Pathfinder

But thats my point. Szeth is not centuries old. He never had a chance to see someone else use the honorblade. His own preconceived notions on it limited its capabilities. If it is that easy to limit the swords capabilities, then why would it be so easy for him to use everything else it can do? I think it is a massive stretch to imagine that Szeth just picked up the honorblade, and went "hmmm ah the surge of gravitation means i can fly. so i shall fly!" and there he goes flying. Just like picking up any old sword doesn't mean you know how to hold it, block with it, and swing it. All of which he does around full shardbearers and expert swordsmen. If the surges were all that kept him ahead of the game, he would have lost his head long ago. the use of the surges to confuse individuals who have never seen this ability before, never fought against this ability before, and do not know the limits of that ability. that does not denote skill. that just means szeth has an ace that they dont and that kaladin had too later

And yet a sword that is fathoms more powerful than a knight bonded, is limited to the knowledge and perception of the wielder. honorblades do not take 10 heartbeats to summon and yet it does for Szeth. If even that needs training to use, why wouldn't the lashes? And as i pointed out, we are showing how Kaladin, a knight radiant, with the urging of Syl that he could accomplish these feats was able to do them relatively naturally. Just like his fighting skill came natural to him while he was bonded to syl. Szeth is not bonded to a spren. Szeth is just a normal rosharian human being that picked up an honorblade. I can pick up a bazooka and figure out where to pull the trigger. That doesn't mean i will know how to aim it, or not blow myself up. To further expand on it, that also doesn't mean i will know the blast radius, that it is best used against armor, whats its range. In other words how to use it in combat situations, which is exactly what Szeth was in throughout both novels.

Yes they do have warriors, all of which are held to a very strict law. A law so strict that Szeth gives up everything because of it. Now I am not argueing whether the shamans are hypocrits or not. Nor am I argueing that they are abusing their power. All I am pointing out is that Szeth did in fact receive combat training, and did in fact receive training in the use of an honorblade. Just because windrunner powers seem easier than lightweaver powers does not equate you being able to change your gravity just because you are told you can. Kaladin needed to not only know it was possible, but practice, have information from Teft and Sigzil, and have a physical example he could base his actions off of. It wasn't an amorphous concept, he saw it done. Practicing katas is all about seeing the form, mimicking the form, and practicing the form till it becomes natural. Thats training. edit: and thats even using a radiant as an example. not some random individual picking up a sword that doesn't even fully work due to the individuals perception on how it should work. edit2: changed out caps for bold as it makes it sound like i am yelling, when in actuality i am only using it for emphasis

But those forms are still used for combat to train a warrior. Also although it is a logical leap, i highly doubt Szeth could pick up an honorblade, and know how to use it to lash and also use accurate terminology for them without any training.

I can find quotes for you, but everytime he summoned it for Shallan he was wincing. True it is not to the level we saw on the battle field or during the duel, but it could be argued that by that point he got better about dealing with an unending screaming voice in his head whenever the sword is in his hands.

Then why did Szeth reference numerous fighting styles that he is trained in through out WoK and WoR that enable him to effortlessly kill his foes?

Maybe the lesser spren do not gain sapience as result? And that seems to be what the spren refer to as "life or death" for them. They lose that sapience. edit: invested beard, great minds think alike lol

Well on the upside, there are two games i am excited about, gravity rush and gravity rush 2, where the main character has gravity manipulation powers almost identical to a windrunner. So although you don't get to feel like a mistborn, you will feel like a knights radiant. So sorta yay?

This will probably get me crucified but i think what it comes down to it is racism is an ugly word. Classism not so much. One is associated with years of pain both emotional and physical, another is associated with rebellion and defiance. When people identify with a character, they see a part of themselves in it. So calling a character you identify with, a negative connotation, it is felt to be directed at the fan of the character. So there is a need to defend the character, thereby defending oneself. So I doubt this will ever be resolved.

But they are different ethnicities correct? And there are slurs towards italians, scandinavians, africans, mexicans, arabs, and so on. Take your pick. What would you term those slurs towards those groups? Classism? edit: i have met puerto rican's that claim they can identify a mexican by their hair. Not the color of the hair mind you, but the way the hair rests. if THAT can separate a group, why cannot eye color? An eye color btw that breeds true. Two blonde haired individuals on earth, can still produce a brown haired child if its in their ancestry. Not so with Roshar. Light and light gets light, dark and dark gets dark. Only changes if you mix the two. I gotcha, I just wanted to be certain so i can be supportive to your feelings. it clearly upset you, so i wanted to be understanding.

Race, as a social construct, is a group of people who share similar and distinct physical characteristics.[1][2][3][4][5][6] First used to refer to speakers of a common language and then to denote national affiliations, by the 17th century race began to refer to physical (i.e. phenotypical) traits. The term was often used in a general biological taxonomic sense,[7] starting from the 19th century, to denote genetically differentiated human populations defined by phenotype.[8][9] Social conceptions and groupings of races vary over time, involving folk taxonomies[10] that define essential types of individuals based on perceived traits. Class (social), the hierarchical arrangement of individuals in society, usually defined by wealth and occupation Class does not reference physical trait. Race does. Light eye and dark eye is a physical trait.

We are both members of the human race, but if i was african american, and you were caucasian you could be racist towards me. We are the same race.

Not to put you on the spot Meg, but you did quote my post when you mentioned this further aside. Did you feel my statement applied to not taking people seriously? Im am not intending to cause a fight, belittle you or invalidate how you feel, just want to better understand what it is applying to.

Granted, but you are cursed to never be able to gather the metal to store/burn I wish I could know what all the knights radiant abilities are, and i would share it with the next person about to give me a curse so they are more lenient with me......

we were getting lost in the semantic due to you being pedantic, and i wrote this as a random antic edit: totally written as a meaningless joke, not to instigate anything

You can be racist to ethnicities, which is what lighteyes darkeyes would be considered. I have known puerto ricans, be condescending to mexicans. i have seen spanards condescending towards puerto ricans. i have seen ugandans being looked down upon by african americans. Racism can exist within a country. They have similar racial orgins, but the racism is still there. Storms, we are a human race but still can be racist to each other.

Just because it is oddball, does not mean the scenario does not count. a darkeyes gaining a shardblade from killing a shardbearer is almost to a myth level, yet there are laws regarding it, it is part of their society, and it happens to Moash. If it is purely a societal structure, then if the highprince named him heir, what is he?

Ah good ole Godwin's Law. One of the highprinces had a bastard that had one eye light and one eye dark, what was his rank if his father acknowledged him as heir then? I have another point i was in the middle of typing. I will edit this post when i have articulated it fully edit: Kaladin was offered by Dalinar to join or leave as he wished. If Kal had such a huge problem with the caste system and authority (which exalted soldiers/warriors) then by rising in the ranks of the military structure should have been seen as just as corruptible and in support of that caste system. Yet he took the rank of captain. Meanwhile he had to be convinced on numerous occasions to trust Dalinar despite continual overwhelming evidence. And when asked why, he did not say it was because Dalinar was a highprince, but because he was lighteyed.

Difference is the nobility was a class, while lighteyes were a race. Originally there were the skaa, and the nobility. If there were any breeding between the two, the product was executed. However Elend comments how overtime there has been such an intermingling anyway that you could barely tell the difference anymore. Kelsier himself was the product of a noble and a skaa which was illegal in that world. If he hated nobility as a "race", then he would have been as hell bent on wiping out the halfbreeds as the lord ruler was. However in stormlight archive, a darkeyes could advance high enough in the caste system that they could marry into a lower light eyes family. The child then had a chance to be born lighteyes, or one dark eye one light eye, or just dark eyes. So there was, however improbable, a chance for a darkeyes to rise up high enough in the social structure to join the lighteyes ranks. It was so improbable to be almost myth, but it still could happen to the point that that was exactly what Lirin was working towards. In mistborn there was no way shape or form for a skaa to EVER become nobility. Only after the lord ruler was killed, and Elend formed a whole new form of government was a middle class possible to exist with any class mobility. Vorinism's main tenant is bettering oneself. Through out the book it points out the hypocrisy of this in practice, but the society itself is built on the claim that a person, regardless dark eyes or light eyes can advance and be honored in the eyes of the Almighty. So Kelsier hates the CLASS of nobility, while Kaladin hates the RACE of lighteyes. Just because the TERM of racism is detestable does not change its application.

Disagreeing does not invalidate my points. All it means is you disagree. That is semantics. He had plenty of instances where dark eyes abused their station, and inflicted suffering on him and the ones he loved yet he never changed his mantra that lighteyes are the problem. Kal can be like that old fashioned grandpa who everyone loves, but will still say a racial slur randomly at christmas and everyone chooses to ignore, or can be a member of the Klu Klux Klan that actively hung innocent african americans. Either way, it is still racism.

Ironically I feel the quotes you posted support my point all the more, just need to emphasize different portions. He would love to see the lighteyes, ALL of them, be punished and suffer. His only refutation of Moash is that he thinks its impossible that a darkeyes could be in such a situation to punish the lighteyes. This last line I actually find funny based on how I interpret it. He views power as poison that will corrupt and destroy a person. So please let the people he hates most have it and choke on it while he just stays away safe. It is like finding out there is a gas leak in a house you share with someone you hate. Instead of fixing the leak, or even evacuating the building, you just make sure you aren't around anytime the person you hate tries to light the stove......

My point has nothing to do with whether kal was right or wrong, good or bad for holding the beliefs he did. My point isn't even whether or not it was justified. My point is merely in response to the statement that claimed Kal's issue was with the caste system, not race. As I showed based on the definition in each, and scenes in the book, he clearly focused his worldview regarding lighteyes vs darkeyes. Which is in that world's analogue a race issue. Therefore, take whatever connotation you wish on the term, but it is racism.

In the books, the kids he grew up with despised him because he was of a higher dahn/nahn than them. That is regarding the caste. The definition of a caste is as follows: "each of the hereditary classes of Hindu society, distinguished by relative degrees of ritual purity or pollution and of social status." Caste by definition prescribes to the class you are born into, not the race. The kids from his own town hated him due to his stature in the social order. He did not, because then he would be hating himself. By dividing people by light eyes and dark eyes in his mind, he was able to support his own prejudices. Gaz and others like him were darkeyes who treated Kal and his friends horribly. Yet that did not support Kal's worldview that all lighteyes were reprehensible, so he disregarded it. I don't know how much simpler this has to be. Caste is literally referring to class. Race is literally referring to a group with a common feature or features. Nahns and Dahns are caste, Light eyes and dark eyes are race.

It is racism because although castes do exist, it is not the caste that Kaladin has a problem with. If i recall correctly there are 10 dahns for dark eyes, and 10 dahns for light eyes. If he only had a problem with castes, then he would think/say "everyone above this caste line will use you and betray you. Everyone of this caste number is dishonorable". But he does not. he does not reference the caste level at all. It does not matter if the lighteyed is of the 10th dahn or the first dahn. All lighteyes are reprehensible. it was stated earlier the definition of racism, so lets look at the definition again, shall we? (emphasis mine) the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Kaladin views all lighteyes are dishonorable, regardless of dahn. Therefore it does not have to do with caste. It has to do with racism. The "Race" is in this case referring to the color of the eyes, rather than skin.

I PMed you about this issue as per the forum guidelines but you never replied. If you would like to continue this discussion feel free to reply to me there as per the forum guidelines. Thank you.