kaellok

Still better than spamming stormspren.

Well, I was ignoring that aspect to explore the greatest potential for destruction that they each have. It's too easy to boil "who is the deadliest" down to "who would win in a fight." An M1A1 Abrams tank will almost always win against artillery--unless the artillery knows they're coming and are prepared. On the other hand, the artillery is far deadlier on the field of battle than the tanks (and I spent 9 years as a tanker in the army, so I'm biased for tanks). In this example, KR are tanks, channelers are artillery. Unless it was a KR that caused the Shattered Plains, I just don't see how there's any comparison in terms of overall devastation they can cause to an enemy force.

Well, I think that we can agree that a Shardblade would be able to slice through weaves, block weaves, etc., and that Shardplate would block weaves altogether (ala Mat's ter'angreal). So, in a duel, a full Shardbearer Radiant would actually probably win, I think. Now, as for who is just straight up the most deadly? An intelligent, resourceful channeler easily takes the cake. Given a setup equally beneficial to both to see who has the most Destructive Potential (an endless, massive horde of people that stand around and don't fight back) a KR could fairly easily kill hundreds an hour, with higher or lower numbers based upon their Surges (but still easily in the hundreds per hour range). Skybreakers, Windrunners, and Edgedancers may make it into low thousands due to their mobility advantages. A channeler can be expected to be at least in the thousands per hour with the same set up. Channelers are more vulnerable than the KR, though, so even as their destructive potential increases, so does their risk. And eventually a channeler will be too tired to continue, so after a good 3-4 hours their potential decreases, and will keep going down until they stop altogether. A KR will not necessarily face this problem, so if a fight lasts long enough they'll eventually overtake the channeler. In a more realistic setup, though, a channeler and a KR would both be supported with some kind of army or force of their own. As long as the channeler remained protected, they'd be able to rain death and destruction on the enemy with far more effect than a KR cutting their way through. Of course, we haven't seen any good examples of KR in war, while we have lots of wartime channelers, so I might be completely off--but based on what we know of each so far, those are my thoughts.

thanks, potato! just one more bit of evidence to prove that potatoes, in every form and incarnation, are awesome

Storming touchscreen! I think I accidentally downvoted your story-post, EMTrevor. Can someone counter that with an upvote? That story was, in a word, great.

Echoing what Numb said about thinking that the back cover flaps are written post-SA (or at least after the First Five arc). It is also deeply connected to Roshar, so I would assume it's a native of Roshar writing it, or someone who's lived their so long they consider it their homeland, rather than a worldhopper. So, honestly, I very much doubt that Hoid wrote it, even though the story-aspect of it fits him; the personal-connection is what's missing, and makes me think it's someone else. Really, the more I read the flaps (which I've now done a half dozen times in the past several minutes), it seems like the narrator of a play--setting the scene and the mood for the audience. But, more than anything, I think that it's Honor speaking. The wistfulness, the not-quite useful information, and the longing for the way things could have been but aren't all remind me of the times Honor speaks to Dalinar in his visions. The cadence, the rhythm, is off, but that's still my best guess for now.

So, she'll treat him like Kaladin starts treating Syl? If so, I definitely hope that Pattern calls her on it, just like I wish Syl would have called Kal on it in WoK and again in WoR. I really like both of those spren, and they deserve much better than that. Also, I went back to re-read the section in question again, and noticed something new: I really think that at least a part of the emotion she's feeling is directed at her dead mother, as well. If her mother hadn't gone crazy, then Shallan wouldn't have had to kill her in order to live, and the life she could have had would have been perfect (in her mind). So, there's a whole lot of tangled, mixed emotions going on in the scene, and where it goes from there is left basically completely unresolved.

So, I think your analysis of the "Primary" attribute is spot-on--that's the attribute that attracts the spren in the first place. The Secondary, however, I'm not sure that I agree (or understand?) entirely with what you're saying. It seems that the Secondary is what the spren work to change the people into being (wow, that sentence is terribly awkward, I apologize). Syl likes Kal because he wants to protect people, but she keeps pushing him to be a leader of the Bridgemen, rather than just trying to protect them. The massive number of creations-spren around Shallan when she draws Pattern implies to me that he's attracted to creativity in the same way, but he pushes her to be honest (even when she tells lies, she is usually being honest with them). Dalinar's piety brought him closer to the Almighty's spren, and the visions are there to try to help him guide people through the Final Desolation; speculation would be that if the Almighty were still alive, there'd be more direct help. So, I guess it's not so much that the bond makes them act in the way of the Secondary, so much as the Secondary is the result of the spren's influence.

Oh god, Cromptj. Upvote for the typo--that would've been hilarious.

Excellent points, maxal.

Is it possible that the shape of Roshar changes with each Desolation? The map from WoK says it's from the Silver Kingdoms Epoch, but I couldn't easily find any information on exactly when that is. The Coppermind wiki says during the Heraldic Epochs, but the references it listed didn't mention that at all. Also, I couldn't remember any specific information regarding it. The Silver Kingdoms could just as easily have been the time period when the Radiants ruled after the Heralds left, right? (Or am I forgetting/missing something yet again?) Somewhat curious about this because the names 'prisoner' and 'escapee' sets make me think of the Heralds being held prisoner and being tortured over and over until the break or escape. Probably a stretch, and I tried looking into it myself, but discovered that I'm well out of my depth on this hah.

Or we could have people stop posting spoilers in the title. What's the problem with "Thoughts on Bondsmiths" for a title, and having the very first post be exactly the same as bdoble97 wrote? The problem with having a spoiler like "WHY DOES ADOLIN MURDER SADEAS!?" in the title is that, even if 99% of the people coming to the page have read the book, why on earth would you be okay with upsetting the remaining 1% when it would take seconds to be just a little courteous? Using the spoiler tags in the forum is silly and keeping the title as "*SPOILERS* WHY DOES ADOLIN MURDER SADEAS?!" is ridiculous; but spending just 30 seconds in thought to come up with a title that gets your point across just seems the smart thing to do. The request for non-spoiler titles has nothing to do with the spoiler button you can press to hide text inside of a post and never has, so seriously, you can kill that argument. Towards OP: I was initially thinking that Bondsmiths would have a role to play in the creation of Shardplate (but not Shardbades). There's a couple of threads dedicated to just what Plate is and how it's made that made me change my mind. I do think that Moogle's got his role nailed down, though, with forging the metaphorical bonds between people and nations.

Being emotionless isn't mentioned anywhere as being one of the 'special' things of Skybreakers, but having an uncanny ability to separate the guilty from the innocent is. Epigraphs from Chapter 54 and 55, both taken from in-world Words of Radiance Chapter 28, page 3 (emphasis added): So that it seems pretty clear to me that that would be their 'something extra.'

He was of average intelligence that day, Mat. Just a few paragraphs down from where you mention this is discussed:

I never did like wargs, so my vote goes to the whitespine! Not very scientific or anything, but sometimes wishful thinking works out, right?

I never did understand all the hate Nynaeve gets when there's Elayne around. I mean, sure, her personality turned into just two specific actions/reactions/whatever, but that's still more personality than Elayne

I wasn't trying to make you give up or go away, maxal, and I apologize if you think I was. I was just trying to help you understand her character better, so that you can get more enjoyment out of the books. I felt at least as strongly against Kaladin as you do against Kaladin for quite some time after reading WoR, to the point that I literally thought the book was better to have a good 50% of his PoV chapters removed (or more). I spent a lot of time yelling and arguing in a couple different forums about how much I didn't like him, but other people offering explanations let me appreciate him as a character more--that's all I was trying to do for you. Sanderson has done a rather phenomenal job in WoR with presenting broken and flawed characters that can still be sympathetic or relatable while also behaving in incredibly believable ways. I've definitely enjoyed the discussion that you started, even if I disagree with you, and I would hope you could say the same.

You're still missing the point, maxal. For one thing, how is she being a hypocrite? As my favorite example, Kaladin is far more of a hypocrite: he hates the lighteyes because they treat all darkeyes poorly, simply because of their eye color--and yet he does exactly the same thing. The one instance I can think of Shallan being a hypocrite is in the chapter Errogance in WoK, where Jasnah rightfully calls her out in exhibiting attributes that she dislikes in others. Next, relationships with people are complicated. I find people annoying. ALL people. My natural state is to be annoyed with everyone. This doesn't mean that I don't like my friends. I love my girlfriend and family probably 99% of the time. But, there's still that little 1% in there, where sometimes no, I just don't. Is that a good thing? Probably not. But ya know what? There's people that I hate 99% of the time, too--but 1% of the time I don't. No emotion of mine is absolute and pure, and so I don't expect others to have absolute emotions either. Regarding the manipulation she has done, I again think you are being unfair. Dalinar is responsible for far more manipulation, on a far grander scale than Shallan. And you know what? Neither of them are doing it for unfair, or illogical, or innately poor reasons. The worst manipulation she actually does is against Sebrial, by setting her own generous salary--which she then works hard to justify, ending up being a net huge profit to him. So, even in the cases where she is manipulating people, they end up better off for it. I get that you don't like Shallan; after WoR, I don't like Kaladin much myself. And I feel sorry for Syl. Why? Because Kaladin killed her. Both of them have flaws, both of them are attempting to overcome them, and both are succeeding to a greater or lesser degree. The kinds of responses you're wanting from Shallan only make sense from a third-person omniscient point of view; basically, if she could read minds, or know the intent and reasonings that the various Kholinar's have, and how they would react. Such a demand is illogical; it's fine to have, but please do try to remember this when you're judging a character. I have a hard time doing this with Kaladin in WoR, so please don't think that I'm just finding fault with you. I identify very strongly with Shallan, for a huge number of reasons. Kaladin? Not as much.

Well Kasimir, that's a whole lot of times that they mentioned sphere lanterns that I just didn't notice--wow. My brain just kept 'seeing' spheres, but not the lantern part. I'm now inclined to think, based on your response to my challenge, that this could very well have been Adolin sucking in some Stormlight. It's easily possible he only absorbed a little, and used it up in a short period of time--when he was absorbed in the moment and disposing of the evidence. Not noticing that you're glowing when you just accidentally murdered a highprince doesn't seem like a stretch, to me. So then, the other quibble I would have is that 'surge' wasn't italicized for Adolin, but it was for Shallan. Maybe to serve as a nod and wink from Brandon to encourage speculation on our part? That, along with his sly comments that some Radiant orders wouldn't be opposed to what he had done, seem to suggest that.

Leonardus, you're right, they don't seem to make sense in the context we currently see them. So, I decided to think about them differently! What if the Ryshadium can turn into Shardplate? Because of...magic! Or something. Okay, maybe not.

Kasimir, I can't recall a single other time where "lantern" meant "lantern that had an infused sphere inside of it to produce light." Seloun's specific quotes say lantern, which leads me to think that it means lantern. Further, in the quote you provide, there is a clear distinction between lantern and sphere, so one would assume the author would continue to use such a distinction to make it easy to tell exactly what they're using for illumination. Regarding Surgebinding running in a family, I definitely think that it will tend to do so. Mr T seemed to think that Heleran may have provided training to Shallan (sorry, don't have access to the books right now, or I'd provide specific quote.) I wouldn't be terribly surprised if we find out that Kaladin's father is bond-worthy, either, in much the same way that the Interlude cobbler was.

Shallan is awesome. I understand that people disagree with me, but they're also usually the ones who think that Kaladin's story arc in WoR was super-awesome-wonderful-best-thing-ever and so I don't really mind not understanding them. Even though responding to your objections isn't going to change your opinion on her as a character, it might let you see her in a less unfavorable light. The reason she mentions hating Pattern is that if the bond with Pattern had never happened, she would have never killed her mother, her father wouldn't have become abusive, her life wouldn't have been destroyed. But, at the same time, she doesn't really mean it. NeutroniumAlchemist already said this, so I'm merely repeating, but still. Maybe you've never said something that was a little bit true but a lot lie--I know I have. Frequently. Actually, let's talk about those lies. She grew up in a household with a father that became increasingly abusive over time, who also had a fair amount of legal control over every aspect of her life and the life of her brothers. Growing up in an abusive house can mess you up something fierce; believe me. Lies can become a kind of comfort, because they are a different world that you create to live inside, if only for a time, so that you're not just living in the same awful one all of the time. However, focus on the type of lies she tells; she said that she would take care of pardons to the deserters, and she did. She keeps her word about important things, and only lies about things that have little or no possibility of causing direct harm to others--when infiltrating Amaram's stronghold, she even goes out of her way to make sure the maid she's impersonating won't get into trouble! She lies about who she is, and her motivations, but that's really about it. She agreed to be taught by Tyn because it was the easier path, and diverted Tyn's attention away from her. Actually, just everything Observer said regarding Ghostbloods and Tyn is absolutely spot-on, I'd say, so I won't bother repeating it. Regarding not telling Adolin she's a Radiant--how should I explain this. She likes him, and she thinks he likes her. But it turns out that she has a power that's feared by the world. The world. What do you expect her to say? "Hey, I just met you, and this is crazy, but I'm a Radiant, call me maybe?" Chances are quite good their fledgling relationship would suffer. To the exact same ends, why doesn't Kaladin tell anyone he's a Radiant? He did his damnedest to hide it from Bridge Four for a long time, and then deliberately didn't tell or let anyone else know--for basically the exact same reasons. And of course she's using her fiancé for her own reasons; she's been 100% up-front about it. But that doesn't mean there isn't more to it than that. It turns out people can have multiple motivations for a single act or action, with some of them being 'good' or 'pure' and others being 'selfish' or 'mean.' I don't see why you are upset that she won't be 'coming clean' about the Ghostbloods to Dalinar. What would she 'come clean' about? If she were going to, why would she confide in him? It's not like the two of them have spent a great deal of time in each other's company; if anything, she should be telling Adolin about this. Now then, what she should be doing at some point is letting everyone know about Amaram, but that's a different issue. The Ghostbloods are a (admittedly dangerous) avenue to knowledge that would be impossible for her to get otherwise. Mr T is willing to murder thousands for a few sentences that may or may not mean anything; Shallan is willing to spy on someone who seems to be working towards ending the world. Also, ever heard the phrase "Keep my friends close, my enemies closer"? They were responsible for killing Jasnah (as far as Shallan knows). Finding out why is a very important task. Both from Shallan's point of view, and mine (knowing that Gavilar thought the Ghostbloods were behind his assassination makes me want to know so much more about them.) I think I've rambled on far too long anyway, but yeah--Shallan is my favorite character in the SA who isn't Stick or Lift. If you can't stand that she uses lies as weapons to reveal or find the truth, that's your prerogative, and I won't judge you for it--but I will absolutely disagree with you that she's nothing but a selfish, self-centered liar (which is what your post seems to imply even if it doesn't straight up say it.)

During Dalinar's vision with Nahodan, we learn that they had Surgebinders, but the Knights Radiant don't seem to have formed yet. I don't have access to my books right now--does anyone know/remember who told us that it had been 99 Desolations? Although we're all speculating here, we're not just using baseless speculation. As I said before, it makes a lot of sense for each Desolation to end the Epoch that came before it. If your religious history that permeates much of life believes that you came to the world from somewhere else, it also makes sense to me to consider that the First Age, or the Golden Age, or the Everything is Perfect Because we are With God Age or whatever else you want to call it. We just don't have access to the information on what ended each age, so we each go with what we think is most believable/rational/logical. Now that I've done more math and worked in my own "reasonable" numbers, well, 99 Desolations seems way too many. I should have started with math, but I was tired at the time ;D In Dalinar's vision in the chapter Starfall, where he talks with the two Radiants and fights the Midnight Essence, his 'wife' implies there hasn't been a Desolation in her life-time, which I'm assuming is ~30 years old. However, there's still some sort of legend or history regarding Desolations, so the memory hasn't faded completely--meaning to me that one has happened within the last 5 generations (150 years). Even if we assume that there's generally 100 years from the start of one Desolation until the start of the next, that's still a good ~10,000 years this has been going on. Tempus's argument that 100k years is too long for anyone to not do anything about it is very reasonable and nearly as applicable to a much smaller number (like 10-20k years) as well. If it's actually been 4500 years since the last Desolation, given the focus on symmetry, then I would guess that there were 4500 years of Desolations before. I'm still not convinced on the only 9 Desolations thing, but the numbers I can come up with just don't seem reasonable otherwise. Fezzes are cool.

I could see Nightblood being able to destroy the dead Shardblades, but not, say, Syl.

I believe that you are incorrect. First, you estimate that there's a minimum of 11 years between Desolations. There is no reason to believe this. A Desolation begins when a Herald breaks and returns to Roshar; WoB implies this to be true. Second, there is some unknown length of time after a Desolation that the Heralds can exist--it's highly probable that during this time any that survived would set out creating a base of knowledge for them to draw upon in order to jumpstart the race back to the top. Just knowing what technology is possible can result in massive leaps forward; think of all the centuries wasted in our own history because "it can't be done." We can also look to the time difference between Mistborn: HoA and AoL; 300 years sees them in a Steam Age equivalent. I'd say that 1000 years in between is far too generous. Also, given Dalinar's vision in Starfall, progress to 'advanced' technology wasn't a given. Third, there are unknown tens of thousands of years that happened during the 99 Desolations. At least, I'm completely unaware of any timeline for them, or when it started in relation to everything else. All I have been able to find is that Hoid pre-dates the Heralds (those words, not 'is older than,' which seems deliberately odd but is a different subject). Fourth, the amount of destruction each Desolation caused was not absolute. Nahodan's time saw 90% destroyed. We have little evidence for the rest of the Desolations that occurred. I think that the Eighth Epoch could be renamed The Epoch of the Desolations. It's possible that they are counting some other significant event as the start; there's a WoB somewhere about mageocracies and theocracies and many other different kinds of huge governing bodies existing throughout Roshar's history, but not really much detail on when. So, it could quite easily be First Epoch -- Life in the Tranquilline Halls Second Epoch -- Settling on Roshar Third Epoch -- Everything is Cool Fourth Epoch -- First Desolation Fifth Epoch -- Mages rule everything Sixth Epoch -- Desolation kills everyone. dark ages again Seventh Epoch -- Priests rule everything Eight Epoch -- Radiants are founded So, while you put a lot of thought into your theory, and it makes a lot of sense to count each Desolation as the beginning of a new Epoch (it does, even though I'm arguing against you; that's by far your strongest point because it's logical to count time from the last time the world was basically destroyed and started over again) I just don't think it's right.