Shardcast: Lost Metal Reading & Taln Didn't Break?? | JordanCon 2021 WoBs Part 1


Oh boy everyone, we have some spice for you today! At JordanCon we had both a reading from the Lost Metal (Wax and Wayne 4), which was its prologue, as well as one of the craziest Words of Brandon: Taln didn't break! Holy crap. Oh, and Marvin's meme game is on point this episode. 

This week we have Eric (Chaos), Ian (Weiry), Evgeni (Argent), Jessie (Lady Lameness), Marvin (Paleo), and Rosemary (Kaymyth).

Apologies for the late episode! The next one, which will be more WoBs, should be out Saturday, and we'll resume our once every two weeks schedule.

You can find the transcribed Lost Metal reading here: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472/#e14863

Here's an Arcanum collection of all the Words of Brandon: https://wob.coppermind.net/collections/875/

Amazing Navani and Raboniel cosplay by Galadriel and Callynah Coffeen (LittleGreyDragon and singmuse): https://twitter.com/CaylahCreations/status/1417135934613737476/photo/2

As always, you can skip to wherever you want using the chapters:

00:00 Introductions 
10:40 JordanCon Experiences
21:04 Lost Metal Reading
31:32 Do spren feel sexual or romantic attraction?
32:37 Here be aethers
36:25 Taln didn't break!
46:52 Were all spren wounded by Ba-Ado-Mishram's binding?
51:30 God metal names changing
59:14 Is the kandra Felt's wife?
1:00:07 Why is Scadrial Investiture hereditary?
1:06:38 Intent and Command for Scadrial
1:15:23 Knowing about new Odium
1:17:56 Yolen perpendicularity, no Shards there!
1:20:45 Kelsier and the Ghostbloods
1:27:36 Cognitive Shadows having children
1:27:56 Vasher vs. Odium in memory manipulation
1:29:25 Hemalurgic lerasium vs. atium vs. nicrosil
1:38:37 Storing Hemalurgic spikes in blood
1:42:11 Was Kelsier involved with Bloody Tan?
1:45:00 Ishar doing more than just Connecting spren to the Physical Realm
1:49:38 Shallan's last name
1:54:46 Who's That Cosmere Character 

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Child of Hodor

Posted (edited)

On Intent - Command, I think it is more a first principle of his approach to developing his magic system (although not one of his laws :) ). 

He doesn't want magic systems where people can accidently blow each other up without knowing they were even using magic They have to intend it.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3/#e77

Looking at it this way it's easy to make every cosmere magic system fit into Intent - Command. There is a thing you intend to do and there is the means by which you attempt to do it. 

Also, every magic system doesn't really have to mirror the Dawnshard - Shard relationship in my opinion. The Dawnshards shattered Adonalsium and likely influenced the shards we got, but Adonalsium predated the Dawnshards and the Dawnshards are separate from the Shards. Magic systems arising from the Shards investiture wouldn't inherently have Dawnshard-like features. 

 

Edited by Child of Hodor
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The obvious problem with the Chana theory is that the Stormfather's visions have shown our heroes accurate depictions of what the Heralds look like.  If Shallan had seen her mom there, she would have mentioned it!

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12 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

The obvious problem with the Chana theory is that the Stormfather's visions have shown our heroes accurate depictions of what the Heralds look like.  If Shallan had seen her mom there, she would have mentioned it!

I don't think Chana is ever directly mentioned as being seen in any of the visions, but even if she is, Chana in full battle regalia on the battlefield would look very different than as a rural, Vorin bright-lady. Even without any magical image manipulation going on. 

Plus Shallan's memory can never really be trusted. 

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55 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

I don't think Chana is ever directly mentioned as being seen in any of the visions, but even if she is, Chana in full battle regalia on the battlefield would look very different than as a rural, Vorin bright-lady.

Chanarach would be unlikely to look Veden, though.

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thejopen27

Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Chanarach would be unlikely to look Veden, though.

Why not? Jezrien passed as Alethi. Shalash and Taln pass as Makabaki. No one ever comments that Tezim doesn't look Tukari. Why couldn't Channa appear as Veden?

If Channa was hiding in Jah Kaved, she likely was there because she could pass as Veden. It's circular. We've never had either Shallan's mother's or Chana's face described on page so no one has had the oppurtunity to comment about their oddly shaped eyes or slightly shin features or whatever. The only thing we maybe know about Chana is that she has red hair., which is only from the Herald portraits that Brandon has said are generally accurate physical depictions.

I'm not saying Shallan's mother IS Chana, just that it can't be ruled out.

Edited by thejopen27
for Clarity
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thejopen27

Posted (edited)

Also, as a firm believer that Siah Aimians are Honor Spren that have been fully brought into the physical realm, and the Babatharnam and Natan people's have Siah Aimian blood... I think Honor Spren can and do have romantic relationships and can reproduce with humans if they have been fully brought into the physical realm. 

I'm not advocating for any future event or ship. I'm just stating what I think is true that has happened in the past based on the evidence I've seen.

Edited by thejopen27
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21 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

Why not? Jezrien passed as Alethi. Shalash and Taln pass as Makabaki. No one ever comments that Tezim doesn't look Tukari. Why couldn't Channa appear as Veden?

The Vedish and Horneater look alike enough that Shallan can play a Horneater princess. The Horneaters arose out of interbreeding of humans and Singers. That can have happened only after the arrival on Roshar. Chanarach predates it.

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teknopathetic

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Chanarach would be unlikely to look Veden, though.

Have you seen the depiction of Chanarach? 

See the source image

Edited by teknopathetic
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2 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

The obvious problem with the Chana theory is that the Stormfather's visions have shown our heroes accurate depictions of what the Heralds look like.  If Shallan had seen her mom there, she would have mentioned it!

2 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

I don't think Chana is ever directly mentioned as being seen in any of the visions, but even if she is, Chana in full battle regalia on the battlefield would look very different than as a rural, Vorin bright-lady. Even without any magical image manipulation going on. 

Plus Shallan's memory can never really be trusted. 

Jasnah has accurate depictions of the Heralds from Wit who drew them for her. That's how she spots Taln and Shallash at the end of OB.  I don't know if Shallan has seen all those drawings or not. 

Either way I'm not on board with Shallan's mom being a Herald. They both might have red hair, but it feels like an unnecessary twist to Shallan's already very complicated backstory.

Plus, I think a Herald could dodge a child's blade if they are paying attention and want to. Taln grabbed two darts out of the air despite his stupor, Nale and Ishar displayed great ability to dodge and outmanuever adults in RoW. Jezrien just sat there drunk. Maybe a child could summon a blade and catch a Herald by surprise, but I dunno. 

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teknopathetic

Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Jasnah has accurate depictions of the Heralds from Wit who drew them for her. That's how she spots Taln and Shallash at the end of OB.  I don't know if Shallan has seen all those drawings or not. 

Either way I'm not on board with Shallan's mom being a Herald. They both might have red hair, but it feels like an unnecessary twist to Shallan's already very complicated backstory.

Plus, I think a Herald could dodge a child's blade if they are paying attention and want to. Taln grabbed two darts out of the air despite his stupor, Nale and Ishar displayed great ability to dodge and outmanuever adults in RoW. Jezrien just sat there drunk. Maybe a child could summon a blade and catch a Herald by surprise, but I dunno. 

Shallan's entire arc has been about finding out there is always another layer to her trauma.

1. Shallan's father killed Shallan's mother.
2. Shallan killed her father when his insanity went too far. 
3. Shallan actually killed her mother in self defense and her father took the heat and went insane.
4. Shallan then went and killed her spren in a moment of grief and despair. 
5. ?

MY 5:
5. Shallan killed a herald, a god, and started a desolation indirectly. 
"The world ended, and Shallan was to blame - Words of Radiance, Chapter 10. 
The line is said at the beginning of a chapter with no explanation or context

We have one book left, and we have one remaining gap in her memory - and this memory seems to be about a Seon and the connections her mother had to secret societies. To me it seems quite obvious this last secret is about Shallan's mother, but what that secret exactly is is up in the air for sure.

If Shallan is repressing that she killed a herald, then she likely wouldn't allow herself to remember what she did or make the connection. Cue Radiant, who is basically a stand in for the heralld Chanarach.  As for killing a herald, Shallan managed to snipe her mother close-range with an unexpected shard-dagger. Mrs. Davar knew Shallan was "one of them", but I doubt Mrs. Davar thought a small child had progressed to the third ideal. As for the killing blow, heralds are strong, but Shallan's mother was not exactly in a clear and composed mental state at the time of her demise. It would be near impossible for Mrs.Davar to dodge a shardblade summoned 3 inches from her own chest as Mrs.Davar is charging towards Shallan at full inertia. 

Side Note: I like the idea that many heralds bought Ishar's idea that the return of radiants could bring about a desolation, but it was actually the hunting of radiants that brought about the desolation. Maybe Ishar had some future sight, and this then became a greek-style tragedy about prophecy. 

 

Edited by teknopathetic
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2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Jasnah has accurate depictions of the Heralds from Wit who drew them for her. That's how she spots Taln and Shallash at the end of OB.  I don't know if Shallan has seen all those drawings or not. 

Either way I'm not on board with Shallan's mom being a Herald. They both might have red hair, but it feels like an unnecessary twist to Shallan's already very complicated backstory.

Plus, I think a Herald could dodge a child's blade if they are paying attention and want to. Taln grabbed two darts out of the air despite his stupor, Nale and Ishar displayed great ability to dodge and outmanuever adults in RoW. Jezrien just sat there drunk. Maybe a child could summon a blade and catch a Herald by surprise, but I dunno. 

"An unnecessary twist to Shallan's already very complicated backstory"

Her whole story is twists that further complicate her story. 

Also, a mother grieving over having to kill her daughter because she thinks she's about to end the world is not in the best head-space to dodge an instantly forming death-blade that they probably don't think the child has. Most adult's could dodge/block any attack from a child, but not if you don't know it's coming and it's a shard blade. 

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4 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Shallan's entire arc has been about finding out there is always another layer to her trauma.

1. Shallan's father killed Shallan's mother.
2. Shallan killed her father when his insanity went too far. 
3. Shallan actually killed her mother in self defense and her father took the heat and went insane.
4. Shallan then went and killed her spren in a moment of grief and despair. 
5. ?

MY 5:
5. Shallan killed a herald, a god, and started a desolation indirectly. 
"The world ended, and Shallan was to blame - Words of Radiance, Chapter 10. 
The line is said at the beginning of a chapter with no explanation or context

We have one book left, and we have one remaining gap in her memory - and this memory seems to be about a Seon and the connections her mother had to secret societies. To me it seems quite obvious this last secret is about Shallan's mother, but what that secret exactly is is up in the air for sure.

If Shallan is repressing that she killed a herald, then she likely wouldn't allow herself to remember what she did or make the connection. Cue Radiant, who is basically a stand in for the heralld Chanarach.  As for killing a herald, Shallan managed to snipe her mother close-range with an unexpected shard-dagger. Mrs. Davar knew Shallan was "one of them", but I doubt Mrs. Davar thought a small child had progressed to the third ideal. As for the killing blow, heralds are strong, but Shallan's mother was not exactly in a clear and composed mental state at the time of her demise. It would be near impossible for Mrs.Davar to dodge a shardblade summoned 3 inches from her own chest as Mrs.Davar is charging towards Shallan at full inertia. 

Side Note: I like the idea that many heralds bought Ishar's idea that the return of radiants could bring about a desolation, but it was actually the hunting of radiants that brought about the desolation. Maybe Ishar had some future sight, and this then became a greek-style tragedy about prophecy. 

 

It just seems really excessive to me for the entire end of the world to basically be Shallan's fault.At the end of RoW, Shallan's narrations says there are no more holes in her memory, and yes she's not exactly a reliable narrator, but I would hope that after four books of this we can finally start moving forward. Making her arc about uncovering repressed guilt over some murder yet again is just repetitive, and regresses Shallan's character after the progress she finally made in RoW.

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15 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Jasnah has accurate depictions of the Heralds from Wit who drew them for her. That's how she spots Taln and Shallash at the end of OB.  I don't know if Shallan has seen all those drawings or not.

Jasnah has certainly seen them. As have Navani and Dalinar. Do you really think they'd marry their cousin respectively son to a foreign woman without checking her pedigree which would involve looking at a drawing of her mother? Or fail to notice that nobody knows her maternal grandparents?

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The problem I have with the ‘Shallan killed her secretly-a-Herald mother and triggered the end of the world’ theory is that it undermines Venli’s arc.

Venli’s whole story is her dealing with the fact that she accidentally made the Return happen. And it is actually her fault, since she was old enough and smart enough to know better, which I find more interesting than Shallan lashing out in a moment of panic as a small child.

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1 hour ago, RedBlue said:

The problem I have with the ‘Shallan killed her secretly-a-Herald mother and triggered the end of the world’ theory is that it undermines Venli’s arc.

Venli’s whole story is her dealing with the fact that she accidentally made the Return happen. And it is actually her fault, since she was old enough and smart enough to know better, which I find more interesting than Shallan lashing out in a moment of panic as a small child.

I agree it subtracts more than it adds. Just because her story has twists doesn't mean THIS has to be the final twist. There's a lot of "her story is complicated so my theory is correct" going on. 

The mom's friend was a Skybreaker and that person influenced her decision to kill Shallan. If the Skybreakers knew about Shallan then Nale knows. Wouldn't Nale come talk to Chana himself and not send a lackey? Wouldn't Nale be aware of his Herald friend and know she's dead? The Heralds promised not to seek each other out, but they break that all the time. 

Also, if a Herald broke wouldn't the Fused start showing up like they would in a normal desolation? They could take over some Listeners and have the Listeners summon the Everstorm. It seems like a big risk to leave it all up to Ulim to pull off if there were other options. 

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teknopathetic

Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I agree it subtracts more than it adds. Just because her story has twists doesn't mean THIS has to be the final twist. There's a lot of "her story is complicated so my theory is correct" going on. 

Also, if a Herald broke wouldn't the Fused start showing up like they would in a normal desolation? They could take over some Listeners and have the Listeners summon the Everstorm. It seems like a big risk to leave it all up to Ulim to pull off if there were other options. 

Venli is not responsible for the breaking of the Oathpact and/or Taln returning to Roshar as all of that happened before the Everstom was summoned. Whatever happened with Taln is something completely different. Venli is culpable for the genocide of her people and the summoning of the Everstorm. This desolation was a double-wammy, and there are mistakes made by many people across the board, but Venli's guilt should not be about the return of a desolation.

And as for the theory, I want to say that that Chana theory is just that Shallan killed Chana and that Shallan believes that she ended the world. Shallan needs to deal with the fact that she is in fact NOT to blame for anything that she did and that she is not to blame for the things her abusive and mentally-ill parents forced her to do. Personally, I feel that adding in this twist makes Shallan's total shut-down, mental break, and weird religiosity make a lot more sense to me. It isn't that Shallan killed Chana that is important to me, but that horrfying psychological trauma of a God, who is also you mother, telling you that you are too evil to live. And then, knowing that your abusive father is the only one who stepped in to save you, which resulted in you killing your mother, killing a god, and starting an apocalypse. Shallan has actual, spiritually-authoritative reasons for believing that she is a worthless wretch who literally does not deserve to be alive. Ouch...

 

As for what happens after Chana dies, it is completely up in the air:

1. What was that glowing light that Lin put in the safe? Did Shallan hallucinate (not her typical mental illness), or was a light left behind when the herald died? Light is sort of the motif of The Stormlight Archieve, so I am not willing to throw away a magical glowing light as a meer hallucination. Did Shallan have a connection to that light and therefor could see it? Was that actually Chana's soul as Shallan believes, because we know for a fact that Shallan went to meet her spren after and Shallan damn-well knows the spren and her blade were not trapped in the safe. And was the safe just a regular safe? What did Lin know about Chana? Did Chana have any contingencies to not return to Braize? How did Chana's connections plan in to any of this? 

2. If/when Chana did go to Briaze, was Odium aware she had returned? Did Chana manage to play the hide and seek game? How many years did it take her to be caught? 

3. When she was caught, what happened? She is over the whole thing, so could she make some kind of deal with Odium? Could she have changed sides? Was she tortured? Did she break? Maybe she bowed the knee to Odium and she broke when Odium commanded she break (to help the Everstorm)? Maybe she tried to hold out and it took a few years? Where is she now?

4. What was Gavilar doing? Some people think his "I will become a god" and "Tell Thaidakar he is too late" means he went to Braize or that he was trying to become a herald or a fused. I have heard the theory that Gavilar took the place of a Herald. Maybe Gavilar switched with Chana and Chana went to the beyond? Who knows how this Gavilar plot-gun will play out. 

5. If Chana is around, then what will Shallan's meeting with her be like? I would LOVE to see that. 

 

Edited by teknopathetic
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If I found myself in possession of a nicrosil spike and with a pressing need to steal some Investiture, and I also found three potential donors in front of me, each a median-of-normal-distribution sample of human, dragon, and Sho Del species, would my selection of species yield any meaningful differences in the harvested Investiture? 

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Elegy

Posted (edited)

Not sure if this directly disproves anything, but we have confirmation that Shallan's red hair is because of her Horneater heritage:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

[...]

These changes, of course, had a domino effect that resulted in the Veden people gaining their occasional red hair and fair skin from Horneater relation, which means Shallan is part parshman--though the relation is distant at this point.

General Reddit 2015 (Nov. 15, 2015)

If Shallan's mother is the one who she inherited the hair color from, her mother got Horneater heritage, which means that she can't be Chana, since she's from Ashyn.

Edited by Elegy
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teknopathetic

Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Elegy said:

Not sure if this directly disproves anything, but we have confirmation that Shallan's red hair is because of her Horneater heritage:

If Shallan's mother is the one who she inherited the hair color from, her mother got Horneater heritage, which means that she can't be Chana, since she's from Ashyn.

This could mean she is part Horneater on her father’s side, and got some Ashyn red and some recessive/co-phenomic Horneater red. SInce we do have at least one red-haired Ashynite in Chana, we can assume it must have been in the genepool somewhere. However, I do see your point though. Thank you for posting that. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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What if Taln "CHOSE"?

I take a different approach to "Taln didn't break"

We know the cycle of desolations was not particularly good for humans or singers in the end. While Taln's sacrifice was great for society, it did not heal the wounds of Roshar, mearly acted as a potent band aid for the problems.  The parhmen were slaves for thousands of years.

What if he did not break, but CHOSE to let the fused return. Maybe he gained new insight or knowledge that made him realize the only way to fix the world was to resolve its problems.

I prefer this theory because it does not cheapen the end of Taln's time in Braize.

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What if Taln didn’t break but switched sides? All that time for not just the fused to torture him but Odium to whisper in his ear? 

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19 hours ago, Charlomack said:

What if Taln didn’t break but switched sides? All that time for not just the fused to torture him but Odium to whisper in his ear? 

This would make me very sad.  I really like Taln. Though it would make for an interesting plot twist considering he is a flashback character in the back half.  I do feel like everything he has said and done since his return seams sincere if not a little insane.

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