shawnhargreaves

Sorry, I don't follow how that satisfies what we have been told signifies "one Shard co-opting or corrupting another Shard's magic". What other Shard's magic do you propose is being co-opted here? I agree that bonding spren is a normal thing for listeners, and that this was originally Adonalsium spren but later broadened to include Honor and Cultivation spren. If this is a normal thing which can apply to spren of several different types, how does Odium creating his different kind of bond satisfy the red eyes requirement? Whatever the explanation is, it must also cover why we did not see red eyes for so many situations in Mistborn...

We don't absolutely know this for sure, but here are some relevant WoB (bolding mine): "Humans and parshmen don't have a common ancestor. And as a side note, both of these strains of humanoids predate the ascension of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium." "Humans (other than those on Yolen) existed pre-Shattering, as did parshmen." "That said, the non-sapient spren, so the spren that are not quite as-- They're not going to stand up and talk to you. Those all existed-- not all, but most of them existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium." Of course it's possible that the parshmen existed, as did the non-sapient spren, but they didn't start their symbiosis until Honor or Cultivation arrived. Seems really unlikely though! Rosharan biology relies heavily on spren + gemhearts to make all kinds of things possible, and Brandon has told us that native Rosharan species predate the Shattering.

That's not Honor's mechanism, though, because the Parshendi predate the Shattering. If any Shard applying their magic over the top of things that date back to Adonalsium was enough to cause red eyes, we'd be seeing red all over the place! The red has to come from Odium co-opting something that another Shard did. Which means that something about the Fused (and something different from the regular pre-shattering Parshendi lifecycle) came from Honor or Cultivation.

It's too bad this question included the "co-opting or corrupting" wording, so we don't know whether Brandon's simple "yes" response referred to co-opting, corrupting, or both. But either way. The Fused are clearly working for and powered by Odium in the present day of OB, yet their abilities look almost exactly like Surgebinding. The way I read this WoB, there are two possible explanations: Fused were originally created by Honor, then later co-opted by Odium Fused were created by Odium, who somehow co-opted Honor's Surgebinding abilities for them to use I find the first possibility more likely, for several reasons: The Fused have much in common with the Heralds, who we know were created by Honor. The nature of the Fused (revered ancestors committing to a cycle of being endlessly reborn until a goal is achieved) is more Honory than Odiumy. Honor creating and then Odium co-opting fits better with what we know of the timeline. If the Parshendi switched allegiances to Odium before the Fused were created, why aren't we seeing remnants of earlier Honor+Parshendi magic system usage? We've already seen multiple examples of individuals switching allegiance between Honor and Odium, but none of one Shard somehow co-opting the entire magic system of another to give to their minions.

If that was the case, we'd be seeing far more red eyes in other places. For instance when Vin used Allomancy (Preservation's magic) to take control of Koloss armies (which were created by Ruin using Hemalurgy) their eyes did not glow. The Inquisitors, Zane, and Spook did not have glowing eyes, despite being Scadrial humans (created jointly by Ruin and Preservation) who were then controlled by Ruin. (yes, Ruin had a partial role in creating the Scadrial variant of humanity, but Odium was once a part of Adonalsium too...) There has to be more to it than this, and red eyes strike me as a massively important clue. If "entity created by X, now controlled by Y" was enough to cause red eyes, we'd have seen those in other places before. So I think the cause must be something more like "entity given magic by X, where that same magic is now taken over by Y". For sure. Also there is free will in the Cosmere, so it's unlikely to ever be as simple as all of a given race having the same allegiance at the same time. At least not with humans. The Parshendi appear to have been capturing lesser spren in their gemhearts all along (higher spren, apparently not, but I don't think we have 100% proof of that yet).

Part of telling a story on this massive scale is having different plot elements moving at different speeds. Some things are introduced and then resolved within a chapter, some within a single book, while others are just hinted at in early books only to be brought to the fore in later ones. Hoid is at the extreme end of this, as his story will span all 35+ or whatever it is Cosmere novels in total. That means he needs to progress VERY VERY slowly, with just tiny tidbits of information in each of the earlier books. This glacial pace can be frustrating to those of us who pore over every little detail trying to uncover secrets, but for those who aren't coming online to endlessly theorize and analyze everything, I think he'll just appear as one more mysterious detail that will presumably be explained later on. One huge thing that changed in OB is the explanation of Hoid being ancient. Those who follow the Cosmere closely already knew all about this from Words of Brandon, but this was the first in-book mention that Hoid's age is on a par with that of Heralds, Shards, etc.

I just want to point out that @PhineasGage wins this thread. There is no need for any further posts :-)

Simplify this down to Passonium, and I'm in.

There's a long thread about this over here:

I don't think that tells us who used the Dawnshards, or which Shard created them. Big picture here is I think we (plus everyone in world) are underestimating the impact of the big humans-were-voidbringers reveal. Before OB, we believed: humans are good and of Honor. Parshendi are evil and of Odium. After OB, we are told: humans were once voidbringers, and Parshendi of Honor, but then they swapped, leading to evil Fused/Parshendi/Odium and good Heralds/KR/Honor. In other words, way back when things used to be different, but after the swap of allegiance we ended up with exactly the same situation that was understood to be the case prior to the OB reveal. That's, ahem... underwhelming? We should be seeing far more remnants of the previous allegiances, and consequences from the switch. So what have we got that might be such remnants? The Fused are by far the oldest Parshendi we've seen, and the Heralds the oldest humans. I'm increasingly convinced that current assumptions about both these are off the mark.

For me this thread ultimately boils down to faith in Brandon. I'd be happy to see Shallan's relationships evolve in many possible directions (or for her to end up single for that matter) as long as I believed in it and felt the outcome was properly earned. But this is not the case as of the end of OB. She rushed into something while in an unstable place and for the wrong reasons. But, we are 3 books into an arc of 5 (ultimately 10). There are tons of other big things that are unresolved as of the end of OB. When I think about, eg. how unconvinced I am by the explanation we were given for the cause of the Recreance, I don't worry for a moment that Brandon has written this poorly. Instead I think ho hum, there are secrets here waiting to be explored in the next book... So why DO I (plus it seems many others) worry about Shallan's marriage to Adolin? I've been pondering this and believe it has several root causes: Brandon has not in the past been the most deft at writing romances. Not that he's terrible at it, just not one of his strengths. He has a habit of writing arranged marriages that develop into true love with minimal hurdles along the way. Marriages in his books always seem stable and trouble free (even Sadeas and Ialai appeared happily married!) Stable, permanent marriages align with what we know of Brandon's personal life and religious beliefs So we look at these things, and worry that when Brandon writes "they got married" this means "and they lived happily ever after - the end". Which is not ok! Note I'm not advocating for any specific path of further development, as there are many options that could work. They just have to include the fact that Shallan is a mess and has a lot more work to do (ideally without hurting either Adolin or Kaladin too much, as I love both of them). BUT... A unique thing about Brandon among writers I have followed closely is that he seems unusually self aware about his limitations as well as strengths. A big part of why the romance elements in his previous books did not bother me is that he was smart enough not to place excessive focus on something that was not his strong spot. Stormlight is stretching his writing skills in many different directions at once, but challenging himself and increasing his skills is exactly what I've seen him do all the way through his career. I've come to believe I can trust him on this, for two main reasons: First is the incredibly realistic and insightful handling of mental illness across all three of these books. Apparently Brandon has personal experience of depression in family members, but he has also obviously done a lot of research before writing this material. His portrayals are consistently nuanced and spot on. In OB, I particularly appreciated Kaladin freezing instead of speaking the Fourth Ideal (thank you thank you for not making his depression just go away forever after he got to a better place in life and learned a couple of coping strategies!) Also the details of how we saw both Dalinar and Teft fall off the wagon - that's exactly how addiction works. Brandon obviously gets it. He would not write these characters so accurately, but then prematurely declare Shallan "fixed" in an unrealistic and implausible way. Secondly is the interlude scene with the ardent reading a romance novel. This is more than just Brandon trolling the shippers among his fanbase. He is telling us that he understands the romance genre well enough to pastiche a cliched and poorly written love triangle, and finds that ridiculous enough to poke fun at it. In other words, "don't worry folks, I know what I'm doing here". TLDR: don't panic yet. Shallan's story is not finished. Brandon knows what he is doing.

It seems increasingly clear that the Diagram was created by Cultivation. Taravangians intelligence came directly from a visit to the Nightwatcher, and this kind of manipulation seems oh so similar to what she did with Dalinar.

Do we have evidence that the dawnshards came with humans? If so I missed it. Since Dawnsingers = Parshendi, I was assuming Dawnshards were also pre-human.

If the sequence 1. humans arrive -> 2. Odium creates Fused -> 3. Honor creates Oathpact, is correct, then Honor did basically nothing in immediate response to the arrival of Humans + Odium on Roshar, despite already being there along with the existing Parshendi inhabitants. That's a big hole! I think we'd be seeing some remnants of whatever original defenses Honor helped the Parshendi to create, and the Fused are a likely candidate for that.

I believe the Fused are indeed not using Voidbinding, and would go further than them being of some organic origin. I have a crazy idea that they were originally created by Honor, as an earlier variant of the same idea that later led to the Heralds. Couple of posts explaining this line of thinking:

In many ways the Fused mirror the Heralds more closely than the Knights Radiant. I have a crazy idea that the Fused gained access to the surges because they were originally created by Honor rather than Odium:

I've been thinking about something for a few days, and decided I believe in this enough to want to share it. Before the release of OB, there was much speculation that the Unmade might be Odium's equivalent of the Heralds, or perhaps some kind of shadow created when a Herald broke under torture. I found this line of thinking plausible at the time, but it doesn't hold up particularly well now that we've learned more about the Unmade. But you know what does seem REALLY similar to the Heralds? The Fused. At first I thought they were more like a voidish equivalent of the Knights Radiant, but: They are ancient and immortal (via resurrection, as they can be killed). They somehow end up on Braize in between reincarnations on Roshar. Their return is linked to the Desolations. Over the millennia, many of them have become insane. So I started thinking we had some Rosharan symmetry going on between the forces of Odium vs. Honor: Fused <-> Heralds. Parshendi forms of power <-> Knights Radiant. But after further consideration, I now believe there is more hidden here. Consider the sequence of historical events as I understand it after OB: Parshendi are native to Roshar. Honor and Cultivation arrive after sometime after the Shattering of Adonalsium. Humans and Odium arrive, and are settled in Shinovar. Humans invade and conquer the rest of Roshar. This is the first Desolation. Somehow a switcharoo happens: Odium takes over the Parshendi, while humans turn to Honor. Odium creates the Fused to seek vengeance against humans. This is the second Desolation? Honor creates the Oathpact, Honorblades, and Heralds to defend against the Fused. Desolations continue. Knights Radiant are formed when spren imitate the Honorblades. Aharietiam. KR learn about #4, which leads to the Recreance. Several things about this feel off (for instance there is a long thread questioning the given explanation for the Recreance) but there's one I haven't seen discussed yet: If the Fused came before the Honorblades, and the Fused were created by Odium, why are they so similar to the Heralds? Why is their magic seemingly almost identical to the Surgebinding created by Honor and Cultivation? And why do their eyes glow red, given this WoB: I'm also intrigued by an earlier WoB: So Odium was NOT a party to the Oathpact? Huh. It's also interesting to think about what the Fused really are. Revered ancestors, who are somehow bound to a goal and unable to Pass Beyond until they have achieved it. Reincarnated when one of their descendants agrees to sacrifice their life for the greater good of the tribe. This process is dark and uncomfortable, especially viewed through the lens of modern day Westernized morality, but it's all about honor, not hatred or passion. A very different form of honor to what we are used to, but these books are full of the idea that honor can be interpreted in many ways, and (increasingly as of OB) that "honor" and "good" are not necessarily the same thing. So here's my revised theory: Parshendi are native to Roshar. Like all native Rosharan species, they have gemhearts which can hold spren. These spren grant abilities which form a core part of all Rosharan lifecycles. Only lower spren are used for this, because the higher types of spren (which have individual consciousness) are not interested in letting themselves get trapped in someone else's gemheart. Honor and Cultivation arrive after sometime after the Shattering of Adonalsium. Honor works out how to grant Surgebinding to the Parshendi, by extending their existing gemheart+spren mechanism but using the soul of an Ancestor instead of a lower spren. This may occur before or at the same time as: Humans and Odium invade. The First Desolation. Honor creates the Fused to fight against it, and they swear something similar to the Oathpact. Eventually this first wave of immigrants are absorbed (like immigrants always are in the end). But more arrive in waves. As usually happens when a country experiences multiple waves of immigration, group N-1 are the most virulent in opposing the arrival of group N. Each arrival stirs up a fresh round of conflict, aka. another Desolation. Odium feeds off all of this. As earlier waves of human arrivals are absorbed into Roshar, they develop ties to Honor. He realizes he can do for them the same thing he previously did for the Parshendi, but because humans have no gemhearts, a different mechanism is needed. Thus the Honorblades are created. The Heralds swear the Oathpact, joining the Fused in the cycle of eternal reincarnation while they defend Roshar (+ possibly keep Odium trapped within this system). It's possible that the Heralds (except perhaps for the odd one out Taln?) were actively serving Odium right up to this moment. At some point during all of this, Odium manages to take over the Fused. Their eyes turn red. Higher orders of spren observe the Honorblades, and realize they can do a similar thing by bonding with a human. Unlike being trapped in a gemheart, they have something to gain in return from this arrangement (sentience in the Physical Realm) so the Knights Radiant are created. ... something something Recreance something ...

We saw a lot of Odium and his various minions during OB, and witnessed them using several kinds of magic. But was any of this actually Voidbinding? I find myself unconvinced. Possible candidates: Stormform listeners summoning lightning and the Everstorm (at the end of WoR) The Fused Amaram (at the end of OB) Renarin The Unmade I will consider each of these separately. 1. Stormform listeners This one is pretty much put to rest by WoB from the Calamity tour - https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4-calamity-seattle-signing/#e5153 This was well after the release of WoR, and Brandon clearly said we had not seen Voidbinding at that time, so Stormform cannot be it. After OB, in which we saw how similar the Fused powers are to Surgebinding, I find myself wondering whether the Stormform were using Surgebinding to access Division? That's the one we know least about so far, and separating electrons from the air would produce lightning for sure. 2. The Fused We saw quite a bit of what the Fused can do, and boy is it similar to Surgebinding. So similar, in fact, that I believe this IS Surgebinding. Odium is somehow hacking Honor's magic system to power it using Voidlight rather than Stormlight, but this is no more a different magic system than if I modded my gasoline car to run on ethanol, then claimed the result was no longer an internal combustion engine. WoB again - https://wob.coppermind.net/events/173-oathbringer-san-francisco-signing/#e8340 So, red eyes on Fused mean they must be co-opting Honor/Cultivation magic, rather than using something different that is purely of Odium (ditto for the Stormform listeners). I've read a theory that Odium always works by co-opting existing magic rather than creating new things of his own, and thus Voidbinding is by definition just an Odiumised variant of Surgebinding. I don't buy that for metatextual reasons: Think Bigger, as Jasnah would say. It's just not satisfying enough for the boss adversary to have a magic system that, despite a scary sounding name, is identical to the one we already know except for a different fuel source. We already saw an evil shard magic system that works by stealing other magics, with Ruin and Hemalurgy. Brandon wouldn't repeat that so closely. Another theory is that different magics can seem similar because they all work by manipulating the same underlying physical surges. My problem with this is that, even if the underlying surge is the same, the way it is accessed should produce significantly different results. Brandon lists fabrials, Surgebinding, and Voidbinding as the main three magic systems in the Stormlight Archive. Fabrials and Surgebinding have much in common, but their capabilities are quite different at least so far. Maybe eventually the Surgebinders will learn to replicate everything we have seen a fabrial do, or the artifabrians may replicate all of the Surgebinding abilities, but that is not the case today. The differences between the Fused and Knights Radiant seem more on a scale with the differences between Knights Radiant vs. Herald use of Surgebinding, rather than the far larger differences between Surgebinding and fabrials. That said, the Fused don't seem to be 100% identical to how KR Surgebinding works. If I followed correctly, it appears that each Fused gets only 1 rather than 2 surges. They seem unable to lash anyone but themselves (so when flying they must carry others in a harness) and it is mentioned in several places that they are slower to change direction than the Radiants. Kaladin lashes others by pushing Stormlight into them. Could the Fused inability to do this be a result of powering their magic with a foreign form of Investiture? Perhaps they can hold voidlight within themselves, but it dissipates too quickly if transferred to other objects on Roshar. It has been speculated elsewhere that the speed difference could be due to varying planetary gravity. This makes sense to me because we know that lashings work naturally in integer units of gravity. Kaladin instinctively thinks in terms of one lashing, or a half lashing. He can easily hover by exactly cancelling out the natural gravity. He speeds up, not by continuously adjusting the amount of a lashing, but by applying one lashing on top of another in rapid succession. Odd thing here, though, is that Kaladin must be operating in units of one Rosharan gravity - otherwise he wouldn't be able to hover so easily. But the Fused are originally from Roshar too! So why would their use of lashing be tied to something different such as Braize gravity units? Maybe because they are powering the Surgebinding using voidlight, and Odium is on Braize? Possible question to ask Brandon: is the ratio between how fast a Windrunner vs. Fused can change speed the same as the ratio between mass of Roshar vs. Braize? 3. Amaram He got pretty badass there at the end, but was doing the same things we've already seen from Surgebinders. Amaram was to a regular Fused as Mistborn is to Misting. 4. Renarin Now this is where it gets interesting. We know he has a corrupted spren, but without knowing what a regular Truthwatcher does, there's no way to be sure exactly what effect this had. We do have: So we know there is something voidish going on here. At this point I think it is impossible to tell whether Renarin's visions are pure voidbinding, or some blend of regular Truthwatching with void abilities. 5. The Unmade Definitely powered by Odium, but I do not believe these are voidbinding. It seems that shards have considerable flexibility to act directly themselves (eg. Honor creating Honorblades, Ruin modifying writings, Endowment returning the Returned...) in ways that don't constitute a full magic system. I believe voidbinding will be more like other magic systems which can be accessed by anyone who meets the necessary criteria, while the Unmade are more in line with other unique one-offs done directly by Shards. In short: Stormform, Fused, and Amaram were using Surgebinding, not Voidbinding. The Unmade are something different entirely. Renarin has used Voidbinding, but we know too little to say exactly when or what that was. Almost everything to do with Voidbinding is yet to be seen.

I think he said at least 2, and possibly 3. That's why Stormfather was so surprised.

We're reading a lot into not many words here, but I didn't think Dalinar had recognized Taln at this point. And the sequence of Dalinar counting off Radiant orders, thinking that three were missing, and the Stormfather immediately responding "over there" really sounded to me like Stormfather knew what was up with them.

Nice summary. Ash is suspected to have become a Releaser, in addition to being the Lightweaver Herald.

Tenuous, but intriguing idea! Take my upvote for creative thinking. This would certainly fit with things Mraize said to Shallan about them valuing ambition and initiative among those who want to join the order.

I figure they were named after the appearance of their spren, which is literally a break in the sky (with stars visible through it).

Why would he have assumed that? At this point Dalinar has no idea who these people are - he's seen nothing to indicate they might be Heralds. All he knows is that some strangers showed up out of nowhere, plus "There, the Stormfather said. Behind your niece". Dalinar figures the Stormfather knows what he's talking about, in which case these strangers must represent two of the previously absent three orders. And indeed, Stormfather probably does recognize exactly who these people are.