Pathfinder

Brandon's answer about being able to push and pull atium Chaos Is atium Invested? Brandon Sanderson Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it-- Chaos Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle. Brandon Sanderson Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness. The writerly answer is there is lots of weirdness because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow, right? So the writerly answer is we just have to accept that atium and lerasium and some of these other distilled Investiture things are going to play very weirdly with the magic systems. But that's okay. Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together. Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

So there is a lot we do not know. For myself, and myself alone, based on WoB I have read, hemalurgy damages whoever is spiked (both ripped from, and stapled to). Even with a willing donor, you are harming the person it is taken from and it is given to. The brief time they are existent before passing to the beyond (not saying there is a beyond, just using that term for the discorporation of the investiture of the person in the cognitive realm) you can see them torn up. Harmony does not like hemalurgy and wished the knowledge to be lost. So I believe once the denizens of Scadrial realize what happens to you after you are spiked, they will not be as inclined to volunteer.

No problemo. Otherwise I do not see anything to comment on. Good work and I wish you luck!

No problem. yes it is. ad nauseam - referring to something that has been done or repeated so often that it has become annoying or tiresome (to clarify not meaning me repeating it was due to me being annoyed with you. I mean me writing it once again is going to annoy everyone else because of how many times I have written it)

Totally respect your thoughts. I agree the citizen lacks the necessary skills and charisma to organize an effective rebellion. I just disagree that Kelsier has to kill the guards because of who he is, and that the guards death were necessary for the rebellion to be successful. I see them as separate things. But I have already stated as much ad nauseam, so no point going into it again. I respect how you feel about Kelsier. To each their own.

Interesting WoB below regarding using transportation Questioner So, Jasnah has the same shape appear around her as when she first appears out of Shadesmar at the end of that-- At the end of the second book, when she appears out of Shadesmar, she has the same shape appear around her as she does in the last battle, but we never see her do anything (this is about Transportation) And we saw people flying away beforehand. Can you-- Does Transportation allow you to push other people. Similar to Lashings, but kinda differently. I'm just wondering if you can use it on other people, basically? Brandon Sanderson You can, but it's not what you’re thinking. Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

My wife and I are having trouble getting into it. We watched the first episode, then dropped it. Then we heard all the hype and felt to give it another go and watched episode 2. We keep feeling there are the occasional good moments, or little things we enjoy, but overall we are having trouble caring about the characters. We are interested in Yennifer, but for my wife she couldn't care less about Geralt. She feels he has no motivation. No reason why he does what he does. He just kills monsters. Back when the video games came out, I gave the book a shot and didn't enjoy it. So I explained to her the situation with Geralt and why he is doing what he is doing, and she feels missing that information is making the narrative feel lacking. We may give a third episode a shot because she is curious about Yennifer, but the drops about things like "conduit" feels like it should have a bigger shock value or meaning than what comes across. I do know what conduits are, but it still does not feel weighty enough for the way it is presented. The eel girls are conduits. In my wife's words "so?". Basically having trouble getting immersed in it.

It was not my intention to say that. My point was those troops could have just as easily contained people like Ham and Clubs, and that the only reason they weren't is the time period. The situation. Had the environment been different, Kelsier could have been killing Ham and Clubs. It is because of the circumstance that Kelsier got to meet Ham and Clubs when they had left their past occupations, and get to know them. It is because of that, that they did not end up on Marsh's list. A list that Kelsier barely gave a glance and then threw away.

Doing a search on lashing shows the first instance I found Kaladin use it was on page 601 of Words of Radiance. He says he heard Szeth use the term.

So just in case for clarity, the reason why I mentioned it, is because it could support your theory. That as you said, it is a concept he clearly understands, and has thought about. Didn't want you to think I was disagreeing with you, or mentioning it to say you were using incorrect terminology or anything.

So this list is also in regards to past responses to my statement in other threads so I am just doing so for completeness, not to prove any point. I believe not having powers does not exclude you from having a strong narrative, nor do I believe having powers guarantees you a strong narrative. I do not believe not having powers excludes you from having PoVs, nor do I believe having powers guarantees that you have PoVs. I do not believe not having as many PoVs excludes you from having a good narrative, nor do I believe having more PoVs guarantees you a good narrative. I do not believe to survive/be effective in a desolation you have to have powers. And I do not believe you will die/be ineffective in a desolation if you do not have powers. I do not believe if you have combat focused powers that you can only use them in combat and thereby be central. I do not believe non combat powers to be ineffective, and prevents someone from being in combat and being central. I do not feel someone with either combat focused powers or non combat focused powers have to be in combat to be effective, and I do not feel they have to be in combat to have a narrative. So this list of characters I believe supports these statements. Having said that, totally get and respect that there is a narrative you would like to see and prefer to enjoy. I will go into that regarding Minimanmax1 Characters we have met so far in Stormlight with no to limited powers Navani - doesn't have powers, uses fabrial tech, has PoVs and Rhythm of War Spoilers Sebarial - has no powers, very effective in running his princedom, and is an important part of the war effort/council Fen - has no powers, very effective in ruling her country. Spoken to and treated as an equal to Dalinar. Very important to the war effort/council Lirin - has no powers, Rhythm of War spoilers Ehsonai - had no powers except shardplate. Very effective, and had PoVs Kadash - has no powers. Still important to the narrative. Laral - has no powers. Still effective, and spoilers for Rhythm of War Characters that either have powers not combat focused but are still effective, have abilities that are combat focused but not central to story, or limited ability but still very effective Dalinar - has powers that are not focused on combat. Has a whole book about him, and politics. Lift - has powers that have a semi combat focus. She is not a focus character currently. Very few PoVs Jasnah - has powers, not typically thought as combat focused but still very effective in combat. Not a focus character currently. Very few PoVs Malata - has powers, powers are very focused on combat. Only one PoV Venli - has a limited ability. Still very effective across the first three books. Very few PoVs Taravangian - has a limited ability. Ability is not combat focused at all. Still very effective and has PoVs Mraize - seemingly no clear personal powers. Still very effective. In fact the entire organization that is the Ghostbloods could theoretically fall into this catagory Iylatl - seemingly no clear powers. Still very effective Characters from other Cosmere works with either no powers, or limited powers who are still very effective, or central to the books they are in. This includes spoilers for Sixth of Dusk, Mistborn (all the books), Elantris, Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell, Emperor's Soul, Warbreaker, Whitesand I did not reply initially to this, as these are not my own theories so I felt it was not my place to explain them. Since no one has come forward, and Traveler asked me to elaborate on my earlier statement, I will attempt to list all the theories (including Adolin getting powers, Adolin getting a degree of powers, Adolin getting no powers) that I am aware of. I will to the best of my ability present them as well as I can even when they are not my own. Not saying I do not support them, just I happen to like my own theory best. If I misrepresent anyone's theories, please feel free to correct me and I will edit this, and I apologize in advance. As this will take a moment to type up, I will come back and add the list of theories. Give me like 20 minutes. edit: Ok here we go in order from Adolin getting powers, to Adolin having different/less powers, to Adolin getting no powers 1. Adolin respects his blade. The reason this has never lead to reviving a dead shardblade before is Adolin got to travel to the cognitive realm and meet Maya. This resulted in him truly understanding her as a living sapient being and changed his cognitive view of her. Nothing was truly "ripped" out of Maya. Her cognitive self missing the physical connection via the radiant has forced her into this seeming reduced and physically limited forced state. This altered view and bond allows him to then revive Maya. 2. Adolin strengthened his faux bond with the shardblade. This is the reason for feeling urging from Maya. Dalinar had the same with Oathbringer. The reason for the reduced heartbeats, and the whispered name is due to the realms having been brought together. Dalinar using his investiture and connection powers funnels investiture through Adolin's scaffolding of his strengthened faux bond, heals and restores what was ripped out of Maya, allowing her to be revived. The reason this has not happened in the past was because there has not been a bondsmith in centuries 3. Spren are more "physical" in the cognitive realm. Hemalurgy (which requires touching flowing blood) can work directly on a spren in the cognitive realm. Surges can work directly on a spren in the cognitive realm. The theory is that Renarin in the cognitive realm can use regrowth to heal what was ripped out of Maya restoring her. The reason this has not happened in the past was because there has not been a Truthwatcher (theoretically) in centuries. Potentially this can either result in a full revival and normal spren, or because of Renarin using his surge to restore Maya, what is healed is different or has "scar tissue" resulting in a reduced bond. 4. Sja-anat can "enlighten" lesser spren. Sja-anat stated she never enlightened something as great as the oathgate spren before. This is despite seemingly having enlightened glys which is a radiant spren. Sja-anat can use her corruption powers to infuse the missing chunk of Maya with her investiture. This would revive Maya as a corrupted spren. This is theoretically how Glys was made. That Glys was also a dead spren that Sja-anat healed via her corruption 5. Adolin via respecting his blade revives Maya but not fully. This is because there is a chunk of Maya missing that cannot be restored as the original knight radiant bonded to her is dead. Adolin either (as there are a few theories branching out from this) a. can summon her faster, and speak with her, but does not gain any further abilties b. can summon her faster, and has limited surge usage c. fills what was torn out of her with his own spirit web in a reverse nahel bond, resulting in weaker powers, or completely different powers 6. Adolin cannot fully awaken Maya as the chunk that was ripped out of her is unable to be restored. The urging he felt from her earlier is from the shardblade bond, which Dalinar also experienced with Oathbringer. The reduced number of heartbeats and name was due to the cognitive realm being close. No awakening is actually taking place. Adolin as highprince and leader of the kholin princedom leads mundane humans against the voidbringers during the desolation, using technology and strategy to be effective against the looming threat.

Not sure if you watched Brandon's three live streams, but I think it was either the second or the third (I am leaning towards the third), where he mentions an economic principle (forgot the name), that describes what you were referring to in delegation. That if you are really good at making straw hats, and good at making straw baskets, while another person is poor at making straw hats, and ok at making straw baskets, it still numerically comes out to be more beneficial for you to focus on making straw hats and the other person focus at making straw baskets, than you doing both because you are still better at both than the other person. He mentions it was one of his favorite principles in economics. So maybe that was in the back of his mind at the time?

Thank you!

Because to me, it would be even worse Kelsier killing people who were conscripted without any say, and Kelsier not caring about it. Killing them anyway. So I thought to clarify it was their choice. Their reasoning could be "pure" but they chose. I was helping you in a way. Yep, and how did he feel once he got to know them? Once he was confronted with their nature?

Because it is people just trying to make the best of a bad situation. They weren't representing the establishment. They weren't running around with signs going "go lord ruler". Some of them just did it to make a buck, either for themselves, or their families. Respectfully I disagree. The idea was not face the garrison directly. By the time they got back, since they were mercenaries, they would either have the money to bribe them, thereby owning the army and allowing them to hold luthadel better, or from a position of power defending fortifications. I really genuinely don't recall Kelsier ever saying he wanted the garrison to be spared so as to reduce the loss of lives on the garrison's side. His own side? Sure! Of course he wouldn't want his own troops to get massacred. But I don't recall reading anything altruistic in that. But thats just me. Right. I never said otherwise. I said he jumped in to kill indiscriminately the enemy. If that happened years ago, Clubs and potentially Ham (unless he was on a guard job), would have been among the soldiers attacking the skaa. Had Kelsier ran down there, he would have killed them. Go back however many years, and Clubs and Ham would have been among the Lord Ruler's troops in that instance. Kelsier would have tried to kill them. Kelsier said he expected Breeze and even Ham to be lead along wherever the wind may blow, but he was surprised about Dockson. That Dockson would be ruled by such a person. Dockson hated Elend and did all he could to avoid him. If you give me a little bit I can bring up the quotes. "Elend, nobody expects you to be Kelsier" "Oh?" he said "That's why Dockson doesn't like me. He hates noblemen; it's obvious in the way that he talks, the way he acts. I don't know if I really blame him, considering the life he's known. Regardless, he doesn't think I should be king. he thinks that a skaa should be in my place - or, even better, Kelsier. They all think that" "That's nonsense, Elend" "Really? And if Kelsier still lived, would I be king? Vin paused The quote above is pretty big to me, But this is the big one I was thinking of: Dockson looked away "I know that. But.....well, everytime I talk to him, i see Kelsier standing over his shoulder, shaking his head at me. Do you know how long Kell and I dreamed of toppling the Lord Ruler? The other crewmembers, they thought Kelsier's plan was a new found passion - something that came to him in the Pits. But it was older than that, Vin. Far older. We always hated the nobility, Kell and I. When we were youths, planning our first jobs, we wanted to be rich - but we also wanted to hurt them. Hurt them for taking from us things they had no right to. My love...Kelsier's mother.... every coin we stole, every nobleman we left dead in an alleyway - this was our way of waging war. Our way of punishing them" Vin sat quietly. It was these kinds of stories, these memories of a haunted past, that had always made her just a little uncomfortable with Kelsier - and with the person he had been training her to become. It was this sentiment that gave her pause, even when her instincts whispered that she should go and exact retribution on Straff and Cett with knives in the knight Dockson held some of that same hardness. Kell and Dox weren't evil men, but there was an edge of vengefullness to them. Oppression had changed them in wasy that no amount of peace, reformation, or recompense could redeem. Dockson shook his head "And we put one of them on the throne. I can't help but think that Kell would be angry with me for letting Elend rule, no matter how good a man he is" "kelsier changed at the end" Vin said quietly "You said it yourself, Dox. Did you know that he saved Elend's life? Dockson turned, frowning "When?" "On the last day" Vin said "During the fight with the Inquisitor. Kell protected Elend, who came looking for me" "Must have thought he was one of the prisoners" Vin shook her head "He knew who Elend was, and knew that I loved him. In the end, Kelsier was willing to admit that a good man was worth protecting, no matter who his parents were" "i find that hard to accept, Vin" "Why?" Dockson met her eyes "Because if I accept that Elend bears no guilty for what his people did to mine, then I must admit to being a monster for the things that I did to them" Vin shivered. In those eyes, she saw the truth behind Dockson's transformation. She sazw the death of his laughter. She saw the guilt. The murders "I can find little joy in this government Vin" Dockson said quietly "Because I know what we did to create it. The thing is, I'd do it all again. I tell myself it's because I believe in skaa freedom. i still lie awake at nights, however, quietly satisfied for what we've done to our former rulers. Their society undermined, their god dead. Now they know"

I know Lift can see it because she is closer to the cognitive realm, but I don't recall the skybreakers being able to. Could you link the scene? Genuinely asking. Not trying to prove a point. (not that I ever ask that with the intention of proving a point, but I have been trying to make my intentions clearer of late)

This is why as I said I think we are talking pass each other. Totally respect that you believe Kelsier is better off killing those guys. Personally I do not. And I think I adequately related why I believe such, so I don't really see the point of repeating myself here. Except they were not conscripted. And I stated before I do not believe killing or not killing would change anything. The only difference is potentially a skaa with a family, just trying to get by, could still be alive. I also think I presented pretty well why I think Kelsier was perfectly capable of accomplishing his goals realistically without killing those guards. But I have already said it at length, and I do not see what repeating myself again would accomplish. Because if they did come into conflict, the skaa troops who were barely trained and outnumbered would be slaughtered. So they aimed to deflect the garrison till they could secure a situation where they would not have to fight them at all, thus avoiding being wiped out. Yeden, getting full of the survivor spirit, thought they could take them head on, and they got wiped out. That (to me) had nothing to do with Kelsier attempting to preserve life of the garrison soldiers who were potentially skaa. And in this thread I stated that I believed Kelsier had monstrous tendencies that were determinate on the situation he was in. And that if he could be considered a villain in other circumstances, then that offers commentary on his character. But Kelsier did do that. Multiple times. The only difference is we don't know them. I gave the example that if Kelsier did his thing years ago (so assuming he could be the same age, same powers, etc) everything the same for Kelsier but it was earlier in the time line, then those people Kelsier killed would include Ham, Clubs, and Breeze. The people he risked would have included Dockson. He would not have known them then. Ham would be working the protection gig for nobles. Protecting either individuals or supplies. Clubs would have been leading troops. Breeze would have been at nobles parties. Dockson would have been working the plantation. The only difference to me is they met Kelsier after they had a chance to change what they had been doing. They had a chance for Kelsier to get to know them as a thieving crew. Theoretically any of those skaa guards could have ended up the same. Kelsier will never know. But because they were there, they deserved to die. ? I think you misunderstood what scene I was speaking about. I meant the one where Yeden sent them at the army too early and they got wiped out. Kelsier wanted to jump in and kill them indiscriminately. Vin stopped him. And based on my reading of Kelsier I disagree. The only reason Kelsier saved Elend (to me) was because of Vin. After he died and found out Elend is now the ruler, he says he saved Elend "against my better judgement". That says to me Kelsier felt killing all nobles is the right idea. That he went against this right idea for Vin, and then he follows with saying he regretted it. Kelsier has never struck me as the time that would hold back from finishing someone when they go "please don't kill me!". But again, that is just my reading. As I said I really feel we are just talking past each other at this point. You have stated very clearly how you feel and why. I just disagree, which is ok. I can disagree with you. I can not be convinced by you, and it be ok.

Well in the guards case we do know for a fact that some were skaa with families just trying to make ends meet. Marsh had a list of the names and gave it to Kelsier. The rest I am confused? As I said, I personally do not see how that guard had to die in order for the immediate mission to be accomplished, and for the rebellion to be successful. You do, and I totally respect that. Just I do not. I feel like now we are just repeating ourselves at this point. I feel like we had this discussion a few posts ago. You argued it would be more intensive and risky. I argued causing an alarm to go off and alerting the entire facility is more intensive and risky. For myself Kelsier would potentially not have even run into the hazekillers. He could have gotten in, got the atium, killed specifically targeted nobles, and got out. The only difference for me is the individuals that I feel did not have to die, would not have died. That help? I guess we are talking past each other, because I thought I mentioned in the last post that I never said not kill anyone. I was saying the guards didn't have to be killed. That Kelsier could have targeted specific nobles, and got the atium, and still been successful in his goals. That Kelsier chose the bloody route. The bloody route to me was not his only option. For myself it changes it from a passive action, to an active one. Yeah the example you gave I believe had a specific purpose that I will go into below. So that does not read to me as Kelsier justifying deaths to achieve his goals. The quote I provided felt pretty clear to me that in Kelsier's mind killing nobles is good, and if anyone gets caught in the crossfire, ah well their problem. Marsh gets upset at him for being so cavalier. The reason, from what I recall, was because they were concerned they would lose a lot of lives trying to take the garrison with the small amount of skaa soldiers they could organize. That by luring the Garrison out, they could take the city without a shot fired as it were. They could then man the walls and hold off the garrison soldiers because they would be in a better position. They would be defending a fortified structure rather than assaulting one. To me that only had to do with not needlessly wasting your own men on a meat grinder. Again, just my own reading, but I thought that was the point of Elend? Kelsier's revolution was to be an analogue to the french revolution where every rose up and killed any of the aristocracy. That led to a haphazard government, with even more people starving and dying. Elend speaks about all of this. Elend is the one that sought a peaceful transition. This is further carried out later in one of the outlying cities. I forget the name. But one of the skaa takes over, extolling the survivors virtues and killed any of the nobility and everyone associated with the nobility in the city. Ruin plays on this and pushes the leader further. It becomes the french "Reign of Terror", but on Scadrial. Can I ask when I stated these people were monstrous? By all means please quote me, because I genuinely cannot recall stating as much. Ham did work protection jobs as a thug because they are in high demand. So Ham would have been (to me) definitely killable for Kelsier. Clubs rose relatively high in the military structure. Had Vin not stopped Kelsier, he would have run down and taken on the army. The army which had it been another time, Clubs would have been leading part of. Again (to me) definitely killable to Kelsier. Kelsier killed indiscriminately prior to the house war getting in full swing. So Breeze very well could have died at Kelsier's hands. Had Elend chose to stay to try and help minimize deaths (which he did do). Had Elend not met and got involved with Vin, despite Elend helping, I do not think it is a stretch at all to think that Kelsier would have killed Elend without pause.

Well not to spoil anything, but the first three are their own self contained thing, and the second three are their own self contained thing. So its not a heist caper throughout all 6.

So reviewed it briefly, but my one comment is the order in which the radiants gain their surges. As per WoB, it is not a hard and fast rule, and it was originally intended more as a literary device, and some individuals may learn or be better in a different order, but usually it works like this: truthwatcher 1. progression 2. illumination lightweaver 1. illumination 2. transformation elsecaller 1. transformation 2. transportation willshaper 1. transportation 2. cohesion stoneward 1. cohesion 2. tension bondsmith 1. tension 2. adhesion windrunner 1. adhesion 2. gravitation skybreaker 1. gravitation 2. division dustbringer 1. division 2. abrasion edgedancer 1. abrasion 2. progression

Here is the scene for @ILuvHats Shadows of Self Page 348 It was done with deftness, but Wax had an advantage. He decreased his weight, filling his metalmind. As always, though the change was sometimes subtle, this increased his velocity. If he decreased his weight while in motion, he got a little burst of speed. He didn't know why

Lol though windrunners are also included in this. Brandon has stated that two windrunners can interpret the oaths in a different way and disagree on whether or not something is the right thing to do. Theoretically any order can have "good" guys and "bad" guys. Just some oaths lend a little more leeway than others. (only highlighting because it is a long WoB and the main part I am referring to is the end) Questioner It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere. Brandon Sanderson Depends on your definition of god. Questioner Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin Brandon Sanderson So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book. Questioner I was wondering how much- Brandon Sanderson But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place. Questioner The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard. Brandon Sanderson That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement. Questioner Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work? Brandon Sanderson Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not. Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

Just to clarify, I mentioned in a prior post that Kelsier could still kill the nobles and accomplish the same goal. The deaths I was saying that could be avoided, were the guards that he could have avoided. Basically I am saying Kelsier could have accomplished as much if not more from targeted assassinations on specific individuals, instead of wanton killings on his way to his goal. Right, and the guard would not have reacted had Kelsier snuck past instead of landing right next to him. In my opinion. That to me, could have been avoided and was not necessary. I personally do not feel it aided or harmed the rebellion. I feel it was a choice on Kelsier's part to conduct his mission in the way he did. Sun Tzu also said "Conceal your dispositions, and your condition will remain secret, which leads to victory; show your dispositions, and your condition will become patent, which leads to defeat." A coinshot by him or herself would be detected by a bronze seeker. Only a mistborn could enter. Use their powers, and go undetected. I guess, and as I said totally get you see things the way you do. Personally I see it as Kelsier feeling satisfied with a job well done. More nobles killed. When confronted that not all of them were nobles, he responds well they associated with them, so they were traitors and deserved to die like the rest. He did? Could you show me what he did? Honestly not trying to be obtuse. Genuinely asking. Because from what I recalled, he killed the noble. Told the villagers the noble is dead, and basically said good luck and left. The old man realized what that meant. He knew when the steel inquisition came, it would not matter what the villagers did. Had they confessed who did it, and remained good little skaa, the inquisition would still blame them and kill them all. So Kelsier set them up in an unwinnable situation. Either stay and certainly die, or run, and maybe, somehow, survive. When he next ran into the old man, Kelsier was surprised the villagers were still alive. He literally says as much. Now I get it, that's Kelsier's thing right? Radical independence. Push you into a situation and sink or swim. That's why I was confused when you said I wanted Kelsier executed like a dog. I never said that, nor called him that. What I do however think is that when the time and environment determines whether you live or die regarding Kelsier, concerns me. 1. Ham was a soldier employed by the lord ruler for a time. He also worked for the occasional noble as a thug to send money to his family. He eventually joined the underground, and hid his family. Remember, Ham's contact in the army tried to convince him to join up again, and said how he was missed. 2. Clubs was a higher up soldier employed by the lord ruler for a time. He got too old and retired and used the money he made to start up a shop to help skaa 3. Breeze was born a full blooded noble. Through various dealings and such he fell from grace and joined the thieving crews using his old contacts, pretending that his origin was actually a cover. 4. Dockson was a plantation skaa. For me, had Kelsier met any of them earlier, things would have ended very differently 1. Ham would be killed by Kelsier as a traitor to the skaa because he was either among the troops when Kelsier wanted to accomplish something, or because he happened to be on the manor when Kelsier went to get something, and killed Ham along the way 2. Clubs would be killed by Kelsier as a traitor to the skaa because he was among the troops, and relatively high up. 3. Breeze would have been killed because Breeze was a noble. 4. Dockson would have been abandoned with the rest after Kelsier killed the lord and left. Dockson would have had a 50/50 shot at getting away and hooking up with the rebellion. We see the guards as bad because they are part of the establishment. We love the crew because they are intrepid rebels trying to stop an evil overlord. But the guards and villagers could have just as easily been the crew, and once upon a time they were. So for all we know Kelsier killed multiple Hams, and Clubs, and Breezes. Kelsier gambled with the lives of multiple Docksons. Just we didn't get to know them yet. And we know this is true because Marsh confirms it. He has a list of names and says they have families, and they are just trying to make the best of a really crummy situation. Kelsier shrugs, and throws the paper away. Since the other comments you made I feel mis-represent what I was saying, I will try and break it down, and then I guess agree to disagree. I already stated I do not feel you can convince me, and my intention was not to convince you, but to explain how I feel about the subject. Kelsier to me has evil tendencies. Place him in an environment where he happens to point it in the general direction of the enemy and he is seen as a hero. Place him in an environment where he has to be more discerning, or understand the enemy, and he will be seen as a villain. To me this is not the equivalency of Dexter or Sherlock. Both are high functioning sociopaths that chose certain means in order to satisfy an issue, while being a productive member of society. Dexter only killed serial killers. So you can place Dexter in a myriad of situations, and he would still go through the same process. Research, locate, understand, execute. Sherlock has an ego that he is smarter than everyone else, and reduces the people around him to practically primates. Moriarty (at least on the BBC show) satisfies this by creating crimes, Sherlock satisfies this by solving them. He gets to prove he is better than everyone else, and still be a productive member of society. If you take Sherlock out and put him in a different situation, so long as he has a crime to solve, he is ok. That is one of the big dilemmas of the series. What happens to Sherlock when there aren't any crimes anymore to challenge him. Does he end up like Moriarty? Kelsier I feel is different. In that situation he is able to take actions that still result in the same goal, and it is seen as ok. But if you place him in another situation, and he still acts the same way, then he is the villain. That is the big thing for me. That is the fulcrum. Kelsier as he acts, to me, is not ok. He just happened to be in a scenario where people thought it was. Personally I think it could have been done another way, and that those deaths was a conscious decision on Kelsier's part. I understand how you feel. You have explained your view extensively and I really did read, and I really do understand. I just personally still disagree. Which is ok. I can understand what you are saying, and still disagree. To each their own.

So to be clear, everyone can think however they wish, have whatever opinion they want, and I respect it. For myself I theorize Dalinar as a bondsmith can infuse the faux bond that Adolin strengthened, using it like scaffolding, to restore what was ripped out. Now having said that, I do not believe Adolin would lose anything from not being a radiant. I do not believe he would die if he does not become one. I believe there are plenty of effective characters without powers throughout stormlight, as well as in other series that Brandon has written. I also do not believe the powers Adolin may or may not get have to be full radiancy, or completely offensive powers. The thing I love about Sanderson is he is amazing with his magic systems. A power that seemingly has no use whatsoever, can, when placed in the right hands and thought of the right way, can be incredibly effective. Finally since the magic system is going in the magitech direction, just because Adolin may or may not get radiant powers, does not preclude him from using fabrials and still being effective. Or just being effective being himself. I believe those that feel they would enjoy a narrative that would develop Adolin without powers would be just as much of an amazing read as if Adolin does gain powers. And Adolin would not have to necessarily live or die in either one to accomplish it. Otherwise, I will continue to believe my personal theory, and wish you all luck with yours!

Ok, but what was it supposed to be? I thought he was sending a message that another house attacked that house to get them fighting each other to cause a house war? That was the impression I got from the book. I don't recall being willing to kill people being part of it. Not trying to be snarky. Just genuinely answering I don't recall that in my reading. Regarding the guard, I was given the impression that kelsier did know he was there. the Guard was wearing metal, and Kelsier was burning steel and iron. Steel to push off the coin to lift him up towards the wall, and iron to pull on a metal part of a window to lift him the rest of the way. He then pulled on the guard's breast plate to leap towards him and slit his throat. I guess. Just personally I disagree. He could have tracked where the guard was based on the breast plate, and gotten past without him noticing, which would mean he would not have to kill anyone for time. He mentions a trap? He was warned by Dockson about the hazekillers, and reasoned he would run into them, but I do not recall him saying he actively wanted to run into them. But raising the alarm would bring all the soldiers on alert, which was the exact issue you mentioned before about killing just the noble and excluding the guard. That there would be all these allomancers. So wouldn't raising the alarm cause more problems not less? Still don't remember or understand why he would trigger the hazekillers on purpose. Deal with them if they show? Sure. But I don't recall Kelsier saying he specifically wanted the hazekillers to show up. The way he ends the scene says to me he was doing it just because he enjoyed killing noblemen and anyone associated with them. Not that he was doing that for any particular goal associated with the rebellion. He went for the atium Mistborn (would provide the page but again, I have a combined kindle version of the first three so it won't sink up to your version) No, this night was not a waste. Even if he hadn't found the atium, any night that ended with a group of dead noblemen was a successful one, in Kelsier's opinion He would not have been in that situation had he not created it (from my perspective) But Kelsier isn't one action. Earlier in the thread I listed multiple. For me this is a pattern. This is a trait of his. I also do not recall ever saying he was a thing to be destroyed without remorse or ethical complications. Just I would not want to be near and or follow such a man. For myself I would never know when the environment would bring out his worse, and result in me being on his wrong side at worse, or potentially a useful tool at best. Could he see me as a friend? Maybe? But how would I know? He is an excellent manipulator and liar, and from what I have seen has no compunctions between abandoning people to death (the villagers) and forgetting they exist, or setting someone up to die (the malcontent he tries to force Demoux to kill). Storms I could be the most well intentioned person, and if he reads what my life is as some way supporting someone he does not like, my life to me is forfeit. But I do not think at any point that I called for Kelsier's summary execution. Just keep him far far far away from me lol.