Pathfinder

I think Urithiru is the main example of what the radiants could do in peace time. A building that size, with air pressure that does not fit where it is located, central heating, large farm land where it should not survive, (seemingly) televisions/communicators (the pane of glass), and so on.

She still had access to the standard metals and when she fought the koloss, she only used the standard metals, with the occasional duralumin. If you do not know how a gun functions, using a bow and arrow as a base would result in skewed and inaccurate results. Radiant shardplate can be summoned and unsummoned, while dead shardplate has to be put on piece by piece. Radiant shardplate can have the wielder's surges used through, while dead shardplate can not. Radiant shardplate glows with the glyphs of the knight, while dead shardplate does not. We do not know if the strength is affected as well or not. So to treat radiant shardplate the same as dead shardplate for the purposes of defensive capabilities, is inaccurate. Soulcasting produces food out of anything, and regrowth accelerates crop growth. The attack comes during the day, with the sun at their backs. Tineyes of both allomantic and feruchemical will fry their eyes trying to look at the sun. The only stormlight required for the boulders is to negate its own weight, which means a lashing pointed upwards at half the weight of the boulder, making it weightless. Then the lashing can be ended when it is time to drop. This is now the third time. Amaram uses division with he fights Kaladin. He engulfs the air in flame. It is not soulcasting because everytime Jasnah used fire, she first soulcasted a sheet of oil, and then ignited it. The only other time she changed something to flame, was a person. Shortly after Amaram engulfed the air in flame, his foot steps left burn marks. That was division, at range. The definition of neutral means "not helping or supporting either side of a conflict". If the planet benefited either side in a manner that the other side could not benefit from, then by definition the planet is not neutral. This is an argument I will not continue to have. I referenced plenty of WoB, and in book quotes. If that is not enough for you, then there is no point discussing it because we will just not agree on the numbers period. Can you show me where in the books does it say the bondsmiths cannot duplicate that? Each time Dalinar had touched someone and spoke a language, they were surprised by his fluency. If there was an issue with accents, slang, etc, then they would not be able to use Dalinar to translate the dawnchant. He is a literal walking talking rosetta stone. There is nothing magical about what Wayne can do. Pattern can break codes, unlock locks, and perfectly mimic whatever someone says with tone and inflection. It occurs exactly that way in the book. We have a whole scene with Shallan with her learning accents over the course of her trip. And I am sorry, but if mundane spies on earth can do it without any magic, I do not see how with the aid of magic, it is impossible for Rosharans. It should be possible in both directions. Both Scadrians and Rosharans, without a lick of magic should be able to accomplish it. Already brought up the steel dust. If that does not work for you, then I guess to each their own. stormlight has been shown to increase speed, durability, and balance. Multiple times when Kaladin and Shallan have walked next to people without stormlight, the people have complained how it isn't fair how they do such things effortlessly. As I have shown above, division can be employed at range. Soulcasting can be employed at range. Cohesion can be done at range (the stoneward touched the foot of the mountain, and a ripple went up fully to the top, creating steps all the way up for him to climb). Illusions can be done at range. WoB say lightweavers can create lasers. Radiants have a whole plethora of things they can do at range. So you comment about the bondsmith ability multiple times. As I am trying to catch up with everyones post, I may end up repeating myself, or people may have already said what I am about to say. Dalinar augmented Shallan separately much earlier in the book. By the view of Navani, Dalinar created the pillar (uniting the realms), As to doing so without a perpendicularity, the book says it itself: Oathbringer page 1211 "Kaladin flew across the churning ocean. Dalinar had been able to summon the strength to overcharge him with stormlight, though it was obviously exhausting to do so." No mention of the perpendicularity. Kaladin put a lashing on a pebble just enough to give it weightlessness and let it go, the screamers came right for that stone. The screamers detect conjoined fabrials for span reeds, which can be infused and left alone for extended periods of time for someone to respond. Shallan on the other hand could use as many illusions as she wanted, regardless the size, and not a screamer popped up. She used illusions on all of them. She created the illusion of "swift spren". She created illusions all over the place when she robbed the woman of food. And not once did a screamer come. Roshar also has siege weaponry, It is mentioned multiple times in Oathbringer. As I said, why can't a person just have an illusion over them changing skin tone and color of eyes? Rosharans aren't so utterly alien. Worldhoppers just get to be assumed are shin. epicanthic folds, light eyes, and skin tone can all be changed easily with illusions. Gave the example of division being used three times. Dalinar when he went to the nightwatcher saw forests and swamps. When Dalinar was going to attack an enemy in a flashback he mentions amphibious assaults going through swamps, and then swimming through a lake to hit the enemy. Again the definition of neutral is it does not benefit either side. The minute it benefits either side, the planet is no longer neutral. I disagree. I think the book and WoB are explicit. But to each their own. Don't need to impersonate anyone. An army is large enough that not everyone will be always accounted for. Again, these things are accomplished on our planet all the time without magic. Why is it suddenly so impossible for the Rosharans? Shallan does exactly that in the novels. She lowers her voice, changes her eyes, puts on a hat, and has a satchel and says she is a messenger. Done. Simply have the spren speak for you. Pattern would memorize it. Or pick a lightweaver with their mnemonic abilities, but a singer instead of an artist. They are renown for the arts that includes acting, singing, and etc. Just because Shallan's way of memorizing focuses on drawing, does not mean that is the only way the memorize. You are misunderstanding. For instance, have Dalinar say "I went through the bough though I could not stop to know how I would go." Then touch the captive, and repeat that sentence. Do that for multiple sentences that cover multiple tenses and inflections. The lightweaver with their mnemonic ability to memorize, or even just their spren to listen to the pattern, and you are set. We see repeatedly throughout the novels from multiple perspectives that the steel line and iron line are identical. Spren blade changes form. Can be an ax. Can be a dagger. Can be a short sword. Can be a shield As shown in the books, there are military rations. They know how to preserve soulcast food. The point that favors the Alethi is that they can make their food on the go, they do not have to carry large supplies with them, or have long wagon trains. The scadrians will have to carry all that canned food, and that food will run out, while rosharans can continue to produce and farm anywhere. No matter how inhospitable the landscape, regrowth will get you food growing. Scadrians cannot claim the same with their power sytem. The supercharge lasts as long as the radiants use the stormlight. It is not a continual effect. It is an area that everything that can hold stormlight is then filled with stormlight, and then the effect ends. So when running low, put all the gemstones, and radiants near a bondsmith (which near is a rather large area which I will point out later with the map of thaylenah), and everyone is filled up with stormlight. Then later do it again with another bondsmith so the first can rest even though the first could do it agian. Then later use the third. Then later do the first and so on. Not the lightweavers. When they use their illusions they do not glow. Shallan did so when she infiltrated the insane asylum In Dalinar's vision, fighting back to back with two radiants, at night, there was no mention of seeing problems. They have detection fabrials as shown with Rysn. They have detection fabrials as shown with Rysn. They have the cryptic spren that break codes all the time. They love them. Yes an illusionist is from a tineye. The tineye would probably be the easiest to fool. Roshar has shown to have crossbows. They do not need canned food as they can produce and farm anywhere. I disagree. I agree I agree. I agree That's a point. A lightweaver could go in, and soulcast the metals to poisonous percentages, and then slip out. Cohesion cannot be used on people (WoB). Cohesion works in a wave that ripples out (Dalinar's vision). Copper clouds have not prevented powers from being used, only prevented the tell tale rhythm of them being used. Copper clouds only prevent the burner from being effected by emotional allomancy (WoB). Again, we disagree on the numbers. I do not think there will be the number of metal born you posit. All of which Rosharans can do as well. Again disagree on the number of metalborn. The only thing we saw was canning. There weren't factories with assembly lines anywhere. Detector fabrials that will warn when the enemy is approaching can be the Rosharan version of seekers and tineyes. Spren that do not need to sleep will as well. You cannot have a high rate of loss in any battle. So too is Rosharan. We see as much in Dalinar's visions, both with the midnight essences, as well as when the thunderclast pops up. We are? Please provide the WoB showing this. As I have mentioned earlier, there are mutliple biomes on roshar as well. We know Bondsmiths can augment radiant powers in unique ways from order to order. I will add of the nobles we meet, none of them were mistborn except Shan. The entire trilogy only shows 6 mistborn, in the entire 100 million population. True I agree. Not to mention I do not know why Roshar could not have an infrastructure as well. Don't forget teleporting and transferring to the cognitive realm. I agree I agree. I would say plate is even stronger. I agree. Though she would not be able to alter atium. I agree With elsecallers, lightweavers, willshapers, and stonewards, a fortification to rival anything seen could go up in a few hours. So 1 in a thousand is slightly off from 1 in two thousand. Thank you for posting that. Though this will work both for and against me, I feel compelled to point out that Khriss and the Ars Arcanum have been wrong before, and Sanderson has said the scientists in the novels can and will be wrong. They do not. They have increased speed, dexterity, endurance, and healing. WoB confirms it is possible to soulcast dead shardplate. It is also possible to soulcast atium. Both just require a lot of stormlight. More than is feasible. However as earlier discussed, a fabrial soulcaster can soulcast a full metal mind. The bands of mourning are not as invested as a shardblade. All stated and supported by WoB that I posted earlier in this thread. And we still disagree on spotting illusionists. I disagree, and have referenced the book as well. Do you have references showing how far the stormlight is used? The lord ruler would win the combat on his own. These were responses regarding other aspects. Stormlight efficiency increases the higher in oath you are. The perpendicularity did not function the way you argue. It was not a continuous effect. Dalinar reunited the realms. It took time for the realms to separate. The super charge was a separate event that occurred and then ended. The gemstones and radiants were charged, and then it stopped. As stormlight was used, it did not suddenly refill, yet the realms were still together. it would be terrible armor for scadrial for the same reason it would be terrible for rosharans. A blade hitting a brittle metal is still a blade hitting a brittle metal. The aluminum will break.( WoB) No mention of the spiritual realm. No mention of the effect persisting. No mention of continual stormlight renewal. Span reeds are also detected by the screamers while illusions are not. You cannot lash through dead plate, or someone else's plate, but you can through your own radiant plate. I very much disagree due to the numbers I presented earlier. So while the lord ruler is sped up and smashing radiants, he is also command the koloss? Could the zinc mental speed allow for that? Sure! But how would the koloss make sense of such accelerated commands? They are not up to that speed. it would be gibberish to them. Where was the assembly line on Scadrial. Please reference the book. Cohesion can affect anything not living. Not purely visually as i mentioned with detector fabrials. depends on the oath level of the radiant. those anchors can be grabbed, soulcasted, or just plain and simple destroyed with division. Not shardblades and shardplate. it is too invested. Remember, Wax could not detect the bands of mourning even flaring his metal. WoB say shardblades are more invested than the bands of mourning. not against radiants. Roshar does not need naval ships as they can fly over the water. They are too heavily invested to be affected. If you mean the augmentation regarding Shallan, I am not sure we can say that will always only effect on a one to one ratio. It was only ever used one to one, but we know the stormlight charging is an area of effect. It filled a large area. Please check the map of Thaylenah. I tried to post it but I had some trouble. I agree that the perp and the stormlight are separate effects. I agree. I agree. I agree. Personally I think just soulcasting the mundane metal supplies to poisonous percentages would do a whole lot of damage. I agree. Thing is, it looks like we disagree what the book says. So like the metalborn number, it does not seem like this is something that we can come to a consensus on. Stanlemon is saying they are the same thing. That is the reason for the butting heads. At this point I do not see an accommodation occurring on this topic. We disagree on that. I agree. I agree. Yes, lets speak of elsecalling. Teleporting a military force into an area unguarded, doing tons of damage, and teleporting out. The stormlight infusion filled out the entire market, coast, and low ward of Thaylenah. That is not just three radiants. I disagree. The entire area, that was filled with gemstones from the reserve were charged. That was what the radiants were drawing upon later in the battle. Navani saw the gemstones get charged. As probably mentioned later, the swords are still heavy (as mentioned by Moash), they are just lighter than one would expect for a sword that size. The frequency of surgebinding, and what Kaladin can accomplish with each subsequent oath shows a power boost and increase in stormlight usage. Kaladin is flying longer, on less than he did at the start of the series. I agree. I agree, and have been attempting to do the same. Which I do appreciate that. I agree. Even if the blade is as light as you claim, which I disagree, you still have the increased strength from plate behind it. So Dalinar opened a perpendicularity and brought together the three realms again at Urithiru briefly for one person? Regrowth also accelerates growth of plants. Throw some seeds down. Grown them to full. Take the seeds, and do it again. Now you have full farm lands in a day. Harvest those crops, and then let it grow naturally from then on. I agree I agree. As we see with the Lopen, the severity of Kaladin, Szeth, and Shallan is not indicative of all members of the orders. As you said. They used simple tactics. As per WoB, jasnah did not need to destroy the gemstone. she did it for Shallan's benefit. A radiant soulcaster can do far more than a fabrial, also per WoB. Controlling a koloss does not mean infusing them with investiture, and does not convince themselves not to change. Finally as I said earlier, metalminds that are full can be soulcasted. spikes are invested less than metal minds. koloss and their spikes can be soulcasted. To me, with the lord ruler but no heralds, Scadrial wins. Without the lord ruler I believe Roshar wins as an aside, it is clear a lot of us disagree on a lot of fundamental pieces of information in various ways. not really sure how an accommodation can be reached.

Just so I am on the same page. Even though the very first thing you posted in this thread was that Dalinar is irredeemable, full stop, then you are not stating it as fact. Even though the title of the thread you started states "moral miscalculations of mr sanderson in oathbringer" you are not stating this has anything to do with morality, and even though you stated again the issues you have with the book are objective, you feel I have misrepresented you. Well those three problems in my opinion are not objective, and are not facts. So my personal point still stands. I wish you luck with your theory.

Maybe if I bullet point it: 1. Quoted your first post where you stated Dalinar is irredeemable. Full stop. 2. Quoted you reiterating your arguments where you said that even if we assume Dalinar did redeem himself, which as per your original post, you stated he did not: a. He did nothing to redeem himself. Full stop. b. Redemption arcs do not work. Full stop. c. The reader is required to ignore the war crime. Full stop 3. You then stated that those three problems, "are not your personal opinion, they are problems of how Brandon has structured his story" So, if something is not being stated as an: 1. opinion: 2. hypothesis 3. conjecture Then it is being stated as fact. Otherwise could you term what you stated? Because I can find no other definition for it at this time. Hopefully that clarifies things. edit: also not to nitpick, but you literally stated it is not an opinion. Google or anywhere what the opposite of opinion is, and it comes up as fact. One is personal and subjective, the other is objective.

@Parallax To save time of me re-typing the entire post, I have copy pasted it below I am not sure how these quotes were taken out of context: I have quoted you word for word. Don't really see how that is misrepresenting your stance. You are presenting absolutes. Then stating that because the book does not match your absolutes, they are objective problems that Brandon messed up. You can totally not like the novel. To each their own. But the fact that we disagree on interpreting the book says to me it is a discussion point, and means how Brandon wrote it was successful. The objective fact that I, as well as many others, can disagree with you on a wide range of topics you brought up, from minor to fundamental, for very well reasoned reasons, speaks to it being an opinion. Does not mean you are wrong to dislike it, nor does it mean I am wrong to enjoy it. But just because you did not enjoy it, does not make it objectively bad and requiring re-writing. That was my point. You have stated what you deem is wrong with Sanderson's novels. You have stated what you deem is the way for Sanderson to fix it. Unfortunately I personally do not see either occurring. The solutions you listed were: 1. Sanderson rewrite the book. He struggled with deciding to alter a few sentences of the end of Words of Radiance. I highly doubt Sanderson would rewrite an entire book. 2. Have a survivor of Rathalas confront Dalinar. It is continually hammered home that there were no survivors. Also of all times a survivor popping up now? Personally, it makes no sense. But at the end of the day, both those points are my opinion. I personally highly doubt either of those will occur. But you are free to hope and desire those changes. Edited 4 hours ago by Pathfinder

It was the first post that started this entire thread. I have quoted you below (highlighting for Honorless)

I have tagged the main moderator I can recall off the top of my head for you so you may discuss with them what steps you feel should be taken with this thread @Chaos

Maybe I am misunderstanding your post, but I do not see anyone being hostile towards Parallax that would warrant banning. As per the rules of the site, if you feel any posts were inflammatory or attacking, you should report the post, and let the Mods handle it. They are the best suited to decide and act.

No problem. As to the bold or red in texts, I use that for emphasis to call attention to something because I was given to understand caps was shouting. The forum rules does not mention bolding being an issue, so I will continue to do so to call attention to certain points. But please understand my intention is not for shouting. I was highlighting what I felt was the pertinent portions of Parallax's quotes. I could change the background color, so I could always try that so it would be highlighting instead of bolding.

I agree. It is showing the threads that hold the characters together, and show this is their story.

Unless you are using that same rationale to mean that Kaladin and Shallan should end up together, because Syl transformed into Shallan on the beach, before Kaladin even met her, I do not personally think it means that.

I am not sure how these quotes were taken out of context: I have quoted you word for word. Don't really see how that is misrepresenting your stance. You are presenting absolutes. Then stating that because the book does not match your absolutes, they are objective problems that Brandon messed up. You can totally not like the novel. To each their own. But the fact that we disagree on interpreting the book says to me it is a discussion point, and means how Brandon wrote it was successful. The objective fact that I, as well as many others, can disagree with you on a wide range of topics you brought up, from minor to fundamental, for very well reasoned reasons, speaks to it being an opinion. Does not mean you are wrong to dislike it, nor does it mean I am wrong to enjoy it. But just because you did not enjoy it, does not make it objectively bad and requiring re-writing. That was my point. You have stated what you deem is wrong with Sanderson's novels. You have stated what you deem is the way for Sanderson to fix it. Unfortunately I personally do not see either occurring. The solutions you listed were: 1. Sanderson rewrite the book. He struggled with deciding to alter a few sentences of the end of Words of Radiance. I highly doubt Sanderson would rewrite an entire book. 2. Have a survivor of Rathalas confront Dalinar. It is continually hammered home that there were no survivors. Also of all times a survivor popping up now? Personally, it makes no sense. But at the end of the day, both those points are my opinion. I personally highly doubt either of those will occur. But you are free to hope and desire those changes.

That still is a far far cry from 100 million troops to draw upon and a mistborn without atium was able to kill a whole lot of them. Dead shardplate. As discussed with Calderis, we do not know the resistance of radiant shardplate Still a far far cry from 100 million as earlier assumed. I already gave examples of low stormlight use that would take out large numbers and has been shown to work in the books. Windrunners fly over with boulders and drop them. Siege boulders killed the koloss easily. Koloss when enraged attack anyone, including their own allies. A lightweaver doing like shallan with illusions interspersed among the soldiers (no where near as much as shallan did) could occupy them while the boulders crush them. Again skybreakers can use division at range It is unknown how copper clouds are seen in the cognitive realm The OP said it was a neutral planet. Why is the assumption that a neutral planet would unfairly benefit the scadrians. If anything due to the highstorms and constant season changing, rosharans are used to far more hostile landscapes. As per the numbers I backed up with WoB, there would be far fewer coin shots than you give credit. Unless you are in calderis's and rshara's camp that disagree with those WoB. If that is the case then I do not see the point of further discussing the numbers as there is nothing to discuss Again you do not know the extent of what light weaving can and cannot accomplish. That still does not cover my response as to why a person cannot just go with an illusion to disguise their features. And language is not an issue as I have already said prior and will repeat again below Dalinar speaks the language fluently due to touching the person that speaks the language. Pattern mimics speaks perfectly. No learning required. It heard, it repeated. All that would be necessary is to have the captive speak certain phrases like what wayne did. Get the pronouncian of certain sounds. It is no where near as hard as you present. That makes no sense. So being consistent showing the metal lines you should be showing is an imposter? Again this makes no sense Wow ok. Well unfortunately I am my phone so I was only able to bullet point the points I have already made that you did not read which is why you said I responded badly. Next time I'll be on the computer so I can quote myself so you can read my comments a second time before you say I am doing so badly. That is demonstrably false. Unless every single one has atium, radiants are stronger, faster, more durable and have a larger ability variety to draw upon This is also demonstrably false. Mistings, mistborn, and feruchemists run out of metals. They still need to run and get more. Bondsmiths can recharge and super charge radiants. OP said there would be three of them. So radiants would not get depleted as fast as you posit. You mean stealth assassination? Personally I would take an illusionist that can hide from detectors with a magic blade that can be summoned and kill without spilling blood and cause a one hit kill that cannot be blocked unless there are very specific circumstances. As I mentioned multiple times now, illusions dont activate the screamers at kholinar that detect active use of investiture like kaladins gravitation Era 1 as has been hammered repeatedly all over this thread had soldiers with bows and arrows and swords. No guns. Blue lines if the steel isnt heightened to bands of mourning levels just show you trace elements of metal in the body. It worked on the fused. That is a good question though personally I do not think it accomplishes the extent that you theorize

Assuming all fused were dead by that point. We still do not know what terms the "victory" that causes the heralds to then transition back to Braize. The Unmade are still around even after Taln held to the Oathpact. So we do not know if a herald going back, suddenly pulls all fused hanging out back to Braize at once, or they wait till they kill every single Fused, or something else happens which terms "win" and then they go back. So my point is we do not know who or what was still hanging out among the forms of power Ok this is going on the premise that the illusion is a disguise of an actual person. Why couldn't they carry weapons and body armor with them? Just use illusion to change the face like Shallan and Veil does? but that what? This was going on the premise of capturing a scadrian. Then as I said, treat the bondsmith as a rosetta stone. Take sentences that include a wide range of words and inflections. Then tell the bondsmith after touching the scadrian to say them. Write out the result. You now have a rule brick to learn what words means what to learn scadrian. Illumination covers sound too. Pattern mimicked the voice's tone and everything. So it is certainly possible. I thought the point was to cause metal lines so as to make the illusion seem real? What I understood from you and calderis is that if you have an illusion you can put your hand through, then steel sight would not pick up the train metals in an illusion, and see right through it. i was saying give the illusion some substance, and mix in some metal dust, and now it registers to the steel sight. Otherwise I am confused by what you are saying. I responded to each. If we account for that, then same stands for scadrians. same stands for scadrians. which raises the point that 100 percent of the 100 million population that is referenced not only has a various age group that would limit combatants, but also a significantly large chunk were skaa peasantry forbidden to fight. So that reduces the numbers even further. You are right. There would only be mistings, a very small number of mistborn, an extremely small number of feruchemists, a small number of inquistors, and the lord ruler. The lord ruler would still win it though if heralds are excluded.

Not everyone wears a helmet. Inquisitors can't lol. Here is a question, does invested metal show up in steel sight? Since it cannot be affected by it. So the spikes in an inquistors head potentially wouldn't show. So you could theoretically have an illusion of an inquisitor walk into camp. Btw, also why can't their be illusions like Shallans? Where it just covers the first layer, making subtle differences? Body would still register to steel sight. Languages can be learned on both sides. A bondsmith just has to touch a scadrian and then work like dalinar did with the visions. Tell someone what sentence he is going to say in rosharan, then touch a scandrian, and repeat the sentence. Do that enough times, and you will have the language cracked. I already replied to this. metal dust mixed in the illusion would give off the metal lines. We do not know the extent of how solid a lightweaver can make an illusion, but it does hint at pretty solid. Where I get confused is one second you are saying they are walking in pretending to be someone, then the next you are saying they are going in invisible? True. Though I consider a minor light eyes having access to aluminum as jewelry speaks that it would be on at least some Rosharans. So there is a good chance the nature could be discovered. But as you said, there is a whole lot we do not know regarding aluminum and Roshar. See my response to Rshara. I pulled up the quote. It was one sustained conflict that lasted hours. Then he was completely drained. As in no more. There were still Koloss coming in. He was about to die, when Vin showed up. So during a sustained conflict, he ran out. If either side then retreated, to then attack the next day, he went from years of storage, to hours. Now how long will he last? Amaram used division at range. Right, every option (her making it herself, her finding a way to compound it, or her taking what the prior person had) is all theories that have not been confirmed. It doesn't state the size of the Koloss, and says "nearly its own size" "The lead Koloss turned to find himself facing a creature nearly his own size. " And if you scramble an item in the brain that isn't healing, it will kill you normally. But the spot you have to get, and keep it in to impede function is small. Usually the trauma of it entering and exiting is enough to kill someone outright. Stormlight healing has no issue with that. See my response to Rshara. If heralds are not a thing because they were not "around" at the time, then inquistor compounders should not be a thing because as per the book and WoB, the Lord Ruler did not have them be "a thing" But once again, if the heralds cannot be a thing, because they were not a thing at the time, even though they were present, then neither can the lord ruler add to the scenario. Inquistors could not compound when the lord ruler was around, so for this scenario they should not compound. Fairs fair. We also do not know how steel sight interacts with illusions period. In this case we are both shooting in the dark. Which is why as I said, Scarial would win because the scenario says the heralds are not a thing. But then again neither are inquistor compounders. provide with voidlight yes. You do not know what forms of power was fueled. Right. we do not know the composition of what was still fighting them. It was called false because no odium to fuel them. Unless my recollection is faulty, in which case I apologize, I do not recall it saying no fused. We do know there is most definitely a difference. What that difference is, remains to be seen. Found this quote on my phone, but do not have the time to pull it up to link it on the computer. I will type as much reference info as possible Words of Radiance Philadelpiha signing March 21 2014 Questioner Is there a difference between the shardplate of the radiants from the visions of the past and the current plate brandon yes They were formed to fight a global threat. All radiants get a shardblade, which is mimicking the honorblades, which were created to fight in a war. Right, you have people who chose to be scholars and diplomats, in a situation where that was possible or an option. In this situation, where is the call for a scholar? Where for a diplomat? The scenario is a battle between two sides, whoever wipes out the other wins. So a scholar can soulcast the air to fire to roast enemies and still be a scholar. And as already mentioned, she still ran out. Speed ferrings are exceedingly rare, as per WoB. Congrats the speed ferring used its speed to do that to 10 enemies before his or her speed runs out, and they are not useless. If used as a tactic, it could be very devastating, but there are tactics that the radiants could use that could be just as devastating.

Each of the Highprince armies fielded about 10,000 mentioned in the novels. 10 high princes is 100,000. Soldiers have been sent to the shattered plains for 6 years to maintain that number. There are still enough solders back at Alethkar to be thrown away on border disputes. That does not count the rest of the population of children to young to fight and elderly too old to fight which the 100 million for Scadrial includes. Finally that is for Alethkar only. If we were to divide Roshar up equally, Roshar makes up 1/6th of the continent. Unless you can provide me with more concrete numbers that dispute that WoB and show Roshar to be less populated than Scadrial, other than you feel it is too early and must be referring to the time period you assume, I will go with that estimate. The heralds were still very much on Roshar during that time. In prior posts both you and Calderis have stated they could not get out of the Roshar system, and we see the Heralds still having an effect on the world, so they were very much still a thing. So we must go exactly how the book says for some things, but then we can say this is likely or that is not likely for others? The Lord Ruler did not have compounders as of Era 1. If the Heralds cannot come to play because they were not actively fighting on Roshar, than neither can the compounders that were not made in Era 1 by the Lord Ruler. Fairs fair.

The shardplate due to its native investment would protect the shardbearer and radiant from soothing and rioting. edit: having difficulty locating the WoB I am thinking of, so at this stage this might be incorrect. True regarding spren, though elsecallers or lightweavers touching the soulflame would get an impression of the person as we have seen in the books. So they could touch the flame to confirm. We have confirmation via WoB that Kaladin's bond with Syl helped insulate him from the thrill. We also have WoB that soothers and rioters would have trouble pushing through the investiture envelop that a shardplate provides. If you will like and give me some time, I can pull up both WoB for you. This I agree with. I do not know how radiant plate will fair, but we do know that bullets fired from guns, or coinshots repeatedly to the same place can shatter dead shardplate. Those Koloss trapped are still taken out of the fight though which I do not think is without consequence. This maneurverbility on flight relies on metal to push and pull on. Unless they use a duralumin push or pull everytime in order to use the radiant armor/shardblade to push and pull off of, if they are fighting on a plane, once in air they will need to reply on the metal of the general soldiers to re-position while the radiants would not. It is different in that the windrunners and skybreakers can choose any direction at any time, at any strength. For mistborn there is a peak to their push and pulls unless they use duralumin. Windrunners could fly over and drop boulders with increase gravitational pull down. The mistborn would dodge, but it would be devastating to the koloss and general infantry. We have already seen in the novels how devastating siege weapons can be on koloss. I agree, this is a huge advantage. I agree. The radiants would need a steady way to resupply, and would need further stormlight efficiency from higher level of oaths. Potentially the bondsmiths could recharge or super charge them during the fights which would push things in Roshar's favor. If you are going on that logic, then it should be pointed out that mistborn are only trained for assassination style combat, while all radiants are trained as a military organization for global war. Yes but unless you are a compounder, you will only have so much to draw upon before it runs out. Sazed had been storing for years and it lasted hours at the level he was drawing on. Wax had been storing weight constantly, and crushing the floor after the explosion nearly drained all his stores. He had to go to storing constantly again to even build up a bit. Good point. I believe it was pointed out that the OP said prior to the Recreance. The regular troops only had bronze age tech because of the continual desolations sending them back to that age due to the destruction. That is incorrect. Scadrial is the least populated planet that we have seen so far. Roshar is the second largest, with Sel being the most. wackyHair What's the population of the shardworld's we've seen so far (even in very general terms, like one's much bigger than the others or something)? Brandon Sanderson Scadrial is certainly the least populated of the major shard worlds. Then Nalthis, I'd guess, followed by Roshar, and finally Sel--which likely has the largest population. I would have to look closely to see which is bigger between those last two. Phantine Does a population of about 100 million during The Final Empire (with 1-2 million in Luthadel), and around 15 million during Alloy of Law (with about 5 million in Elendel) seem right? Brandon Sanderson Have to RAFO this for now, for reasons I can't explain without giving spoilers. Phantine How about as far as Elend/Wax knows, at the beginning of their respective series? Brandon Sanderson Then those numbers, if they're off, are at least close. faragorn Interesting that Sel has such a large population, given that the actual numbers of soldiers shown seem to be quite small. Brandon Sanderson Let's just say that Opelon has an inflated opinion of its own size in relation to the rest of the world. Footnote: The RAFO about the Scadrian population may be due to the existence of the Southerners, which had not been revealed as of this time. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015) Shallan had an aluminum necklace. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it was prior to the recreance? It does if it was before the recreance. Again if the timeline is prior to the recreance, then the heralds would still be a thing This is a logical fallacy I keep seeing pop up. We have not seen anywhere near the level of forces Odium could bring to bear. We have not see a fully oathed radiant in action. And we have not seen a herald in action while honor was alive to fuel their honorblades. So taking what a third oathed windrunner can do as the full extent is false. As is mentioned later, cohesion was referenced, which we do see used in that manner (the knight in the vision, and Amaram). Jasnah soulcasted an entire sheet of rock to oil to then ignite it. Now the next response is going to be "well that was when the realms were brought together by Dalinar!". It was stated there would be three bondsmiths. It is still murky how much of what Dalinar did was a bondsmith ability, or a function of bonding the cognitive shadow of tanavast. However we do know Dalinar can recharge spheres again, and can also augment radiant abilities. So all I am pointing out is the radiant options are not as limited as you posit. I would really love to learn how they made Urthiru. My theory is soulcasters soulcasted the rock, and stonewards shaped it. True atium burns quickly, but while used it is very effective. I do not think it would turn the tide by itself, but is a very powerful weapon for Scadrial I agree I agree I agree From what we have seen from the vision and Amaram, it does not take much to change rock to mud and then let it solidify. This is not accurate. The thunderclast made a breach in the wall that some of the troops got through. Shallan held off the majority of the soldiers with her illusions while Jasnah closed the breach, and then reinforcements arrived to finish off the troops within the walls. So Jasnah, Renarin, and Shallan kept the forces busy till more showed up. Kaladin was busy defending Dalinar, Dalinar was busy with the Thrill, and Szeth and Lift were busy with the King's drop. Developing non-radiant fabrials does seen to be new, but based on the visions, we know radiant fabrials were a thing and were definitely used. Do you have WoB or in book sources that the Thrill does not effect Darkeyes? This is the first I am hearing of it. That was the arguments pushed forward earlier in this thread already. That the Radiants would have a more limited supply than Scadrial because Scadrial can use any metal, while Roshar relies on stormlight. Though I would like to point out that there would be three bondsmiths that can reinfuse and augment the radiants. The windrunners fighting mistborn in flight yes would need to get close. The skybreakers with division on the other hand would not. Wax stores a large chunk of his weight at all times. When during a battle would a gold ferring be able to store almost all his or her health? A steel ferring all of his or her speed? Wax could still walk around and fight with a large chunk of his weight stored. That even helped him in many situations. How would someone being sickly due to storing health be beneficial and still be able to fight? How would someone moving extra slowly due to storing speed be beneficial and still be able to fight? The controller has to actively control them. Otherwise they do whatever they were told last, which usually involves pointing them in the direction of the enemy. Otherwise they just stand in place, like what happened with the siege weapons. Vin and Elend got distracted, so the koloss just stood in place while rocks rained down killing a large portion of them. Unless you mean this statement to include atium, I disagree. This is false True. Depends on the bondsmiths. True, though then I say it is not balanced by not allowing Roshar to have the heralds. Bondsmiths could handle this potentially The Knights Radiant was a military organization. Those that did not fight, were due to their own choice, not their powers. That is dead plate. We do not know with radiant plate. The closest we have seen is as Calderis mentioned, the midnight essence scratching it. But as we do not have a metric on the midnight essence's abilities, we do not know if their claws are especially sharp to do so, or would be like a standard mundane weapon. I agree. The Lord Ruler is the main issue here. I think if he was not included, Roshar would win. I agree. Right now we just do not know. Well this is where I agree a WoB is ambiguous. Jasnah states Shallan is not a knight radiant because she does not have her armor yet, which is at least 4th oath correct? We do not know if Jasnah's assertion is an accurate definition or not. If Brandon shared her definition, then those low thousands would be all radiant knights of at least 4th oath. However we do not know what he terms as a radiant, so we cannot say. However we can also say spren bond children, as we see with Shallan, and bond elderly as we see with Syl, so the radiant numbers would fall into the same issue as I mentioned with metal born. Some are going to be too young to fight, and some are going to be too old to fight. Though I would say the radiants would have a wider age range to draw upon than the metal born. Only pewter thugs and gold ferrings would potentially be able to fight younger than most, and older than most, while all orders get the same base boosts from stormlight being increased speed, slight increase in strength, endurance, and healing. So as we see with Lift, even though she is under age, she can do pretty well for herself with stormlight, and as we see with Dalinar, even though he is on the older side, he can do pretty well for himself with stormlight. I agree, though with the Lord Ruler included and the Heralds excluded, does it really matter either way? I agree he would give atium to the inquisitors and mistborn. It is a powerful weapon. But if the Lord Ruler is not included, I do not think it would be a auto win button for team Scadrial. But since the Lord Ruler is included my point is moot I agree They can be very effective. In the short run. But I believe the point being made is after the initial volley, their stores would be in a worse situation than is suggested would happen to the radiants with stormlight. The lord ruler would have to pace his use of the feruchemists, so while using some, the others could be focused on storing. Which is a valid strategy, but then it limits the numbers you can bring to bear. Skybreakers could attack at range with division. Unless I recall incorrectly, those WoB is regarding dead shardplate. Not radiant plate. I do not think, other than the vision you mentioned, we have any metric to judge the durability of radiant shardplate. Interesting idea. Though it would be a gamble each time for the coin to remain lodged in the right place to impede functions right? Plenty of people over history have had bullets, whole poles and what not driven through their skull, and not been any worse for wear. One of the many off the top of my head didn't even realize he got shot in the head, and lived for years with it lodged in there non the wiser till he started to suffer from symptoms of metal poisoning, and then they discovered it. I do not think the way atium functions, would allow the misting or inquisitor to place the coin in the right place in the brain. It would help them aim to shoot the coin into the eye slit, because they would know where the head would be, and when, but I think knowing where to place a coin in a brain every time to impede auto functions is a bridge to far. Pewter thugs die from the same thing. So really you are only talking gold ferrings/gold compounders. Otherwise everyone else dies just as easily or easier than the radiants. We do not know how radiant plate works. I know your theory, and I have heard other theories, but regardless we do not know how living radiant plate functions other than the vision you mentioned. A seeker with training is able to perceive active uses of investiture. The screamers in Kholinar discover kaladin's use of gravitation, but not Shallan's use of illusion. The in world characters can at best reason that Shallan's illusions are "quieter" than Kaladin's gravitation. So we do not know how a seeker will interact with a Lightweavers illusions. For all we know a seeker has to focus really hard and flare their metals to see the barest ripple of illusion, which would be rather difficult during wild scale conflict. Sazed had years of strength he never used. In order to increase his strength to fight the koloss he drained it all in one attack. Unless you are stating there will be one sortie and that is it, then the subsequent clashes would see diminishing returns for the feruchemists. I thought there were theories that Paalm compounded to get those stores, or she was using the stores that were already made by the woman she killed to take the abilities from? There is a WoB that confirmed so long as you were burning a metal mind that identity is you, you could get the feruchemical trait out, which is why if you spiked out feruchemical gold from miles, he could still burn his metal minds with allomancy to heal back his feruchemy. So Paalm could have theoretically used a spike to have the ability to store speed into a metal mind. Then swapped to the spike for steel allomancy. I believe the only issue is then storing that speed into fresh metal minds, but I will need to pull up the theory to find out more. The ferrings ability to increase strength also increase muscle mass. If getting big muscles were alone enough to get you to jump far, then long jump olympics should be body builders. But they are not. Not sure the coin to the brain trick is always going to work perfectly, and atium does burn quickly. True if they can compound, true. They were not close to fullborn. it was after the lord ruler died, and ruin decked them out with further spikes that they got closer. But most standard inquisitors of the lord ruler had health feruchemy. Again, that is dead plate. We do not know regarding radiant plate. But they did not have guns. That was one of the technologies the Lord Ruler suppressed. If we are going with during the lord ruler's rule, then they would have bows, arrows, and swords. if you are going off of Era 2, then you can mentioned guns. I agree. You do not know that. We know very little of the false desolation. We do not know how many forms were used. What they did. and so on. The only fabrial tech we know is radiant surge fabrials. That does not mean just because we only saw three types, that the other 7 did not exist. Potentially. Inquisitors do need to rest more often. It was mentioned in the books and via WoB. I do know it is because storing health takes longer for them since its through hemalurgy, but (this part I am not sure of) I thought it said also hemalurgy is taxing and they need to recover more. Shallan began to be able to give her illusions substance. As far as we know they could fake that. But lets say they can't. Put metal dust interwoven in your mostly physical illusions and they trick the steel vision. Already commented on this. Still wondering how that coin is placed exactly where it needs to be every single time, even with atium. Now one final point of clarity. I am of the belief that as long as the Lord Ruler is included and the Heralds are excluded, the scenario unfairly favors Scadrial, so I believe Scadrial will win. As you can see throughout my post I have agreed and disagreed in equal measure with both sides of the argument. I am only commenting not to say one will win over the other. I am commenting on the arguments themselves. I am trying to add information to the discussion.

Lets say he did have poor eye sight since childhood. Being the son of one of the most important men in the country, I would imagine they had the money to get him corrective lenses pretty early on yes? So although he has bad eye sight, and wears glasses all the time, while wearing glasses he has good eye sight. Since he wears glasses all the time, the good eye sight is the norm for him isn't it? You wear eye glasses long enough, you forget they are there. I think that is what occurred with Renarin. He got so used to glasses being the natural state, and having good vision because of them, that the stormlight healed him back to the ideal he thought was true deep down, which is seeing clear.

And that is your opinion that you are perfectly entitled to. That action was too much for you. Clearly it is not for everyone. Again that is your opinion. You feel what Dalinar has done is not enough to redeem him because the action he took you feel is irredeemable. So it is hardly a discussion if you start from a position that your opinion on Dalinar's action is absolute. Many disagree. We did. You acknowledged that if the silencing of the voices in Dalinar's head were in fact the spiritual aspect of Evi and the people of Rathalas, and if that spiritual aspect was aware enough to offer forgiveness, then the only people who should be able to forgive Dalinar, did in fact forgive Dalinar. It is not for you or me to forgive. It is the injured party. You not enjoying Dalinar's arc is your opinion that you are entitled to. It does not mean Brandon failed as a writer, or messed up Oathbringer. All it means is there is an aspect that is too much for you to personally enjoy it. What you feel Dalinar had to do to atone is different from what others think he had to do to atone. For them, and myself, he has. He did not open the perpendicularity till he received the forgiveness in his mind, and the screams ended. We can disagree on what that forgiveness means, and where it originated, and we can disagree if what was done to atone was enough on an individual basis, but that is a far leap from Brandon failing at writing the novel. Many feel that has already occurred. You disagree. To each their own. Many feel they have not been ignored. You disagree. To each their own. Many feel there was plenty of discussion with it. You disagree. To each their own. Exactly. The story is up to Brandon. If that story does not work for you, that is your prerogative. And that is the crux of the problem with your argument. You are presenting your personal opinion, your own thoughts, and interpretations as fact. As an indisputable truth. That: 1. Dalinar's action is irredeemable. full stop 2. No action Dalinar could take could atone because the action he took is irredeemable. full stop 3. Therefore Brandon messed up There is no discussion to be had with such a stance. You have already decided fully that the action is irredeemable and there is nothing Dalinar could do to move past it and be redeemed. That the book is so bad due to that, that it would have to be rewritten, which we know will not happen. So you have stated your thoughts very clearly. Where do we go from here?

Agree to disagree Yet your statement was regarding the radiants at their height. At their height individual orders had potentially numbers in the low thousands Not arguing whether or not Scadrial would win. I am arguing that the numbers you are drawing upon are inaccurate. As I have stated already, does that mean baby metal born are fighting? Does that mean 80 year old metal born are fighting? In certain abilities maybe, but not the majority. Taking the full population means including people of all ages. People that need diapers, both baby fresh and wrinkly old. So that number is going to be lower than you state And those allomancers could be hidden clowns because they are afraid of what the lord ruler will think of them. I do not mean to be flippant, but that still tells us nothing regarding the population of allomancers/feruchemists, while the words from the author's own mouth does. Same as above. Potentially people hiding it, does not mean it is evidence of a prevalence. That would be well within the number I gave in the hundreds. Because someone does something illegally, means there are countless others doing the same which by extension means there is a prevalence? Because I see one person steal, that means there are 100s of other people stealing the exact same way, the exact same thing? Yep. One politician. Mentioned once. Stating he was the first of his kind to do so There were a whole lot of scientists at the site. Does that mean there are a prevalence of scientists across all of Scadrial? We know Wax's Uncle and Telsin have spikes. We do not however know how many other people in the organization have spikes. Irich did not for instance. The soldiers working for them did not for instance. So we have no idea the number of spikes and individuals spiked that are available to state that is a sign of prevalence. All famous unique individuals. People by and large in the novels do not know how allomancy works. People still think soothers and rioters can control your mind. People believe Jak's statements about using tin to summon great bursts of strength, when it does not work that way, and WoB also confirm that Jak is fudging things, like his relationship with koloss blooded woman. I do not think those are signs, and I think the numerous WoB I have referenced back that up. And I agree. Roshar without heralds, and Scadrial having their guns, inquistors, koloss, and most importantly the lord ruler, Scadrial to me would win. But as I said, I disagree on the numbers presented. Straff was breeding on purpose. Using your earlier referenced logic, we do not know how many children he sired. He mentioned it was at least enough to create a misting kill squad, which was killed by Vin. Some were his children, which is why he was so upset at the loss. Because of all the investment lost in breeding and raising them hidden away.

Thing is there is no other WoB conflicting with this. The books do support it. We can disagree, but in a discussion making points going off what the numbers mentioned in this thread, you are saying a result will occur because of numbers you personally have come up with that contradict what the author himself says. We are attempting to use arbitrary numbers to illustrate concrete pieces of information we have. I not see any WoB that contradict the WoB I have posted. I have not seen any character in the books state something that contradicts the WoB I have posted. The WoB is recent and clear, so it is not being misunderstood, and it is not trumped by a recent WoB that says otherwise. In this situation that WoB stands on its own. Coinshots are the most common of the existent metalborn. You could have 10 people, and 6 of those people have brown eyes, and still say brown eyes is the most common. That does not translate to common in terms of the entire population. The thing I take issue here, is you are going by your impression of the characters interacting with metalborn, and taking that to mean there are far more than is stated. Like I said earlier, if you put yourself in a situation that is going to have primarily individuals of a certain type, then you are going to primarily see individuals of a certain type. That does not include the greater population. Take Roshar for instance (which also per WoB, has a larger population than Scadrial). A larger number of bonded radiants are Kholin. Does that mean all Kholins and only Kholins bond spren? No. It means they are in a location where (as per WoB) there is a greater than usual concentration of radiant spren to bond, and spren tend to hang out by "important" individuals, coupled with if you are honorable, it is a good chance your family is "honorable". It also does not mean that radiant spren are super prevalent everywhere and all royalty are bonding. All it means is if you look where there tends to be large groups of a certain type, then you are going to see large amounts of a certain type. That does not mean the trend carries out to the entire population. To me this is one of those situations. I have 7 more WoB that I will be responding to Rshara regarding showing that the 1/16th was an isolated situation and is not how it normally functions by large. Secret History clearly states that Preservation changed it to send a message. It clearly states it is unique and does not normally function that way. The mist sickness only pops up when the well is filling and Ruin's prison needs to be reinforced. The 1/16th ratio is a new thing to send a message. Preservation makes new allomancers. 1/16th is not the normal function. It is changed with intention during that time in order to accomplish a goal. Every other time it does not work that way, which is present in Era 1, all the way till the mists start coming during the day and killing people. I have posted 7 WoB and annotations. It says it in the books. I really do not see how this can still be disputed baring the author literally popping in randomly and saying "hey guys, all this information is wrong. Totally ignore me and my books" (first WoB. The mists were changed. That is why the prior times Demoux went out into the mists did not count for being inoculated. So the mists were different during the 1/16 mist sickness) Brandon Sanderson Chapter Seventeen The Mists Strike Down Demoux I knew we needed a meaningful casualty from the mistsickness, somebody who we knew and cared about. I don't know if readers care about Demoux, but he's the only one among the crew who could be susceptible to the mists. My intention is that striking him down here impacts the reader directly, making the danger of the mists more concrete. I maintain a paranoid worry that somewhere in this book, or the previous one, Demoux went out into the mists and should have fallen sick then. I can't think of an instance, and I do believe I could reasonably make this the first time he's exposed to them. But still I worry that I've missed something. I'm sure my loyal—and very meticulous—fans will let me know if I did. (Note that Demoux would have had to go out in the mists after the time when they started killing people. This happened while Vin approached the Well of Ascension—by way of trivia, the mists changed the very moment the full power of the Well returned to be drawn again. Anyway, any times Demoux went into the mists before then would not have inoculated him.) The Hero of Ages Annotations (Aug. 18, 2009) (Another WoB. It is a statistical anomaly. If it was a normal occurrence, then why would people notice it? It would defeat the purpose of trying to call Elend's and Vin's attention to it Brandon Sanderson The Number Sixteen Demoux's problems here are intended to give me another means of reminding the reader of the statistical anomaly found in the numbers of people who fall sick to the mist. As I wrote the draft, I'm glad I was forced to keep Demoux alive, as doing so gave me a character who was intimately connected with the problems of the mists and the things they were inflicting on people. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 3, 2009) (WoB, 1/16th of everyone is not necessarily capable of becoming allomancers. I assume the next response will be "well he is being coy regarding feruchemists!". Which is why I have the prior WoBs, and the further ones below) Questioner Is 1/16th of everyone on Scadrial capable of becoming Allomancers? Brandon Sanderson Are 1/16th capable-- Questioner Of everyone. Brandon Sanderson --is that the question? Not necessarily. Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016) (WoB stating that Preservation set it up that way, on purpose to catch attention. He devised it specifically to get people to notice. wicktacular At the end of the first Mistborn trilogy it's really significant that 1/16th of the soldiers who got really sick are now atium Mistings. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Sixteen that he-- when Preservation set that all up. He, number one, was not all there. But he was trying to create sixteen as a symbol to say, "Hey, catch this. I've given you a clue-- uh-- help." And so it was devised specifically for that. "*inaudible* Something's going on here." Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016) (WoB Preservation picked the number on purpose so that people would realize they were being made into Allomancers) Melhay Of the people that were sick for the 16 days in comparison to just the one day, it is mentioned that they would be able to burn more precious metals (atium). Could it also be possible they are/were Mistborn—with the ability to burn all 16 metals? Brandon Sanderson Well, what was going on here was a clue established and set by Leras before he died. He wanted something to indicate—should he be unable to inform mankind—that what was happening wasn't natural, but instead something intentional. He worried that men wouldn't be able to realize they were being made into Allomancers. And so, the mist was set to do something very specific, as has to do with the interaction between the human soul, Allomancy, and the sixteen metals. Each of the 'Shardworlds' I've written in (Mistborn, Elantris, Warbreaker, Way of Kings) exists with the same cosmology. All things exist on three realms—the spiritual, the cognitive, and the physical. What's going on here is an interaction between the three realms. I don't want to bore you with my made up philosophy, but I do have a cohesive metaphysical reasoning for how my worlds and magic works. And there is a single plane of existence—called Shadesmar, the Cognative Realm—which connects them all. You will never need to know any of this to read and enjoy my books, but there is an overarching story behind all of them, going on in the background. Adonalsium, Hoid, the origin of Ati, Leras, the Dor, and the Voice (from Warbreaker) are all tied up in this. Barnes and Noble Book Club Q&A (July 8, 2009) (WoB, stating that the 16 was the number put in intentionally with the mistsickness to garner attention) Brandon Sanderson The Number Sixteen I worry that having Vin make this connection is one of the more forced events in the book. She'd just finished telling everyone that she wasn't a scholar, and now she discovers a pattern of numbers hidden in the statistics of how people fall sick? My original intention for this was to have her be in a mind-set where she was looking for natural rules—because of her earlier discussion of Ruin and his rules—which then allowed her to see this pattern. Rereading it, I'm not 100% pleased with it, but it's too late to make a change. I'd probably rewrite it so that Noorden or Elend make the connection, then let Vin connect that to what she's been thinking about. That would have been a much more natural progression. Note that here, Vin misunderstands what these numbers mean. She's looking for rules that bind Ruin. What she finds is not that, but instead a clue left by Preservation. Numbers are understandable to people regardless of language, and so Preservation decided to leave some clues for people to discover that would hopefully lead them to follow the plans he'd set in motion. In my prewriting, I'd intended there to be more hard facts to be discovered in the workings of the universe—numbers hidden in mathematical statistics that said rational things, like the boiling point of water or the like. All as a means of Preservation hinting to humankind that there was a plan for them. In the end, this didn't work out. I decided it would be overly complicated and that it would just be too technical to work in this particular novel. The only remnant of that plot arc became the number sixteen that Preservation embedded into the way the mistsickness works, intending it to give a clue about what the mists are doing to people. "You now are Allomancers!" is what this was supposed to scream. Unfortunately, the Lord Ruler's obfuscation of Allomancy—and the number of metals in it—left this clue to fall flat. The Hero of Ages Annotations (Sept. 3, 2009) (WoB stating that the 16 was a recent occurrence because since the Lord Ruler died, and would be unable to take up the power again, he needed a way to reach Vin and Elend to let them know he has a plan and to follow it. The Well filled in the past, but the 16 is new) Andrew The Great (paraphrased) Why did the mist sickness only happen after the Lord Ruler's Death? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It didn't. It just happened on a much smaller scale. As you remember, the Lord Ruler basically =stagnation. Because it seemed the Lord Ruler would be taking the power again (as was intended, and as apparently had been done many times before), and because of the extreme stability of the Final Empire, Preservation (though it really only had a shadow of it's mind left) wasn't as freaked out. After the LR died, Preservation began to attempt to create more allomancers for the reasons mentioned in question 7. It also left clues, such as the number 16 everywhere, so that people would know it was preservation doing it, and not just random chance, or ruin. Turns out that that didn't work so well. Idaho Falls Signing (June 20, 2009) So 7 annotations/WoB all saying the same exact thing that Secret History (a book!) stated. The 1/16th is not how it normally works.

I agree Amaram was suffering from vanity and narcissism, though it could be pointed out he actively worked to bring about a desolation, that would result in countless lives lost, just to be seen as the savior. Jasnah thinks to herself exactly that. That he would destroy the armies just so he can be seen as the savior.

I am sorry but I am starting to get really frustrated by you and Rshara picking which WoB you deem canon or not. This is the third time now I have referenced WoB that are recent, clear, and unmuddled, and I get told because it does not make sense to you or Rshara it does not count? The metalborn WoB is 3 years old. It is not a brief one sentence that could be taken out of context. It is multi lined, multi response, with the answer repeated. It is in line with the books. In the original trilogy we meet four mistborn. In all of the empire we only meet four. Five if you count the guy who trained Kelsier. In a population as stated in the 100s of millions, we meet five. (edit: six because of the mistborn in the kill squad that Straff sent after Vin. I would not want to be inaccurate and forget anyone. That makes .000006%). It is repeatedly stated throughout both Era novels that metalborn are rare. We have multiple WoB stating metalborn are rare. We have a WoB with Sanderson saying he has done the calculations and it is somewhere around one in a couple of thousand. The population of New York City (counting Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn, Bronx and Staten Island) is 8.6 million as of 2017. People who identify as transgender make up 1.2 to 6.8 percent. A highschool teacher I had has come out as transgender about 5 years ago. A friend of mine who got married, and had a child about 3 years ago came out as transgender and transitioned. I am sure in a commute from Queens to Manhattan I will run into other transgenders and not even realize it. Mistborn are super rare. Coinshots are common. Sanderson said you may not be one, but it is common to know someone, or of someone. The closest place I would say to Elendel in population density would be New York City or a similar metropolitan area. I do not know where you or Rshara live, but those numbers are accurate to me based on that demographic. The only time we see a plethora of metalborn is when the job calls for it. That Kelsier's crew specifically recruits mistings. That Wax's uncle specifically seeks metalborn to hire. Of the police force Wax works with, how many are metalborn? None. Of the parties that are raided by the Vanishers, specifically looking for people that may have allomancy, how many are grabbed? One? Maybe two? So you show me where in the books you see a group of young coinshots on the street shooting a metal ball back and forth as a game that metal born are so prevalent. You show me where in the books you see steel ferrings speeding all over the city because it is so prevalent. In my life I am sure I will run into an engineer. If I work in an engineering division of a company, I am going to see a ton of engineers. But that does not mean there is a plethora of them throughout every level of our world. So to me the WoB is very explicit and makes perfect sense with the world we are presented with. You want to make your own canon because it does not make sense to you? Feel free, but until such time as Brandon turns around and says "hey guys, remember that thing I said? I was totally wrong. Calderis and Rshara were right after all." I will continue to operate on the WoB that states .05 percent of the population is metal born, and that some of the orders of the knights radiant reach the low thousands. Which if we say low thousands is three thousands, and claim of ten orders, only three reach those heights, you still get the radiants numbering 9000, not counting the 1 to 100s of the other orders. WoB below (again for one) for reference VindicationKnight Do you mind telling us what the average number of Knights for a Knight Radiant Order were (barring Bondmiths) and possibly how close the different orders worked together? Brandon Sanderson It varied very widely, and depended on many factors. At their highest, some orders had members in the low thousands. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 24, 2015) Questioner So what is the, like, actual density of metalborns born in Elendel? Brandon Sanderson Oh boy, I have this in my notes somewhere. Um... Questioner *inaudible* I guess? Brandon Sanderson Roughly. All metalborn? One out of every couple thousands. Little more common than you would probably think, based on... I don't know. People usually assume they're a little more rare than they are. But, yeah... Questioner Yeah. It just-- As I was reading I kept finding people saying, "Oh yeah, it's so rare. It's so insanely rare." I was like, "I feel like it's not that rare," like... Brandon Sanderson Yeah, but still. One every couple thousand. Like, you're going to know somebody, but the chances of you actually being one are pretty rare. Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016) The mist sickness, as Oltux72 says below, is a unique circumstance that occurred when the mist covered the land and was operating in a way it had not done for hundreds of years, to send a message. You said yourself book trumps WoB. I quote the book that supports it, but that is not canon either? So what trumps it now? This is extremely frustrating when I go through the trouble of researching and presenting quotes and WoB, and get told they do not count because they do not agree with what you are saying. Thank you.

Secret history page 284 “I needed a sign,” Fuzz whispered, stopping near Kelsier. “Something he couldn’t change. A sign of the weapon I’d buried. The boiling point of water, I think. Maybe its freezing point? But what if the units change over the years? I needed something that would be remembered always. Something they’ll immediately recognize.” He leaned in. “Sixteen.” “Six . . . teen?” Kelsier said. “Sixteen.” Fuzz grinned. “Clever, don’t you think?” “Because it means . . .” “The number of metals,” Fuzz said. “In Allomancy.” “There are ten. Eleven, if you count the one I discovered.” “No! No, no, that’s stupid. Sixteen. It’s the perfect number. They’ll see. They have to see.” Fuzz started pacing again, and his head returned—mostly—to its earlier state. It is very relevant. It was changed only to send a message to elend. It wasnt that way normally and it isnt that way in elendel. So to say a unique circumstance to accomplish a goal is the rule brick is disingenuous

And yet there are other WoB that say preservation changed it so it would be noticable to Elend. That 16 percent is not how it was originally and not how it was after. So in this case, no book does not trump WoB because there was more going on than was apparent to the characters in the novel. Though sazed does comment on that in the book, so the book covers that too