Pathfinder

That they are lol They can't outrun the arrows like in the beginning of way of kings. Those are standard or long bows that are fired in a arc to come down from above. That can be potentially "outrun". The bows the Parshendi use are short bows, fired straight. They fire in volleys which is why it is so lethal to bridgemen. As to why his men survived more often I will get to below This is pretty much it. The first time Kaladin ran at the front and bridge 4 lost the least men was because Kaladin was drawing the arrows to his hands unconsciously. Even then they lost men. The reason they did not lose as much, was because Kaladin also went back for three of them and did triage. Then Kaladin did the parshendi skeleton, and later the side carry. Both involved changing tactics for a specific group and ultimately would not have worked over all. First the parshendi skeleton would not have worked, because that is technically what the purpose of the bridge crews were to be originally. A sacrificial target. Secondly having small groups of men with parshendi skeleton, would result in the parshendi focusing so much, the men would die as well as the parshendi realizing the tactic (which is what happened, and why kaladin had to draw all the arrows to himself with his surgebinding, which a normal person would be unable to do). Finally the side carry already showed why it didn't work. It defeated the purpose of the bridgemen. As targets. So none of those tactics theoretically would have worked better for Sadeas's goal (which goes back to your number one point), Sadeas just wanted to win gemhearts and didn't care what it cost to other people. Bridgemen were faster and more efficient than any other option. Thereby Sadeas got the most gemhearts. He just didn't care about the lives lost.

The alethi warcamp and cities became synonomous. It is the new capital of the Alethi. The fact that soulcast grain is used for chouta which is a street food purchasable by darkeyes to me speaks for itself. Except we see heating fabrials mentioned in 4 to 5 other locations in the books. I said this before, and I will say it one more time (not being confrontational, just I see no point in repeating it further), but the wealthy do fuel industry in this manner. I still do not see why the poor have to afford fabrials for them to be used to advance the industry. The fabrials would increase production which would make common goods cheaper and more available. That is what the assembly line caused with cars. And personally I disagree. If the slave darkeyes bonds an elsecaller spren, how is the upper crust going to control or limit him or her from soulcasting food when a highstorm passes? If the serving girl bonds an edgedancer spren, how is the upper crust going to control or limit her from using regrowth to increase the food yield when a highstorm passes? They have had fabrial clocks for awhile. The wrist watch was an advancement in miniaturization. Dalinar has realized the value of keeping time. As this can allow the coordination of attacks, those watches will become more important, and production will ramp up. They are producing food and resources cheaper as per Sebarial. Again, I feel it is faulty to use real world analogues, when pre-industrial europe didn't have a renewable energy source in stormlight. Radiant soulcasters to produce food in the short term, and radiant regrowth to accelerate food production and get it ramped up. Again this is where I get confused. They already have ordinary manufacturing. Navani was musing to herself regarding ways to further production with fabrials. The ideas are there, and now with access to radiants as well as Urithiru, the heralds, and spren from the cognitive side, I really do not see why such mechanization would be so far fetched. Things like the printing press and the assembly line worked so well because you could teach a worker one skill, one action, and have them do that one skill, one action well. Instead of having to teach the entire process. It made the work force interchangeable and replaceable. That occurs during an industrial revolution. How many people died from over worked hours? How many people died from unsanitary conditions? How many people died in factories without proper safety precautions when fires broke out, or lost limbs? That hardly prevented the industrial revolution from occurring. The legislation came to pass as result of it. England during world war two was regularly bombed by Germany yet came up with numerous technological innovations, of which some were crucial in winning the war.

But they can afford them, and they do use them. Chouta is soulcast food prepared with spices sold as a street food. Latrines and trash are for waste removal with soulcasters. Yes the quote below refers to a palace, but Shallan herself says it is becoming increasingly common. Way of Kings page 524 Kharbranth's palace offered far more luxury. The stone pool in the ground resembled a small personal lake, luxuriously warmed by clever fabrials that produced heat. Shallan didn't know much about fabrials yet, though part of her was very intrigued. This type was becoming increasingly common. Just the other day, the Conclave staff had sent Jasnah one to heat her chambers. It is a city state with no where near the global power other nations have. It exists by being "uninteresting". Otherwise it would have been conquered by someone else. It says as much in the book. Radiant enlistment has already grown with the windrunners alone. There are multiple truthwatchers. There is a time gap between book 3 and 4. Brandon confirmed there will be more dustbringers. Brandon also confirmed not every radiant was used on the battlefield. Some can do a whole lot to aid the war effort at home. I think this is another point of disconnect between us. What I envision is not overnight. But I also do not think it will take 100s of years. I do not think that is unreasonable. Considering two of the means to access the cognitive realm involve radiant orders that do not choose based on economic status, I do not think that would be as great a barrier as you posit. But to each their own. As per the Shallan quote above, and the drawings the Navani is working on (including the wrist watch) I believe is indicative of a growing focus on fabrials. Personally I see a middle ground between "tomorrow" and "considerable time" (100s of years). I think Roshar is prime, and well on its way. I think the war, the knowledge, access to the cognitive realm, and other cultures are all aspects to cause advancement in leaps and bounds. But this seems to be something we fundamentally disagree on, so I guess it is RAFO till Rhythm of War comes out.

Again I am confused. The wealthy fueled industry via factories during the industrial revolution. The machines for manufactoring were not located in in the personal home first. Why do you keep saying the poor have to afford to make industry level machines? Way of Kings page 193 "Chilled, using one of the new fabrials that could make things cold" I believe there is another reference in Kharbranth. I will need a sec to pull that one up. Kharbranth already uses gravity plumbing, and mentioned they were working on using fabrials. Because radiants can use their surges directly from stormlight. Gravitation, Adhesion, Abrasion, Division, Transportation, Transformation (yes I know we disagree on this one), Illumination, Progression, Cohesion, and Tension I guess at this point we will just have to agree to disagree and RAFO. I think Rhythm of War will show much of what I speak of.

Depends on the country on Roshar you are referring to. The Alethi is very stratified in division of labor. The Azir are not. Thaylenah is not. These are members of the current coalition They have the equivalency of solar power more prevalent than even us in the modern day. They use stormlight for renewable lighting. They use stormlight for food production. They use stormlight for refuse disposal. They use stormlight for internal heating. They use stormlight for cold food storage. They are going to be using stormlight for indoor plumbing (as mentioned by Navani). A renewable resource without the full on environmental impact that coal and oil caused. Gemstones are the only limiting factor. Now that the Radiants returned and they are not as limited regarding gemstones, that would push things even further. Navani's sketches shows the beginnings of such concepts already. edit: and again going back to the original reason for this thread. Roshar has numerous ways of accessing the cognitive realm. A realm that already has existing trade with other worlds. Trade that will result in exchanging of ideas, and additional technologies that Roshar does not have, but could jump start their development. Imagine theorizing about machines, and then travel to the cognitive realm, and see one being sold by another planet. You don't even have to buy it or break it apart to see how it ticks. The ideas and inspiration of what is possible, could lead to all sorts of innovations. Storms the microwave is the result of radar. Two completely unconnected innovations in practice and form, had one lead to the other by accident. edit 2: so to answer your initial question about "at which point becomes mass awareness of and mass access to the cognitive realm inevitable", I believe the answer is Roshar, and the time is now. Enemy combatants have taken over the cognitive realm. Team Honor is going to have to take the fight to there and liberate spren cities from fused control. Travel between realms is going to become common place and intermingling of cultures is going to be the norm. Discovery of other worlds will occur in short order due to reclaiming occupied territory where such trade had taken place with immortal spren for centuries.

Honestly I feel that is reductionist. There is a growing merchant class. The industrial revolution was not fueled by the poor. It was the affluent with the capital to build the factories and then with the interest in ramping up production, the technologies advanced. Which is exactly what is occurring with Sebarial to me. From what I have seen of Roshar, all the hurdles and problems you are mentioning, occurred years ago in Roshar's past. They are at the cusp of reaching critical mass to begin their industrial revolution, and war time further stimulates that. Which is exactly what I feel Rhythm of War is saying. Technological arms race doesn't only mean developing weapons. It means production across the board. Food, textile, and so on.

I think part of the problem/disconnect, is trying to label these societies in the cosmere as a specific time period from Earth. There are too many characteristics that are different for it to line up for me. Roshar has faster than light communication (span reeds. on earth we don't even have that yet). They have what amounts to be phone routing years and years before the phone was even a thing. They have "electrical" heating in heating fabrials, apparently long before they should have that technology. Originally textiles before the industrial revolution were done in the house holds of the workers, yet we have mention of Sebarial having whole factories for them, and that fact not being unusual. They have resource replication and refuse elimination technology earth doesn't even have in soulcasters. They have medical practices (anesthesia and antiseptic) years before they should. Azir is literate across the whole culture while Alethi is not. I think it is a large problem trying to label the planet as a certain era when so much is unique to their circumstances. And I further think it is problematic to use Earth's development to determine how they are going to develop when they have access to things we either didn't have yet, or never had.

In a prior post you mentioned that they didn't know how to manufacture. That is why I am confused. In the book it states they do, on a city wide scale. I also mentioned that Shallan was not surprised at the process. She was surprised he was able to do it covertly. So it definitely is a global practice. You mentioned hand operated machines being an indication of industrial revolution beginning and that Roshar lacked it. But that is the manufactories mentioned in the book. So I still don't understand why that doesn't count.

One thing I love about Brandon Sanderson's books is that he does something I believe has never been done before. Showed technological progression in his world building with magic. He really considers how magic would affect daily life, and how that could change over time.

Since this thread is analogous to the other, I will also post my response on the other thread to here:

You both keep saying "100s of years" regarding factories, but that confuses me, because Roshar already has those. It could be said that Sebarial is an outlier, but keep in mind: 1. He isn't hiding this fact anymore 2. The technology and ability already exists (Shallan didn't marvel at the concept, she marveled that he did it without the others realizing it. So the factories are not revolutionary. They are an existing technology). 3. He is currently in Dalinar's inner circle. He will be affecting policy. 4. Fen is right up there with him, and thinks the same way. Thaylenah is a merchant culture. They are a coalition now (it is a long scene so I highlighted what I feel is pertinent) Words of Radiance page 459 She turned her attention out the window, and soon decided that this place was a warcamp in name only. The streets were straighter than you might have in a city that had grown naturally, but Shallan saw far more civilians than she did soldiers. They passed taverns, open markets, shops, and tall buildings that surely could hold a dozen different families. People crowded many of the streets. The place wasn’t as varied and vibrant as Kharbranth had been, but the buildings were of solid wood and stone, constructed up against one another to share support. “Rounded roofs,” Shallan said. “My engineers say they repel the winds better,” Sebarial said proudly. “Also, buildings with rounded corners and sides.” “So many people!” “Almost all permanent residents. I have the most complete force of tailors, artisans, and cooks in the camps. Already, I’ve set up twelve manufactories—textiles, shoes, ceramics, several mills. I control the glassblowers as well.” Shallan turned back toward him. That pride in his voice didn’t at all match what Jasnah had written of the man. Of course, most of her notes and knowledge of the highprinces came from infrequent visits to the Shattered Plains, and none had been recent. “From what I’ve heard,” Shallan said, “your forces are among the least successful in the war against the Parshendi.” Sebarial got a twinkle in his eyes. “The others hunt quick income from gemhearts, but what will they spend their money on? My textile mills will soon produce uniforms at a much cheaper price than they can be shipped in for, and my farmers will provide food far more varied than what is supplied through Soulcasting. I’m growing both lavis and tallew, not to mention my hog farms.” “You sly eel,” Shallan said. “While the others fight a war, you’ve been building an economy.” “I’ve had to be careful,” he confided, leaning in. “I didn’t want them to notice what I was doing at first.” “Clever,” Shallan said. “But why are you telling me?” “You’ll see it anyway, if you’re to act as one of my clerks. Besides, the secrecy doesn’t matter anymore. The manufactories are now producing, and my armies barely go on a single plateau run a month. I have to pay Dalinar’s fines for avoiding them and forcing him to send someone else, but it’s worth the cost. Anyway, the smarter highprinces have figured out what I’m up to. The others just think I’m a lazy fool.” “And so you’re not a lazy fool?” “Of course I am!” he exclaimed. “Fighting is too much work. Besides, soldiers die, and that makes me pay out to their families. It’s just useless all around.” He looked out the window. “I saw the secret three years back. Everyone was moving here, but nobody thought of the place as permanent—despite the value of those gemhearts, which ensured that Alethkar would always have a presence here. . . .” He smiled.

Then can I ask what you believe the back of Rhythm of War is referring to? Genuinely curious.

I guess where I get confused is I feel like you are saying it all has to happen immediately to count. The original post used a whole lot of "will happen", "going to". Roshar has access to a myriad of ways to get to the cognitive realm. They would have access to spren that have their own entire mercantile system involving trade with other worlds. They will have access to the heralds. I feel the fabrials we have seen tested out is only the tip of the iceberg to come, and I also feel the back description of Rhythm of War supports this.

The industrial revolution is "the transition to new manufacturing processes". I take that to mean it is a process over time. For myself, that is what I am referring to regarding them currently undergoing an industrial revolution. From what I understand of the definition, it is not only after they have all these processes perfected and standardized. It is the process by which the manufacturing processes are gradually shifted. Which I believe is applicable to Roshar. They already have a lot of the science down in the scenes we see with Navani, as well as in Kharbranth. Not sure why something that is flammable and explosive would be simpler than fabrials. edit: remember the southern scadrians developed aircraft that instead of trying to develop propulsion and aeronautics in the vein of airplanes, focused instead on airships due to being able to lighten the materials and using steel pushes to run rotors. Why would the same principles applied via fabrials be problematic?

Conjoined fabrials. attracting and repelling fabrials. Infuse the machine with stormlight. Manipulate the metal housing to increase or decrease speed (like how we see doing so increases or decreases heat regarding a heating fabrial). That raises and lowers the needle of a sewing machine. Attached a conjoined fabrial to that needle, and even if they can only split the gemstone in half, you have still doubled production. If they find a way to further divide a conjoined fabrial, you exponentially increase production. Soulcasters could produce the resources at the location of production reducing the need of supply lines and labor harvesting. Soulcast stacks upon stacks of cloth for sewing right at the factory. Transportation (the surge) to send out the finished product across the globe. Use the same means of production to carve fabrial housings or vehicles, then soulcast them into the materials needed, such as metal, and etc. If anything i think fabrials would speed the revolution far more than our own.

We do have WoB that say Roshar is headed towards magitech. I guess I am just confused why fabrials, which would be more environmentally and renewably sound (assuming they don't wipe out gemheart production) couldn't accomplish for Roshar, the same thing that factories and the steam engine did on Earth. Conjoined fabrials could lead to mass production of goods if they learn to split the gemstone more than once. Soulcasting to produce resources instead of having to depend on forests and refineries. The "screens" hinted at in Urithiru for potentially instantaneous communication. Centralized heating and cooling, as well as air pressure. Regrowth for food production. I guess for me, on Roshar, fabrials are the machines for the industrial revolution. I am just unsure why they couldn't be. edit: Oh and we have WoB that the upper nahn merchant darkeyes are becoming a new larger populated middle class. So there is the funding.

So I googled it out of curiosity and apparently "gemology" really is a thing lol. It is a geoscience and is a branch of mineralogy. It is a science dealing with natural and artificial gemstone materials.

So I agree Alethela was originally organized for war, in so far as they practiced it so others could have peace, but the outlook very much changed after the Radiants. Those who fought were meant to serve those who did not. Much like the Shin believe. Fighting was seen as a last resort, and a horrible undertaking, that needed guidance in order to get through it without being destroyed. Conversely the Alethkar we know of extols combat. Those that fight are seen as the highest calling and are to rule. That is quite different than how it was presented by the Radiant in Dalinar's vision. That difference could be attributed to the Thrill. We do know it has been hanging out in Alethkar for so long, that it was considered normal and accepted to go into a battle rage. The purpose is causing increased emotion to open them up to investiture. We see instances of this across multiple novels and on other planets. This allowed the Odiuous spren to possess Sadeas's men.

I do think they know geology in a conventional sense because crem still does pile up and cause strata. They have mining technology. True gemstones largely come from the local fauna, they still do prize mining minerals like marble enough that it is profitable to do so. Now having said that, I was more referring to gemstones, and could not think of a term that focuses on that, so I just used geology as a catch all. I agree specifically geology in regards outside of gemstones is probably at a comparable level, but specifically regarding gemstones they are more advanced to a degree. I would argue they are currently undergoing an industrial revolution. Just whereas on earth it was via steam and coal, on Roshar they us stormlight. Using attracting and repelling fabrials as a system of pumps for instance was mentioned in the novels. Span reeds once developed further could potentially take place of the printing press (assuming they learn how to conjoin multiple pens, and then develop a mechanism to move the first one). We see in Navani a very real desire to develop fabrials and mechanize them. It looks like the fabrial form of transportation is limited between two static locations. We also see that with Elantris on Sel. There are "warp" pads, not a personal teleporter. Further due to the "wisdom of the heralds", they also know about anesthesia which wasn't a thing even longer in earth history I am definitely excited to see them pursue this further! Admittedly the desolation might put a kink into things, but I feel Roshar was definitely headed in that direction. Though as a counter, a large chunk of our technological advances can be sourced during wars, or through military application. So if anything the desolation could theoretically accelerate their industrial revolution.

I saw Mistborn once ages ago, read the back and felt confused. What did the mist have to do with these powers? Forgot about it for a little bit. Then an acquaintance recommended Elantris. I gave it a shot and enjoyed it. I then checked to see if there were other books by the author, and came across Mistborn again. So I figured I would give it a shot, and was a fan ever since.

Here's some news to get you excited. It is confirmed via WoB that in Book 4 Rhythm of War, we will see artwork of all nine radiant spren both their physical and cognitive representations. I say nine, because they will be excluding the bondsmith spren to avoid spoiling what the Sibling is.

As Karger said, theoretically that is what oathgates are. The prevailing theory (which I agree with) is that the black spren is an elsecaller spren, and the white spren is a willshaper spren. Though the willshaper spren looks weird for some reason. One thing to keep in mind when considering a society's technological level in regards to the cosmere is consider where their magic is sourced. Scadrial has more advanced metallurgy than they should of a similar society at their level because of the world's magic system. So too with Roshar. Their science in gunpowder has retarded due to the introduction of fabrials, but their science in geology is more advanced than it would be otherwise due to the value of gemstones (the cut of gemstones was mentioned specifically if I recall correctly). Both are supported via WoB.

@Harrycrapper was making an informed choice based on the parameters I presented for the vote. Based on that information he or she deemed their choice optimal. I acknowledge there is still a lot of info we do not have. I included that in my initial post, which is why I wrote what we would for this exercise be assuming. So I do not believe what he or she wrote was incorrect. He or she was going based on the information provided.

Got Elend as well.

So first and foremost, I read and acknowledge your other prior post where you delineate the difference between the Alethi knowledge of the parsh before versus after meeting the parshendi. I agree, prior to meeting the parshendi, the current Alethi did not know the parsh were sapient. My post below is not meant to disagree or argue that point. In fact it is not meant to argue anything. Just further discuss the topics. Hope that clarified my intentions before beginning. I think the parsh situation is interesting because it is also in line with Kaladin's actions regarding the lighteyes. The current Alethi had a worldview regarding the parsh that was validated. The parsh cannot care for themselves. They are practically beasts of burden. The current Alethi were ignorant, and applied unfair "specist" views upon the parsh as a whole. When the Alethi then met the parshendi, that is when their worldview got challenged. The question then becomes what do they do now? Do they change their worldview and take in this new information? Or do they double down, and ignore it? Unfortunately the Alethi on whole seemed to have doubled down, and ignored it. Elhokar still views them as savages. Now that the parsh have been restored, and can speak of their experiences, again the question becomes will the Alethi take in this new information and change their worldview, or will they again double down and ignore it resulting in further strife? If the Alethi do change their worldview, it does not change the negative worldview and actions they took prior, but they can choose to grow and change. Kaladin showed growth that he experienced other lighteyes that challenged his world view. He then chose to take in that new information and change his world view. edit: to further clarify just in case, it is not my intention to say Kaladin's views towards the lighteyes equates to the Alethi treatment of the parsh. What I am saying, is both views are problematic, and require the individual holding them to re-evaluate their worldview. Hopefully the individuals involved will then alter their worldview and grow as result. Also growing and change does not erase the problematic actions taken under the problematic view. It gives it context.