Shardcast: Moash

Maddie The Survivor · May 9, 2021

This is perfect! I am not a huge fan of Moash, so I’m excited about this!

IHateVyre · May 9, 2021

Well, you can tell from my username...

basement_boi · May 9, 2021

Even if our perception of Moash changed in Oathbringer, another issue I have is that Moash murdered Elhokar while he was carrying his own child. Right in front of him!

Edit: My thoughts on Moash haven’t changed much, but I now know the mistakes you can make when commenting before finishing the video

Edited May 10, 2021 by basement_boi

King Krooked · May 9, 2021

I just wanted to thank Grey for saying some things that definitely needed to be said about the anger of the oppressed being villainized, and how there really aren't many differences between "good lighteyes" and "bad lighteyes". She made a lot of valid points from very nuanced angles, and as a POC, I wanted her to know that her views were very appreciated.

Honorless · May 9, 2021

This was awesome! It's super late at night where I am right now and this was just the perfect ending to my day. I'll probably respond more properly to this tomorrow, but fair warning, most of it is going to be quotes taken from the episode and very happy emojis.

Edit: here are the highlights! I'll put them in a spoiler box so nobody gets spoiled

Spoiler

"Broadly, the fandom-wide discussion on Moash has been light on nuance"

"Many in the cast have done much, much worse things but they haven't been as personal to the reader. Szeth has killed many, many monarchs & not for any personal reasons either, just because someone told him to. (Dalinar) burning many, many innocent people at the Rift is more morally wrong than trying to unsuccessfully get your friend to kill himself"

"Kaladin has a very 'us' vs 'them' mentality and in OB Elhokar went from 'them' to 'us'. Fans felt that betrayal of Kaladin."

"For Dalinar, we see the end results of the redemption first. Without two books of setting up Dalinar as this good person, the flashbacks in OB would've tanked reader reliability to the character. With Moash, we're not seeing how ascent, we're seeing his descent"

"The only thing that's different is which god they went to. Dalinar couldn't take his guilt & his pain. He was lucky that Cultivation was willing to do something that would help him become a better person. People blame Moash for asking Odium to take him pain & guilt away, but Dalinar did the same thing. Odium is just doing it in a toxic, addictive way.

Cultivation did take Dalinar's pain away. He spent a good few years not in a Odium haze of give me the 'no-feeling drug', free of that emotional burden."

"He's pretty far gone in RoW. He can't see why he's doing what he's doing anymore. He doesn't want to feel the pain anymore. He wants Kaladin to kill himself. He has a warped viewpoint where he sees it as a mercy

It's also notable that in RoW, a certain someone who is literally confirmed to have committed genocide at one point is portrayed with more nuance than Moash is.

How many Moash kick-the-dog moments is that? Elhokar X 2, Jezrien, Kal, Teft.

I sometimes feel like the social inequality discourse is completely getting transferred from Lighteyes/Darkeyes to Singers/humans. And that's not great, because that's really invalidating a lot of issues.

"Redemption and accountability. Sometimes redemption arcs have an absence of accountability for what someone's done. It's letting a bad character off the hook."

Szeth: he killed all these people and wait, he's on our side in this battle, He was in jail for a time and Navani had an angry scene with him, that was it, now Dalinar's bodyguard.

Dalinar: a few snarky comments from the Mink & one angry scene with Adolin. He's still in his position of power. Married to the love of his life, Navani. Renarin, whom he completely & utterly neglected is unfailingly supportive of him & loves him. Kaladin still trusts him. Jasnah & him are closer than ever. Adolin is literally the only one who had any negative reaction to the revelations.

"If the character is redeemed than the narrative is telling me that they're not responsible for what they did anymore

Oh, he's a good person now. Dalinar still burned an entire city alive. How does he "make up" for that? Dalinar will always have killed a whole bunch of people and he can't get rid of that. You can't get rid of that debt."

Dalinar's war crimes + Moash as an abuser to Kaladin:

Relationship between redemption & forgiveness. "Forgiveness in some situations might never be appropriate. Even if there's no potential for forgiveness in a healthy way, there's still potential for redemption outside of that/those relationship(s).

A lot of people react negatively to redemption because in their heart, they know that this is unfair. Redemption & forgiveness are inherently unfair, they're not on the table till someone has done something bad. No one deserves to be redeemed or forgiven. If they need to be redeemed/forgiven it means they did something bad enough to require that. They did something bad and it can't be undone. And we have the unfair action of letting ourself be okay with that. For some people, forgiveness is not on the table because you can't be okay with that. Forgiveness is a deeply unfair thing."

"So much of the Stormlight Archive is about people moving on from the bad things they've done and learning to live with themselves. Learning to be honourable in their own way, after having done very dishonorable things.

Moash isn't further away from that than any of the other characters. He could be a good Dustbringer. They're about self-mastery. Moash at his best, was full of a lot of righteous anger at the things that had been done to him. And there's room in the books for righteous anger to be a good thing. Especially with Odium as god's anger, removed from any context."

"What is all that pain Odium is taking away from Moash/Vyre, it's guilt. He comes up against accountability for his actions for a second and he breaks down. That definitely does not read as someone who's so far gone that they could never come back. That's someone who's teetering on the brink, does he want to commit to this thing that he thinks is taking away all his pain or does he still want to become that person that Renarin showed him. Who Moash is with the no-emotions drug is different from who Moash is by himself. Moash is trying to convince himself that he's that person: "I'm not sorry that I killed Teft, I'm just sorry that I feel about it". If Odium isn't there, making him not sorry, he is."

"What makes someone impossible to redeem is if they don't want to be redeemed. Right now Moash is like "I don't want to be redeemed, I'm not doing anything wrong". If he wanted it, that makes him deserving of it because that's how redemption works for everybody. He's just as deserving of redemption as anybody the moment he asks for it & decides that he wants it."

(I'll say there were extenuating circumstances: Moash's feelings, that eventually led to all of this were valid. He got railroaded hard, basically for his entire life, and right now he's mentally incapable of asking for help)

"He was the only one who was angry enough to want to divest himself from the Kholins and not be brought into the fold, he did not want to be a part of that system and that's legitimate. We kind of see all the good guys fall in line (as of RoW, exception of Venli, Leshwi & the Listeners!). Yeah, guess I'll follow Dalinar. Good guys follow the Kholins, good guys follow Dalinar. (We!) want to see someone who's a good person not do that. Readers have legitimate reason to resent Dalinar and his good life as the leader of (the Alethi & the Coalition) & Knights Radiant grates a little. It'll be nice to see the other side. Someone who's treated by the narrative as a good person, and who does not want to be a part of that. Who doesn't like the status quo. It'll be nice to see them validated"

(This is exactly how I felt about the entire Odium as the enemy against whom all must forget all past grievances and unite in the face of. With Venli & the Singers arc in RoW, I got kinda sceptical that Moash will be redeemed. I saw that a lot of people also felt the same way about Moash in RoW, like Brandon wants us to hate him now, but also possibly emphasis on the "now", so he can go "gotcha, lol" later. But Moash as the anti-Kaladin, the foil also got really solidified in this book but that arc also felt completed in a way, idk guess we'll see)

I think it's a real possibility that Moash tries but dies, yeah. I never really thought about it that way with Hrathen though, really good point there.

Oh wow, that is a really good point too, Moash could've done worse in the name of vengeance. Eye for an eye, with his family & Elhokar's but he still went after Elhokar himself.

Would also note the idea of undirected anger, fuelled by a sense of vengeance, hurting people who are technically innocent and not responsible for the hurt. I can see where that's coming from, but this technically does not apply to Elhokar, who was responsible for Moash's grandparents imprisonment & his own enslavement. Also, generalizing an entire group for the actions of the few might not be good but it also doesn't change the fact that the group has near total power over other people, not based on anything but being born to the right people, with the right superficial characteristics, rather than any merit. There are entire systems in place that encourage and maintain that.

Moash seeing Kaladin as a Darkeyes sellout and getting brainwashed by Dalinar is a good point would've made a lot of sense, shame that it wasn't explored at all.

Kaladin & retirement & therapy was such a nice plotline, I hope he steps down in the back half of Stormlight and just gets to heal.

Ooh, so much validation in this ep. Moash's hatred for Elhokar and the whole Vorin lighteyes-darkeyes social strata structure is totally legitimate.

"Making Moash the irredeemable, bad minority who doesn't go along with the Kholin ruling class, like good, oppressed person Kaladin, who learns his anger is not good and sometimes Lighteyes are nice.... is kinda problematic" Yes! Yes, it is!

It really feels like Moash is the only character who's still connected to how Darkeyes are treated. His PoVs in OB were very poignant with this. Now it feels like the whole issue was shoved under the carpet because the way it was dealt with with Kaladin's character was: oh look there are good people on the other side also magic: you're no longer a Darkeyes! That does nothing to address the issue and felt like it was invalidating all the discourse about inequality.

I think this goes back to Words of Radiance setting Dalinar up as the "not all of us are bad" and OB carrying that theme forward.
It isn't about you being good or bad.
It's about someone being put into a position where their only available option is relying on your continued goodwill. That is a very demeaning position to be put into, to put it very lightly.

This is exactly what we saw with Kaladin being sent to jail and having to learn to trust Dalinar & put his well-being in his hands. Just how does that address the issue that Elhokar tried to (& would've successfully) have Kaladin executed for questioning a Lighteyes and the wrong that Amaram did to Kaladin, killing his friends & selling him to slavery in return for saving his life?

Spoiler

Definitely true, Brandon has a theme of "nobles can be good!" that can come off as apologistic. A lot of Brandon's stories are stories of the nobles to begin with though with epic fantasy, there is the thing where they are the characters who're best situated to be able to tell a story, with actual agency & a view of "the bigger picture". It's still not a good look. In Mistborn, where the whole theme is a revolution, and we have lawful good Elend and chaotic neutral Kelsier. And some of the same discussions pop off here as well. This could've been handled better.

"anger as a corrupting force", I'll say. It's there in White Sand very directly with two characters. It's there in Mistborn with Kelsier, and then again in era 2 with Paalm. It's in Warbreaker too, with the Pahn Kahl. It's there in Elantris with Dreok Crushthroat. It was there very heavily in Aether of Night with the Twins. It's definitely there in Stormlight, Anger (Odium) literally as a Corrupting force.

I think there is room for righteous anger! And not just with the Dustbringers! But with that Voidbinding chart. I think there will be other Orders of Knights... something new, which will include Odium's anger & passion & hatred (given context!) Their Ideals will be of both Honor and Odium.

"It is significant that we see the good characters but then they put that anger aside because they realize that it's changing them and the one person who doesn't let go of their anger is getting corrupted into being a bad guy, that their anger led them in a bad direction. And I think that that's maybe a little bit inappropriate, especially when you look at class comparisons. We can compare Dalinar and Moash in some ways, but we can't compare everything because they're in different positions in society, and what their anger tells us is different. Moash's anger is different from Dalinar and we can't treat them as if it's the same evil force. The anger of the oppressed isn't evil." Reminds me of what Grey said on Discord about the right to anger. Well said.

Huh, that's a very good take. I always felt that Odium as the big bad against whom all your past grievances are meaningless, forget everything and fight! was kind of cliché but if Brandon goes with the theme of Odium being "god's divine fury separated from the virtues that gave it context" going hand-in-hand with all the angry people being the bad guys, regardless of the reason for said anger. If both are handled within under their shared, central theme, that'd be great! (Even without the Shard's Intent behind metaphysically connected with what they represent)

Going back to the Singer, man am I suddenly very happy that Rlain didn't become a Bondsmith and bring the Singers under the Kholins too. That would really turn the Stormlight Archive into Keeping Up With The Kholins. I'm really happy with Venli's arc leading her away from all this with the Listeners. Ooh, but if Brandon really does go with the Parshendi having justifiable anger and Moash's anger turning him into a monster, I'll be very sad. Also with Sja-Anat and Ba-Ado-Mishram, yeah. I suppose one could argue that we needed an example of anger being someone's downfall... oh, I don't like this.

Dalinar's pro-monarchical thoughts in this book kind of grated on me like the previous books' Shallan's boot theft & insensitive quips like "comparing women to peasants" and Adolin calling Kaladin "bridgeboy". Yeah, Hoid's meta commentary "I like that you are a good despot" was just *chef's kiss*. Also Jasnah in RoW, the woman and the myth, really well done. Man, I'd love a conversation between Kaladin & Jasnah, we haven't seen any interaction between them. None of the Kholins have acknowledged Kaladin's past as a slave all that well, Navani sort of did but not really all that much, Adolin cares for Kaladin but hasn't touched on that at all, Dalinar too, Renarin... more screentime plz, Jasnah is probably in the best person to address this as the queen and as someone who seems to understand.

Oh, good point with Jasnah & Adolin going outside of the established justice system and coming back unscathed. Yeah Moash definitely saw Elhokar the same way Adolin saw Sadeas and Kaladin saw Amaram. And Kaladin doesn't get to do the extrajudicial justice for oneself thing because it's wrong for him to do that despite what Amaram did to him, narratively that does frame things in a problematic way, implying that's because "Kaladin's the good Darkeyes who doesn't do the bad things" because "we have two stories of Darkeyes being angry at the system, and that's Kaladin & Moash"

Oh my! I don't think I recall anyone ever making this point! Moash didn't know, had no way to know that Elhokar was trying to change at all! He probably still wouldn't have been alright with it but would he have been even able to go through with killing him if he knew, we have no way to know! Do recall that we have seen Moash spare a totally useless waste-of-space lighteyes in his OB chapters.

Hmm, I'm actually satisfied with Amaram's ignoble end, not because of any comeuppance but because it felt like a fitting end for his character arc. He's... kind of wretched and pathetic. His end actions proving his need for self-validation rather than genuine desire to improve the world may not have been a satisfactory conclusion to the conflict between him & Kaladin but it was very fitting. We just don't spend a lot of time with him and only thorough re-examination kind of makes it all fit together. I do, however, have a problem with Taravangian's character arc being handled with what a lot of people feel is that very same mindset from his character, now that all the wow-factor has gone away from his unexpected apotheosis.

Oh my god, I was just thinking of it as the Parshendi were "mind-raped" and then I remembered that they were literally "bred" and I can't even... oooh boy, yeah the Singers would not be joining the humans, should not be joining the humans. Not after centuries of this. That the humans didn't know doesn't matter here, their absence in the human economic system, slavery, definitely does not matter here.

I think with the end of RoW, Moash's role of a foil, teaching Kaladin tough lessons: to let go, and that not everyone can be on the same side, could potentially be over. Going forwards, he could definitely be his own character.

I think Amaram was already a failed villain, I like the idea of Moash as a failed villain even less than Moash at least having some agency as a powerful villain.

Yeah, the time jump to the back 5 and book 5 possibly taking place within ten days dampened my enthusiasm for Renarin and Rlain. No build-up of relationship, here they're just getting to know each other, then bam, they've been married for years. Maybe the flashbacks could mitigate that. But then there's the whole, y'know, the only gay couple we'll see onscreen. The Vorin society is cool with homosexuality but we don't see the Vorin society being cool with homosexuality, we're just told that they are, and even that is a comment by the author outside of the books. Hopefully that changes going forwards. But right now, I don't see any of that, and that makes me afraid that every struggle that I've faced being gay is going to get ignored with Renarin & Rlain's story, and them being gay would just be flavour text, getting treated with the same amount of detail as liking apples over oranges, with no further significance.

Hey, I just won Who's that Cosmere Character in the first guess! It was an accident, yes, but I did get it right!

Edited June 16, 2021 by Honorless

JesterLavorre · May 9, 2021

4 hours ago, King Krooked said:

I just wanted to thank Grey for saying some things that definitely needed to be said about the anger of the oppressed being villainized, and how there really aren't many differences between "good lighteyes" and "bad lighteyes". She made a lot of valid points from very nuanced angles, and as a POC, I wanted her to know that her views were very appreciated.

Same! I was happily surprised by some of the really interesting discussion around this, which was something I had never really thought about before.

LuckyJim · May 10, 2021

I was not expecting such a nuanced take on the topic, even going so far as to assess the character on a meta level and the implications of his character arc on the way the narrative treats oppressed groups. I think Moash discourse has become a lot more polarized and one sided since RoW, which I kinda blame on Branding giving Moash a few too many "kick the dog" moments. Regardless, I have very complex feelings on the subject, and I found this episode to be very validating.

I'd really like to see Moash get some form of redemption, because there's a lot of value his perspective can bring to the story. I initially wanted him to become a Windrunner who protects the singers, but I've since become more fond of the idea of him becoming a Dustrbringer. Taking control of himself after spending his entire life being controlled by tyrants, and channeling his righteous anger into a more productive form.

Child of Hodor · May 10, 2021

I have a hard time seeing what Moash will do to redeem himself with most of book 5 set to take place in 10 days.

He could do a Darth Vader redemption where he saves one person's life and dies almost immediately. I don't see a really earned, worked for change happening in 10 days. Granted it will be a very busy 10 days that's described in hundreds of thousands of words.

What is his role going to be now that he is blind or will Odium fix that immediately? What was the point of blinding him then? Are we going to get a "Moash learns to live with his disability and has a change of heart along the way" arc over 10 days?

KandraAllomancer · May 10, 2021

I'm not sure what Brandon's plan for Moash exactly is, but I think he might be set up as a foil for El in book 5:

El was stripped of the Rhythms, Moash is now blind
El's title was given to Moash, and both are in the business of killing Cognitive Shadows
El is fascinated by humans and wants them to achieve their final Passions. Moash, on the other hand, has given up on humanity and doesn't want to feel anything

As for the unfortunate implications, they are there, but I feel Moash is just a symptom of a bigger issue here. We mostly see the events through the eyes of people bonded with spren, who have their own prejudices and seem to prefer bonding people already connected to other individuals with a Nahel bond. As a result, we have a weird system of magical segregation:

You want to unite people as a Bondsmith? Too bad, the position is Kholin-only for now
Darkeyed and want to join the fight? Please follow to the Windrunner recruitment center
You want to free people from oppression? Join Willshapers! Oh, one thing: Singers only
So you want to just help people without looking at the big politics? Do you prefer science or humanities? This will help us place you with either Truthwatchers or Edgedancers
You're an outsider in Urithiru? Apply for your own corrupted Mistspren (limited edition)! Extra points for neurodiversity and non-heterosexual sexual orientation
Fanatic and/or sociopathic maniac who would put even some Fused to shame? Don't you worry, Skybreakers and Dustbringers might still have some open positions

So yeah, the KRs are currently kind o broken and the PoVs we get are limited to some established, restricted categories. However, things look a whole lot more interesting if we consider the flashback characters for Arc 2:

Former street urchin with a traumatic past
Corrupted Truthwatcher in a gay relationship with a Singer
Atheist queen who tries to reform the social order
Darkeyed Herald who kept the world safe for millenia
Former Herald who will probably become a Dustbringer, an Order well familiar with righteous anger and the fact that you sometimes need to break something to create something new

Seriously, what other proof do we need to believe that these issues will be handled in the future?

Also, Dalinar being an honorable despot makes a lot of sense if he's going to Ascend to Honor – that way he would make a great contrast with both Taravangian's Odium and Sazed'd Harmony, all of whom will probably play important roles in Cosmere's future

Singer · May 10, 2021

I do want to point out that Dalinar did in fact ask the Nightwatcher if forgiveness was possible for what he'd done. He wanted the pain gone, but he did actually ask for forgiveness.

Someone · May 10, 2021

I hate Moash. He betrayed his friends/"family" and tried to manipulate and crush Kaladin.

Edited May 10, 2021 by Someone

Czernobog · May 11, 2021

I came into this episode expecting to dislike it, because I so viscerally hate Moash, yet I left feeling it was one of the most enjoyable discussions I can remember. I love Big Idea thematic sorts of conversations, and this delivered thanks to many nuanced points made by everyone, I think.

(As an aside: during the upcoming Cosmere lull, I'd be giddy if there were a "what is the point of the Cosmere" discussion. Yes, it's a framework to allow Brandon to tell lots of really cool stories, but what is the overarching Big Idea of the Cosmere that led to it becoming Brandon's life's work?)

As for what's behind Moash becoming blind, and what his future is, for a while now I've been having largely inchoate thoughts along these lines.

Despite his betrayals of Kaladin, I think Moash to a large extent almost worships Kaladin (the "he can't be killed" talk, for instance). If Dalinar fails in the contest of champions, and becomes a tool of Odium, I don't see how he could continue to hold any of Honor, and so someone else would likely then be able to take up Honor. If the son of Tanavast is that someone, then Moash's near worship of Kaladin might transmute into undying zeal to be in service of Kaladin-as-a-god. Kaladin/Honor could probably make effective use of a devoted blind prophet.

LuckyJim · May 11, 2021

12 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I have a hard time seeing what Moash will do to redeem himself with most of book 5 set to take place in 10 days.

He could do a Darth Vader redemption where he saves one person's life and dies almost immediately. I don't see a really earned, worked for change happening in 10 days. Granted it will be a very busy 10 days that's described in hundreds of thousands of words.

What is his role going to be now that he is blind or will Odium fix that immediately? What was the point of blinding him then? Are we going to get a "Moash learns to live with his disability and has a change of heart along the way" arc over 10 days?

I highly doubt that book 5 will only last 10 days, but aside from that, Moash doesn't need to go through a complete redemption in book 5. He only has to decide that he's wants to make the change. Depending on where Sanderson decides to take Moash's character, he could reach that point fairly soon. After RoW, he's beaten, broken and blind, he tried to reach his potential, but ended up hitting rock bottom instead. Throughout RoW, he tried to prove his view of the world correct over Kaladin, but Kaladin beat him, so the only conclusion Moash can take from this is that he was wrong, and now he has to figure out where to go from there.

I like the idea suggested in the Shardcast, that Moash will try to gain some redemption in death. It wouldn't be weird if he's become completely suicidal by book 5, believing that he's so useless that the only way to make things right is to die, and spend most of book 5 trying to find a way to make that happen. Ultimately though, it doesn't work, and he's forced to fully confront his flaws for the first time and actually put in the work to be better.

There's the issue of how much of his development would then take place over the timeskip, but there's also the possibility he could get a novella set in between books 5 and 6.

Someone · May 11, 2021

Honestly he will probably sacrifice himself to save Kaladin and redeem himself but die in the process.

Child of Hodor · May 11, 2021

19 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I'm not sure what Brandon's plan for Moash exactly is, but I think he might be set up as a foil for El in book 5:

El was stripped of the Rhythms, Moash is now blind

El's title was given to Moash, and both are in the business of killing Cognitive Shadows

El is fascinated by humans and wants them to achieve their final Passions. Moash, on the other hand, has given up on humanity and doesn't want to feel anything

These are great connections! Never thought about El interacting with Moash despite the name connection.

It's also interesting how at the end of book 2 Moash was off to join the Diagram and work for Taravangian. That got immediately derailed, but he ended up working for Taravangian eventually anyways.

I assume the switch came because Brandon moved Dalinar's book from 5 to 3 making Rayse lose Dalinar earlier than originally outlined and making the Taravangian switch necessary. Moash probably would have been the new Szeth for Taravangian in that alternate version of the story.

8 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

I highly doubt that book 5 will only last 10 days, but aside from that, Moash doesn't need to go through a complete redemption in book 5.

I agree with your larger point that Moash can realize he's wrong within book 5 and begin to seek to be better.

I'm not saying the whole book will take place in 10 days, but a majority of it will. The contest of champions begins at noon 10 days after RoW ended. Part of the agreement is that each side gets to keep whatever land they have control over at that point. It's going to be a mad scramble to capture and keep as much as possible.

Since that contest of champions has been mentioned since book 1 and is meant to settle the big Shard conflict of the front 5 I don't think it will happen before Part 4. Brandon likes to surprise, but having the contest in Part 2 would be a bit much.

I think Brandon is referring to that in the WoB below. Things they did in 4 that will make Karen's (his continuity editor) job a lot harder in book 5. She's the one that keeps track of timelines, when different peoples POV chapters take place in relation to each, what moon is out in night scenes, where the highstorm and everstorm are in relation to where and when the scene is taking place.

If most of the book takes place in 10 days (say through part 4) then that's a hundreds of thousands of words describing events that are happening all over Roshar at nearly the same time which makes it harder to keep it all straight.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

There are certain things that I do in Stormlight Four that I will not give as spoilers, but they're gonna make the writing of Stormlight Five particularly difficult.

Poor Karen. That's all gonna be stuff for Karen and me. It's gonna be headaches for us. Not as much for you [Isaac].
YouTube Livestream 21 (Oct. 29, 2020)

Gilphon · May 11, 2021

I just wanted say that the scenario they gamed out this episode- where Moash gets overwhelmed by guilt and tries to sacrifice himself, but Kaladin saves him anyway and then they toss him in jail- strikes me as an entirely plausible one.

Like I think that's a story that absolutely has room to happen within 10 days- the fact that his guilt is being supernaturally suppressed by a person who could choose to stop doing that at any time really helps to move the timeline forward.

And I don't know we'd even need to have him continue to be relevant in the back five after that. Like Kaladin's gonna be less important in the back five, so I'd expect a lot less Moash in the back five to.

And also think that it's entirely plausible that he's gonna look pitiful by the end of book five.

EdgyDancer · May 12, 2021

I think we all know what should happen to him.

*lights a match calmly

Someone · May 12, 2021

8 hours ago, Billybobjoe the second said:

I think we all know what should happen to him.

*lights a match calmly

yes

*smiles evilly

Stormrunner1730 · May 13, 2021

I really liked the episode and kind of wanted to be part of that discussion live haha. This was probably one of my favorite episodes you've done- because of the different perspectives/challenges to some of the unintentional consequences of Brandon's plotting. I particularly liked your discussion of how we (as readers) react to different characters (and different types of evil). Grey made some great points about righteous anger not really being a thing in Brandon's books. I hadn't really looked at anger in Stormlight from the perspective of "Kaladin gets superpower powers because he falls in line. Even though he was totally right to be pissed at Roshone, Amaram, etc." (I'm paraphrasing you guys, but I hope you understand what I mean haha).

I also totally agree that the Kaladin v. Amaram fight in OB wasn't nearly as satisfying as it could have been (which is honestly kind of okay since the rest of the book's climax is so incredible haha). I think it was Eric saying this, but I agree that it could have been a more personal confrontation and another milestone for Kaladin's character. It could have been a reckoning for Amaram's hypocrisy, but was instead Kaladin vs. an incomplete Unmade crystal monster haha. However, I think this goes to something you guys were talking about a few episodes ago- Brandon could probably write slightly "better" books, but then he probably wouldn't be able to write everything he wants to write (cosmere and not-cosmere-wise).

For the record, I'm team This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules Moash haha. I hope he doesn't get a redemption arc (I think it's likely that he'll end up in a place where we'll pity him, but not sympathize with him by the end of book 5- like you guys said). However, I think the conversation you had about who is "allowed" to be redeemed is important. Said redemption must also involve the character doing the work (ala Zuko or Endeavor from My Hero Academia- that one is more complicated though haha). If done correctly, a Moash redemption arc could possibly work, but I don't think the story has been setup for that.

Anyways, great episode and I'm looking forward to the next one!

Rainier · May 13, 2021

I'm just here to remind everyone...

Moash did nothing wrong.

NerdyAarakocra · May 18, 2022

On 5/13/2021 at 5:33 PM, Rainier said:

I'm just here to remind everyone...

Moash did nothing wrong.

I disagree.

Moash did a LOT of horrible things. Sure, he isn't as bad as Dalinar was in his backstory, but he certainly did some pretty horrid things. The reason that Dalinar is a protagonist and Vyre is the foil for Kaladin is mostly because he didn't try to seek redemption. Dalinar went to Cultivation to seek forgiveness, but when Moash became Vyre, he just wanted to erase his guilt. As far as a redemption arc goes, I think that he will probably remain a foil for Kaladin throughout most of Stormlight.

But to quote Renarin Kholin:
"I lived through my father's return, and it taught me that no one is too far gone that they cannot be redeemed."

So who knows? Regardless of his destination, he will probably get some more attention in the coming books.

Shardcast: Moash

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