Pathfinder

No problem, I will be happy to quote the section and provide the page reference if you like. I think there was a misunderstanding here. Maybe if I break it down this way it will help 1. You are asserting if Radiants have access to stormlight, then mistborn should have access to metal. I never disagreed with with 2. Combat starts with both Radiant and mistborn having metal. The elsecaller soulcasts all the vials of metal into smoke. The mistborn now only possesses the metals he or she swallowed. If the mistborn could take the gemstones away from the radiant during combat, and destroy the stormlight preventing the radiant from using that resource, it would equate to the same thing. Metals are a gateway for the mistborn's powers. Remove the metals, you remove the access. Mistborn do not have any inherent powers that would do that. Potentially chromium could be argued, but again as has been stated numerous times, that requires getting up close and personal. Getting through shardplate, which is invested metal, when using chromium on invested jewerly takes seconds, a full set of armor I would imagine would take significantly longer. If you take issue with the way I speak, please report my posts to the forum moderators. They will then review the posts for any inflammatory speech against the rules they presented. If they feel it applies, they will then reach out to me and discuss what the issue is, and how to resolve it. I do not see the moderator title on your profile. Are you in the process of becoming one? If not, then please follow the procedure in the site rules and report the posts you take issue with. Thank you.

When did I ever say my argument was to disprove the existence of god? When did Jasnah ever say her argument was to disprove the existence of god? This thread is what would Jasnah, the atheist do if she found out about the Shards. Surprise! It already happened! She already talked to Dalinar! Honor is a shard and is dead. She knows about spren! Guess what? She is still an atheist! I have quoted her at length as to why she is still an atheist She does not believe god exists. So it does not matter if what someone else calls a god is monotheistic, polytheistic, a feeling, the sky, an animal. Call whatever you want god, and that is great for you, but for Jasnah god does not exist. You can define light. If you say god made light. Then Jasnah researched and proved light was such and such process, then does god no longer exist? Or do you say well god made the process that is light. Well if Jasnah then researches and proves how the process that light is came about, then does god no longer exist? Or do you say god is behind that? Is god nothing more than what is not known yet? For an atheist that is not the case. God does not exist. There is always room for questions. There is always room for a theory to be proven wrong. There is always more information. More learning. But the assertion of the vegan is not what it considers or does not consider meat. The assertion of the vegan is that it does not eat meat. So you are asking the vegan to define meat he or she would eat. By asking an atheist to define god, is asking an atheist to assert they believe a god exists. An atheist believes god does not exist. So why would there by a definition for it? As I have said already, it would be the equivalency of you asking someone on the street to define mdopgknat. There is no definition, because it does not exist! That is why I am saying you and @Debarra 's logic is flawed. You both are trying to debate the validity of atheism versus theism. That is not the question here. You want to discuss whether you think atheism is right or not? Sure! Lets go to general discussion and talk there! Here the query is how would Jasnah, the atheist, deal with the shards existence. I have quoted her word for word on numerous occasions. You accuse me of ignoring your points, yet when have you or @Debarra even once responded to Jasnah's own words? Jasnah Does Not Believe God Exists So why would any being of power, any structure, any definition of anyone of what god is change that? But we are not discussing whether or not god exists. This is theism versus atheism, and is an entirely different discussion. That is the disconnect I am trying to get across. You are acting as if you are arguing with an atheist that they are wrong. The question is what would Jasnah, the atheist do in view of the shards. And that is clear as day and has been said in the books, and repeatedly here. Nothing. She would still be an atheist. The shards did not change anything. That is faulty logic. It starts with the assumption that god exists, and every practice, every test is only discovering that that version of god does not exist, but an "actual" god does, it just has not been proven yet. That is not what Jasnah believes. Jasnah believes god does not exist. All the whole shard business proved was to those that believed Vorinism, that Vorinism is false. Jasnah never believed Vorinism in the beginning, so why would its disproof change anything? The thing that seems to be the continual brick wall both you and @debrra are going against is this idea that if one thing is not god, something else must be. Jasnah is asserting there is not. She literally says: Jasnah sniffed in derision. “I would not dedicate four years of my life to such an empty pursuit. It’s idiocy to try to prove a negative. Let the Vorin believe as they wish—the wise among them will find goodness and solace in their faith; the fools would be fools no matter what they believed.” What is alien about this? Ok, maybe if I try this tact. Jasnah: God does not exist Vorinism, this is our definition of god. The Almighty is all powerful, and eternal. He listens to glyphwards Jasnah: that is great for you. Worship as you wish. God does not exist, so what you worship is not god. It is for you. Have fun Horneaters: Spren are gods. Jasnah: That is great for you. Worship as you wish. God does not exist, so what you worship is not god. It is for you. Have fun Pure Lakers: Nu Ralik is god Jasnah: That is great for you. Worship as you wish. God does not exist, so what you worship is not god. it is for you. Have fun Vorinism is proven wrong. Almight is not all powerful, and eternal. He cannot listen to glyphwards because he is dead Jasnah: I am sorry for your loss. Horneaters: Vorinism is wrong! That means Horneaters are right! Pure Lakers: No that means Nu Ralik is right! Jasnah: No all that means is the belief structure for those that prescribed to that belief structure are wrong. It does not make any other entity exist or not exist. Just that specific instance of that specific belief was proven false. Vorinism could just as easily change their definition of the Almighty for it to be valid for them again. Then god exists for them again. They could easily change their definition of the almighty, or say that being is not the almighty, something else must be (like Dalinar). That is where you get different "branches" of faith. For myself god does not exist. So nothing has changed. So you just rewrote what you already wrote that I already responded to, so I guess go back to my last post? Defining it as such would mean that there is a god that exists that does determine morality and deserves to be worshiped. Just that that deity has not been discovered or proven yet. That every proof of the non existence of god, is the proof to a "false" god, and the true "god" that holds to this definition is "still out there". She believes god does not exist, so this would be incorrect. To put this portion another way. If someone defines god as determining morality and should be worshiped. Then I can say my lord cat determines morality and should be worshiped. My lord cat exists, and he is mighty as he feasts on friskies. Thus god exists! You said the definition of a god that can determine morality and should be worshiped! I say my lord cat can determine morality and should be worshiped! You see he exists! Ah ha! So you cannot be an atheist anymore! You must now worship my cat! But that is not how it works. I think that my cat determines morality and should be worshiped. That is great for me. That does not mean Jasnah does. To Jasnah God does not exist, so it does not matter whether that I do or do not think that my cat determines morality and should be worshiped. It is not god. And if someone comes along and is able to definitively prove that my cat cannot define morality and should be worshiped, does not mean some other entity can. It does not mean some other entity cannot. All it proves is my cat can't, and I need to re-examine my own faith. To either then prescribe to another faith, or alter my existing to say that my cat is still god, just he can't determine morality. Even though he cannot determine morality, I think he should still be worshiped, so I worship him. Or I decide a bird can do it. Or I decide Yahweh can do it. Or Vishnu. Or Allah. It is all the same to an atheist.

This would be difficult because Spren are already full of investiture, so increasing it with investiture from another system when investiture interferes with alien investiture is difficult. Basically the investiture would have to be its own investiture. Perhaps a Bondsmith playing with connection could do so.

@agrabes and @Debarra I think there is a fundamental problem with the arguments you both are making. If you would like to discuss atheism versus theism, that is an entirely different thread on an entirely different forum. This thread is asking how would Jasnah, the atheist, respond to the shards. Approaching this question from the perspective of a theist is faulty. It assumes things that for an atheist are simply not true. Need a definition of god? Why? It does not exist. By defining it, it would exist. You could say define mxhdprgtl. And Jasnah would say why? It does not exist. You made it up. So to requesting she define god. God does not exist for her, so why would there be a definition for an entity? Define light. Well light is blah blah blah. It exists. For an atheist, god does not exist. You can have beings with power. Great. Congrats. That still changes nothing. Say to a vegan to define the meat they would eat, and they would say, I don't eat meat. How can you say you cannot define meat you would eat? Because I don't eat meat! I think that is the disconnect. Trying to rationalize atheism from the perspective of a theist. There is no pursuit of god. Atheism is not "I just have not found the right god yet". God does not exist. That is the perspective of an atheist. I mean seriously, everything I have stated, Jasnah has stated in the book. If you want to argue against atheism, that is an entirely different discussion. The question is, Jasnah, the atheist, meets the shards, what happens to her atheism? And the answer has been written across the books. She is still an atheist. The only thing the books definitively proved is Vorinism as a religion is false. It teaches God exists, he is all powerful, all good, and his name is the Almighty. The reality is Honor is not all powerful. Not all good. And he is dead. Jasnah has spoken to Ivory. Jasnah has spoken to Dalinar at length. It did not change anything. At this point I will just have to quote each and every instance backing up what I have said repeatedly across this entire thread. Way of Kings page 458 “Is it hard for you, Jasnah? Painful, I mean?” “Atheism is not a disease, Your Majesty,” Jasnah said dryly. “It’s not as if I’ve caught a foot rash.” “Of course not, of course not. But … er, isn’t it difficult, having nothing in which to believe?” Shallan leaned forward, still sketching, but keeping her attention on the conversation. Shallan had assumed that training under a heretic would be a little more exciting. She and Kabsal—the witty ardent whom she’d met on her first day in Kharbranth—had chatted several times now about Jasnah’s faith. However, around Jasnah herself, the topic almost never came up. When it did, Jasnah usually changed it. Today, however, she did not. Perhaps she sensed the sincerity in the king’s question. “I wouldn’t say that I have nothing to believe in, Your Majesty. Actually, I have much to believe in. My brother and my uncle, my own abilities. The things I was taught by my parents.” “But, what is right and wrong, you’ve … Well, you’ve discarded that.” “Just because I do not accept the teachings of the devotaries does not mean I’ve discarded a belief in right and wrong.” “But the Almighty determines what is right!” “Must someone, some unseen thing, declare what is right for it to be right? I believe that my own morality—which answers only to my heart—is more sure and true than the morality of those who do right only because they fear retribution.” “But that is the soul of law,” the king said, sounding confused. “If there is no punishment, there can be only chaos.” “If there were no law, some men would do as they wish, yes,” Jasnah said. “But isn’t it remarkable that, given the chance for personal gain at the cost of others, so many people choose what is right?” “Because they fear the Almighty.” “No,” Jasnah said. “I think something innate in us understands that seeking the good of society is usually best for the individual as well. Humankind is noble, when we give it the chance to be. That nobility is something that exists independent of any god’s decree.” “I just don’t see how anything could be outside God’s decrees.” The king shook his head, bemused. “Brightness Jasnah, I don’t mean to argue, but isn’t the very definition of the Almighty that all things exist because of him?” “If you add one and one, that makes two, does it not?” “Well, yes.” “No god needs declare it so for it to be true,” Jasnah said. “So, could we not say that mathematics exists outside the Almighty, independent of him?” “Perhaps.” “Well,” Jasnah said, “I simply claim that morality and human will are independent of him too.” “If you say that,” the king said, chuckling, “then you’ve removed all purpose for the Almighty’s existence!” “Indeed.” “Well,” Taravangian said, “I must say that you make your points quite effectively. I don’t accept them, though.” “My intention is not to convert, Your Majesty,” Jasnah said. “I am content keeping my beliefs to myself, something most of my colleagues in the devotaries have difficulty doing. As I said Jasnah has no need of a "god". It is useless to her. There is no need to think about it. Worship it. Try to make it happy. A being you call god can exist or not, that does not mean she will call it god. You can come up with every single name in the book, and it will still not be god, because "god" does not exist. Let Taravangian have his god. That does not mean that god is hers, nor that she calls it god. Way of Kings page 458 (same section) “Our hearts, Brightness. I believe because I feel something, a closeness to the Almighty, a peace that comes when I live my faith.” “The mind is capable of projecting expected emotional responses.” “But didn’t you yourself argue that the way we act—the way we feel about right and wrong—was a defining attribute of our humanity? You used our innate morality to prove your point. So how can you discard my feelings?” “Discard them? No. Regard them with skepticism? Perhaps. Your feelings, Shallan—however powerful—are your own. Not mine. And what I feel is that spending my life trying to earn the favor of an unseen, unknown, and unknowable being who watches me from the sky is an exercise in sheer futility.” She pointed at Shallan with her pen. “But your rhetorical method is improving. We’ll make a scholar of you yet.” Shallan can feel as she does. She can in her heart feel there is god. That is great for her. Congrats. Have fun with that. Jasnah does not. There is no compunction, need nor desire for Jasnah to earn, locate, or appease some entity. She lives her life. Does not matter if that entity that someone else calls god shows up. It is still not god to Jasnah, because god to Jasnah does not exist. Way of Kings page 530 "The older we grow, the more likely we are to reject the simple answers. Unless someone gets in our way and demands they be accepted regardless.” Jasnah’s eyes narrowed. “You wonder why I reject the devotaries.” “I do.” “Most of them seek to stop the questions.” Crystal clear. Religion for Jasnah stops questions. Why does the sun shine? God did that. But If I use a telescope, and scientific research, I find out that the sun is a star. It radiates light, that travels through space. The sky is blue due to how that light impacts the ozone. Well god made it that way. But I can research and find out how the sun and earth was formed. How the ozone came to be. Why those particular chemicals in the atmosphere result in the light making the sky blue. Well god made it that way. So is that what god is? The god of the gaps? Anything we do not know, god did it? Well if everything god did so far, has a reason outside of god once it is discovered, then I will continue to research and find answers. Not just "god did it" Way of Kings page 635 “Don’t you see?” he said. “She’s trying to prove that the Voidbringers weren’t real. She wants to demonstrate that this was all a fabrication of the Radiants.” He stepped forward and turned to face her, the lantern light rebounding from the books to either side, making his face pale. “She wants to prove once and for all that the devotaries—and Vorinism—are a gigantic fraud. That’s what this is all about.” “Maybe,” Shallan said thoughtfully. It did seem to fit. What better goal for an avowed heretic? Undermining foolish beliefs and disproving religion? It explained why Jasnah would study something as seemingly inconsequential as the Voidbringers. Find the right evidence in the historical records, and Jasnah might well be able to prove herself right. Kabsal assumes Jasnah is trying to prove the Voidbringers are not real to prove Vorinism is false. This is ultimately laughable because: 1. She is not doing so 2. Vorinism is false, and proven all on its own The perspective of the theist assumes there is a pursuit of god that has not been attained yet. That it is a continual quest where reasons are found for the non-existence till that non-existence is then invalidated. That is a theist perspective. Theists seek god. Dalinar believed in the Almighty. When he found out the Almighty is dead, he sought what he felt god was. He found god in that golden light. There is no more proof that that golden light is any different than Honor, Odium, and so on. Yet for Dalinar he believes. Because for Dalinar, deep down he believes god exists. So he seeks that god. Jasnah does not, so she seeks nothing. It does not exist, so what is she seeking? Way of Kings page 679 “I hadn’t thought to find ardents who were willing to question their own beliefs.” Jasnah raised an eyebrow. “You will find wise men in any religion, Shallan, and good men in every nation. Those who truly seek wisdom are those who will acknowledge the virtue in their adversaries and who will learn from those who disabuse them of error. All others—heretic, Vorin, Ysperist, or Maakian—are equally closed-minded.” She took her hand from the book, moving as if to stand up. “He’s wrong,” Shallan said suddenly, realizing something. Jasnah turned to her. “Kabsal,” Shallan said, blushing. “He says you’re researching the Voidbringers because you want to prove that Vorinism is false.” Jasnah sniffed in derision. “I would not dedicate four years of my life to such an empty pursuit. It’s idiocy to try to prove a negative. Let the Vorin believe as they wish—the wise among them will find goodness and solace in their faith; the fools would be fools no matter what they believed.” Again right from Jasnah's lips. Let the Vorin have their god and have their goodness and solace. That is not for her. The Almighty is not her god. Because she has no god. She cannot have something if for her it does not exist. It does not matter if the Almighty showed up and said hi to her and Shallan. She would say "That is great for you Shallan. Enjoy time with your god". And that is that. The Almighty is not her God. God does not exist. Words of Radiance page 38 “Luck, Brightness!” one of the sailors said. “It is a good omen for your trip, don’t you think?” “I shall take any fortune provided me, Nanhel Eltorv,” she said. “Thank you for the seat.” The sailor bowed awkwardly before retreating. “You think they’re superstitious fools,” Shallan said softly, watching the sailor leave. “From what I have observed,” Jasnah said, “these sailors are men who have found a purpose in life and now take simple pleasure in it.” Jasnah looked at the next drawing. “Many people make far less out of life. Captain Tozbek runs a good crew. You were wise in bringing him to my attention.” Shallan smiled. “You didn’t answer my question.” “You didn’t ask a question,” Again, The sailors religion or superstition is good for them. It brings them solace. It does nothing for Jasnah. Let them have their religion. If the sailing trip went well, then great. It does not change Jasnah's convictions. The sailors would believe it went well because of their beliefs. Jasnah would believe it just went well. Simple Words of Radiance page 38 “They’re living ideas.” Jasnah spun on her. “What?” Shallan said, jumping. “Am I wrong?” “No,” Jasnah said. “You’re right.” The woman narrowed her eyes. “By my best guess, spren are elements of the Cognitive Realm that have leaked into the physical world. They’re concepts that have gained a fragment of sentience, perhaps because of human intervention. “Think of a man who gets angry often. Think of how his friends and family might start referring to that anger as a beast, as a thing that possesses him, as something external to him. Humans personify. We speak of the wind as if it has a will of its own. “Spren are those ideas—the ideas of collective human experience—somehow come alive. Shadesmar is where that first happens, and it is their place. Though we created it, they shaped it. They live there; they rule there, within their own cities.” “Cities?” “Yes,” Jasnah said, looking back out over the ocean. She seemed troubled. “Spren are wild in their variety. Some are as clever as humans and create cities. Others are like fish and simply swim in the currents.” This is what spren are. They are no more gods to Jasnah than anything else. Horneaters revere such things. Good for them. That does not instill any compunction in Jasnah to do so. Words of Radiance page 69 The Stormfather, of course, is a strange offshoot of this, his theoretical nature changing depending on which era of Vorinism is doing the talking. . . .” She trailed off. Shallan blushed, realizing she’d looked away and had begun tracing a glyphward on her blanket against the evil in Jasnah’s words. “That was a tangent,” Jasnah said. “I apologize.” “You’re so sure he isn’t real,” Shallan said. “The Almighty.” “I have no more proof of him than I do of the Thaylen Passions, Nu Ralik of the Purelake, or any other religion.” “And the Heralds? You don’t think they existed?” “I don’t know,” Jasnah said. “There are many things in this world that I don’t understand. For example, there is some slight proof that both the Stormfather and the Almighty are real creatures—simply powerful spren, such as the Nightwatcher.” “Then he would be real.” “I never claimed he was not,” Jasnah said. “I merely claimed that I do not accept him as God, nor do I feel any inclination to worship him. Yet again. People can call the heralds god. Thaylens can believe the passions. Purelakers can worship Nu Ralik. Or any other religion. The beings they worship can either show up individually, all together, or not at all and it changed nothing. They are not god to Jasnah, because god does not exist. Oathbringer page 399 “You have given the world a grand gift. A man can be brave in facing down a hundred enemies, but coming into these—and recording them rather than hiding them—was bravery on an entirely different level.” “It was mere stubbornness. I refused to believe I was mad.” “Then I bless your stubbornness, Uncle.” Jasnah pursed her lips in thought, then continued more softly. “I’m worried about you, Uncle. What people are saying.” “You mean my heresy?” Dalinar said. “I’m less worried about the heresy itself, and more how you’re dealing with the backlash.” Ahead of them, Navani had somehow bullied the Radiant into letting her look at the fabrial. The day was stretching toward late afternoon, the canyon falling into shadow. But this vision was a long one, and he was content to wait upon Navani. He settled down on a rock. “I don’t deny God, Jasnah,” he said. “I simply believe that the being we call the Almighty was never actually God.” “Which is the wise decision to make, considering the accounts of your visions.” Jasnah settled down beside him. “You must be happy to hear me say that,” he said. “I’m happy to have someone to talk to, and I’m certainly happy to see you on a journey of discovery. But am I happy to see you in pain? Am I happy to see you forced to abandon something you held dear?” She shook her head. “I don’t mind people believing what works for them, Uncle. That’s something nobody ever seems to understand—I have no stake in their beliefs. I don’t need company to be confident.” “How do you suffer it, Jasnah?” Dalinar said. “The things people say about you? I see the lies in their eyes before they speak. Or they will tell me, with utter sincerity, things I have reportedly said—even though I deny them. They refuse my own word against the rumors about me!” Jasnah stared out across the canyon. More men were gathering at the other end, a weak, beleaguered group who were only now discovering they were the victors in this contest. A large column of smoke rose in the distance, though he couldn’t see the source. “I wish I had answers, Uncle,” Jasnah said softly. “Fighting makes you strong, but also callous. I worry I have learned too much of the latter and not enough of the former. But I can give you a warning.” He looked toward her, raising his eyebrows. “They will try,” Jasnah said, “to define you by something you are not. Don’t let them. I can be a scholar, a woman, a historian, a Radiant. People will still try to classify me by the thing that makes me an outsider. They want, ironically, the thing I don’t do or believe to be the prime marker of my identity. I have always rejected that, and will continue to do so.” She reached over and put her freehand on his arm. “You are not a heretic, Dalinar Kholin. You are a king, a Radiant, and a father. You are a man with complicated beliefs, who does not accept everything you are told. You decide how you are defined. Don’t surrender that to them. They will gleefully take the chance to define you, if you allow it.” I mean, do I really have to explain this? I have been repeating it constantly. There is no pursuit of god for Jasnah. She does not need others to be confident that god does not exist. Jasnah has read Dalinar's visions. Honor is dead. Honor is Tanavast is the Almighty. Vorinism is false. Does that mean she stops those that believe in Vorinism from worshiping Vorinism? No! Let them find what comfort they wish where they wish it so long as they do not hurt others because of it. Dalinar is the perspective you both are taking. That if the Almighty is not god, then there must be god out there. He just has not found it yet. So for Dalinar the golden light is god. That light could be no different than Honor, Cultivation, or Odium. It could be more powerful than them. It could exist or not exist. That still does not mean it is god to Jasnah. Because god does not exist. So if Jasnah were to find out honor was dead (which she did because she read the visions), it changes nothing regarding her atheism. Almighty the all powerful was not god, so why would almighty the fallible and dead be god? Oathbringer page 520 For over a decade, she’d dreamed of uniting the best minds of the kingdom in a coordinated effort. She’d been ignored; all anyone had wanted to discuss was her lack of belief in their god. Jasnah laments that when she wants to unite the best minds of the Kingdom to prevent a desolation, all they seemed to care about was her non-belief in their god. Again, she is not pursuing some definition of a deity. God does not exist. Why search for something that does not exist? It is incredibly frustrating for her. She does not believe. Can't people just accept that and move on so they can focus on the desolations? Worship how you wish, she does not care. Oathbringer page 520 “We need to discuss your uncle. The rift between our houses serves nobody. I wish to bridge that chasm, and Dalinar listens to you. Please, Jasnah. You can steer him properly.” “My uncle knows his own mind on these matters, and doesn’t require me to ‘steer’ him.” “As if you haven’t been doing so already, Jasnah. Everyone can see that he has started to share your religious beliefs.” “Which would be incredible, since I don’t have religious beliefs.” See? This is Amaram approaching Jasnah from the perspective of a theist. But Jasnah is an atheist. She has no beliefs. God does not exist. So how is she convincing anyone to share her beliefs? She does not have any. I think that is all the main ones. There may be more. But in summation, I think the logic of @agrabes and @Debarra in discussing Jasnah as an atheist is faulty. We are asking what Jasnah, as an atheist, would do in view of these entities. So to answer that question, you must approach the question as an atheist. If you approach it as a theist, you get Dalinar. For Dalinar, if this is not god, then what is god? That golden light feels right. It feels like what I think god is. So the golden light is god. For Jasnah, if you approach it as an atheist, and you show something that is not god. She goes ok. It isn't god. God doesn't exist, so what is revolutionary about that? All you did was prove that this god is not god. This god was not god to Jasnah when other people thought it was god. It is still not god now that the people that thought it was god, no longer think it is god. edit: ok here is an idea. Maybe if I break it down for you both this way 1. Assertion: God does not exist 2. Vorinism states that: Almighty exists. The Almighty is all powerful. He is all knowing. He is eternal. The Almighty is God. He will hear you if you burn glyphs in prayer 3. Jasnah: God does not exist. So the Almighty cannot be God. The Almighty can show up, be all powerful, all knowing, and eternal, and that entity is still not God. Because god does not exist. 4. It is revealed that the Almighty is Honor. Honor is not all powerful. He is not all knowing. He is not eternal. And since he is dead, he is not hearing your glyph prayers. 5. All this has proven is that those that believed the Almighty is all powerful, all knowing, and eternal is false. He is none of those things. 6. The people that believed Vorinism can then either choose to seek god in another manner (alter their vorin beliefs so they still stand as true for themselves, or seek an entirely new religion), or become an atheist and believe there is no god. 7. Either way, Jasnah is still an atheist. Nothing changed. God does not exist. The Almighty's stature in his followers view changing, does not affect Jasnah. It affects the followers of Vorinism because their belief structure is false, but not Jasnah. The Almighty was never god to Jasnah regardless its stature to those that worship it.

See I am confused now. I thought you said you were not trying for a gotcha moment? That the point was to see how Jasnah would react to the shards? Because we have all referenced what she has said numerous times. So now you are saying Jasnah does not believe what she said she believed? You are telling her how she is allowed to be an atheist? And thereby stating what you believe atheism is, thereby saying she is wrong? Jasnah very clearly stated what her atheism is to her. So we can very clearly see how she would confront such issues. We know how Jasnah is an atheist based on what she says she views atheism is. that is faulty because it conflicts with what Jasnah herself has said. No this has cleared up nothing because as I have said we see from Jasnah's own mouth how she sees atheism, which I believe the problem is how you approach religion. I will clarify below Again your phrasing is the problem. I will explain below Again the question you are posing is the problem. it is not accurate This logic is faulty to an atheist Ok lets see if this will make sense. Let us say I am a vegen. I don't eat meat or any meat by products. You say well what about chicken? I say no. You say what about eggs? I say no. You say well what about some dish that I have never heard of? I say no. You say well how can I say no when I have never seen nor tried said dish? And I say, because I am vegan. That help? You keep saying that a non belief in god, means that it is stating that there is criteria that would result in belief in god and that that criteria has just not be presented yet. That is not how it works. There will not be a moment that if you say Allah instead of God that will suddenly change things. That if the deity has three eyes instead of two, that changes things. That is the whole point of the spaghetti monster in the sky. It equates to the same thing to an atheist. Whether a all powerful being or not exists is immaterial, it is useless. It does not deserve her worship or her care. You may think a deity can create morals or math, but she does not. So whether the deity exists or not is immaterial. She is not questing for a god that fits some rule brick. She does not need "god" by how you or anyone defines it. When people try to convert her, she explains why. She does not need a god to pray to to feel better at night. She does not need a god to pray to to know right from wrong. She does not need "god". And further trying to define god in the way you suggest is disingenuous because it then claims that some other religion is invalid. Because invariably there will be a religion where that definition of god does not apply. If you say that god is an all powerful being, and is only one, then that is you claiming that polytheistic religions are not valid to those that believe that. If you define god as a force beyond that does not take a direct hand, then that is claiming that some monotheistic religions are not valid to those that believe that. Jasnah has said that if the religion brings other people peace, then good for them. It does not for her. So it is not her "god". Jasnah does not "have" a "god. So god does not "exist". Jasnah simply does not believe, what is so hard about that? Or another tact. Religion as a function is useless to Jasnah. Thereby any manifestation of religion is useless to her. So any religious structure, or "belief" system does not fit for her. Because it is religion itself that she does not believe. The necessity of a higher power or entity. There isn't one for her. That is why you trying to come up with a definition for god is useless. It does not matter what the name is, how it is worshiped, what it teaches, whether it can come up and say hi, or blow up the whole universe, or never appears. There will never be a permutation to solve for. It is the equivalency of the question to atheists of what will they do if they die, and meet "god"? What would they do? And Stephen Fry, and Andy Gervais answer that pretty easily. Tell this "entity" what the storms is wrong with it? There is no sudden recanting. There is no sudden oh no I was wrong. This being is not god. It is a being. It has power. So what?

That is a common misunderstanding and oversimplification of atheism. 18thshard did a pretty good job but here I go. Atheism is generally accepted as the non belief in deities. So if Jasnah is an atheist, then therefore she does not believe in any deities So therefore she chooses to not worship the Vorin god. The Almighty could or could not be real, that does not make it a being she would worship because she sees no reason to worship such a being She has learnt that Honor is a Vorin god, the almighty, and despite the teachings of the religion stating that Honor is all powerful, she learns he is dead and not the only one. That there exists other entities like it, at its same level of power Jasnah who would not have worshiped the entity known as the almighty to begin with, continues to not worship the dead individual that held the shard. Jasnah is not expecting anything other than her own sense of morality, mathematics, and understanding. These exist outside any entity claiming to be god, or labeled as god by other people. Because these exist outside any such entity, such entity is not necessary, and certainly does not need to be worshiped.

No problem I will quote you below where you said it She never contended its existence or non existence. She literally stated that she feels no compunction to worship said entity

She never asserted such entities do not exist. She merely asserts they are of no use to her, and she holds no compunction to worship or make them happy. Rshara and I have quoted her saying as much.

Actually a more apt comparison would be saying if you dislike sports you will dislike football. If you dislike meat you will dislike chicken as well. The core ideals from the perspective of an atheist are the same. Both seek salvation and both have a monotheistic god. Just because the name of the god is different does not change that. If she acknowledges the potential existence of an all powerful deity found in vorinism and states she does not need such a god, nor have any inclination to worship said god, then why would by changing the name, but still presenting an all powerful deity would her answer change? As to the evidence requirement you are claiming: “I simply claim that morality and human will are independent of him too.” “If you say that,” the king said, chuckling, “then you’ve removed all purpose for the Almighty’s existence!” “Indeed.” and And what I feel is that spending my life trying to earn the favor of an unseen, unknown, and unknowable being who watches me from the sky is an exercise in sheer futility The deity can exist. It can go up to her and say hi, but that still does not mean she feels any compunction to worship it, or spending her life trying to make it happy. The deity for her has no purpose. And that would stand for monotheistic, polytheistic, animalism, naturalism, philosophical, and so on

Both religious analogues are present on Roshar and actually both religions (Christianity and Islam) are quite similar on many many levels. They both believe in a creator god. They both are monotheistic. They both view their deity as the sole deity that is all powerful. They both have creation myths. They both hold holy days They both require worship and prayer (in manners and practice that are quite similar). They both have a religious structure that include priests and religious leaders (also quite similar). They both have a holy book (very similar in structure). They both have religious "laws" and "morals" (both very similar). My point is every permutation of religion is present on Roshar. There are ones that treat the almighty as monotheistic, benevolent and as an ultimate all powerful. There are ones that worship the heralds thereby being polytheistic and are mortals with great power. There are ones that worship a monotheistic god that is benevolent, but have to pay lip service to the adversarial god. There are religions that worship spren. Religions that are philosophical and based on emotions. There are religions that believe everyone are pieces of god and will be united one day. There are religions that worship the stormfather, an entity/power with sapience. There are religions that worship a great shell. And so on So I do not see how there can be a religion that Jasnah has not already considered and found wanting when she herself says she has researched Roshar's religions and found them not for her. edit: a means of clarification that hopefully will not be taken offensively. Just calling a monotheistic god a different name does not make it a different religion when considered by an atheist. Having a holy day on a different day does not make it a different religion when in regards to an atheist. Having a different food that one must abstain from does not make it a different religion. If both say "thou shalt not kill", why is it different because the name of the deity is different, or the wording is different? Both has a monotheistic deity, that is an all powerful god that must be worshiped alone. Just like Vorinism, which Jasnah has discounted. As well as the one that only worships the stormfather. Or the one that they worship the deity behind closed doors. The motions may be different, but the core tenants are the same. edit2: oh yeah! and Azir with the prime aqueix (or however it is spelled). Reincarnation. Buddism

Jasnah acknowledged beings like the heralds, the stormfather, and honor can exist. Just she has no compunction to worship them. So it has nothing to do with evidence of existing or non existence. She mentioned numerous religions on Roshar and that she researched them all. Of the list I put forward, all are contained in those religions in various permutations. So unless there is a religion that does not have a single trait among those 14 traits, Jasnah has already considered it and found it personally wanting.

I think this is a misnomer based on an assumption that does not apply. Jasnah has viewed many religions. Some of which do not have a classical "God" or "gods" in their structure, yet she still does not prescribe to them. They lack a definition of "God" or "gods" and yet they are still religions. I will further elaborate in my response to Debarra Hopefully this attempt will clarify. In order to find a religion that Jasnah would believe in, we must discount any religion that: 1. is monotheistic 2. is polytheistic 3. has a creator god 4. has a adversarial force 5. has spiritual beliefs 6. has nature beliefs 7. is philosophical 8. has reincarnation 9. has an after life 10. has a deity that is a mortal holding power 11. has a deity that is just pure power with sapience 12 has deities in mortal flesh 13. has deities that are natural forces given personification 14. has deities that are living creatures (animal) I think that covers all the religions on Roshar. If @agrabes or @Debarra can think of a religion either in the series or on earth that a single aspect on this list does not apply to, please let me know because I am pretty sure that covers all of them. But I can always cross reference whatever you present with the religions on Roshar and I think I can confidently state that an aspects probably exists there and has been discounted by Jasnah. So "X" is unsolvable.

Jasnah listed the religions on Roshar. Among them are the analogues of religions on our planet. None of those religions, including religions that worship shards, as well as the being Dalinar thinks is god causes her to have any inclination to worship. Can you provide a religion that does not exist, that does something different or has a different structure than all the world religions that currently exist? The heralds are cognitive shadows and have done all of the above Spren are immortal and have created new life in the form of more spren What is Dalinar's definition of God? What is Navani's definition of God? What is Kaladin's definition of God? We have a theist, a orthodox believer, and an agnostic. What are their definitions? Jasnah has made it clear that religion as it stands does not fit to her. Brandon said there would never be a proof that would prove or disprove the existence of god. Now before you ignore that, let me explain again why I wrote that again. If there is the variable X. And we have solved for A through Z sans X, and the author has stated there will never be an X, then how through discussion can be possibly figure out what X is? The author says X does not exist. So there is no definable way to solve for X. That help? And that stands for Dalinar as well.

By stating you are looking for "x" that would have Jasnah say god exists, that is the "gotcha!" moment. I edited my post before you posted to include the analogue with Dalinar. Then tell me what it would take for Dalinar to renounce God. That God does not exist. It will not happen. Brandon confirmed it will not happen. It will not happen. Brandon confirmed it will not happen Brandon confirmed there will never be proof that God exists or does not exist. So "x" will never occur for Dalinar nor Jasnah. Read the books. They can transfer from one place to another instantaneously transcending space and time. They can create matter out of nothing. It will never happen Every religion on our planet is represented on Roshar. Monotheism and polytheism. Jasnah has researched them all, and is an atheist. What is difficult about the concept that just because other people may term something a god, does not mean she will? Neither theism or atheism will be confirmed in the cosmere. That is the whole point.

Exactly. Especially when Brandon intends for magitech to be a thing. So one day anyone will be able to use gravitation, progression, etc. Everyone will be "god"

Jasnah knows the Almighty based on Vorin beliefs. She knows of the other religions on Roshar. She has been to the cognitive realm, and has spoken to the highspren. At no point after this did Jasnah ever state "hey i changed my mind!". To Jasnah, the shards are beings with power. Not something to be worshiped. So she defines herself as an atheist. What I am trying to get across is for Jasnah there is a difference between "God I worship" and "beings with power". Jasnah is a being with power. She has powers other people do not have, but that does not make her worthy of worship. Someone who knows how to make fire next to cave men who did not know at the time will seem as a god to them. Perspective to me and Jasnah does not make deity hood. Capitalize or not, if anyone can pick up a shard and become a "god" then no one is a god. Yeah that is no different than what I said. You are looking for the "gotcha!" moment. Brandon has stated that will never happen. edit: I will take this further and say let us apply the same rationale to another character. Dalinar. What is he looking for? What would it take for him to admit God does not exist? He sees Honor is dead, and thinks that is not god because he died. He then saw a light and thinks that is god. Odium shows a light, and Odium is like Honor. So why would this light be any different? What would it take for Dalinar to admit God does not exist? It will never happen, because Brandon confirmed it won't. He wants Dalinar to be able to believe there is god, and Jasnah to believe there is not, and both be equally right. All five of those beings can do everything listed. They can create matter out of nothing. They use powers beyond space and time (spiritual). And they are immortal. Regardless still does not change as per Brandon, there will never be a "gotcha" moment. Brandon said there would be no "proof" of God. And the are like the celtics. So are the radiants. But Jasnah does not feel either should be worshiped. Which is why she terms herself an atheist. Yet again, there will be no "gotcha" moment. There will never be a piece of information that will prove the existence or non existence of "God" in the cosmere, as per the author.

In this case I disagree. I believe what the person is putting forward is: 1. what must be presented for Jasnah to recant her atheism and state God exists. The something the person is putting forward that she is looking for, is the "if this can be shown, then I will recant and state god exists", thereby having the "gotcha!" moment of "well this shard can do that, so that shard is god, so gotcha! you have to admit god exists!". The, Jasnah is looking for "x" and since she has not found "x" then god does not exist. That if she were to discover "x", then she would admit god exists. This is ultimately pointless because as I said, Brandon has gone on record saying that question will never be answered so that theists, agnostics, and atheists can all co-exist and be right at the same time. They will never know for sure. As for the rest of what you wrote, I will put forward again what I have twice now done so. Anyone can pick up a shard. They just need the know how. So I pick up a shard. I ascend. I literally just did it. Bow down to me and worship me for I am now your god. If someone irked me on the boards, I can use my cosmic powers to destroy them. Their family should bow down to me, and say "welp, thats an act of god. god is good". Forgetting that just moments ago I was an average mortal with average problems like anyone else, with nothing saying I was worthy or more able to decide people's lives. I have a shard. I am immortal. I have power. So I am God and should be worshiped?

So I get a shard. Are you supposed to worship me? Are you now going to call me God? Just because I ascended. I haven't done a thing good or bad with it yet. I literally just picked it up. Am I now your God? Fall to your knees and pray to me?

I think this is important. This "gotcha" moment. We already know from Brandon there will never be an absolute proof of an ultimate deity or not. There never will be a gotcha moment. So why are there threads after threads trying to find the "gotcha" moment for Jasnah? There never will be one. The author of the series said so himself.

So you were replying about me saying Joe Schmoe, but tagged Honorless. Were you responding to me or Honorless? If responding to me, the power itself has no sapience (unless it lacks a holder, and even then that is rare as per Brandon). So the power itself is an undirected force. As I mentioned earlier, Jasnah knows of the religions on Roshar, and none of them hold any appeal to her. So worshiping forces that are naturally part of the cosmere such as gravity, holds no appeal to her. Worshiping power that has gained sapience (such as the stormfather) holds no appeal to her. Worshiping a fallible individual who just happen to get their hands on a whole ton of power, also holds no appeal to her. (I understand you yourself do not hold such a perspective, I was replying to the point being made)

Why must there be something that is God? In the quote Jasnah acknowledges such beings with power may exist, but she has no reason to worship them. Why must she be looking for something? What has been presented her is not sufficient. Why must she be looking for something? The list I provided all use power beyond time and space, can all create planets, and are all immortal. You also did not answer my assertion. If joe schmoe can attain a shard and ascend, why should Joe Schmoe be worshiped. If I got my hands on a shard, would you be expected to worship me? Call me God?

Beings in the cosmere that are immortal, powerful and can move planets but are not shards number five and that is just off the top of my head And anyone with the right knowledge can get a shard and ascend. So if joe schmoe can just as easily become a shard, then why should joe be worshipped?

At what metric does power equal godhood? The radiants? Cosmere spoilers If power and immortality are the only requirements of "godhood" then a large chunk of our cast can go under that title. Power and immortality that anyone can attain. If anyone theoretically can attain such levels, then what is unique about "godhood"? Why should anyone who attains such levels be worshiped? They are no better than anyone else. They just figured out the how before anyone else.

Anything the mistborn would do to someone with wearing metal is still limited by the mistborn's weight, and amount of burnable metals. Hazekillers can take out mistborn. But I do not think that matters concerning a radiant as it takes a duralumin push to affect "mundane" or "dead" shardplate and blade. Radiant shardplate and blade can be summoned and dismissed instantly. So using a duralumin push or pull which will exhaust whatever metals you are burning at the time, just when a radiant can dismiss it ending the push or pull, and then summon it right back I think would be counter productive. Anyone with abilities can be effective in an army or fighting an enemy army for the simple fact you have an ability that the enemy does not. The point made via WoB is that mistborn are more suited, and typically trained to assassinate rather than fight one to one. That radiants powers and abilities are more built towards fighting open in warfare. I respect your opinion, but based on their abilities and capabilities, I disagree. I already responded to this. Please refer to my earlier posts. When a radiant brings forth stormlight, the beads flow towards them. The beads want the stormlight willingly. This still in my mind goes under the whole "what if" issue I have with these posts. a meteor could drop killing the radiant. Does that mean the mistborn wins? I do not see the purpose of such conjecture when I feel we are discussing the abilities of the combatants. But to each their own. What does that have to do with travel to the spiritual? Just about everything has a physical presence, a cognitive presence, and a spiritual presence. Some beings lack one of the three, but I do not see why the oathgate would. It has a presence in the physical, the cognitive, and the spiritual. As you have said before, we know this how? Why is red red? Why is the sky blue? What does personal hatred have to do with judging the abilities of the combatants? Again as you have said before, we know this how? Why? Where was he traveling from? What did he have to travel over to get there? That is why I am at a loss as to why any of that is relevant. I could say the radiant started to travel first. I could say the mistborn was starting from an island and had to wait for the boat to sail and then dock. I could say Unicorns flew by and killed both mistborn and radiant with rainbow lasers shooting out of their buts. I do not see the relevance these questions have to ascertaining the combatant capabilities of mistborn versus other magic systems.

Could you provide the reference or WoB that shows that Connection is what makes an allomancer strong or not? Not saying you are right or wrong, just that is the first I am hearing of it so would be interested in hearing more.