Shardcast: Movie News!? 2022 Words of Brandon Part 2

I don’t think Taravangian will be more Passion than Rayse was. Rayse was in denial about the nature of the Shard, it is more than hatred, but it’s mostly hatred.

Rayse pretending it’s Passion is part of why he couldn’t control the Shard very well and it developed a mind of its own.

Taravangian doesn’t have the same hang up. When Hoid senses he’s not talking to Rayse he asks Taravangian who he is. Taravangian just says “Odium”.

But wasn't it Taravangian's raw/extreme emotion (on his low intelligence day) that let him Connect so well to the Shard?

I agree Rayse was trying to sell (even to himself) Odium as something it isn't (all emotion) - but I do think it's broader than hatred, from Dalinar and Venli's experiences and Taravangian taking it up. I think Odium represents aggressive/conflict-driving emotions, anger and hate and probably fear too, but not "gentle" emotions like love or humor or happiness or contentment.

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

But wasn't it Taravangian's raw/extreme emotion (on his low intelligence day) that let him Connect so well to the Shard?

I agree Rayse was trying to sell (even to himself) Odium as something it isn't (all emotion) - but I do think it's broader than hatred, from Dalinar and Venli's experiences and Taravangian taking it up. I think Odium represents aggressive/conflict-driving emotions, anger and hate and probably fear too, but not "gentle" emotions like love or humor or happiness or contentment.

Yeah I think that is the theme of his emotions, conflict and aggression. From what little we got of Taravangian's POV after ascending he has the logical side that wants to plan and the emotional side that is all "burn, kill".  Frost and Hoid consider the Shard to be Hatred and Harmony thinks all the destruction is what the Shard truly wants.

It's weird that a god of powerful emotions routinely takes them away from his followers. It's his main selling point to Moash and Dalinar. My crack theory is Odium only uses those other emotions as fuel for the Hatred. 

Taravangian will be great as the book 5 villain. I kind of hope he doesn't last beyond that. I'm more curious to meet the Shard since it has a mind of it's own and can talk.  I really like idea that the divine hatred of a specific god has a mind and it's real mad that 16 people killed the god and stole that god's power. It's got a hit list it's going through. 

22 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah I think that is the theme of his emotions, conflict and aggression. From what little we got of Taravangian's POV after ascending he has the logical side that wants to plan and the emotional side that is all "burn, kill".  Frost and Hoid consider the Shard to be Hatred and Harmony thinks all the destruction is what the Shard truly wants.

It's weird that a god of powerful emotions routinely takes them away from his followers. It's his main selling point to Moash and Dalinar. My crack theory is Odium only uses those other emotions as fuel for the Hatred. 

Taravangian will be great as the book 5 villain. I kind of hope he doesn't last beyond that. I'm more curious to meet the Shard since it has a mind of it's own and can talk.  I really like idea that the divine hatred of a specific god has a mind and it's real mad that 16 people killed the god and stole that god's power. It's got a hit list it's going through. 

Has it developed a mind of its own yet? I thought that for a Shard to do that the power has to be left alone for some time, and Rayse had it since the Shattering until Taravangian picked it up.

It is really strange that Odium takes powerful emotions away, I like your theory. I've always seen a parallel between those exchanges and the Adolin/Maya scene in ROW (Sacrifice). Adolin is feeling a lot of strong emotion, righteous anger etc. and he gives Maya strength.

Quote

Maya’s voice grew louder, gasping breaths punctuated by ragged howls. And in that moment, Adolin … felt her pain somehow. A deep agony. And … anger?...

Take it, Adolin thought to her. Take some of my strength. She looked right at him, and despite her scratched-out eyes, she saw him. Adolin felt something, a warmth deep within him. Maya drew in air, filling her lungs.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (STORMLIGHT ARCHIVE) . Orion. Kindle Edition. 

It's almost like the opposite: he feels Maya's pain and gives her strength. My crack theory is that this is related to Odium becoming a true part of Roshar (through BAM etc.) and that we're seeing a kind of Radiant bond that involves that power and not just Honor/Cultivation.

23 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah I think that is the theme of his emotions, conflict and aggression. From what little we got of Taravangian's POV after ascending he has the logical side that wants to plan and the emotional side that is all "burn, kill".  Frost and Hoid consider the Shard to be Hatred and Harmony thinks all the destruction is what the Shard truly wants.

It's weird that a god of powerful emotions routinely takes them away from his followers.

I've seen it argued (and pretty much agree) that given Venli's observation that Odium-the-power wants conflict and disagreement even when Rayse wants to be obeyed without question, Odium is ultimately the Shard of Conflict the way Honor is of Oaths/Bonds.

I like that idea specifically because it helps distinguish Odium from Ruin... an urge to destroy is shared by Ruin, but Ruin would be happier unopposed, whereas what Odium really wants is the fight.

Yeah, the Void/taking away emotions vs the burning hate/fury dichotomy is weird. I do wonder if he can do that for emotion in general though... in both Moash's case, and his offer to Dalinar, it was guilt being removed. Maybe that's not against his Intent since being without guilt makes someone better at conflict? IDK.

5 hours ago, Mzuka said:

Has it developed a mind of its own yet? I thought that for a Shard to do that the power has to be left alone for some time, and Rayse had it since the Shattering until Taravangian picked it up.

It is really strange that Odium takes powerful emotions away, I like your theory. I've always seen a parallel between those exchanges and the Adolin/Maya scene in ROW (Sacrifice). Adolin is feeling a lot of strong emotion, righteous anger etc. and he gives Maya strength.

It's almost like the opposite: he feels Maya's pain and gives her strength. My crack theory is that this is related to Odium becoming a true part of Roshar (through BAM etc.) and that we're seeing a kind of Radiant bond that involves that power and not just Honor/Cultivation.

I think it's heavily implied to have developed a mind of its. When Rayse appears to Sja-Anat, Moash and Dalinar they see a bright gold light  rapidly moving around beneath his skin like something trying to break out. 

After Rayse essentially loses against Dalinar in OB Rayse says  "No. No. We killed you. We Killed you!" . Talks in plural and repeats himself in a slightly different font.  The schism between the Shard and the Vessel is widening he says it twice because once is the Vessel talking and the other is the Power talking. 

What Harmony says in the epigraphs is essentially "I think this shard is poorly controlled and Shards can develop minds of their own if not controlled well for a long time."

The final thing is that after Rayse is dead the shard talks to Taravangian. That didn't happen with Ruin and Preservation. 

Quote

Take me. the power pled, speaking not in words but in emotion. You are perfect. I am yours.

Ch. 113 RoW

We could say it's just Taravangian interpreting something as the Shard talking to him, but I think it talked to him in its way. 

Taravangian and the Shard:

On how Hoid got a spren. 
 

Hoid grumbles at one point that the Gods of Roshar are a annoyingly strict when it comes to making a bond. I got the impression that with Honour dead and the heralds imsane, there was a lot less oversight this time with Testament than there would have been any other time in history. 

Basically, anyone who would have said no is gone. And for the first time une millennia, spren are willing to bond. 
 

I think "mind of its own" might be a bit of an overstatement - at least if by "mind" one means a sapient mind - but Odium-the-power as distinct from Rayse was definitely developing a will or at least desires of its own to some degree. It might be more like an animal-level mentality, emotion without reason or language ... perhaps something like the Thrill, Nergaoul's drive to fight... but there is something there.

The Dor 'wanting to be used' (attacks on Raoden) might also be similar? Or that could just be pressure buildup...

2 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think "mind of its own" might be a bit of an overstatement - at least if by "mind" one means a sapient mind - but Odium-the-power as distinct from Rayse was definitely developing a will or at least desires of its own to some degree. It might be more like an animal-level mentality, emotion without reason or language ... perhaps something like the Thrill, Nergaoul's drive to fight... but there is something there.

The Dor 'wanting to be used' (attacks on Raoden) might also be similar? Or that could just be pressure buildup...

That's a good point.  It asks Taravangian to take it up, so it clearly feels it needs a Vessel and the Vessel basically serves as the decision-making mind that directs it.  

I think it's more sapient and able to act on it's own than the other Shards we've encountered. Maybe like you say animal-level, a horse trying to buck Rayse off for all of RoW because it thinks he's a lousy rider.   

21 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

That's a good point.  It asks Taravangian to take it up, so it clearly feels it needs a Vessel and the Vessel basically serves as the decision-making mind that directs it.  

I think it's more sapient and able to act on it's own than the other Shards we've encountered. Maybe like you say animal-level, a horse trying to buck Rayse off for all of RoW because it thinks he's a lousy rider.   

Yeah, that's how I see it. There's more there than most Shards, a mind is forming, but not sapience - yet. (If Taravangian hadn't been there it probably would have become sapient eventually, IMO.) As of RoW it's probably more like the non-sapient spren, with distinct behaviors and things it's attracted to (like painspren attracted to pain or gravity spren attracted to heavy objects), rather than the truespren like Syl or Pattern.

I don't think Odium could have even left Rayse on its own initiative.

The "Take me up!" part makes me visualize Odium as an abandoned puppy crawling into a new human's arms, lol.

On 8/11/2022 at 0:13 AM, Child of Hodor said:

That's a good point.  It asks Taravangian to take it up, so it clearly feels it needs a Vessel and the Vessel basically serves as the decision-making mind that directs it.  

I think it's more sapient and able to act on it's own than the other Shards we've encountered. Maybe like you say animal-level, a horse trying to buck Rayse off for all of RoW because it thinks he's a lousy rider.   

Ok I see where you're coming from, think I'm convinced. The idea of this Shard becoming sapient and going on that revenge tour is really interesting as well, I kind of want to see that happen.

Great episode. I'm excited to hear that you all continued the discussion on the June spoiler stream Words of Brandon, and that you also touched on the latest news about movie and TV adaptations. 

It's always interesting to hear what Brandon Sanderson has to say. I really love your reasoning and opinions on this. You always provide good insights and deep arguments. I am also a soccer fan in addition to you. And I recently had a problem with the connection. My friends recommended https://onlinetvcast.com/guides/how-to-watch-fubotv-in-mexico. Maybe it will help you too.