Pathfinder

The rough percentage Brandon gave was 1 every couple of thousand, or .05 percent. If we assume 15 million as the population, as you mentioned earlier, then the next step is how many people are combat capable. I would not assume the entire population of a planet are all adults in their prime correct? Roughly 30 percent of our planet's population is under 15, and roughly 10 percent of our planet's population is over 65. Now being certain metalborn would widen this range as a 70 year old pewter thug could still fight very well, but for purposes of sanity, to me, we should exclude those age groups. So now you have 9 million people of the right age to fight. .05 percent of 9 million is 4,500 You gave the example of .1 percent being mistborn. that is 4 and a half people so let us round up to 5 mistborn. Coinshots are relatively more prolific, so we will make them, what? 10 percent? 450 coinshots Now you have the other metals, of which among allomancy is 15, and feruchemy is 16. So 31 abilities you could get. so 89.9 percent left divided equally among 31 abilities is 2.9 percent. But let us round that up to 3 percent. That means you have 135 pewter thugs, 135 gold ferrings, 135 aluminum gnats, 135 gold mistings, and so on. That is also not accounting for twinborn, their rarity, and possible combinations. So 4,500 metalborn sounds about in line with 3,000 to 4,000 radiants. WoB below for reference: Questioner So what is the, like, actual density of metalborns born in Elendel? Brandon Sanderson Oh boy, I have this in my notes somewhere. Um... Questioner *inaudible* I guess? Brandon Sanderson Roughly. All metalborn? One out of every couple thousands. Little more common than you would probably think, based on... I don't know. People usually assume they're a little more rare than they are. But, yeah... Questioner Yeah. It just-- As I was reading I kept finding people saying, "Oh yeah, it's so rare. It's so insanely rare." I was like, "I feel like it's not that rare," like... Brandon Sanderson Yeah, but still. One every couple thousand. Like, you're going to know somebody, but the chances of you actually being one are pretty rare. Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

Eh, personally I disagree, but I can see why you would feel that way, so to each their own.

I am sorry, to clarify, I was speaking of the discussion regarding the numbers of mistings/ferrings/mistborn/feruchemists versus radiants. You stated you believed there would not be the number of Radiants that was implied by the other poster (sorry don't have a chance to scroll up and confirm who). That radiants were not all combatants. That due to the population density of Scadrial, there would potentially be more metalborn. I was pointing out of the metalborn, not all would be direct combat effective, so the number you would be drawing upon would be less than you initially posited. I was also pointing out that although yes some radiants were not combative, it was due to personal choice, not due to the order they belong to. In order words, not all truthwatchers did not fight. Not all dustbringers did fight. Just because the powers you received from the order you belonged to lended towards defense or offense did not mean that order did not fight at all, or always fought. You could have a truthwatcher or elsecaller on the front lines, using their surges offensively (truthwatchers regenerating faster with the addition of regrowth, and well we have seen Jasnah with transformation and transportation), just like you could have a dustbringer who refuses to fight. The order does not determine their combat capabilities. With allomancy and feruchemy however it does. I wasn't commenting on the effectiveness of coinshots, or pewter thugs, or gold ferrings versus a radiant in shardplate and etc. I was commenting it is an unfair assumption that all those metalborn you will have access to will be coinshots, pewter thugs, or gold ferrings. You are going to have aluminum gnats, gold mistings, and so on, which will reduce the number of offensive combatants based on magical ability. You could totally put a gun in every single one of those hands, but if we are comparing numbers of metalborn versus radiant, I do not believe it is so clear cut. Hopefully that clarified things. edit: to put it another way: walk up to a truthwatcher. Ask if he or she wants to fight. If he or she says yes, he or she can regenerate faster, and (potentially) use illusions to fight. If he or she says no, then that person just refused walk up to a dustbringer. Ask if he or she wants to fight. If he or she says yes, he or she can burn and slide to fight. If he or she says no, then that person just refused walk up to a pewter thug. Ask if he or she wants to fight. If he or she says yes, he or she can move faster, strike harder, and take more damage to fight. If he or she says no, then that person just refused walk up to a aluminum gnat. Ask if he or she wants to fight. If he or she says yes, he or she can...... do nothing. Hand that person a gun, and include them in the general infantry to fight. If he or she says no, then that person just refused. walk up to a gold misting. Ask if he or she wants to fight. ie he or she says yes, he or she can..... do nothing. Hand that person a gun and include them in the general infantry to fight. If he or she says no, then that person just refused. In both the aluminum gnat, and gold misting, they are included under the umbrella of metal born, and would take up a percentage of the percentage of metalborn, yet they would be no more effective than any other normal person in combat. That is an aluminum gnat or gold misting in the percentage that you get instead of a pewter thug or coinshot. So you may not have as large of a pool of combat effective metalborn to draw upon as you earlier posited.

Nale was quite explicit. It was because the Fused returned to claim their land that he sided with them. Not because of Odium. Oathbringer page 1104 "A god is dead. Another won the war by right of conquest. The original masters of this land have returned, as you so aptly made metaphor, with the keys to the house. Whose law should the Skybreakers follow? That of humans, of that of the real owners of this land?" Oathbringer page 1114 "You must choose, Szeth - son - Neturo," Nin said. "The Skybreakers will swear to the Dawnsingers and their law. And you? Will you join us?" Oathbringer page 1197 "You have determined that the parshmen are the true owners of this land, and that the Skybreakers should follow their laws"

I think you are skewing the numbers unfairly in your favor. Even if there is a decent percentage of 15 million (which it is stated full feruchemists and mistborn are exceedingly rare, then twin born are very very rare, with ferrings being rare, and mistings being relatively common but still a small portion of the population). But lets give the benefit of the doubt and give a nice chunk of the percentage. Of that chunk, some will be "useless" in direct combat (gold, aluminum, bronze and duralumin misting, aluminum, duralumin, brass, copper, bronze, cadmium, bendalloy, electrum ferrings). Then of the remaining, you do not know the range of what mistings and ferrings you will get. Coinshots tend to be more numerous as per the books so that is good at least. So just like you said we do not know how many combat ready radiants they would get (though as per WoB, it is not because the order itself would not be combative, it is the choice of the individual. You can be a truthwatcher or elsecaller, and be on the front lines killing enemies. You can be a pacific windrunner. The order itself may lend to certain personalities, but it does not prevent someone from fighting if they chose to and believe in it) while mistings and ferrings powers can be useless in combat making then equate a normal person and be reliant on guns and such. Those mistings that are for all intents and purposes as useful in a direct fight as a normal person, is reducing your number of combat ready mistings and ferrings from your percentage. So TLDR, I think it is jumping the gun to assume there will be so many more mistings and ferrings that could contribute to direct combat fight with their abilities. I am sure there could be clever uses of certain abilities (such as bronze misting and ferrings scouts), but that is one less soldier with an ability to use on the enemy which was the same argument pointed towards non-combative radiants. for example, lets say you get 150,000 metal born. That is not 100 percent pewter thugs, coinshots, gold ferrings, and so on. Couple of hundred are going to be aluminum gnats. Couple hundred are going to be gold mistings. Couple of hundred are going to be gasper ferrings, and so on.

I look forward to reading your post!

I agree. I feel there is a far leap between saying: I do not feel Dalinar was redeemed by his actions and no longer enjoy the character versus Dalinar cannot be redeemed by his actions, and Brandon messed up because of it.

I mentioned that in my post. I was coming from the perspective of Jasnah. Trying to show the why of what she does and says. I felt arguing the ethics of what occurred would prevent that, as in prior discussions with those scenes, for some people simply mentioning the possibility means advocating it, and following through. I felt that was reductionist, and disregards the character, her personality, and her motivations. So I thought it was better not to discuss it at all. However if you would like to, feel free to comment on that thread and I will respond there. What is great about it (to me), is I have all the quotes right there readily available. So if you wanted to say something, you could literally copy paste, and go "the book says this. this line is what made me think that". And then I can, taking the same quote point to this spot or that spot, and say why I disagree, or agree. So please feel free to post in the thread. I feel a large part of the problem with Jasnah for people, is they go off of recollection with these charged scenes, and do not remember things entirely accurately. So with the quotes present, that is no longer an issue. Or at least that is what I believe.

That would put things to rest. Though to add that what Glys said was predictive (as in seeing the future, not saying he just felt it), is because exactly what Glys said came to pass shortly after Glys said: "It will be .... great ..... vast ..... wonderful! It will be beautiful, Renarin! Look! so if we break down the sentence in order It will be ... great .... vast .... wonderful! Shortly after Renarin feels the well blossoming inside of him. Feeling awesome overwhelming strength enough that he wanted to dance. He then slowed at a gap in the wall, and looked through It will be beautiful, Renarin! Look! Looking as Glys told him to prior and seeing the column of light. Yet Glys stated both those events before Renarin felt them. Glys was in Renarin's heart, so there was no distance disparity with them. So had what Glys said not been predictive of an event that had not happened yet, then what should have happened (to me) is: Renarin feels the blossoming well. "Renarin, it is great.... vast.... wonderful!". Renarin walks pass the gap in the wall, and Glys said "It is beautiful Renarin! Look!" and Renarin would then turn and notice what Glys did. But that is not what happened. This is what happened: "It will be .... great ..... vast ..... wonderful! It will be beautiful, Renarin! Look! Then Renarin felt the surge. Then Renarin walks a bit up to the gap, and sees the column of light. Glys stated two events, that had not occurred yet, that then occurred shortly after. To me it is the difference between me saying "You will feel happy. You will see a bird fly by, and it will be beautiful." Then you feel happy, and see a bird fly by that is beautiful. Versus you smiling and I say "You are happy", then a bird flies by and I say "look a bird. it is beautiful".

I could dig up the WoB but didn't Sanderson say Part of using stormlight is not just for surges, but also for healing. But further from that, Szeth does use more surges, more often, seemingly on less stormlight gradually over time. It is not just the healing. When I did that little experiment years ago, I tried to keep track of every time Szeth breathed in stormlight and what abilities he used before running out of stormlight. Now that is far from an exact science because the type of gemstone, the size of gemstone, and how infused the gemstones were was not stated but it still gave a picture that over the course of Way of Kings into Words of Radiance, Szeth was surgebinding faster, more frequently, and more varied. Now it could also be due to how much stormlight he held, but on two to three separate occasions he mentions about feeling filled to the brim with stormlight so much it was bursting from his skin, and each of those situations seemed he was able to do more than the prior scene filled to the brim. This is far from concrete but I do feel it is enough that it is noticeable. So to answer this question after my above response, I believe his savantism is efficiency (though to clarify, I am saying he is on his way to becoming a savant. he is not there yet). He gets more healing, and surge uses per amount of stormlight than before. The quote I beleive you are referring to, which you mentioned earlier is this? Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can. He is saying the bond with the honorblade is not as deep as the bond with a spren, so the stormlight is not as efficient. I am saying Szeth was on his way to becoming a savant (not one yet), which let him be slightly more efficient in stormlight use regarding the honorblade. Radiants would still be more efficient, and that is why when he gained a nahel bond, it is not noticeable. I am struggling to think of a proper analogy to illustrate. Actually I just thought of one! My friend grew up working in the local town garage his father worked at. He is a bit of a gear head as a hobby. He has a dodge charger that he tweaked to get it to go over the limits of what the computer allows because it would blow the engine. Because he knows what he is doing, he was also able to tweak some other parts so the engine would not blow going those speeds. So he is getting a little bit more out of the car than someone like me, without the know how (or near savantism) would get. But if he then hopped into a formula 1 race car, without making all those little tweaks, he will still go faster, and get more out of that race car than from that dodge charger, because the formula race car is built that way from the start, while the dodge charger he had to alter just to get that little bit more out of it. So what I am saying is that Szeth got a little bit more out of the honorblade, but he is not a savant yet, and being a radiant would still be more efficient. I understand that this might be too far fetched for you, and I respect that. But that is the line of reasoning I have at least. There may be some confusion. The scenes I referenced did not involve a shardblade wound to Szeth. In Way of Kings Dalinar and Kaladin stabbed him with normal spears, and Adolin saw him healing from it before his eyes. In Words of Radiance when Szeth was trying to kill Dalinar, it was a group of mundane people attacking and stabbing him, that he healed from. Then Kaladin full of stormlight shows up. So both instances are wounds from mundane weapons, not shardblade/sprenblade I can respect that, but as I said above, the scenes were wounds from mundane weapons, not shard weapons. So the information does not contradict what we know from WoB. WoB is that an honorblade cannot heal shard wounds. I am speaking of accelerated healing from mundane wounds, and increased efficiency in stormlight to surge use for an honorblade.

As you mentioned with Kelsier, Savantism seems more a spectrum, where you could be on your way towards it, not be it yet but still exhibit some traits If Szeth was on his way to savantism, allowing him to get a little more out of stormlight than when he first had the honorblade, how would we know now that he has a nahel bond which would be even more stormlight efficient?

Define "quite a bit". She runs up 10 feet? That is enough? Seriously? I am going to jump to the end of this and just say agree to disagree because I can see no way based on the information we have been given that Jasnah should gain it earlier than Renarin. The time line to me is clearly delineated. Jasnah took these actions, then Glys says: "It will be ..... great .... vast .... wonderful!", "It will be beautiful, Renarin! Look! Key words will be. As in has not taken place yet. Glys says that after she did all those soulcastings. The merging had not taken place yet from their perspective. Then Renarin feels the well blossom. Also they started with running hand in hand when they reached the area. Then she ran up to the soldiers, so he wasn't lagging behind for awhile.

They were side by side. What mechanic or reason would be that she would have been affected prior to him? Especially when there is enough time for her to do all those actions, and then he felt it.

No problem. It was added in via an edit prior to you subsequently posting, but your page could have reflected the original post, which might be why you didn't see it originally.

The prior post I made includes a WoB that states Radiant soulcaster savantism manifests differently due to the help of the spren, in so far as you would not be losing limbs to smoke and such.

For reference, this is the scene I am referring to. She accomplishes all this before Renarin feels the surge from Dalinar uniting the three realms Oathbringer page 1138 Jasnah ducked the weapon, then shoved her hand against him, throwing him backwards. he crystallized in the air, slamming into the next man, who caught the transformation like a disease. He slammed into another man, who caught the transformation like a disease. He slammed into another man, knocking him back, as if the full force of Jasnah's shove had transferred to him. he crystallized a moment later. The sword vanished as she slapped her hand into the wall of a building behind her, and that wall puffed away into smoke, causing the roof to crash down, blocking the alley between buildings, where other soldiers had been approaching. She swept her hand upward, and air coalesced into stone, forming steps that she took - barely breaking her stride - to climb to the rooftop of the next building Renarin gaped. That - How - It will be....great....vast....wonderful! Glys said from within Renarin's heart. it will be beautiful, Renarin! Look! A well blossomed inside of him. Power like he'd never before felt, and awesome, overwhelming strength. Stormlight unending. A source of it so vast, he was stunned

If you pay close attention to the same moment, but from Renarin's PoV, Jasnah soulcasts multiple things in succession, and even soulcasts steps while running up them, then Renarin feels the surge from Dalinar bringing the realms together. So Jasnah is very skilled in soulcasting through many years of practice and focus. Being a radiant with a spren helps with the savantism not being as drastic, but it can still occur. Questioner 1 Do all Soulcasters risk turning into the element or is it only those using the device? Brandon Sanderson All Soulcasters have an affinity but the ones using the device are locked down much more than the Soulcasters who are Knights Radiant. Questioner 1 So they are protected from being turned into-- Brandon Sanderson Oh no they-- I wouldn't say protected... *clarificaiton* Protected is the wrong term but that event, the savanthood and how it affects them and things like that is much less pronounced if you are a [Knight]. Questioner 1 Or is that counteracted by the healing as well? Brandon Sanderson Healing doesn't have to do with it because-- in cosmere terms there's nothing wrong with your body, your spirit is actually drifting, and so it's not hurting you physically by what's happening with the magics. So it's not the healing but if you have an active bond with a spren it takes a little different path. Let's just say, in simple terms-- Questioner 1 You are not losing body parts to smoke. Brandon Sanderson Yes, you are not using body parts to smoke. Questioner 1 What timeframe does it happen for the normal Soulcasters then? Brandon Sanderson For normal Soulcasters? It takes-- I mean, you've seen it happening in the books. We are talking [about] a process of years even decades, depending on the person. It happens to some-- Questioner 2 Depending on how often they Soulcast? Brandon Sanderson It depends on how often they Soulcast, and it depends on the person. Oathbringer Leeds signing (Dec. 1, 2017)

No problem. Thank you for clarifying. Its a shame that she tends to get a bad rep, and it makes me all the more excited to read her book when the back five comes.

Two things: 1. A long while back, being curious about stormlight efficacy, I attempted to go based on how often Szeth pulled in stormlight and used his abilities. This would not come to any concrete conclusions because the descriptors were frequently vague, but I felt it would be worth trying to get an idea. An unintended consequence was realizing over the course of the book, Szeth's stormlight usage got better. There are other quotes where earlier in the book it took longer to heal from broken bones, or injuries, that later in the book, or subsequent books he healed faster. I will need to dig to pull up the old thread so I will not have to pull up every quote again, but it was stark enough to be remarked on. the quote referenced earlier: Way of Kings Page 33 Stormlight healing was far from instantaneous. It would be hours before he recovered Words of Radiance page 374 He thrust his spear alongside that of the Blackthorn in an attempt to hit the assassin. The man didn't dodge. Both spears struck flesh, Dalinar's in the shoulder, Kaladin's in the side. The assassin spun, sweeping his Shardblade through the spears and cutting them in half, as if he didn't even care about the wounds. The assassin stood poised and confident in the center of the corridor. Stormlight swirled in the lashes in his now reddened clothing, healing his flesh. Words of Radiance page 1024 The assassin ripped free from the press of bodies, trailing blood from a couple of wounds. Those wounds closed as Adolin watched, the blood stopping. 2. Before Honor died, the honorblades were fueled directly by honor, and the Heralds had access to levels of investiture no radiant could attain. Both are WoB. That is why Heralds were more powerful than the radiants. copied the WoB from the other thread to save time digging Steeldancer The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor? Brandon Sanderson Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence. Steeldancer Like Vin and Elend? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do. Steeldancer The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson RAFO Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017) WindRunner88 (paraphrased) So far during The Stormlight Archive we've seen that the spren bond appears to have some distinct advantages (i.e. armor, more efficient Stormlight consumption, access to a variety of weapons) over what Tanavast via the Oathpact provided the Heralds. With the exception of Nale, and the fact that the Heralds had no need for Stormlight, can you please tell me one way in which a Herald had a distinct advantage over a level 5 Radiant of their corresponding order? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Rebirth. *pause* The Heralds had access to raw levels of power that no Radiant could obtain.

This is a view of Jasnah I tend to take an issue with. It always feels to me that it is saying Dalinar and or Kaladin have to stand by Jasnah with a rolled up newspaper to smack the back of her head and go "no Jasnah, bad, bad, we don't do that!" all because of one scene between her and Kaladin that I feel is taken out of context and paints her in a more negative light than I think is warranted. To me Jasnah is very compassionate and empathic, but is guarded. I have gone in depth quote by quote through all three books to show that. I do not want to digress this thread, so if you are open to it, please read the below thread, and if you still feel the way you do, please comment on that thread because I would love to discuss it with the quotes on hand to back up any assertions regarding Jasnah.

Also there is a WoB (which I currently do not have the time to pull it up, I will try tomorrow) where Brandon states he didn't make the magic systems to all be equal. There are going to be times where one magic system can bulldoze another.

Sorry, to clarify, I am not saying he was seeing into the cognitive realm. I was saying he was able to realize that the bullet is not one thing, but multiple parts, and due to his savantism choose to affect them separately. So as Calderis was saying, Kaza could understand that the stone pillar was made of countless axi, and because she is a savant, choose to target them in order to make the desired shape.

True. Maybe it is a function of what you are attempting? One is trying to cut, or "sever" while the other is changing the composition, not the investiture? Brandon did say the investiture was still there, just it was no longer accessible. Meanwhile by trying to cut into the metal mind, you are also trying to "cut" the investiture? So its changing the nature via soulcasting the material into being inaccessible, versus trying to destroy it by cutting it? Dunno, still playing around with the concept in my mind. edit: i think i misread your post I know that a soulcaster cannot soulcast a shardblade versus a metal mind, because a shardblade is more invested than the bands of mourning. As to why it could block a shardblade, then its my above thoughts Questioner You've said that Shardblades can be made in other magic systems. So if it's not like a Shardblade from Roshar, what makes it a Shardblade? Brandon Sanderson The "Shard" refers to the heavy Investiture of a Shard of Adonalsium. Most of what you’ll see will see are the Roshar ones, but it is technically possible to make them out of the other magic systems. It's going to be a heavily invested magical weapon, is kind of how I would define it. Questioner So are the Bands [of Mourning] one? Brandon Sanderson I would not call them one, but they are close. They're not Invested enough. Calamity Austin signing (Feb. 25, 2016)

Ok, I understand better now, and I would agree with you if it was marasi, wax, jasnah, or kaza said that a fabrial soulcaster could soulcast a full metal mind. Because as you said, they would be limited in what they thought "full" was. But it's a WoB. The questioner asked about a full metal mind, and brandon said a normal soulcaster on roshar could do it. So I would term full to an author as fully full (for lack of a better way of saying it). So to me, that is saying a goldmind filled to the brim, which is to the limit of what even a compounder can do with a hunk of metal, can still be soulcasted by a fabrial

I reread your prior post and I just want to ask for some clarity in case there is something fundamental I was misunderstanding prior on the mechanics of compounding. I always thought that feruchemy is like having a large jug of water and you pour it into a water bottle for use. Because of the large jug is "limited" you can only fill so much of the water bottle at a time and only so many water bottles That compounding conversely is like filling up a water bottle from a hose. You can fill it up to the brim easily and fill up as many water bottles as you want. In both situations the water bottle still can hold the same amount and a water bottle filled to the brim slowly from the jug is the same as a water bottle filled to the brim quickly from the hose. You said the compounders metal minds are different and limitless. Do you mean they could fill that water bottle more than normal, or do you mean because they can refill it as many times as they want to the bring without issue? Because if it is because they could give better quality/more storage/greater investiture than normal, then I have been looking at this wrong all this time and could you show me where this is the case so I can correct my misunderstanding? If it is because they can fill it to the brim as many times as they want with no issue, then I go back to the WoB that state a fabrial soulcaster could soulcast a filled gold metal mind because they are used to pushing through the resistant investiture