have very high costs. 

I don't believe Kelsier is a villain. If he ends up being one, i believe its more due to his more problematic aspects (ego, narcissism, manipulative, and rationalizing to excuse his decision making). But that does not mean I think he is a bad guy. Just I think his actions and the fall out of those actions should be considered when discussing the kind of person he is. That and personally I would not want to follow the guy based on his track record. 

We also have WoB that that multiple people that really know him, don't approve of what he is doing and if Demoux really knew Kelsier, he would not idolize or get along with him.

So just saying, Kelsier does have a lot of faults. Doesn't make him evil persay, but those faults are considerable.

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Sure and you can clearly find examples of economies based on slaves failing. Prime examples would be the late Roman Empire and indeed the antebellum South of the USA. So we know that there is a potential for having too many slaves or unrestricted slavery leading to failure. But are we picking cherries? Egypt in the age of the pyramids, Sumer, Babylon, the city states of the Late Bronze Age, Mykene, the Hittite empire, classical era Greece, the Caliphate during the golden Era of Islam, all were slaveholders and arguably pinnacles of human civilization during their place and time.

But I feel like in your examples, you are picking cherries. As in you are taking a snap shot moment to determine whether it was effective in that society. So for instance depending on the time you choose, it could be said Roman's having slaves were successful. Or the south. Because at that time, that structure fit the need and made that society at that moment economically viable. 

When studying cultures and the effectiveness of certain practices, a wider array of traits and characteristics are taken into account over a long period of time. You could have a society that is "rich" and "prosperous" but the practice that got them there be a failure because it is not sustainable. Or it is self destructive. The circus in Rome could be seen as a wonderful and successful tool. The masses were given food, while they got to enjoy bloody games. People absolutely adored the rulers that gave them the games. But it doesn't change the practice was really only to distract the masses from the deeply problematic structures in place. All the circus really accomplished was dodge the issue till is violently imploded. 

So it could be said that slavery got various cultures to places of prosperity faster or more efficiently, but when you study the breath and width of a society, you can see all its levels. And the rot is very clear and easy to see.

Jasnah is a student and scholar of history and we know for a fact such various societies existed and exist in the novels. So coming to those conclusions makes sense and employing them would be beneficial.

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid there are people who to Thaidakar for reasons of class cannot be true, lasting allies.

So you are saying Thaidakar does not consider

To be an ally?

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No, for you would have no control group. You could always argue that other factors, for example the Vorin rule of keeping half your population illiterate, are the crucial difference.

Could you elaborate regarding what you are getting at? I do not recall across human history there being a scientific test group regarding slavery and its success or failure. Cultures and societies were examined in light of their economic structures, and the pros and cons were weighed. It is shown to be ineffective and downright damaging. 

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Thaidakar will do such things to an enemy or a neutral party. He will not do it to a friend. Good and bad are not important categories to him. Friend and foe are.

Um I am pretty sure 

was an ally, and Thaidakar stabbed him in front of

using 

who was also very much an ally, against his will. 

literally said no, and Thadakar did it anyway, much to

horror.

See this is why I contemplated not replying at all.

21 hours ago, Nameless said:

You compared Jasnah fighting the regrowth fused to a captain getting hit by an arrow at random. You seemed to be saying that if Jasnah used her powers, the regrowth fused that she fought would never be able to win.

Ok please tell me where I wrote the fused was never going to be able to win? I really would like to know where I typed that.

I would state again what I did actually say, but it really feels pointless at this point. 

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Now, that might not have been your intention. Rereading that part of your earlier post, you might have been saying that in the specific  matchup between Jasnah and the fused that played out the way it did, with Jasnah's surprise attack, the fused had no chance.

Again, please tell me where I wrote "the fused had no chance", because at this point I really am at a loss.

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Which I am obviously not going to dispute. All I am arguing is that if the fused was prepared for the possibility of Jasnah catching everything on fire or soulcasting, he would have put up a better fight. He would not have won. But he would have put up a better fight.

When did I ever say the fused could not put up a fight?

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Yes, Jasnah feels that it is unfair that she has powers that normal soldiers don't. When did I say that she didn't feel it unfair?

Totally missing the point and context of the conversation Jasnah and Wit had. 

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The fused do have living bodies. However, radiants can go for extended periods of time without breathing, and I don't see any reason that the fused, who are normally far more efficient in investiture usage than radiants, would be any more bothered by being unable to breath than Jasnah would be. Regrowth fused are either able to heal forever or able to heal so efficiently that draining them of voidlight is simply not an option or would take a very long battle, given that we have never seen one of them killed in any way other than a stab to the gemheart.

The regrowth fused uses the surge of growth to grow hulking armor and weapons as durable as shardplate. The heavenly ones have unlimited gravitation on themselves. The Deep Ones can glide themselves through stone, but not draw others through it. The transportation can only teleport a total of 4 times and cannot take anything with him. He stops at 3, so the 4th can get him out to get more voidlight. The masked ones can only place illusions on themselves, and it is limited to humanoid forms. Raboniel only soulcasted the weapon when it touched her, and soulcasted the air she exhaled from her lungs. 

Now lets compare that to radiants. Lift knew how to use the surge of regrowth to make plants, but didn't know how to use healing till later. Kaladin and Szeth could use gravitation but had to learn how to handle using multiple lashes in sudden different directions. (BTW you can only lash in a direction, not at a specific target meaning it cannot move with the moving target. WoB on that). Venli learns how to completely alter stone. Oathgates allow for complete transition of body and all materials. Shallan learns to creat illusions of all kinds of shapes and forms and can attach it to anyone. Jasnah can soulcast at range. 

When it comes to the fused, passive use of their abilities comes at little to no cost. Flying, growing armor and weapons, self illusions, short teleports, and etc. When it is used more actively it costs far more. They have to expend voidlight to heal, and heal far slower than radiants. It is why they tend not to heal during battle. Kaladin comments on this while fighting Leshwi. Heavenly ones lashing an enemy costs them a lot of voidlight, which is why they rarely do it. The regrowth fused have never healed anyone or themselves. The only grow armor and weapons. Unless you can show me where in the book they constantly healed themselves? If you can, I would appreciate it. 

I put this separate because otherwise I fear it will be missed and I will be accused of saying fused are easily defeated again. I am not saying that. I am literally just commenting on the function and how powers interact.

If person A had was a martial artist, and person B had a pistol, and both were a moderate distance away, person B could say it is unfair that they have a gun because they can just shoot person A. If person A was actually up closer to person B so that they could use their martial arts, the situation would be different wouldn't it?

Does that mean one or the other is less capable? Of course not.

But it doesn't change that shooting a gun at range at the martial artist makes all that training not matter one bit. It is not fair to judge the martial artist's skill based on getting shot with a gun. It is not fair to consider the person who shot the martial artist as the "winner". But it does not matter if it is fair. It is war. If you got a gun, you use the gun. Which is what was Wit's point. 

To be clear again, I am not saying anyone wins or loses. I am not judging anyone's skill. I am not saying anyone is weak or strong. 

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I am literally just going on what is in the book. I am tired of being misquoted and misrepresented. I am not arguing with you. I am agreeing with you, or at least I think I am.

Do you agree that Jasnah would win 9/10 times against the regrowth fused, if both used their powers and neither had the advantage of surprise?

Do you agree that since the Pursuer has never been killed twice by the same person in 7,000 years, there must be a reason for that?

Do you agree that the most likely explanation for Lezian's success rate is the advantages he gains from his single minded devotion to killing his prey, his knowledge of the radiant's powers and combat skills, and the survivability his particular powers give him?

Do you agree that, given the fact that he had never been killed by anyone twice, the Pursuer would have succeeded against an average knight radiant in modern day?

If so, then I see no reason to continue arguing, since we already agree.

I am not going to answer any of that, because as I said, I feel this has reached the point of ridiculousness. I do not see anything conducive in continuing this. 

10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yes. I agree that Jasnah was surprised by how effective the enemies anti-shardbearer measures were. However, she obviously knew they existed before the battle started.

Jasnah here is upset that she doesn't have the skill to beat a fused without relying on her radiant powers like a normal shardbearer would have to. ergo this section:

where Wit tells her that it is alright for her to use her powers. Jasnah isn't upset that she can't beat a fused without her powers for no reason. Her reason for being upset is that she doesn't have the physical combat skills that others in her army do. She's upset because someone like Dalinar would have beaten that fused without needing to soulcast. So yes, the external thing that she was upset at was that using her powers to defeat a fused felt "too easy", but the reason it felt "too easy" was not because the fused was easy to defeat, but because she wanted to be as good as Dalinar and other shardbearers.

Well, none of those would actually be effective. Fused don't need to breath and can heal from acid as well as a radiant. Particularly the regrowth variety. (Come to think of it, have we ever seen one of those run out of healing? Heavenly ones can fly forever, can regrowth fused heal forever unless you hit their gemheart?) Now, I admit that there were other things that Jasnah could have done. She could have soulcasted the air to stone, or whatever, but, particularly with limited stormlight, it wouldn't be a completely one-sided battle like you make it seem. I do agree that Jasnah had a significant advantage over the fused, even disregarding her surprise advantage. Not an unbeatable one, but with her powers there was never a chance that she would die, and she would have won that encounter in most scenarios.

If I was judging this based on purely physical prowess, Jasnah would have won just about 0/10 times. The fused was easily dominating her in a physical battle, and the only way she could have won that way would have been landing a very lucky hit on the gemheart. With her powers but without surprise, I'd place her odds at more around 8-9/10.

You say he's not this amazing unstoppable killer, but then say that he has a ton of advantages. An advantage is an advantage, no matter where it comes from. Yes, Lezian is not the most skilled fighter alive, nor is he the most powerful. But he normally has the advantage in focus, experience, surprise, knowledge, etc. Our original argument started when I said that the only radiants that would have been able to replicate Kaladin's feat were Szeth and Dalinar, yes? So, in the same circumstances, with Lezian having all the advantages he normally does, he would eventually kill basically anyone else. I didn't say, or at least didn't mean to say, that no radiant would ever be able to beat him in a one on one fight when they were on even footing, or when the radiant had an advantage. If Lezian were that powerful, no one would have killed him in the first place.

I literally just wrote I never said the fused were push overs 

I literally never said Jasnah was over powered.

I literally added a quote from Wit where he specifically says jasnah feels it is unfair that her powers can slay dozens and they cannot resist.

The bodies of the fused are still living bodies. They have to breathe like anyone else. They have to expend voidlight to actively heal. 

I am not trying to convince you of anything. I am only going on what is literally written in the book. I am getting tired of being misquoted and misrepresented. 

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Jasnah wasn't surprised that they had systems in place to deal with a shardbearer, she was surprised that their systems were as effective as they were. I understand that Jasnah was handicapping herself. A small nitpick I have is that Jasnah didn't think using her powers gave her an unfair advantage over the fused, she thought using them gave her an unfair advantage over normal shardbearers.

I mean I literally already quoted a line, where Jasnah specifically says it is because they had systems in place to deal with shardbearers. 

“I’m not the unstoppable force I imagined myself to be,” she said. “They know how to deal with Shardbearers; I couldn’t bring down a Fused in a fair fight.”

And again literally already quoted the line, where both Wit and Jasnah say it is her powers that make the fight with the fused unfair.

"I couldn't bring down a Fused in a fair fight."

“There are no fair fights, Jasnah,” Wit said. “There’s never been such a thing. The term is a lie used to impose imaginary order on something chaotic. Two men of the same height, age, and weapon will not fight one another fairly, for one will always have the advantage in training, talent, or simple luck.”

She grunted. Dalinar wouldn’t think much of that statement.

“I know you feel you need to show the soldiers you can fight,” Wit said softly. “Prove to them, maybe to yourself, that you are as capable on a battlefield as Dalinar is becoming with a book. This is good, it breaks down barriers—and there will be those wrongheaded men who would not follow you otherwise. But take care, Jasnah. Talented or not, you cannot conjure for yourself a lifetime of experienced butchery through force of will. There is no shame in using the powers you have developed. It is not unfair—or rather, it is no more unfair when the most skilled swordsman on the battlefield falls to a stray arrow. Use what you have.”

It does not matter how physically strong that fused is, if Jasnah can turn the air into acid to burn it, the rock beneath into water to drown it, the air into toxic gas to suffocate it. That is why it is unfair. Because it is not a matching of physical strength or direct combative skill. Is the archer that shoots an arrow into a crowd and takes out a captain any more or less skilled at wielding a sword than the captain? Does that mean the captain with physical prowess is useless or can be easily overcome in other scenarios? Of course not. But in that match up, the tools involved favor the archer. Just like in the match up between Jasnah and the purely physical fused, the tools would favor Jasnah. 

To be clear, I am not trying to say fused were push overs. I am sure they have their own counters, and means of fighting radiants. But that still does not change what was shown in that scene for me. That is why I feel we are talking past each other. I feel like you are taking what I write as saying the fused over all, the entire army is nothing against the radiants. When that is not what I am saying at all. 

Edit: here is another quote from the same chapter that supports everything i said:

“We will see. You think your powers are unfair because you slay dozens, and they cannot resist? What happens when a single individual can kill tens of thousands in moments—assuming the enemy will kindly bunch up in a neat little pike block. Things will change rapidly when such powers become common.”

“They’re hardly common.”

“I didn’t say they were,” he said. “Yet.”

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That said, I feel that I may have been unclear on this before, so I'll clarify it here now. I do not believe that Jasnah could only beat the fused by taking him by surprise with her powers. All that I am saying is that the claim that if Jasnah used her powers, she would be completely unstoppable, is false. Jasnah using her powers, without the aid of surprise, likely would have beaten the fused, but the fight would likely not have ended the moment she used her powers. The fused would have reacted to her catching everything on fire, and would not have given her the opening he did. The fight would have progressed further, and in the end Jasnah would most likely have won. However, the fused would have had a chance to win, meaning that the reason that this thread was made (radiants of the fourth ideal seem too powerful for the fused to defeat) is not entirely true. That was my only intention in arguing this point.

Then there is the confusion, because I never said Jasnah was unstoppable. I never said the fused was a push over. What I feel I said three times now, is judging Jasnah's capabilities when fighting the fused based on purely physical prowess does a disservice to both combatants. I pretty much covered this earlier in this posting so I won't just repeat it, but basically the arrow and the captain example I gave. 

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I wouldn't say that the Pursuer is never cautious the first time, but when we compare his first fight with Kaladin to his second fight, in the first he was always overconfident, particularly when Kaladin's powers where disabled, and in the second, despite Kaladin's powers being similarly disabled, Lezian fought extremely cautiously until Kaladin started running. Given that at this point, Lezian is starting to believe that he is truly unbeatable and is on the verge of insanity, he was likely even more cautious in the past. That said, my purpose was to agree with you, and to theorize as to why Lezian was able to keep from being killed twice in the thousands of years that he lived. Him simply retreating every time he is defeated or close to being defeated seems to me to be the most rational explanation for that fact. Kaladin was different from the radiants that were pursued in the past in that he forced Lezian to either fight him to the death or lose his reputation entirely. 

Again, Leshwi told us everything about Lezian at the beginning of the book. Lezian is obsessive. He was the very first fused ever killed by a human. If we take that at face value, then we could say he is the weakest. He was the first to fall. 

But to be clear, I am not saying he is the weakest. What I am saying is statements like that could be interpreted a ton of ways. So I try to stick to specifically what we are told.

She said he pursues his personal vendettas to the exclusion of all else. That he has sabotaged missions, and messed up past operations because of his obsession. If there is a situation where you have to maintain multiple objectives (lets say keep a group of people alive, reach a point of safety, and hold back enemy troops) while I only have one, killing you, that gives me the advantage. Further having already died at your hands, I know how you fight, what your abilities are. That gives me a ton of advantages. That doesn't mean I am this amazing unstoppable killer. It just means I have resources you don't. 

13 hours ago, Nameless said:

The fused wouldn't have bothered to do all that against a regular elscecaller. He might have done that if he knew it was Jasnah, queen of Alethkar and only fourth ideal radiant in Dalinar's coalition, but against a normal elsecaller, no need. Jasnah knew everything about progression fused. That's her thing. She reads and studies about everything. She definitely read battle reports on all the known fused varieties before going into battle.

That said, the fused had an undeniable skill advantage over Jasnah. Her powers did allow her to pull out the win, particularly but against a normal fused, probably about average in skill, Jasnah won by taking him by surprise. She didn't immediately overwhelm him with her powers, and she got absolutely bodied in the skill department. Against the Pursuer, you only get the luxury of surprising him with your powers once. Then he gets a lot more careful. And given how long he's lived, he has to have strategies for taking on at least nine of the radiant orders. (Probably not Bondsmiths though)

See this is the issue we keep coming back to.

The scene referenced states clearly that Jasnah was surprised that they had systems in place to deal with a shardbearer. That her acting as a shardbearer using only physical attacks (armor and sword) was unable to keep up because she lacked the necessary martial training that Dalinar had for years. She was handicapping herself because she was not letting herself use her powers. That she felt using her powers would be a cheat. It is not that the only reason she beat the fused was because she surprised it. She found another fused later and was able to beat it. Jasnah felt using her powers gave her an unfair advantage against that fused. She also expected if they realized she was who she was (Jasnah, Queen of Alethkar) they would have focused on her to the exclusion of all else to overwhelm and bring her down. 

I feel like one moment you are saying that Jasnah struggles when fighting the fused, and the only reason she won was because she surprised it, then you say she can hold her own, but then you say again that the fused had an advantage over her. Elsecaller's strengths lie with their powers (transformation and transportation). Saying jasnah lacks skill to fight a fused because she is unable to best it through physical means only is like saying a fish fails because it cannot climb a tree. A fish excels at swimming. Judging it by its capability of climbing is an exercise in futility.

The skill of the fused is immaterial. If you know what you are fighting, you can prepare well in advance and set the encounter in your favor. There will never be a fair fight, and skill can mean nothing in battle. Hence the stray arrow comment. 

At this point we are definitely talking past each other. I am good. I wish you luck with your theories. 

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Well, he would eventually be killed by someone after the desolation ended. He does die, he just doesn't die twice. like I said, I'm not saying that he's unbeatable, just that when he's being careful, he's almost impossible to kill. He can just teleport away if he needs to retreat, then try to kill you again later. So, yeah he's skilled, very skilled, but most of his reputation came from his persistence. And most radiants would either have been forced to run or hide from him (Shallan, Lift, probably Jasnah) or wouldn't have been able to fight him off again and again and again for their entire lives. Or at least they didn't have a reputation that would let them make the Pursuer, and everyone else, think they could do so.

So he is never careful the first time, but super duper careful the second time? Every single time? He can only teleport three times. Then he needs more voidlight. There are a whole lot of assumptions being stated regarding the pursuer when we have Leshwi break it down for us.

But regardless, as I said, I feel we are talking past each other. So i am good. I wish you luck with your theories. 

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

Okay. Let me make some things clear. First off, I agree that every radiant order can fight. While some are more suited than others to fighting, they can all fight.

Second, Jasnah considered the way that she beat the fused to be unfair. She was disappointed that she couldn't beat the fused without resorting to using her powers. I agree with this. However, I also believe that the fused would have put up a much better fight if he had known about her soulcasting abilities before fighting her. I'm not saying Jasnah would have lost, merely that it would have been a more prolonged battle.

The impression that I got from you earlier is that Jasnah could barely beat the fused. Which is why I explained she had handicapped herself in that situation.

Perfect hindsight is 20/20. If the progression fused knew he was going to face an elsecaller, then he would have outnumbered her, and probably had forces waiting in the cognitive realm to ambush her. If Jasnah knew more about the progression fused, she probably would have things in place to counter what he could do. 

That doesn't say anything about the individual's strengths and skills. It just shows who has more knowledge and resources to draw on in that situation. Hence the comment about the skilled swordsman getting taken out by a stray arrow.

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I am not forgetting that radiants can see into the cognitive realm.

1. We don't know what would happen if aluminum was soulcast around him. However, we have also never seen aluminum be soulcast, and it seems to be very difficult to do so, otherwise Jasnah would spam aluminum around all the fused she fought. She didn't even try to do so when Dalinar first opened the perpedicularity.

Although Roshar does have aluminum, they do not know what it is nor how it works with investiture. When Hoid provided the sheets to hide the soulcasting from the screamers, they did not know what the "strange metal" was. Since then Hoid could have explained it to Jasnah. Ancient radiants could have had extensive knowledge of aluminum. 

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2. Elsecallers can't blow up areas until they discover C4, Jasnah merely caught everything on fire. Lezian would survive this even if he was caught in it, and, since he is careful when humans try to fight him (If they've killed him before), would likely just teleport away before it worked.

What happens if you leave the gas on in your house and then it all ignites at once? Boom. it is described as explosive. It stunned the fused long enough for Jasnah to ram her blade through its chest, breaking its gemstone.

So basically the elsecaller survived the first encounter like Kaladin did, resulting in Lezian retreating. The elsecaller now knows what to expect. And as far as we know, the elsecaller could follow his teleporting or through the cognitive realm. He has a limit of three jumps, with the last resulting in him running out. Kaladin could not pursue, but an elsecaller potentially could. 

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3. He is very good at hand-to-hand combat. Plus most radiants are far less proficient at soulcasting than Jasnah, so doing that in a pinch would be very difficult.

All elsecallers are good at soulcasting. WoB below:

Questioner

Is Jasnah being able to Soulcast at a distance the resonance of her two Surges or is that just a Radiant thing that's not with the fabrials. 

Brandon Sanderson

Jasnah's Order is better at that than others. It is not impossible that you could imagine a Lightweaver being able to do it.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

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4. Ambushing Lezian while he is in hunting mode might work, but again, he can teleport, and heal from shardblade wounds. Hitting him in the gemheart before he notices you would be very difficult.

Sneak attack, take your time to line up blade, and drive it through. Blade goes through anything, and once it hits the gemheart, crack done. 

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5. I don't think that's a traditional lightweaver power. Maybe they could do that, but he could still teleport out of the way.

It is hinted though not confirmed. Jasnah assumed that was what Shallan had been doing, that she was making illusions illusions physical. All those spikes shooting out, one of them is bound to pierce the gemheart. 

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6. We don't know what willshaper teleportation looks like. If he's anything like the other fused, Lezian's surge will manifest differently from the radiant's.

We know that windrunners can go faster, and more dramatic effects over the short term, while the heavenly ones have to build up speed but are more maneuverable. I think a willshaper could watch where lezian goes via peering into the cognitive realm, and piggy back on him. 

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I'm not saying anything that the books themselves don't say. The Pursuer went seven thousand years without being killed twice. No one had ever killed him twice. That means that either all the radiants were pathetic in those days, or Kaladin is special. And, given all the stuff we've seen Kaladin do in the books, I'd say it's the latter. (Of course, Lezian's deteriorating mental state probably had something to do with it as well. He was less careful, and his dedication to his reputation approached insanity.) I suspect that Kaladin has something weird going on due to Honor's death. He's far more connected to Honor than most people, and that might be making his bond abnormally strong or giving him the "wind sense" that he sometimes has.

So I did a search in the book for "second" and I can't find anywhere where it says that he has not been killed twice for seven thousand years by the same person. He was certainly very very upset about this, and it is mentioned his mythos took a hit in how he was killed in front of everyone. But I can't seem to find it saying he has not been killed twice by the same person in seven thousand years. If you can find it, please reference, because I do want to see it. Not being snarky, I genuinely cannot find it. 

Edit: found it! Ironically enough it was me writing "twice", that made me think to search by the word "twice".

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That said, I'm not saying that no one else can compare to Kaladin. Szeth would be able to win against Lezian, particularly with Nightblood. A lot of radiants would be able to win against Lezian, but the problem is that he just keeps coming. His reputation is that of a personification of death, a relentless predator that will get to you eventually. He's not unbeatable short term, but in the long term he had never lost. Even after Kaladin beat him, Lezian would have come back to fight him again, trying forever until he won. Fortunately for Kaladin, anti-voidlight made winning for a third time unnecessary.

I do not disagree with that. Flip a coin long enough and invariably you will come up heads. Not saying Lezian killing is pure luck. Not at all. Just I agree, his "fearsome" reputation is more due to him continually focusing on one person to the exclusion of all else, than necessarily a success rate. Otherwise why kill himself before the desolation comes to an end for fear of someone getting in the last hit on him?

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

Jasnah couldn't beat them without her powers, but she also couldn't beat them in a fair fight. She only killed the fused that she did by 1. using her powers at an unexpected time and 2. killing him before he recovered from the shock of everything suddenly catching on fire. So yeah, she was upset that she couldn't beat them without her powers, but she also had to take them by surprise with her powers. That fused could have fought much more effectively if he'd been expecting her to use soulcasting.

At this point we are starting to talk past each other. It is pretty clear to me from that chapter, that jasnah considered "fighting fair" was purely physical. Hence the comparison to Dalinar fighting. She felt using her powers would give her an unfair advantage. Which is why Wit said fighting is never fair. You use what you got. 

Literally he made the example of the most skilled swordsman in the world dying from a stray arrow. Doesn't matter how good that swordsman is. The arrow still negated all that skill.

Anyone knowing what to expect is going to be in an advantageous position. That's Batman's entire "power". He prepares for everything. 

And Jasnah clearly indicates that she could have dispatched the fused far easier using her powers, but she chose not to for the reasons already given multiple times.

Edit: it is even stated later between Wit and jasnah in the chapter that old style battle (formed up battalions) may become obsolete once someone can just blow-up a whole area.

There are counters for everything. I am not arguing that the Fused lacked anyway to fight radiants. 

I am saying that all the radiant orders had ways to fight too. Not just windrunners and not just magical kaladin as you are painting him.

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A lightweaver does have abilities that would work in combat, Shallan in OB proved that. I'm not disputing that the orders can all fight well. But Jasnah's soulcasting surprise attack would only work once against the pursuer. Yes she could fight, but Lezian is among the most skilled of the fused, and Jasnah only beat a normal fused with a surprise attack using her powers. None of the radiants besides Dalinar, Szeth, and Kaladin have the combination of skill and powers to beat Lezian for a second time. Other radiants could hold their own, but kill the pursuer? scare him? Force him into a confrontation where retreat is not an option?

You are forgetting that elsecallers, willshapers,  and lightweavers can peer into the cognitive realm anytime they want. Lezian would have greater trouble getting the drop on those orders. 

Do we know what would happen to lezian if while he was a red spark, aluminum was soulcast around him?

Or what if the elsecaller just blew up the entire area the moment lezian appears like jasnah did?

Or soulcasts the broken spurs to air so nothing to stab with?

Or what if a lightweaver sets up an ambush for lezian? Has an illusion hanging out with a boulder near by. Lezian teleports in, illusions fuzzed, shardblade swipes out from the illusory Boulder. 

Or what if the lightweaver can make physical illusions, and has spikes of light shoot out from its back spearing him and shattering his gemstone?

Or what if the willshaper teleports with him all three times till he runs out and then teleports him into solid rock so he cannot breathe and dies.

Further it is made pretty clearly in the novel by leshwi that lezians deal is:

1. Someone kills lezian

2. Lezian then makes it his life's mission to kill that person 

3. Lezian dies over and over till he wins, killing that person

4. If the desolation is almost over, he kills himself so no one has a chance to kill him before he can no longer come back 

He basically artificially inflates his kill count by disregarding how many times he had to die to accomplish it. Leshwi says so herself. 

I am beginning to feel like you have protagonistitis. There is nothing Kaladin can't do and no one else can compare. 

I may stop contributing because I don't really see this discourse going anywhere.

28 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Bondsmiths in the past have used that power. Like Ishar? he's a bondsmith, and used his powers in the past, before Dalinar did. The Stormfather was surprised when Dalinar refueled spheres, implying that it wasn't a power that traditional bondsmiths had. So at most a bondsmith could refuel individual radiants, not enough to keep an army supplied.

I am aware of all of this. Jasnah didn't use her powers because she wanted to get a genuine feel for battle, because it would give her an unfair advantage over the regular soldiers and shardbearers. Not because it would make fighting the fused "too easy". When she beat the fused we saw her fight, she did so only because she took him by surprise with her powers. That's why she was upset. When she talked to Wit, she even outright said that she was less unstoppable than she thought she would be.

I feel you are taking that comment out of context. She said she was less unstoppable as a general shardbearer, not as a radiant. She then continues to say with her powers it would not have been a fair fight. As in, in order for her to consider it a fair fight with the fused, she had to handicap herself by not using her powers, resist healing as quickly, and summoning her blade so fast. Some she could not change and thereby labeled them as unfortunate concessions.  To which Wit replies a fight is never fair. I have included the excerpt below for reference:

Other soldiers came in at Jasnah and began ramming thin pikes through her faceplate. One pierced her eye, making her scream. Stormlight healed her though, and her helm sealed the slit to prevent further attacks. With Stormlight, she didn’t need it to breathe anyway. But this, like her quick summoning of her Blade, was a concession. It risked revealing what she was.

“I’m not the unstoppable force I imagined myself to be,” she said. “They know how to deal with Shardbearers; I couldn’t bring down a Fused in a fair fight.”

“There are no fair fights, Jasnah,” Wit said. “There’s never been such a thing. The term is a lie used to impose imaginary order on something chaotic. Two men of the same height, age, and weapon will not fight one another fairly, for one will always have the advantage in training, talent, or simple luck.”

She grunted. Dalinar wouldn’t think much of that statement.

“I know you feel you need to show the soldiers you can fight,” Wit said softly. “Prove to them, maybe to yourself, that you are as capable on a battlefield as Dalinar is becoming with a book. This is good, it breaks down barriers—and there will be those wrongheaded men who would not follow you otherwise. But take care, Jasnah. Talented or not, you cannot conjure for yourself a lifetime of experienced butchery through force of will. There is no shame in using the powers you have developed. It is not unfair—or rather, it is no more unfair when the most skilled swordsman on the battlefield falls to a stray arrow. Use what you have.”

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You are correct that Dalinar wasn't present to renew her spheres, but he was present to renew the spheres after the battle. Meaning she had stormlight to begin with. In older times, radiants did not have that luxury. They would have had to ration stormlight constantly. Jasnah was almost out of stormlight after two hours of fighting. That's a fourth ideal radiant, focused on using her powers as little as possible. How much stormlight do you think a windrunner squire would take, constantly flying for hours? Do you think that any army could afford to supply potentially thousands of squires, through multiple battles, for a week or more, without any hope of resupply before the storm?

She had stormlight at the start of the battle. I wasn't disputing that. Also to clarify, the reason I ring in is because I feel you are misrepresenting the capabilities of other orders being able to fight a fused versus windrunners. A lightweaver has abilities that could enable it to fight lezian just like any other order. If you limit the combatants to purely physical attacks and no powers, then yes I could see kaladin being better off than the others (except for dalinar). But all radiants can hold their own in different ways. And as we can see, certainly can jasnah

So regarding the original premise of this thread, that Jasnah always was a traitor from the beginning. I was re-reading a chapter regarding another thread and I saw a portion from her perspective that I feel is pertinent. It's page 761 of rhythm of war. It is regarding the sleepless. They spied on wit. He mentions odium and she labels Odium the enemy. No thoughts on being duplicitous in those statements. So unless she is lying to herself in that moment, jasnah is not a traitor.

Now at the end of the day anything is possible, so could that change? Sure. But we also have a WoB that taravangian had originally intended to recruit jasnah because he thought she was as extremely and dangerously (Brandon's words) utilitarian as he is. Because she is not, and other reasons, he decided against it. 

So since jasnah sees odium as an enemy, and taravangian doesn't think he could recruit her, says to me that she won't be joining Todium. But like I said, anything is certainly possible. So I wish everyone luck with their theories. 

So was re-reading a section in rhythm of war page 755 for another thread when I found an interesting tidbit about soulcasting. It seems difficultly not only depends on the material but the mood the material is in at the time. So in this case air is normally harder than stone, but because the air was stagnant and "bored", it was easier than the "happy" stone

"Steady stone, a part of her mind thought. Happy and pleased with its life on the plains. No, it would resist her requests to change."

"She reached out to the air, which was stagnant and morose today. Draining Stormlight from the gemstones at her waist, she gave it a single command. Change. No begging, as she’d tried when younger. Only firmness. The bored air accepted, and formed into oil all around them."

Edit: oh and it is also mentioned how when she changed the air to oil, everyone in the area ended up with some of it in their mouths causing both sides to gag and cough. I am assuming because it changed while being inhaled.

10 hours ago, Nameless said:

He has the skills, but fighting someone in full regenerating shardplate with a shapeshifting blade that cuts through anything (disregarding other powers) head on is pretty stupid when all you can do is teleport. You move around them, disorient them, make them constantly watch for you out of the corner of their eye, until finally you wear them down enough to kill them. His powerset is perfect for "pursuing" people, and that's where his skills lie. Not in fighting on a battlefield, but in hunting his prey, constantly harrying them, until he eventually wears them down or finds them in a moment of weakness.

The wording implies one more fused, not multiple.

She was almost immediately beaten by the first fused she fought, and only survived because she took him by surprise with her powers. Sure, she would have been more effective using her powers to their fullest, but why didn't she? Because they would have swarmed her immediately. Additionally, she had access to tons of stormlight, without worry of using it all up or needing to save some for later. Seriously, Dalinar as a source of infinite stormlight cannot be overrated. Jasnah didn't need to worry about her plate breaking, because it would simply repair itself. Ancient radiants? How many battles do you have to fight in between storms? Run out of stormlight? Too bad. The fused didn't run out of voidlight. Now you have to fight them with only the heralds as surgebinders. And plate probably takes a huge amount of stormlight to repair. After the disaster at the Tower in tWoK, over 1,000 soldiers in Dalinar's army gave their spheres to repair Dalinar's armor, and it was still missing pieces. Now, radiant plate is obviously more efficient, and quicker, but I'm guessing that repairing it takes a massive amount of stormlight.

I highly recommend you reread the whole scene. It covers in detail everything you bring up. Jasnah was limiting herself because she wanted to try and feel like a soldier. That her powers made it feel like she had an unfair advantage against the fused. Hoid had to talk to her and convince her how in battle it will never be fair and on equal footing. Had to convince her to use her powers. Dalinar was not present with her to renew her stormlight and she specifically mentioned how she wanted to ration her stormlight so as not to be dependant on him. She mentions using stormlight to heal her eye and how her armor used stormlight to heal itself. She also didn't want to reveal who she was because she was concerned she would be targeted above all else because she is the queen. She was concerned her identity as queen would be revealed because she is one of the few radiants with armor. So they would deduce it had to be her. The chapter starts at page 751. Give it a reread. I figure copy pasting the whole chapter here would be a bit much

22 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I mean, Jasnah in plate got beaten pretty easily by a fused. She only won because she took him by surprise with her powers. Lezian could probably outlast most radiants in plate, slowly wearing them down. Even if he couldn't win in single combat, him and a group of soldiers could do it. He could get the radiant on the ground, then the ordinary soldiers come in with hammers to break the plate, and he takes the kill. Add to this he's almost impossible to actually kill, (unless you convince him that retreating will destroy his legacy) and his teleporting ability lets him potentially ambush a radiant at almost any time. So the radiant would have to be constantly alert. Lopen with shardplate might manage to survive a couple encounters with the pursuer, but how long would it take before he gets ambushed without enough stormlight? How long would he last on the battlefield with Lezian constantly ambushing him, zipping in from behind at just the wrong moments?

Jasnah was deliberately handicapping herself in that scene to experience battle on the front line. She wasn't playing to her strength. Its specifically mentioned in the scene.

Rhythm of War page 753

This is less effective, Ivory said to her. Our other powers are. Use them?

No. I want to know the real feeling of war, Jasnah thought. Or as close to it as I can allow myself, in Plate with Blade.

(Further in the scene)

Such fun is, Ivory said. But of course, Jasnah mustn’t use her powers. She wants to play soldier.

There are also parts where she mentions how she is trying to appear as just a shardbearer, so was minimizing all her radiant powers to remain incognito. I can post those as well if that helps.

Edit: ah was rereading the scene and there are two parts i forgot.

1. A windrunner falls from the sky dead after fighting with a heavenly one.

2. Jasnah, worried about the sacrifice her troops make, wouldn't retreat and kept going. She went for so long she lost track and:

"She vaguely remembered fighting another Fused, and some Regals, and …"

So apparently she was able to hold her own against further fused, regals and etc

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Soulcaster capabilities aren't public knowledge, no one who would know would be able to tell.

And on top of that theives are known for exagerating tales, there would be no reason to trust them.

It looks like it was Shallan, not the theives that Jasnah was worried about seeing her true soulcasting. Jasnah hid her true soulcasting three times in front of shallan. The alley was just the second time.

And we know Jasnah was attempting to maintain the ruse even then. WoB below shows she broke the smoke stone on purpose to appear like a normal soulcaster. I beleive there is another WoB that is even clearer but I am on my phone ATM so finding it is a little interesting 

Coltonx9

Why do the gems in Jasnah's Soulcaster break when she is using her own ability in the first book?

Brandon Sanderson

Jasnah is very good at fooling people.

21 hours ago, TypicalShard said:

I probably should've clarified that. When I said I didn't care I was referring to this: 

Adolin and the moments you discussed were not ones I feel particular passion for, but I do disagree with how you presented their similarities to things that happen in RoW. I was trying to say was that Adolin and my feelings for the character are not why I disagreed with you. I dont care one way or the other what other people feel for the characters in the story. 

Thank you for clarifying. 

Dalinar's madness and Evi were always about Dalinar and him coming to terms with his darker impulses and his past. Trying to be more diplomatic, instead of just forcing people to do what he says. At the end of Oathbringer, some of the fans felt like there was not enough blow back among his family regarding Evi. 

Now I have put this separate so hopefully there is absolutely no way this can be missed. I am not saying those that felt that way were wrong to feel the way they did. Nor am I saying their complaints resulted in Brandon changing anything in subsequent books. 

What I am saying, is Adolin being upset about it in Rhythm of War is to show that blow back. Again make it external. Again showing the fallout of Dalinar's past, and his struggle to be a better man. He has a lot of blind spots. He is learning to recognize that. 

Both city scenes involve Adolin meeting with officials in the city and talking, while Shallan goes around covertly finding out what is really going on. Shallan find out about the unmade. Shallan found out about Restares.

But lets take it further. The fact that Testament popped up, and originally Lift was going to be the edgedancer to accompany Shallan, says to me the original plot had nothing to do with Adolin at all. The deadeyes was supposed to be about Shallan/Testament and Lift. 

Which is why again, I was saying that other character's plots were folded over to include Adolin, or use Adolin to further their own. Which for me means he is a pure foil character. I don't think that is a bad thing. it is just a fact of life to me. I certainly understand you disagree and I respect your opinion. My opinion is the unpopular one after all. Hence it is in this thread lol.

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Probably yes, but that is a false contradiction. Nobody is proposing enslaving all low ranked people. The data used to show that a group consisting only of slaves would be worse than a group without slaves cannot be used to exclude that a mixed group would work even better.

Not sure how Alethkar is not a mixed slave, worker. Other nations don't have slaved at all. It would be a simple matter to compare cultures across the ages and see the difference. 

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Thaidakar may be more ruthless than Jasnah, but he is also more romantic. And his ruthlessness is focused on killing enemies or collateral damage. He would not have suggested asking the Heralds to let themselves be killed, but he would have proposed exterminating the Parshendi.

Actually Thaidakar would say they should kill the heralds knowing the heralds would come back to life afterwards. Then after Kaladin is shocked and abhored, Thaidakar would wait till Kaladin is distracted, and then use Kaladin's spear while he is still holding it, to stab a Herald, killing him. You know, like he did to

24 minutes ago, TypicalShard said:

 

I don't really care I want you to explain. 

Well if that's how you are going to be, I am not sure why I should care what you want me to do.

I stated my unpopular opinion in a thread titled unpopular opinions. I feel I fully explained my opinion. You aren't giving me much reason to engage with you on the topic given your response.

Nothing is compelling me to elaborate on my beliefs further to you than I already have. You haven't given me much reason to think such a conversation will end well for either party.