Fifth of Daybreak

I wanted to put onto paper screen a few thoughts that have been rolling around my head, mostly about the different beliefs put forth by Szeth in Stone Shamanism, but also reinforced by how Listeners treat their dead. I want to bring up some of the relevant source material first. Szeth, WoK The Shin in WoK I think with this in mind, we can at least make some kind of supposition that stone can be analogous to metal or gemstones in some way. I'm not sure I'm entirely in the "Odium is invested in stone" camp yet, but I think that at least stone can capture spiritual connection. We have a couple pieces of evidence for this. First off, I want to point out a section from Szeth above. "His soul would be given to the stones upon his death." There's another piece of evidence from WoR. He states that he is bound to an Oathstone. Up until very recently, I have been under the impression that Szeth does what he does from personal honor, but we don't know much about Stone Shamanism. I believe that his soul was literally bound to his Oathstone. There's this segment from Nalan post the battle of Narak This implies that if there was a bond made between him and an Oathstone, it would have been broken by his death. (I don't know how much of this would be different with the updates, I've got the originals.) Without Nalan's intervention, I assume whatever bond they might have placed between him and the stone would have trapped his soul in the stone for eternity instead of allowing him to move on to the spiritual realm. I think a similar effect manifests across Roshar, which is why it is profane to walk on stone. It's also why the Listeners want their dead to be left to the stones. I don't have enough information to conjecture why it might be beneficial to them or why they might have been led to think so, but the high concentration of invested souls in the souls of the stones outside of Shinovar and Urithiru can explain why it is cursed. It also explains Alethi death rites. Soulcasting for the lighteyes. Literally using magic to remove the body and transform it, casting the soul into something else. Burning for the darkeyes, which is just as fitting. When you pray to the almighty, you burn a prayer. In order to prevent your soul from being invested in the stones, you need to soulcast it or burn it. I also think that Tien has a sense for these sorts of things, and that not all invested stone is necessarily negative. Kaladin repeatedly is cheered up by the stones that Tien gives him. There's been a buzz around about the strata being mentioned, and Tien is one of those to mention strata. Ok, so besides the immediate effects of Kaladin feeling better, I want to point out Hesina saying it's magic and a spren Nalan and Szeth mentioning the spren of the stones, and then also Tien mentioning the Light making the rock change. Edit: I found another piece of text, specifically pertaining to parshendi death Rites, to support the theory.

Well, it's me trying to delete a post haha, but I just gave it a try. A lot has changed in my long absence.

So redefining my theory a little, I wonder if this tidbit from the Eshonai interlude might be relevant to the story. I also think this section from later might point us in that direction as well. So is it possible that the story is entirely factual? The girl managed to trap the stormfather, a spren, in a gem, and bring Stormlight and the storms across whatever barrier the wall represents?

NO SOUP FOR YOU!

That depends on who I'm paying...middlemen get no mark-up from me in this case.

Seems unlikely. For one, if Hoid was relevant to the section, it seems like Shallan would mention it, having not only met him twice, but because she holds enough regard for him that she hugged him on sight the second time she saw him. It also isn't like Hoid's style, and this scene is a pretty good demonstration why. Lightweavers just don't need all the fancy tricks that a theater troop does to put on a show. We've seen that demonstrated when he was Dust in Warbreaker and in both WoK with the Wandersail and WoR with Fleet. Being part of a troop using more mundane methods breaks his usual modus operandi.

I found the quote I was thinking of, and it does say that the thrill ever left Alethkar anyway, and you're referencing way earlier in the book than I had assumed. It's possible that the thrill is getting weaker and so that's why he would regret the lack of a challenge, especially since the war would be about to reach this climax in Jah Keved sometime around the Sadeas viewpoint chapter.

Hadn't the thrill moved off to Jah Keved by then?

Yeah, he gives Kaladin basically the exact same speech when they get out of prison. All of Adolin's actions seemed in character imo.

I don't understand your question. It directly states that this was a play she saw when she was younger.

I posted this on the chapter review thread, but I'm bringing it over here as well for relevancy. I think the story is directly related to this epigraph from WoK. I've got a couple of different reasons. First and foremost, there's a direct parralel with the stairs. It's not a far stretch of the imagination to say that a playwright would take a fragmented poem and recreate it to adapt to their needs. So the girl climbs the wall and see steps leading down into a perfect society where she steals Stormlight and brings it back to her village and that caused the storms. So let's analyze it just a bit. This is supposed to be before the storms and has to do with bringing both Stormlight and storms to greater Roshar in some way. By taking whatever it was back with her, it brought down 'the wall' and the storms came as punishment. But this is allegory. Let's use the allegory to analyze the epigraph and use some information from other places to see if we can't come up with a cogent theory. So I think that one of the Dawnshards, whatever is may be, is responsible for the incredible amounta of investiture in highstorms and a blending of the two stories is a true telling of what happened. He, or the girl who looked up,climbed the steps and took the Dawnshard. This caused him to become so incredibly invested, it attracted a highstorm around him, and created the Stormlight phenomenon. He left the grand temple, where he statues with the apears and the terrible images were, and began to start his/her centuries long travels around Roshar. Essentially, I think that this is the origin story of the strider in the center of the storm. The 'stormlight' that was stolen is a dawnshard that is responsible for the high amounts of investiture in highstorms. Less likely, but I still want to throw this in there, I think that the theft of the Dawnshard could Mark the beginning of the war between the listeners and the humans.

Thanks

Great Chapters this week, even if they take a swipe at one of my theories the week after I start posting them again. I think the strata being described as veins is one of the most important pieces of information in all three chapters. I've been going through WoK and WoR again in preparation for Oathbringer, and I've got a theory I'm going to try to string together tomorrow in the general thread. I know that discussion about the new chapters should be limited to here, but since that's an overarching theory that will be using mostly quotes from the first two books, I assume it's ok to post that on the regular forum and then put the two or three quotes from the new chapters in spoiler tags when I get off work and get around to it tomorrow? For today, I mostly want to focus on Shallan's story. I'm not entirely convinced that it's allegory for the first humans on Roshar. Instead, I think it's more related to this passage: The theft of the Stormlight is because the actors would need to substitute in something for a dawnshard, and what better substitute than Stormlight? It's familiar, yet arcane, and asking people to imagine a time before it exists is great theater. The steps fit almost perfectly. Granted, there's not a lot of meat there, but it's just feels like there's enough of a parralel between the two that historical fog could have shifted enough facts so that the poem and the play are actually describing the same situation. Or they could even be describing the same scenario from two different viewpoints. They definitely seem related in my opinion though.

I've heard of the theory but I've never taken the time to read it through until now. I think I like the idea of him being forced into the role by the pattern better, as it still allows for much of the same "fix" without giving him undue credit. But throw in a Ta'Veren status and we've got a credible reason for why someone could be that lucky all the time.

First and foremost, I pity the fool who doesn't give King T his proper title! Weighing in on the Aviar debate, I'm going to be very disappointed if it is an aviar, strictly for personal reasons. I asked Brandon on Goodreads about the Middlefest Chicken Shallan runs into. If I asked about the wrong chicken Shallan runs into in the wrong book...that's just plain wrong. I do have a couple theories moving forward. I'm going to put them in a spoiler tag, just in case. On Ialai and Sadea's murder On the Listeners with Kaladin On King T

So I recently watched the Clone Wars animated series. There was a lot of Jar Jar Binks for my tastes (I'm sure you understand.) But then I had a thought. This thought. Oh. This thought completely transformed how I viewed Jar Jar. Jar Jar Binks is a Ta'veren. We know just a few things about Ta'veren. They are spun out by the Pattern, which would be analogous in some ways to the force, to correct itself when it begins to drift from the intended pattern. We see them work in a few different ways, mostly by changing the probability of something happening. The impossible never happens, but the very unlikely can happen incredibly often. As unlikely as Qui Gon not using the force to move Jar Jar out of his way and instead letting Jar Jar jump on him before they both fell to the ground and let a giant hover tank run them over ultimately resulting and no bodily harm whatsover. Or that being just the thing needed to save Jar Jar later from whatever crime he committed to get him banned. And no matter how funny that 'bigger fish' quip was Qui Gon, you should thank the flaming Ta'veren in the boat with you that you're still alive. We can see a pretty clear demonstration of the Ta'veren pull at work. The damage to the spaceship forces them to land on Tatooine, where it isn't the Jedis or the royalty who meet Anakin Skywalker, but the other Ta'veren, doing his Ta'veren random chance thing by spitting out a Gorg leg rather than paying for it. On returning to Naboo, Jar Jar is made a Bombad General. That's quite a promotion for someone who was about to be executed, and while he wasn't much good in organized battle, he sure can retreat in style. He was manipulated into giving the Supreme Chancelor, another Ta'veren, emergency powers giving him the ability to form the grand army of the republic. In a mission to Toydaria, Jar Jar displays some impressive skills with his dexterity, and his ability to manipulate people's attention at the same time. On Rodia, he gets mistaken for a Jedi, befriends a giant underwater monster, and they manage to save Amidala. Back on Naboo, he impersonates another gungan and is accepted without question, then goes on to best General Grievous (though, to be honest, that doesn't take much in the Clone Wars.) There's a few other examples out there, but I don't want to dig through the whole clone wars, you get the picture. He was a major player and influence. He discovered Anakin, and in a way connected him to Amidalla and Palpatine by connecting him to the jedi. He was the thread the pattern set out to connect it all together to create the Empire.

Chapter 45, Middlefest page 525 "It turned out that he had finished that meeting only to start another. A man she did not know sat next to Father with a cup of chilled water in one hand. Tall , slender, and blue-eyed, he had deep black hair without a hint of impurity and wore clothing the same shade. He glanced at Shallan as she stepped up into the box. The man started, dropping his cup to the table. He caught it with a swift lunge, keeping it from tipping over , then turned to stare at her with a slack jaw. ... Shallan turned back to the newcomer. She caught, with a subtle movement, the man slipping something from his coat pocket and moving it up toward the drinks. A shock coursed through Shallan. She raised a hand. Poison—"

I agree with all of your post, but this especially. She complements Kaladin in a lot of ways, but already there's seeds to see why the Knights Radiant might have dissolved in the first place. Humans are not meant to live as single faceted ideals, and because of the nature of the spren, Syl's gone when Kaladin most needed an anchor. It's hard not to project feelings from similar experiences I've had irl onto Syl from this perspective.

The first thing I notice about your argument is that you don't even attempt to refute that those actions I specified are indeed morally questionable, instead moving to identify mitigating circumstances. This typifies the exact reason I think Syl is over hyped: her actions deserve a pass because of 'x.' Still, I'm going to try to address your argument. In some ways, Kaladin''s growth is stymied by Syl because she's manipulating him to shape him into who she wants him to be. It is still character growth when he comes to view assassinating Elokhar as surgery to remove a festering wound, even if it's not what might be considered positive character growth. As a matter of fact, Kaladin''s greatest 'positive' character growth comes when he is without Syl during the Weeping towards the end of WoR. "If your sentience which you have just gained back..." Gained back implies loss. Loss implies a lack of choice. The most important nuance to my argument is that Syl chose to lose her sentience and make herself vulnerable despite having the knowledge of what exactly that would entail. If someone chose to do something risky, like bungee jumping, and got severely injured, then went into kidney failure from the antibiotics, I would still consider it morally reprehensible for them to manipulate someone into giving them a kidney, even though their life is at stake. Syl does not lose personal responsibility for her actions and cognizant choices. "It's very understandable to me." There are a great number of morally questionable actions that I can understand the motivations and impetus behind them. That doesn't change the morality of it. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Let me give a clear example. Right before Kaladin jumps into the four shardbearer duel, he worries that things will turn out like they did with Amaram. Syl, only concerned with doing the 'honorable' thing, promises that it will be different. Kaladin ends up in prison. Syl has manipulated his trust in her, broken her own code (albeit without intent), and faces no personal consequences from it.

I think Syl's pass for her actions expires before they come into play. She had. Her 'lost innocence' moment when Kaladin and Bridge Four decided to save Dalinar. Her personality certainly affects innocence and playfulness, but that's not an excuse for other manipulative actions. She's not a child, she remembers enough to be sentient, she understands death, and she remembers what happened to previous spren. More importantly, she remembers choosing to defy the stormfather, and does so again at the end of WoR. For me, having a playful attitude and maintaining childlike wonder doesn't excuse you from manipulation. Like I said, I really like Syl, but she's got a darker side that gets smokescreened by her levity and flippant nature.

Kaladin stuck in traffic: Kaladin sat glumly in his Geo Metro staring up at the sky. The rain pouring down only made the situation worse. Traffic was bad enough without the Weeping to pile things on. He was running late, of course. Not enough Stormlight to fly all the way in. Well, not and be able to fight afterward anyway. That meant traffic, and he always underestimated traffic. The air coming out of the vents bugged him, so he turned it off. It might get a little hot in here, but a man-made breeze was no substitute for proper winds. The window wasn't bad, you could attract a windspren that way, sometimes, in a better car. Kaladin didn't spend enough time practicing to be comfortable driving something that quickly, but he had been with Adolin once when he had tested out one of his new shardcars. Only once. He'd stick with flying. Storming Princling The cars inched forward. Kaladin sighed. He looked over to the left. There was an old man sitting in a silver metal car, a sleek mix of angle and plane. What appeared to be large crates and ropes were affixed to the back, along with a small white cylinder. His white hair shot out in all directions, and he was wearing a strange white suit and yellow gloves that were made of some strange slick material. He saw Kaladin looking and grinned, lowering the goggles over his eyes.. Suddenly, the silver car lurched as the wheels retracted into it. Amazingly, the car began to rise into the sky! A blue light sprayed from the tires, which now pointed downward, flames were shooting out of the back. It shot off into the distance. Growling, Kaladin opened his glove box where he kept his spheres, he pulled them out, held them in his hands, but then put them back. He might need them, and it was still the middle of the Weeping.

Going with the Maxal defense of "don't bring up x if you don't want x to keep coming up in the thread:" I do want to point out that the stick has a POV chapter, therefore, the stick is a character. It's on his website. It's canon, important note for context included. https://brandonsanderson.com/words-of-radiance-deleted-interlude-stick/

I only have one name to add: Patrick Warburton as the man who refers to himself as Taln. Yes, it's very strange, but I feel like he fits the physicality of a (possible) herald, and his voice is dramatic enough to really bring tension to the scene, if he plays it right.

I think it's abundantly obvious I didn't get my point across well at all. I apologise. I have no doubts to your sincerity and I don't think that is your mindset, I was trying to illustrate how some of the things you said could be interpreted that way. Please don't take my post as a rebuke. In no way shape or form do I have anything against you for seeking knowledge. There is no bad blood on my end and I hope my lack of tact has not caused any on yours. I have no intention to push you away or make you feel uncomfortable, nor did I want to shame you in any way.

I definitely agree, and I tried to hedge that as much as possible while still trying to point out that some of the things stated can be problematic if it was in a conversation with a friend or loved one about their attitudes. In no way do I want my post to be interpreted as an attack or as casting doubts on Hafrigado's sincerity. As I stated, I'm not upset or offended, but I do think it would be best to confront those specific issues head on in a setting like this where it is an academic discussion. Also, I did not clearly communicate my meaning in one sentence. I wasn't implying he was stating "this is what it's like," but that those of us who relate to Kaladin are saying "yes, this is depression and is exactly what it feels like."