+mdross81 Posted November 9, 2021 Report Share Posted November 9, 2021 While working on a previous post about the unseen winds that are referenced from time to time in the SA, my attention was also drawn to the extensive symbolic use of the sun. But I noticed that the sun symbolism didn't necessarily seem consistent. At various times, the sun seemed to be characterized or experienced differently by different characters. Sometimes, the same character is compared to, or experiences, the sun differently at different times. The most obvious example I can think of is Odium, who is sometimes associated with darkness, blocking out the sun, or with the idea of the sun setting, but at other times is actually likened to the sun, with descriptions of intense heat and brightness. (a thorough list of examples is included toward the bottom of the post) My initial take on this seeming inconsistency was that maybe Brandon's symbolic use of the sun/sunlight was just all over the place. But as I dug a little deeper, I hit upon a different, more subtle possible explanation; one that ties in with some of the other themes that crop up over and over. Specifically, I'm thinking here about the power of perception, the exercise of free choice, and the (in)ability to exert control over one's emotions. What I've found is that the ways that characters perceive/experience the sun changes depending on their behaviors, their emotions, and their environment. And I think this idea - that two different people (or a single person at different times) can see the same sun in different ways - also ties in with the idea that the conflict between Honor's and Odium's forces is in part a battle for the hearts of men. A struggle to see which side will have more hearts open to it. Wit even tells us this in RoW 99: Quote "But look, Jasnah, Rayse - Odium - is someone we can defeat. If he has one great failing it's that he thinks he's smarter than he is. He tried exceptionally hard to make Dalinar into his champion. Why? Because he doesn't merely want to win, he wants to win in a way that says something. To everyone watching. "He was so certain he could turn the Blackthorn that he bet almost everything on that singular gamble. Now he must be scared. While he pretends he has a dozen other plans, he's scrambling to locate a champion who can legitimately win. Because he knows - same as I'm telling you - that the contest won't only be about who can stab the hardest with their spear." "What will is be about then?" "Same thing it's always about, Jasnah," Wit said. "The hearts of men and women. Do you trust the hearts of those who fight on your side?" But, I'm getting ahead of myself. Let me start with the excerpt that I think cuts to the heart (har har) of this matter, which is essentially that Odium can, at least for periods of time, possess humans if they open themselves up to it. And I don't just mean cause them to experience the Thril or the gluttony inspired by Ashertmarn. This is from OB 115, the scene where Odium takes control of Amaram's army: Quote “Passion,” Odium said. “There is great Passion here.” Venli felt cold. “I’ve prepared these men for decades,” Odium said. “Men who want nothing so much as something to break, to gain vengeance against the one who killed their highprince. Let the singers watch and learn. I’ve prepared a different army to fight for us today.” Ahead of them on the battlefield, the human ranks slumped, their banner wavering. A man in glittering Shardplate, sitting upon a white horse, led them. Deep within his helm, something started glowing red. The dark spren flew toward the men, finding welcoming bodies and willing flesh. The red mist made them lust, made their minds open. And the spren, then, bonded to the men, slipping into those open souls. “Master, you have learned to inhabit humans?” Turash said to Subservience. “Spren have always been able to bond with them, Turash,” Odium said. “It merely requires the right mindset and the right environment.” Ten thousand Alethi in green uniforms gripped their weapons, their eyes glowing a deep, dangerous red. A couple of things to point out here. First, I don't know if others have caught this, but upon doing a close read of this sequence I realized that I had, for quite some time, mistakenly believed that it was the Thrill that bonded to the soldiers in Amaram's army. It's not. The Thrill is just there to get them in the right mindset. Those are Fused souls that possess Amaram's men. Explanation is below and spoilered for length. Spoiler To figure this out I read carefully through Venli PoVs from OB 115 and 116. First, here's where the Fused souls arrive in the Physical Realm in OB 115: Quote She suddenly felt something odd. Like a rhythm, but oppressive, demanding. It shook the very air, and the ground beneath her feet trembled. Lightning in the clouds behind seemed to flash to this rhythm, and in a moment she saw that the area around her was filled with ghostly spren. Those are the spirits of the dead, she realized. Fused who haven’t yet chosen a body. Most were twisted to the point that she barely recognized them as singers. Then, there's the passage I already included above where: "The dark spren flew toward the men, finding welcoming bodies and willing flesh. The red mist made them lust, made their minds open. And the spren, then, bonded to the men, slipping into those open souls." I think the reason I thought the Thrill had bonded them is because the plural of spren is just "spren." And I guess I just read "the dark spren" to mean the Thrill. But there's a couple of other lines later in OB 116, that make it clear that it was the Fused souls who had showed up around Venli earlier that possessed the soldiers. First: Quote The air around Venli – once crowded by the spirits of the dead – was now empty save for the single black figure of swirling smoke. She’d missed that one at first, as it was the size of a normal person. It stood near Odium, and she did not know what it represented. Then, a bit later when Venli goes with Odium to be a translator: Quote She swallowed, then started hiking toward the city. The dark spirit followed, the one of swirling mists, the last who had yet to inhabit a body. So ... yeah. Fused can possess humans, but for some reason it doesn't kick out their souls/identity like it does when they take over a singer body. Here's when they snap out of it from OB 120 (Shallan's POV): Quote The armies started charging the wall. No pause, no breather. Odium would keep pushing forces at this wall as long as it took to crack Thaylen City. Bloodlusty men, controlled by ... The lights in their eyes started to go out. That clouded sky made it unmistakable. All across the field, red faded from the eyes of Amaram's soldiers. Many immediately fell to their knees, retching on the ground. Others stumbled, holding themselves upright by sagging against spears. It was like the very life had been sucked out of them - and it was so abrupt and unexpected that Shallan had to blink several times before her mind admitted that - yes - this was happening. Not sure how the mechanics of this work at all. I can't remember whether we ever see any of those soldiers either later in OB or in RoW. Would be interesting to see if there was any kind of lasting effect. Second, and more interesting is the highlighted line, where Odium talks about the two requirements for him to take control of a human: the right mindset and the right environment. As I went through the various times when characters describe/experience the sun, it became clear that whether they saw it positively or negatively was based on their mindset and their environment at the time, essentially showing us when characters were most at risk of falling victim to Odium's influence. There are actually a couple of other places where this idea - of humans opening themselves up to Odium's influence - comes up. One is waayyyy back in WoK Chapter 45. Shallan is trying to figure out what the Voidbringers were, and gets answers from three different sources: Jasnah: Jasnah studied her with a curious expression. “Nobody knows for sure. Most scholars consider them, like Urithiru, mere myths, while theologians accept them as counterparts of the Almighty – monsters that dwelled in the hearts of men, much as the Almighty once lived there.” The folk tales that Jasnah had compiled: It seemed that everybody knew something about the Voidbringers. People in rural areas spoke of them as mysterious creatures that came out at night, stealing from the unlucky and punishing the foolish. Those Voidbringers seemed more mischievous than evil. But then there would be the odd story about a Voidbringer taking on the form of a wayward traveler who – after receiving kindness from a tallew farmer – would slaughter the entire family, drink their blood, then write voidish symbols across the walls in black ash. Most people in the cities, however, saw the Voidbringers as spirits who stalked at night, a kind of evil spren that invaded the hearts of men and made them do terrible things. When a good man grew angry, it was the work of a Voidbringer. And lastly, Kabsal: “Everything has its opposite, Shallan. The Almighty is a force for good. To balance his goodness, the cosmere needed the Voidbringers as his opposite.” “I don’t think you want to get into the deep theology of this. Suffice it to say that the Almighty’s pure goodness created the Voidbringers, but men may choose good without creating evil because as mortals they have a dual nature. Thus the only way for good to increase in the cosmere is for men to create it – in that way, good may come to outweigh evil.” One of the things we slowly realize over the first three books of the series is just how wrong most of the present-day Rosharan beliefs are about the Voidbringers, the Desolations, the Heralds, and the Knights Radiant. But I think Brandon may have pulled a fast one on us here and hidden something that is actually true - that humans really can be possessed by Team Odium if they open themselves up to it - in plain sight in a way where we're inclined to think it's ridiculous. Want another example? How about Jezrien (Ahu) talking to Dalinar in OB 88 about which one of the Unmade might have gotten to him: Quote "Which one got to you, little child?" Ahu asked. "The Black Fisher? The Spawning Mother, the Facelss? Moelach is close. I can hear his wheezing, his scratching, his scraping at time like a rat breaking through walls." "I have no idea what you're talking about." "Madness," Ahu said, then giggled. "I used to think it wasn't my fault. But you know, we can't escape what we did? We let them in. We attracted them, befriended them, took them out to dance and courted them. It is our fault. You open yourself up to it, and you pay the price. They ripped my brain out and made it dance! I watched." It's fairly clear that Odium's long game involved trying to subtly influence humanity and exploit what Kabsal calls their "dual nature," trying to push them in subtle ways (often though the Unmade) to make dishonorable choices. We're told as much in the blurbs authored by the Sleepless on that back covers of the books. From WoK: Quote The world became ours, and we lost it. Nothing, it appears, is more challenging to the souls of men than victory itself. Or was that victory an illusion all along? Did our enemies realize that the harder they fought, the stronger we resisted? Perhaps they saw that the heat and the hammer only make for a better grade of sword. But ignore the steel long enough, and it will eventually rust away. And then WoR back-cover blurb notes the dangerous duality experienced by Radiants: Quote The ancient oaths have at last been spoken; the spren return. Men seek that which was lost. I fear the struggle will destroy them. It is the nature of the magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit. Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves. They can brace a broken soul; but they can also widen its fissures. Dual Nature Here are some other textual references to dual natures - seeing the same thing in different ways depending on how you're approaching it. Tien in WoK 37: Quote “Mother, look at this,” Tien said. Late-afternoon sunlight streamed through the leeside window, bathing the table. “From this side, the rock sparkles red, but from the other side, it’s green.” Perhaps it’s magical,” Hesina said. Bringing things back around the to sun references, here's Shallan in WoR 48, engaging in word play with her brothers: Quote “Love is like the sun,” Balat said, sighing. “Blinding?” Shallan asked. “White, warm, powerful – but also capable of burning you?” Let's stay with Shallan for another weather-related reference, this time from RoW 26: Quote High overhead, clouds had formed – the familiar ones of this place that pointed toward the distant sun like a roadway. These clouds didn’t seem to move according to ordinary weather patterns, but appeared and disappeared as the barge moved. Was it something to do with the angle at which they were being seen? Here's young-Nohadon from the vision in WoK 60: Quote “Our own nature destroys us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than an ordinary man.” And then let's jump to old-Nohadon and bring the sun back into it, from OB 103: Quote Dalinar started awake in an unfamiliar place, lying on a floor of cut stone, his back stiff. He blinked sleepily, trying to orient himself. Storms … where was he? Soft sunlight shone through an open balcony on the far side of the room, and ethereal motes of dust danced in the streams of light. What were those sounds? They seemed like the voices of people, but muffled. ... Yes, he remembered this place well. This was the vision where he’d met Nohadon, author of The Way of Kings. Why wasn’t it playing out as it had before? He and Nohadon had walked to the balcony, talked for a time, then the vision had ended. Dalinar started toward the balcony, but storms, that light was so intense. It washed over him, making his eyes water, and he had to raise his hand to shield his eyes. He heard something behind him. Scratching? He turned – putting his back to the brilliance – and spotted a door on the wall. It swung open easily beneath his touch, and he stepped out of the loud sunlight to find himself in a circular room. He shut the door with a click. This chamber was much smaller than the previous one, with a wooden floor. Windows in the walls looked out at a clear sky. A shadow passed over one of these, like something enormous moving in front of the sun. But … how could the sun be pointed this direction too? Dalinar looked over his shoulder at the wood door. No light peeked underneath it. He frowned and reached for the handle, then paused, hearing the scratching once more. Turning, he saw a large desk, heaped with papers, by the wall. How had he missed that earlier? … Nohadon led Dalinar back through the door. The light was gone. I'm with you Dalinar. How, indeed, could the sun be pointing in those two different directions? Maybe because adopting a different mindset or being placed in a different environment literally changes not only the way you see the sun but also which Shard you're open to. I ... don't really know if this theory came together the way I thought it might. But I feel like there's something here. I'm interested as always to hear others thoughts. Textual Evidence If you're interested in a rundown of the changing characterizations of the sun, here's my list, broken down by character and the nature of the sun symbolism. I'm going to spoiler these for space. If you read nothing else, I recommend you read through the section discussing times when Odium is associated with the sun and referred to as the "god of gods." It seems to me like juicy stuff that may feature prominently when we get to Shinovar in book 5. Dalinar With Dalinar, the ratio tilts toward negative associations with the sun, which makes sense given all the years he spent beholden to the Thrill. Dalinar: sun = bad (there's a pretty consistent theme here tying a setting sun to Odium, the Thrill, and Desolations) Spoiler OB 26 - feeling the Thrill as the sun approaches the horizon: Dalinar breathed out, then sank down, wrung out. Shadows stretched long across the land as the sun met the horizon. It had been a fine fight. He’d accomplished what he’d wanted. He’d conquered all who stood before him. And yet he felt empty. A voice within him kept saying, “That’s it? Weren’t we promised more?” OB 75 - another sun-on-the-horizon coupled with the Thrill, this is just after he kills all of Tanalan's men: The sun was low on the horizon, plunging the canyon into shadows. WoK 26 - preparing for battle, the Thrill rising in him: The brilliant white sun stained his eyelids red. WoK 60 - During the first Nohadon vision, Dalinar walks out onto the balcony to see the effects of aDesolation: It looked out upon an evening sky; the setting sun stained the air a dirty, sultry red. WoK 75 - Tanavast's message in the Top Room vision: “Unite them. The sun approaches the horizon. The Everstorm comes. The True Desolation. The Night of Sorrows. You must prepare. Build of your people a fortress of strength and peace, a wall to resist the winds. Cease squabbling and unite.” WoR 8 - sensing the futility while heading on a plateau run: Over the years, this activity had become rote. Marching beneath that white sun like molten steel. OB 100 - running from the ardent who's charging him with heresies: The Thrill stirred, sensing a fight. Sensing blood. I’m going to kill him, a part of Dalinar thought. I have to run now, or I will kill this man. It was as clear to him as the sun’s light. OB 117 - Odium describing why he wants Dalinar as his champion: “I need someone who dominates the battlefield like the sun dominates the sky.” RoW 112 - Dalinar pulled into a vision by Rayse to discuss terms: The ground shimmered as if infused with Stormlight. Dalinar pulled to a halt and turned around. The doorway was gone, the doorknob having vanished from his hand. The sky was a deep reddish orange, like a sunset. Dalinar: sun = good Spoiler OB 12 - looking out an upper floor window in Urithiru: Light poured in through the windows, pure and bright. It flowed down, bathing him. He breathed in, almost feeling as if he could taste the sunlight. RoW 66 - feeling bad about keep Taravangian from the sun: So they’d blocked off the windows on a sturdy home, reinforced the door, and set guards from among Dalinar’s best soldiers. As Dalinar approached, he noted how the upper-floor windows were now filled with stark crem bricks, mortared into place. It had felt wrong to give Taravangian a home instead of a cell – but seeing those windows, it also felt wrong to leave him without sunlight. RoW 112 - associating a sudden understanding with rising sun: And yet you come to me, Dalinar thought. To berate me? You stayed away all these months. Why now? The answer truck him like the light of a rising sun. Odium had lost the tower – Urithiru was safe and there was another Bondsmith. He’d failed again. And now he thought Dalinar had been working with Ishar. Kaladin With Kaldin, who is so closely aligned with Honor, the sun is pretty much always viewed favorably as something that Kal needs and misses when he doesn't get enough. Kal: sun = good Spoiler WoK 44 - why he doesn't like the Weeping: Kaladin longed for the sun and the wind. He actually missed the highstorms, with their rage and vitality. These days were dreary, and he found it difficult to get anything productive done. As if the lack of storms left him without strength. WoK 44 - Tien tells Kal that things aren't as bad as they seem: So many objections rose in his mind, but Tien’s smile banished them. There in the midst of the dreariest part of the year, Kaladin felt for a moment as if he had glimpsed sunshine. He could swear he felt things grow brighter around them, the storms retreating a shade, the sky lightening. WoK 67 - battle of the Tower “It was like a fountain of light,” Moash said, kneeling beside Kaladin. “Like the sun itself burst from you, Kaladin.” Kaladin breathed in. Like the power of salvation itself – like rays of sunlight from the eyes of the Almighty – Stormlight exploded from those gemstones. WoR 41 - Syl trying to push Kaladin to use his powers: “Come on!” she called to him. “Out onto the plateau! Into the sunlight!” WoR 84 - third Oath: Then Kaladin exploded with Light. It erupted from his body, making him shine like a blazing white sun in the darkness. Moash backed away, face pale in the white brilliance, throwing up a hand to shade his eyes. OB 69 - in Kholinar (this one is heartbreaking knowing how the Kholinar arc ends): The truth was, he was feeling pretty good these days. … That wasn’t so uncommon a feeling to him. He felt good lots of days. Trouble was, on the bad days, that was hard to remember. At those times for some reason, he felt like he had always been in darkness, and always would be. Why was it so hard to remember? Did he have to keep slipping back down? Why couldn’t he stay up here in the sunlight, where everyone else lived? OB 120 - after coming through Dalinar’s perpendicularity: Storms, Kaladin felt good to be in the real world again. Even with the Everstorm dominating the sun, this place felt so much more bright than Shadesmar. RoW 9 - F Moash: Why couldn’t he simply shrug off what Moash had said? Why couldn’t he stand up tall? Stride toward the sun like the hero everyone pretended he was? RoW 10 - after leaving Hearthstone: Kaladin was feeling quite a bit better as they neared the Shattered Plains. A few hours’ flying through open sky and sunlight always left him feeling refreshed. Right now, the man who had crumpled before Moash in that burning building seemed an entirely different person. RoW 18 - looking out at the sunlight hitting the snow in the mountains around Urithiru; comparing sunlight and Stormlight: He turned and continued down the hallway. A steady light ahead told him they were approaching the outer wall. Molten sunlight, open and inviting. The cold Stormlight sphere in his hand represented power, but a secretive, angry sort. Inspect gem light, and you could see it shifting, storming, trying to break free. Sunlight represented something more free, more open. RoW 25 - visiting Noril: The man grunted, continuing to lie on the floor, facing the wall. Storms. I know that feeling, Kaladin thought. I’ve been there. He looked around the silent chamber cut off from the sunlight and wind. This was so, so wrong. RoW 33 - helping the soldiers with battle shock: For the men chatting together softly, the change was in being shown sunlight again. In being reminded that the darkness did pass. But perhaps most important, the change was in not merely knowing that you weren’t alone – but in feeling it. Realizing that no matter how isolated you thought you were, no matter how often your brain told you terrible things, there were others who understood. RoW 49 - exploring unoccupied floors of Urithiru: They had to move inward and find a small out-of-the-way stairwell that Syl remembered. Reaching it meant entering the darkness again. To Kaladin, sunlight was as vital as food or water. Leaving it was agony, but he did it. RoW 80 - Hoid being a bro: “It will,” Wit said, “but then it will get better. Then it will get worse again. Then better. This is life, and I will not lie by saying every day will be sunshine. But there will be sunshine again, and that is a very different thing to say. That is truth. I promise you, Kaladin: You will be warm again.” RoW 109 - Venli describing light that is either from Kal swearing the Fourth Ideal while falling or from Venli telling Leshwi about bonding Timbre:Leshwi fell to her knees before Venli, not flying, not hovering. On her knees. Venli knelt as well, as Leshwi still held to her face – but the grip softened. A cool, beautiful light flooded in through the window behind. Like a frozen lightning bolt, brighter than any sphere. Bright as the sun. RoW 111 - after swearing fourth oath and gaining his Plate (Adin POV): The Plate had fit everyone, but him it matched. A brilliant, Knight Radiant in glowing armor, holding aloft an intricate Shardspear. He left the helmet off so they could all see. Kaladin Stormblessed, bright as the sun. Kal: sun = bad (not too many of these, but they demonstrate the connection between mindset and characterization of the sun nicely) Spoiler WoK 41 - after Kal and Lirin save Roshone but fail to save Rillir: On the horizon, the sun was red as blood. Everywhere Kaladin looked, the world was red. … Why was it most colorful when it was about to vanish for the night? Was it angry at being forced below the horizon? Or was it a showman, giving a performance before retiring? (an angry showman? sure sounds like Rayse to me) WoK 17 - after telling Syl that the one thing you can count on with men is their greed: It was a bitter thought. But it had been a bitter day. A hopeful bright beginning, and a bloody, red sunset. Just like every day. WoK 43 - After being put on permanent bridge duty: Kaladin stood at the edge of the chasm, looking down. The hot light of the noon sun burned the back of his neck and cast his shadow downward into the rift, to join with those below. I could fly, he thought. Step off and fall, wind blowing against me. Fly for a few moments. A few beautiful moments. He knelt and grabbed the rope ladder, then climbed down into the darkness. The other bridgemen followed in a silent group. They’d been infected by his mood. WoK 67 - sandwiched in between a couple of positive sun portrayals, I include this as a negative association because of the way Kaladin fears picking up the spear: Lopen’s litter was in front of Kaladin. A spear rested amid the drained water bottles and ragged bandages, steel head reflecting sunlight. It whispered to him. It terrified him, and he loved it. RoW 12 - F Moash: In moments like this – alone and huddled on the floor of a dark room, tormented by agonyspren – Moash’s words found him. The truth of them became undeniable. Out in the garish sunlight, it was easy to pretend that everything was all right. In here, Kaladin could see clearly. You’re just going to keep hurting… His entire life had been a futile effort to stop a storm by yelling at it. The storm didn’t care. Odium As noted at the top of the post, Odium is a weird one because sometimes he's associated with the sun, while other times he's associated with darkness. Odum - sun (some of these don't mention the sun but are included becasue they refer to Odium as the "god of gods" which Szeth and others associate with the sun) Spoiler RoW 86 - Venli flashback mentioning god of gods: Venli had to find a way to pull those stormspren across and capture them. To that end, a large portion of the roiling storm had been broken off by the god of gods, the ancient one called Odium. This storm was his strength, his essence. Over painful months, he’d moved the storm across the landscape – unseen – until it arrived here. WoK 52 - Feverstone Keep vision (included because I think "highway to the sun" here is suggestive of the Recreance being dishonorable): The expansive, straight wall stretched above him, like a highway up to the sun itself. WoK 65 - Dalinar about to join the Battle of the Tower; included becasue we've got a dead Shardblade reflecting sunlight while Dalinar is experiencing the Thrill: Breathing deeply from the Thrill now, Dalinar held his Shardblade up above his head, reflecting sunlight. Below, his men cheered, sending up calls that rose above the Parshendi war chant. Gloryspren sprouted around him. WoK 71 - Szeth arriving in Kharbranth: Szeth kept his eyes down. Partially to imitate the look of a worker. Partially to lower his gaze from the blazing sun above, the god of gods, who watched him and saw his shame. Szeth should not have been out during the day. He should have hidden his terrible face. WoR I-10 - Szeth at Urithiru: Bright sunlight shone down to banish the shadows, which kept those screams to a minimum. The screamers deserved their deaths, of course. They should have killed Szeth. I hate you. I hate … everyone. Glories within, what a strange emotion. He did not look up. He would not meet the gaze of the God of Gods. But it was good to be in the sunlight. Also WoR I-10: “Have I not been faithful?” Szeth shouted, finally looking up to face the sun. His voice echoed against the mountains and their spirit-souls. “Have I not obeyed, kept my oath? Have I not done as you demanded of me?” (Man, this sure makes it seem like the Stone Shamans might be in league with Odium, pushing the idea that the Voidbringers are gone) WoR 88 - Szeth talking to Nale after being resurrected: “My gods are the spirits of the stones,” Szeth whispered. “The sun and the stars. Not men.” (this furthers the idea that the Shin might view Odium as at least one of their gods given that Szeth associates Odium with the sun and lists the sun as a god) ED 3 - included to show parallel with Szeth thinking that he should cover his face up from the sun and that the Tashikki associate Rayse with the sun: An old scribe sat in a seat near the front of the guard post. Nissiqqan liked to be out in the sun. Hauka bowed to him; Nissiqqan was the deputy scribe of immigration on duty for today. The older man was wrapped head-to-toe in a yellow shiqua, though he’d pulled the face portion down to expose a furrowed face with a cleft chin. They were in home lands, and the need to cover up before Nun Raylisi – the enemy of their god – was minimal. Tashi supposedly protected them here. ED 13 - Ghenna, a Tashikki scribe working at the Grand Indecium, exclaiming after seeing Lift glow; included because of mention of God of Gods: “Tashi,” a scribe whispered. “God of Gods and Binder of the World!” Awespren, like a ring of blue smoke, burst out around her head. OB 57 - Odium showing himself to Dalinar: Then everything went white. Dalinar found himself standing on a speck of nothingness that was the entire world, looking up at an eternal, all-embracing flame. It stretched in every direction, starting as red, moving to orange, then changing to blazing white. Then somehow, the flames seemed to burn into a deep blackness, violet and angry. This was something so terrible that it consumed light itself. It was hot. A radiance indescribable, intense heat and black fire, colored violet at the outside. Still OB 57: And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the bliss of every kiss, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt. OB I-6 - Venli referring to Odium as god of gods: Demid had fallen, but she had been preserved. And Odium himself, god of gods, had a purpose for her. OB I-11 - Venli describing Odium coming to chide her for not selling the propaganda well enough: Venli eventually dropped onto a hard surface. She hummed to Destruction and opened her eyes, finding herself standing on a platform hanging high in the sky, far above Roshar, which was a blue and brown globe below. Behind her was a deep, black, nothingness marred only by a tiny blip that could have been a single star. That yellow-white star expanded toward her at an awesome speed, swelling, growing, until it overwhelmed her with an incredible flame. She felt her skin melting, her flesh burning away. OB 109: Venli experiencing Rayse pounding at the Nohadon vison, trying to break in: The clouds and sky seemed to be a mural painted on an enormous dome ceiling, and as the pounds continued, a web of cracks appeared overhead. Beyond them shone a vivid yellow light. With the next pound, the sky fractured and a hole appeared overhead, a powerful light shining beyond. A wind rose around Venli, pulling debris toward that hole in the sky, and the brilliant, terrible light beyond. A sudden pounding broke the air behind her, opening another hole, lower down and near the edge of the city. The sky crumbled into the gap, revealing that hateful light again. ... Terrible heat washed across her from the distant hole. OB 115 - Venli observing Odium’s arrival to oversee the Battle of Thaylen Field: A blistering heat shone behind her. Venli braced herself. She usually only saw him during the storms. But … this was a storm. It hovered behind, immobile, churning the seas. Light crystallized beside her, forming an ancient parshman with a face marbled gold and white, and a regal scepter he carried like a cane. For once, his presence didn’t vaporize her immediately. RoW 6 - Navani when she sees Moash in Hearthstone; included because of Moash's unique Connection to Odium: Navani stood there, frozen with shock. Then she gasped, heat washing over her as if she’d suddenly stepped into burning sunlight. He was here. That murderer was here! RoW I-2 - Sja-Anat describing Odium's arrival: His presence came upon her like the sun piercing the clouds. Powerful, vibrant, smothering. RoW 54 - Renarin describing how Odium appears in his visions: “The more important part is the enemy. He makes up the bulk of this image. A window of yellow-white light breaking into smaller and smaller pieces, into infinity. He is like the sun, Father. He controls and dominates everything – and although your figure raises a sword high, it’s facing the wrong direction." RoW 112 - Dalinar observing an angry Rayse: “You didn’t write this,” Odium said, his eyes narrowing. “Nor did that Elsecaller.” The light grew more vibrant beneath Odium’s skin, and Dalinar could feel its heat – like that of a sun – rising. Making his skin burn. Odium - darkness In addition to the specific examples below, I'd also say that most of the negative associations up in the Dalinar and Kaladin sections above also count as examples of Odium being portrayed as shadows/darkness/setting sun. Spoiler WoR 45 - Shallan trying to help her siblings; included because we know that Unmade was likely the source of the darkness affecting her family: Darkness lay over her house like a storm’s shadow. She would find the sun. She would. RoW 95 - Venli flashback describing coming of Everstorm (I just included this one, but there are obviously a lot more Everstorm blotting out the sun references): Venli allowed herself to attune the rhythm of her true emotions – the wild, frenetic beat of the Rhythm of Panic. A more virulent version of the Rhythm of the Terrors. Everything went black, the last few hints of sunlight consumed by the weight of this new storm. Then, red lighting. It electrified the sky... OB 118 - just after Odium zaps Dalinar’s copy of The Way of Kings: Overhead, the sun finally passed behind the clouds of the storm, and all fell into darkness. RoW 37 - Venli contrasting the highstorm and the Everstorm: Honor’s storm would come as a violent tempest, with a crashing stormwall full of wind and fury. It was an abrupt scream, a battle cry, an intense moment of exultation. Odium’s storm came as a slow, inevitable crescendo. Clouds boiled from one another, ever expanding, creeping forward until they smothered the sunlight. Like a single spark that grows to consume a forest. The Everstorm was a trance of extended passion – an experience, not an event. Other Notable Sun symbolism Spoiler OB 31 - Kal’s describing of the Stormfather: The Stormfather was a face as wide as the sky, dominating like a sunrise. (note the similarity to how Odium describes Dalinar - dominating the battlefield like the sun dominates the sky - when trying to recruit him as his champion) OB 117 - While Dalinar is trying to hold out and not give Odium his pain: A pair of gloryspren swing down from the skies, golden spheres. They floated and spun around Dalinar, brilliant like drops of sunlight. OB 121 - Ash lamenting Taln's madness: The last glimmers of his lucidity had faded. Once, nothing would have kept him from the battlefield when other men died. Today, he had hidden and whimpered during the fighting. Now he followed her like a simpleton. Talenel’Elin had broken like the rest of them. Ishar, she thought. Ishar will know what to do. She fought down the tears – watching him fade had been like watching the sun go out. RoW 8 - Renarin's summoned light interferes with Moash's Connection to Odium, causing Moash to feel his pain: Light exploded into the room. Clean and white, like the light of the brightest diamond. The light of the sun. A brilliant, concentrated purity. Moash growled, spinning around, shading his eyes against the source of the light – which came from the doorway. Also RoW 8 - Kal describing Renarin's light: Kaladin knelt, bathed in that warm light. Yes, warmth. Kaladin felt warm. Surely … if there truly was a deity … it watched him from within that light. RoW 17 - Navani watching the Mink react to Dalinar and Shallan’s map, and relating to his awe: The Mink’s eyes went wide, and awespren burst above him like a ring of smoke. Navani understood that emotion. Watching the Radiants work was like experiencing the intensity of the sun or the majesty of a mountain. RoW I-1 - Syl’s description of the Stormfather: He didn’t need to make a face in the sky for her as he did for mortals. She could feel his attention like the sun’s own heat. Lastly, just wanted to note that I'm intentionally leaving out for now the exploding sun mural in Akinah, seen in Dawnshard. I'm also leaving out the "other light" that Dalinar says the sunlight is distracting him from in OB 122. I suspect those two are related in some way, and I may revise later to incorporate them, if I feel like I have anything coherent to say. Thanks for reading! 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaladinWorldsinger Posted November 9, 2021 Report Share Posted November 9, 2021 Oh my god, I was also trying to find the all the hidden symbolism too for my theory and someone already did it. For my part, I think the sun is definitely thematically a good thing. From your examples it's likely that a rising sunr is portrayed as a good thing and the sun setting is a bad thing instead of sun being good or bad. I think a setting sun is supposed to symbolise the fall of a good man and death of honor in men. The sun itself represents honor and good men in symbolic ways. Sometimes the sun is just used to give an idea of intense heat 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor #5 Posted November 10, 2021 Report Share Posted November 10, 2021 On 2021-11-09 at 6:23 AM, KaladinWorldsinger said: For my part, I think the sun is definitely thematically a good thing. From your examples it's likely that a rising sunr is portrayed as a good thing and the sun setting is a bad thing instead of sun being good or bad. I think a setting sun is supposed to symbolise the fall of a good man and death of honor in men. The sun itself represents honor and good men in symbolic ways. Sometimes the sun is just used to give an idea of intense heat I wholeheartedly agree here, except for Odium being equated with the heat of the sun, or the sun being used simply as a part of the world, pretty much everything connecting the sun to Odium is about the sun setting. There are also other things connecting Odium to darkness: Quote I have seen the end, and have heard it named. The Night of Sorrows, the True Desolation. The Everstorm. Quote They are aflame. They burn. They bring the darkness when they come, and so all you can see is that their skin is aflame. Burn, burn, burn…. Quote Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us. All Way of Kings epigraphs. Quote The day was ours, but they took it. Stormfather! You cannot have it. The day is ours. They come, rasping, and the lights fail. Oh, Stormfather! -WoK, chapter 71 The end is named as the True Desolation, Night of Sorrows and Everstorm, two of which are indisputably connected to Odium, so this is an Odium-darkness/Odium-night paralell. They bring darkness. I'll admit, this is the most questionable sample on this list. If "they" are indeed the Voidbringers, then this is another darkness association. Light grows distant and the storm never stops. A never-ceasing storm could maybe be called an Everstorm? (Might also be about Kaladin's Braize vision, but that still retains an Odium connection.) They come rasping, and the lights fail. Seems a pretty obvious reference to the singers/Fused. Then there's also this: Quote So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life... -WoR, interlude I-14 Which may tie into how at least one of the Sleepless thinks that Dalinar will destroy them, because he has "made the decision of Honor." In addition, if the coming of night/end of day and darkness are symbolic of Odium, there's also this: Quote The darkness becomes a palace. Let it rule! Let it rule! Way of Kings epigraph Besides this, there's also a negative reference with a positive sun connotation. Quote You've killed me. Bastards, you've killed me! While the sun is still hot, I die! Way of Kings epigraph While the Silent Gatherers consider it questionable, it's still interesting. The implication here might be that "I" should not be dying while it's still day. Lending a positivity to the sun. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: This is from OB 115, the scene where Odium takes control of Amaram's army: Quote “Passion,” Odium said. “There is great Passion here.” Venli felt cold. “I’ve prepared these men for decades,” Odium said. “Men who want nothing so much as something to break, to gain vengeance against the one who killed their highprince. Let the singers watch and learn. I’ve prepared a different army to fight for us today.” Ahead of them on the battlefield, the human ranks slumped, their banner wavering. A man in glittering Shardplate, sitting upon a white horse, led them. Deep within his helm, something started glowing red. The dark spren flew toward the men, finding welcoming bodies and willing flesh. The red mist made them lust, made their minds open. And the spren, then, bonded to the men, slipping into those open souls. “Master, you have learned to inhabit humans?” Turash said to Subservience. “Spren have always been able to bond with them, Turash,” Odium said. “It merely requires the right mindset and the right environment.” Ten thousand Alethi in green uniforms gripped their weapons, their eyes glowing a deep, dangerous red. I have a very hard time believing that the folkloric Voidbringers, who can inhabit hearts of men, can be based on the ancient Desolations, and my counterargument is in the very quote you provided. Turash, a Fused, is suprised and awed (going by speaking to Subservience) at this turn of events. Why would he, whom Rayse praises for retaining his sanity, not be aware of this if it happened historically? I also wonder if there are really enough Fused around to bond/possess ten thousand soldiers. It's also a bit odd that Turash says "you have learned," rather than "we can" or something like that? Why is other Fused inhabiting humans Odium learning to do so? On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: First, I don't know if others have caught this, but upon doing a close read of this sequence I realized that I had, for quite some time, mistakenly believed that it was the Thrill that bonded to the soldiers in Amaram's army. It's not. The Thrill is just there to get them in the right mindset. Those are Fused souls that possess Amaram's men. That is actually really interesting, I'd not caught that. I think I want to quibble the word "possess" however, their actions are, IMO, too frenzied for a coherent being to be in the driver's seat. (It also slots right into my staunch position on the Nahel Bond and such, neato.) On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: Fused can possess humans, but for some reason it doesn't kick out their souls/identity like it does when they take over a singer body. Probably because humans and singers don't have the same... "Spiritual physiology," the singer soul is made to accept a spren into it, an adult singer is sort of incomplete without it. The Fused incarnating is them entering the gemheart and presumably forcing out the soul of the singer, while what happens here is probably closer to a Radiant bond, them seeping into the cracks of souls, not filling a Spiritual void and then expanding enough to force the singer out. Something like that. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: It's fairly clear that Odium's long game involved trying to subtly influence humanity and exploit what Kabsal calls their "dual nature," trying to push them in subtle ways (often though the Unmade) to make dishonorable choices. If I may, [Citation Needed]. Given what Rayse says in RoW, his long game was to create Surgebinder soldiers, forged in the crucible of Desolations. I'm pretty sure that Odium is not a tempting Satan-figure. I also think that the entire dual nature thing is theological, people have free will, therefore they can choose how to act. This is just Vorin set-dressing. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: Did our enemies realize that the harder they fought, the stronger we resisted? Perhaps they saw that the heat and the hammer only make for a better grade of sword. But ignore the steel long enough, and it will eventually rust away. Heh, seeing as Rayse's plan was to make humanity his army, this turns out entirely backwards. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: It is the nature of the magic. A broken soul has cracks into which something else can be fit. Surgebindings, the powers of creation themselves. They can brace a broken soul; but they can also widen its fissures. Ehh, that doesn't seem entirely clear to me. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: Here's young-Nohadon from the vision in WoK 60: Quote “Our own nature destroys us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than an ordinary man.” That is commentary on human nature. It's saying nothing about it being dual. The rest is basically saying "turns out great responsibility doesn't come with great power." On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: Here are some other textual references to dual natures - seeing the same thing in different ways depending on how you're approaching it. I'd say that most things aren't just a single thing, they have multiple properties, that's just a side-effect of existence. Moving on to the whole "god of gods" bit. I feel that, as stated above, the sun does not represent Odium, and I don't think that every reference to "god of gods" is to Odium. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: Venli had to find a way to pull those stormspren across and capture them. To that end, a large portion of the roiling storm had been broken off by the god of gods, the ancient one called Odium. This storm was his strength, his essence. Over painful months, he’d moved the storm across the landscape – unseen – until it arrived here. This is Odium, called god of gods by the listeners, as he's the one above the ones they refer to as gods, the Fused. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: Szeth kept his eyes down. Partially to imitate the look of a worker. Partially to lower his gaze from the blazing sun above, the god of gods, who watched him and saw his shame. Szeth should not have been out during the day. He should have hidden his terrible face. Seeing as Szeth's religion is shamanistic and worships the spirits of the stones, the stars and the sun, the most distinct feature of the sky could easily be interpreted as the greatest. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: Bright sunlight shone down to banish the shadows, which kept those screams to a minimum. The screamers deserved their deaths, of course. They should have killed Szeth. I hate you. I hate … everyone. Glories within, what a strange emotion. He did not look up. He would not meet the gaze of the God of Gods. But it was good to be in the sunlight. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: “Have I not been faithful?” Szeth shouted, finally looking up to face the sun. His voice echoed against the mountains and their spirit-souls. “Have I not obeyed, kept my oath? Have I not done as you demanded of me?” On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: “My gods are the spirits of the stones,” Szeth whispered. “The sun and the stars. Not men.” None of these associate Odium to the sun, the closest is Szeth feeling hatred while being in sunlight, but that's tenuous at best. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: this furthers the idea that the Shin might view Odium as at least one of their gods How? On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: given that Szeth associates Odium with the sun and lists the sun as a god Where? Do you have a quote on that? I can not remember that ever being said. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: the Tashikki associate Rayse with the sun They do? I tried looking through Edgedancer, though I was basically scanning for "shiqua" so I might have missed something. Add to that that the Coppermind (which, to be fair, is fallible) doesn't mention the sun in either the Tashikk or shiqua articles. It also feels weird given two things, one of them in your quote. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: An old scribe sat in a seat near the front of the guard post. Nissiqqan liked to be out in the sun. Hauka bowed to him; Nissiqqan was the deputy scribe of immigration on duty for today. The older man was wrapped head-to-toe in a yellow shiqua, though he’d pulled the face portion down to expose a furrowed face with a cleft chin. They were in home lands, and the need to cover up before Nun Raylisi – the enemy of their god – was minimal. Tashi supposedly protected them here. If Nun Raylisi is the sun, why does a Tashikki like being out in the sun? It feels like something that would be very rare given culture and religion in that case. The other is that the orphanage is Tashi's Light, which presumably isn't a blasphemous name or an inherent contradiction. Add to that the exclamation of "Tashi above!" in chapter 8 of Edgedancer, and it might be Tashi/Ishar who has a sun-association, if anyone. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: “Tashi,” a scribe whispered. “God of Gods and Binder of the World!” Awespren, like a ring of blue smoke, burst out around her head. I have already said that I don't think that each "god of gods" has to be the same. The listener reference is undeniably Odium, the Tashikki is to Ishar, presumably because of his primacy, being above the Nine, and the last is to the sun in Stone shamanism. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: Demid had fallen, but she had been preserved. And Odium himself, god of gods, had a purpose for her. Again, god of the Fused—god of gods. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: included because I think "highway to the sun" here is suggestive of the Recreance being dishonorable I really don't see it. On 2021-11-09 at 4:24 AM, mdross81 said: The expansive, straight wall stretched above him, like a highway up to the sun itself. I think that is just a poetic way of saying "it very tall." And in any case, I'd read it more as an Honor association than Odium. It's also interesting to note, the Rosharan star looks white, as opposed to our familiar yellow, and I think that it would be far easier to culturally associate the white light of the sun with the white (unless you really look) light of the storms, of Honor. On the other hand, Voidlight basically glows dark, it's described as seeming to suck in the light around it. Now, I am prepared to agree that the sun's heat has a heavy Odium-association, but I don't think the sun's light does. Then again, there's quite a bit of heat imagery in general attached to Odium, isn't there? The heat of a sun is a good description, but we also see it in other places. The Everstorm is often dry and ashen, as well as sometimes having cinders. Odium has heavy heat/fire and end-of-day/darkness symbolism. Notice also how Taln is halucinating that everything burns, presumably as an effect of the torture. And of course, there are all the times quoted in the OP where Odium's being is described as the heat of the sun or multiple suns, though I think the emphasis there is on the heat, burning to ash and melting and the like. Oh, and on the note of the Radiants-sun comparisons, that might mostly be because of how glowy they are. So I suppose in conclusion, I disagree that every mention of the sun means the same thing, heat vs light, rising vs setting and the whole god of gods bit, though I think there's some merit to this. I also hope I didn't come across as too abrasive, I might have been a bit rude at parts, my apologies. ¤_¤ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mdross81 Posted November 11, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2021 23 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: I also hope I didn't come across as too abrasive, I might have been a bit rude at parts, my apologies. First of all, no worries about this. I've seen enough of your posts on Shard to know you are thorough, and perhaps ... strident? ... stringent? ... I'm not sure the right word, but no offense take. And I concede that, in my desire to pull all of these various sun references together and weave them into a cohesive theory, I probably read more into some of them than is warranted, and/or shoehorned things that don't necessarily fit. Now, on to some substantive points. 23 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: I have a very hard time believing that the folkloric Voidbringers, who can inhabit hearts of men, can be based on the ancient Desolations, and my counterargument is in the very quote you provided. Turash, a Fused, is suprised and awed (going by speaking to Subservience) at this turn of events. Why would he, whom Rayse praises for retaining his sanity, not be aware of this if it happened historically? I also wonder if there are really enough Fused around to bond/possess ten thousand soldiers. It's also a bit odd that Turash says "you have learned," rather than "we can" or something like that? Why is other Fused inhabiting humans Odium learning to do so? These are good points that definitely call into question whether the folklore about Voidbringers inhabiting mens' hearts is based on ancient Fused literally doing just that. It's probably more likely that the folklore grew out of the actions of the Unmade. However, I stand by the fact that, as demonstrated by what happens at the Battle of Thaylen field, Fused can, given the proper mindset and environment, bond humans. It seems like it may be very difficult to do however. Odium mentions that he had been preparing the soldiers for decades. So maybe his line making it sound like it's no big deal to inhabit humans is puffery. 23 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: I think I want to quibble the word "possess" however, their actions are, IMO, too frenzied for a coherent being to be in the driver's seat. Fair enough. I'm not wedded to the term "possessed," and yet despite Turash referring to what happened as the Fused "bonding" with the soldiers in Amaram's army, that didn't really seem like the right word either. Maybe "inhabited" or "temporarily bonded" is the sweet spot. 23 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: If I may, [Citation Needed]. Given what Rayse says in RoW, his long game was to create Surgebinder soldiers, forged in the crucible of Desolations. Also fair. However, I do still think that he attempted to subtly influence/corrupt humans. Perhaps in the medium term is more correct - influencing humans with things like the Thrill is what kept them fighting. I also think, though I concede we haven't seen firm evidence of this yet, that he probably tried to gain influence/control over some humans as a means of fielding agents to help him work around Taln and what remained of the Oathpact. For example, here's a couple of quotes from Ulim and Venli discussing their plans in RoW 73: Quote It's been building in Shadesmar for centuries. We need to get our agents close enough to it on this side - a place that is out in the ocean, mind you - so they can use gemstones to pull my brothers and sisters across. ... "You have agents among the humans, Ulim?" Venli whispered. We do. "Can you communicate with them?" I have ways of doing so. "Have your agents influence those at the palace, Venli said. "Get the Alethi king to invite us to visit." And even if it really was just Axindweth at this point (which I don't buy, she would have needed the help of others to get out to the place in the ocean and collect Ulim), Venli later gives her scholars gems that she says contain voidspren like Ulim. Though, curiously, we never see evidence that this is true. Nor do we get any explanation of how she got ahold of the gems if it is true. But that certainly would have required human agents. Not necessarily humans swayed by Odium I grant. Could be other worldhoppers who are aligned with Odium for some reason (like Axindweth). So, even if we take Rayse at his word that his long game involved building a force strong warriors, attempting to influence the hearts of men may have still been a part of that. 23 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said: Moving on to the whole "god of gods" bit. I feel that, as stated above, the sun does not represent Odium, and I don't think that every reference to "god of gods" is to Odium. On the god of gods thing, I think we at least agree that when Venli says it, she is referring to Odium. And I buy your explanation for why - he's the god above their old gods, the Fused. As for Szeth and the Tashikki, it's possible that they are not referring to Odium when they say that. Let's take them one at a time. For Szeth, at the very least, whomever he's referencing when he says "god of gods" he definitely equates that entity with the sun. And he believes he should (1) not look upon that entity; (2) should not be out during the day; and (3) should hide his face. From WoK 71, when he arrives in Kharbranth: Quote Szeth kept his eyes down. Partially to imitate the look of a worker. Partially to lower his gaze from the blazing sun above, the god of gods, who watched him and saw his shame. Szeth should not have been out during the day. He should have hidden his terrible face. And these two are from WoR I-10 when he's atop Urithiru: Quote Bright sunlight shone down to banish the shadows, which kept those screams to a minimum. The screamers deserved their deaths, of course. They should have killed Szeth. I hate you. I hate … everyone. Glories within, what a strange emotion. He did not look up. He would not meet the gaze of the God of Gods. But it was good to be in the sunlight. ... “Have I not been faithful?” Szeth shouted, finally looking up to face the sun. His voice echoed against the mountains and their spirit-souls. “Have I not obeyed, kept my oath? Have I not done as you demanded of me?” So we have bright sunlight shining down, Szeth experiencing strong feeling of hatred, and again we have him averting his gaze. Then he looks up at the sun and shouts about keeping his oath, and doing what was demanded of him, presumably talking about obeying the holders of his oathstone, which is something that was required of him because of the Stone Shamans. So, whatever entity he's addressing there, is definitely associated in some way with the Shin religion. I'll note that when the "god of gods" was first referenced in the WoK except neither god was with a capital G, but in the WoR mention, both are capitalized. Not sure if that means anything or not. I don't know. To me, the strong hatred he finds himself experiencing when the bright sunlight shines down makes me think that he's referencing Odium. But I can understand if others do not agree. Turning to the Tashikki, it seems like we're in agreement that when they reference Nun-Raylisi, who is "the enemy of their god" that is a reference to Rayse/Odium. And, as with Szeth, they have religious taboos involving being out in the sun and showing their face. Although there's an additional component with the Tashikki in that it's ok for them to do so if they are in "lands that know Tashi." Here's a slightly expanded version of the quote I included above from ED 13, featuring the scribe Ghenna: Quote The woman wore spectacles and kept her face covered, despite being in lands that knew Tashi. … Lift squirmed, making herself awesome, squeezing through their fingers. She just had to – “Tashi,” a scribe whispered. “God of Gods and Binder of the World!” Awespren, like a ring of blue smoke, burst out around her head. The exclamation here is at least a little bit ambiguous as to whether or not "God of Gods" and "Binder of the World" are the same entity. But I grant that by starting off saying "Tashi!" it seems like both of those epithets refer to Tashi, their name for Ishar, who they seem to set above the other 9 heralds, which makes him the god of gods. But I come back to the idea that they seem to equate the sun, or - at the very least - something in the same direction as the sun, with Rayse/Odium (whom they call Nun-Raylisi), the enemy of their god, Tashi. Unless they are in the home lands (or lands that know Tashi, which may be synonymous) they need to hide their face from Nun-Raylisi. Same thing with Szeth. He equates something in the sky, whether it's the sun, or merely something in the same direction as the sun, with the god of gods. And I see at least some evidence that when he uses that phrase he means Odium. But I can understand why you think it's tenuous. Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful response. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaladinWorldsinger Posted November 12, 2021 Report Share Posted November 12, 2021 9 hours ago, mdross81 said: So we have bright sunlight shining down, Szeth experiencing strong feeling of hatred, and again we have him averting his gaze. Then he looks up at the sun and shouts about keeping his oath, and doing what was demanded of him, presumably talking about obeying the holders of his oathstone, which is something that was required of him because of the Stone Shamans. So, whatever entity he's addressing there, is definitely associated in some way with the Shin religion. I'll note that when the "god of gods" was first referenced in the WoK except neither god was with a capital G, but in the WoR mention, both are capitalized. Not sure if that means anything or not. I think the sun is a benevolent god in their religion and not at all associated with odium or hatred. He prolly does not feel like he deserves sunlight after becoming truthless. He does not want the sun god to see his shame. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mdross81 Posted November 12, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2021 5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: I think the sun is a benevolent god in their religion and not at all associated with odium or hatred. He prolly does not feel like he deserves sunlight after becoming truthless. He does not want the sun god to see his shame. Could be. I guess I was just focused on the similarities between Szeth and the Tashikkis talking about covering their face, and reading into this bit from Edgedancer: Quote An old scribe sat in a seat near the front of the guard post. Nissiqqan liked to be out in the sun. Hauka bowed to him; Nissiqqan was the deputy scribe of immigration on duty for today. The older man was wrapped head-to-toe in a yellow shiqua, though he’d pulled the face portion down to expose a furrowed face with a cleft chin. They were in home lands, and the need to cover up before Nun Raylisi – the enemy of their god – was minimal. Tashi supposedly protected them here. The Tashikki definitely seem to associate the need to cover their faces with hiding them from Odium. And the discussion of covering the face in this passage seems to be associated with being out in the sun. Though I concede that, as with Szeth, there’s a mention of liking being out in the sun. I can’t figure out how the underlined bit about “covering up before Nun Raylisi” fits. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaladinWorldsinger Posted November 12, 2021 Report Share Posted November 12, 2021 6 hours ago, mdross81 said: Could be. I guess I was just focused on the similarities between Szeth and the Tashikkis talking about covering their face, and reading into this bit from Edgedancer: The Tashikki definitely seem to associate the need to cover their faces with hiding them from Odium. And the discussion of covering the face in this passage seems to be associated with being out in the sun. Though I concede that, as with Szeth, there’s a mention of liking being out in the sun. I can’t figure out how the underlined bit about “covering up before Nun Raylisi” fits. Oh the Tashikki definitely are associating the sun with odium. The Name is Nun-RAYlisi like Rayse. He is also the enemy of their god, meaning we can be sure that the god of gods in this case is definitely not odium( it's probably ishar) There is no association with the shin sun god to evil. Instead szeth thinks of himself as evil and clearly feels shame in sunlight. Also the purelakers, like Tashikki, believe in two gods, BUT they they believe in never covering yourself from the sunlight. Their enemy of God is Vun-Makak or something, which seems a clear odium parallel. So we can be sure the sun is not always odium is not always god of gods 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor #5 Posted November 13, 2021 Report Share Posted November 13, 2021 On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: First of all, no worries about this. Phew On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: I've seen enough of your posts on Shard to know you are thorough, and perhaps ... strident? ... stringent? Heh, I do try to be thorough. And given this definition: Quote presenting a point of view, especially a controversial one, in an excessively forceful way. -Oxford Languages I can see why strident might be used about me. Heh. Anyway, moving on from my personal failings. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: And I concede that, in my desire to pull all of these various sun references together and weave them into a cohesive theory, I probably read more into some of them than is warranted, and/or shoehorned things that don't necessarily fit. Things like that happen to all of us. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: It's probably more likely that the folklore grew out of the actions of the Unmade. That I agree with, along with bog standard superstition and denial about how normal people, people you know, can do horrible things. It's easy to blame evil spirits for turning someone voilent, for instance. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: However, I stand by the fact that, as demonstrated by what happens at the Battle of Thaylen field, Fused can, given the proper mindset and environment, bond humans. Oh, I definitely agree 100%. Given this WoB: Quote EHyde As Lift's spren refers to the Nightwatcher as Mother, right... Brandon Sanderson He definitely calls somebody a mother. The implication in the text is that it's the Nightwatcher. EHyde Certainly, so I'm just going to run with that right now. So the question that I'm asking is, is surgebinding in general a melding of Honor and Odium, a la feruchemy being in some sense not directly derivative of Ruin and Preservation? Brandon Sanderson It is...Honor and Cultivation is what you mean? EHyde Yes. Brandon Sanderson There are spren of all three Shards, and those spren can work within the bounds of the magic that has already been set up on Roshar. EHyde What Shard are Cryptics associated with? Brandon Sanderson RAFO. Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) As well as this one (Mistborn: Secret History spoilers) Spoiler Quote Blightsong Could Kelsier theoretically bond with someone on Roshar? Brandon Sanderson Yes. OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016) I'd say there's strong support for that idea. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: Odium mentions that he had been preparing the soldiers for decades. I think that's mostly just that he's been driving them to be his for decades, but goals can align. See also these: Quote "A contest of champions. For the fate of Roshar." "Very well," Odium said, then sighed softly. "I agree." "That easily?" "Oh, I assure you. This won't be easy." Odium raised his eyebrows in an open, inviting way. A concerned expression. "I have chosen my champion already. I've been preparing him for a long, long time." "Amaram." "Him? A passionate man, yes, but hardly suited to this task. No, I need someone who dominates a battlefield like the sun dominates the sky." -Oathbringer, chapter 117 Quote Memories flooded Dalinar's mind, a devastating onslaught of images. He lived them all in detail, somehow squeezed into a moment, the Thrill raging inside him. He saw himself stab a soldier in the back. A young man trying to crawl to safety, crying for his mother . . . "I was with you then," Odium said. He killed a far better man than himself, a highlord who had held Teleb's loyalty. Dalinar knocked him to the ground, then slammed a poleaxe into his chest. "I was with you then." -Oathbringer, chapter 118 Quote Meridas held up the gemstone, inspecting it, then glanced toward Dalinar Kholin. "So you've been speaking to him all this time too?" "Even longer than I've been speaking to you" -Oathbringer, chapter 118 Odium has been driving people of the current generation to be his for a looong time. Both events referenced in the second quote are found in the first flashback in Oathbringer, chapter 3, which is given as 34 years ago. Another interesting thing, from Ash's pov: Quote The large tent near the wall was completely unguarded, though soldiers had run past her a short time ago, eyes glowing with the light of corrupted Investiture. Odium has learned to possess men. A dark, dangerous day. He'd always been able to tempt them to fight for him, but sending spren to bond with them? Terrible. -Oathbringer, chapter 117 Where it's both attributed to Odium and his spren. Though the difference might be an academic one, what with Voidspren being (at least partly) of Odium. (I also have a theory that while Tanavast was alive he checked the Nahel bond in some way, preventing this bonding from taking place during earlier Desolations, just as Sja-anat apparently couldn't Enlighted Radiant spren before.) On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: So maybe his line making it sound like it's no big deal to inhabit humans is puffery. I can 100% believe that Rayse, being an absolute drama queen, is just making himself look cool. (This is the guy who staged an entire battle for show in Oathbringer, after all.) On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: I'm not wedded to the term "possessed," and yet despite Turash referring to what happened as the Fused "bonding" with the soldiers in Amaram's army, that didn't really seem like the right word either. Maybe "inhabited" or "temporarily bonded" is the sweet spot. Yeah, I'm not really sure exactly what's going on there. I think that the base mechanic is the bonding mechanic that's all over Roshar, but what the heck the specifics are, well... On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: However, I do still think that he attempted to subtly influence/corrupt humans. Perhaps in the medium term is more correct - influencing humans with things like the Thrill is what kept them fighting. Fair enough. The way you said it sounded a lot like the idea of the Devil (or whatever) acting as a tempter and trying to make people do evil to me. Acting dishonourable just for the sake of acting dishonourable. I agree entirely that he tried to get humanity to his side though. (If he was "anti-honour" he'd not tolerate the conduct of the shanay-im.) On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: I also think, though I concede we haven't seen firm evidence of this yet, that he probably tried to gain influence/control over some humans as a means of fielding agents to help him work around Taln and what remained of the Oathpact. Yeah, that tracks. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: And even if it really was just Axindweth at this point (which I don't buy, she would have needed the help of others to get out to the place in the ocean and collect Ulim) Agreed, there probably aren't enough spheres to bribe the greediest Rosharan sailor to go to the middle of the ocean. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: Though, curiously, we never see evidence that this is true. Nor do we get any explanation of how she got ahold of the gems if it is true. But that certainly would have required human agents. Yeah, or some other sapient species. Humans would obviously blend in the best, of course. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: Not necessarily humans swayed by Odium I grant. Could be other worldhoppers who are aligned with Odium for some reason (like Axindweth). Depends on what you mean by "swayed by Odium." I don't think they are working for/with him just because. Just because they aren't molded by him like the Sadeas soldiers, doesn't mean they aren't swayed. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: So, even if we take Rayse at his word that his long game involved building a force strong warriors, attempting to influence the hearts of men may have still been a part of that. Well, raising an army wouldn't do you much good if they didn't listen to you. So he obviously would need some way of influencing them. I suppose the way this was phrased made it read like a God and the Devil fighting over human souls narrative to me, which may not have been your intent. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: On the god of gods thing, I think we at least agree that when Venli says it, she is referring to Odium. Yes On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: For Szeth, at the very least, whomever he's referencing when he says "god of gods" he definitely equates that entity with the sun. Yes On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: And he believes he should (1) not look upon that entity; (2) should not be out during the day; and (3) should hide his face. Yes, I read this as stemming from his nature as Truthless. He thinks he's a horrible being who doesn't deserve sunlight. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: So we have bright sunlight shining down, Szeth experiencing strong feeling of hatred, and again we have him averting his gaze. I think he's breaking from, well, everything about his situation. He's conditioned to loathe himself for being Truthless, his religion/culture tells him that he has to do whatever the holder of his oathstone says, but that he's still responsible for the actions his masters have him commit. That kind of thing is probably going to mess you up. He wants to die and hates everyone he's killed for not killing him and hates himself. I don't think the sunlight is connected to his feeling of hatred, other than through the significance of the sun in Stone Shamanism. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: So, whatever entity he's addressing there, is definitely associated in some way with the Shin religion. That I agree with. Given that shamanic traditions are about interacting with a world of spirits, I think it's either the spirit of the sun, the sun representing a spirit, or the sun being deified in itself. There's also this bit: Quote "Who are you?" Szeth asked. "You spend this long obeying the precepts of your people and religion, yet you fail to recognize one of your own gods?" "My gods are the spirits of the stones," Szeth whispered. "The sun and stars. Not men." "Nonsense. Your people revere the spren of stone, but you do not worship them." That crescent . . . He recognized it, didn't he? "You, Szeth," the man said, "worship order, do you not? You follow the laws of your society to perfection. This attracted me, though I worry that emotion has clouded your ability to discern. Your ability to . . . judge." -WoR, chapter 88 Nale differentiates Szeth from the religion of the Shin, but we have no reason to doubt Szeth's statement about Stone Shamanism. I will admit that Szeth's statement is a bit ambiguous, in that it's not possible to tell if it's meant as "the spirits of the stones, the sun and the stars," or "the spirits of the stones and the sun and stars." In any case, I don't think that Stone Shamanism really has more abstract gods, but more so direct representations of the things themselves. As in, I don't think that they have a god of the sun, but the sun is a god. And if they worship representations of the natural world, then I don't think that it's weird to see something as present and overwhelming as the sun as the greatest of the gods. God of gods in a similar way to king of kings. I also think that Szeth calling Nale "Nin-son-God" indicates that whatever his conception of "God," it probably doesn't equate to Odium. Looking for a different thing, I also found this: Quote Szeth got out a sphere for light, as Nin did not appear to be so inclined. That drove the whispers back. "I visited Ishar," Nin continued. "You call him Ishu-son-God." -Oathbringer, chapter 106 So it seems that calling the Heralds name-son-God (or -daughter-God, presumably) is standard Shin practice, so it sounds more like Honor is deified, if anything. It feels strange if the Heralds are associated with Odium. The idea that the Shin worship Odium also doesn't really track to me, for a few reasons: Quote Questioner He said, "I was reading through *inaudible* Szeth section he mentioned that 'we are all that remains'. Is he saying that the Shin are the lost Order? The one that didn't abandon the oaths? Of course the section *inaudible* alternatives-- *interrupted* Brandon Sanderson What they are doing is-- Szeth is saying, "We are all that remains that remembers what happened before." [...] And they may be-- they may not remember accurately. But they consider themselves the only ones who know. Does that make sense? [...] It is not reference to the Orders. Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014) I don't think that the idea of being the ones who remember lines up well with worshipping Odium. Also: Quote "Answer me!" Szeth screamed. "Did you kill the man who held that Blade before you?" "Of course not, foolish man," Ishar said, summoning his Blade. "The Shin serve the Heralds. They held my sword for me. They returned it when I revealed myself." Quote "My people," Szeth shouted, "were not going to return your weapons to you. We kept your secrets, but you lie if you say my father gave you that Blade!" "Your father was barely a man when I found him," Ishar said. "The Shin had accepted the Unmade. Tried to make gods of them. I saved them. And your father did give me this Blade. He thanked me for letting him die." -both RoW, chapter 111 Szeth says that the Shin kept the Heralds' secrets (presumably that they didn't actually win at the Last Desolation) and that they were not going to give the Honorblades back. Ishar claims the Shin merely held the Blades for the Heralds and that they had made gods of the Unmade. Neither feels like an indication that the Shin historically worshipped Odium, if they did, why keep the secrets and not try to undermine the idea of the Heralds. The worship of the Unmade also sounds like a recent thing to me. Would that not have been happening historically, as an effect of worshipping Odium? (Funnily enough, I do think that the Stone Shamanate are not to be trusted, just for different reasons.) On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: I'll note that when the "god of gods" was first referenced in the WoK except neither god was with a capital G, but in the WoR mention, both are capitalized. Not sure if that means anything or not. Huh. I don't think it means anything, probably just a mistake or something. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: I don't know. To me, the strong hatred he finds himself experiencing when the bright sunlight shines down makes me think that he's referencing Odium. And I think it's just mundane hatred. Especially in light of this: Quote theblackthorne I find the Shin fascinating. Given their reputation for docility and Szeth's internal monologues, am I right in thinking that the Shin do not feel The Thrill? If so, is this due to the protection of Cultivation or sheer distance from Nergaoul? And finally, is an awareness or fear of the Thrill the reason for the Shin societal disdain for soldiers or is it primarily to discourage use of the honour blades? Brandon Sanderson Distance is the big factor here, though there are cultural reasons for things as well. In addition, being very close to something tied to Honor reduces the effects of things like the Thrill. As for the Shin culture, you'll find a great deal in the next three books, so I'd rather not say much now. /r/books AMA 2015 (July 7, 2015) If being close to something tied to Honor makes things like the Thrill less able to affect people (which should be the Honorblades), that makes the hatred Szeth feels more likely to be mundane on origin. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: Turning to the Tashikki, it seems like we're in agreement that when they reference Nun-Raylisi, who is "the enemy of their god" that is a reference to Rayse/Odium. Yes: Quote Paleo (paraphrased) Is Tashi a Herald and if so, which one? Is Nun Raylisi Odium? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes to both. I think the Herald is Ishar, but I'd have to double check. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: And, as with Szeth, they have religious taboos involving being out in the sun and showing their face. There we disagree. I don't think the things we see from Szeth are taboos, he simply feels that he should hide his shame, not that being in the sun is taboo. I also can't recall where it's stated that the Tashikki have to cover up in the sun, they just have to cover up before Nun Raylisi, whatever that means. If you have a quote on that the sun is equated with Nun Raylisi, I'd love to see it. He might simply be an abstract spirit, who can see you anywhere outside Tashikk. If nothing else, why do they wear shiquas at night? On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: Although there's an additional component with the Tashikki in that it's ok for them to do so if they are in "lands that know Tashi." "Lands that know Tashi" presumably means Tashikk. Seeing how it's said that Tashi/Ishar supposedly protects them, they presumably don't need the protection of the shiqua. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: The exclamation here is at least a little bit ambiguous as to whether or not "God of Gods" and "Binder of the World" are the same entity. It's very, very odd if that is not the case. Quote Light from the rising sun sparkled off painted sections of the walls, here displaying a grand mural of Tashi and the Nine binding the world. -Edgedancer, chapter 8 And I feel like it would be odd to say "Tashi, [title of someone else], [title of Tashi]." Since Tashi almost has to be "Binder of the World." I think it's pretty safe to say that "God of Gods" also refers to him. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: But I grant that by starting off saying "Tashi!" it seems like both of those epithets refer to Tashi, their name for Ishar, who they seem to set above the other 9 heralds, which makes him the god of gods. That's my take on it. Ishar also calls himself "Herald of Heralds" in his letter to the coalition, which is interesting. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: But I come back to the idea that they seem to equate the sun, or - at the very least - something in the same direction as the sun, with Rayse/Odium (whom they call Nun-Raylisi), the enemy of their god, Tashi. Seeing as, at the market in Edgedancer, chapter 8, someone swears by "Tashi above!" I don't think I agree They need to cover themselves from Nun Raylisi, but I've seen no evidence that means the sun, or even something in the sky. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: Same thing with Szeth. He equates something in the sky, whether it's the sun, or merely something in the same direction as the sun, with the god of gods. Yes, given that he explicitly lists the sun as a Shin god, I'd say that that tracks. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: And I see at least some evidence that when he uses that phrase he means Odium. Respectfully disagree. I can see how you think, but I don't agree with your conclusion. On 2021-11-12 at 10:57 AM, mdross81 said: The Tashikki definitely seem to associate the need to cover their faces with hiding them from Odium. I'm pretty sure it's not just the face, I think that the reason for the shiqua and how you're supposed to wear it is because they need to cover themselves as much as possible. But yes, it's supposed to protect them from Nun Raylisi in some fashion. On 2021-11-12 at 10:57 AM, mdross81 said: And the discussion of covering the face in this passage seems to be associated with being out in the sun. Ah, I see those as entirely separate statements. Being in the sun is entirely divorced from wearing the shiqua, IMO. On 2021-11-12 at 10:57 AM, mdross81 said: I can’t figure out how the underlined bit about “covering up before Nun Raylisi” fits. If Nun Raylisi is simply a Devil-figure/evil spirit/evil god, then he can have the ability to percieve things without there being some thing that he sees from. Covering up so that the nebulous evil entity can't see/affect you. 22 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: There is no association with the shin sun god to evil. Instead szeth thinks of himself as evil and clearly feels shame in sunlight. Excellent point. I also want to add a bit on the descriptions of Odium being the heat of the sun and an all-consuming flame and the like. So, here's our description of Odium: Quote Then everything went white. Dalinar found himself standing on a speck of nothingness that was the entire world, looking up at an eternal all-embracing flame. It stretched in every direction, starting as red, moving to orange, then changing to blazing white. Then somehow, the flames seemed to burn into a deep blackness, violet and angry. This was something so terrible that it consumed light itself. It was hot. A radiance indescribable, intense heat and black fire, colored violet at the outside. Burning. Overwhelming. Power. It was the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield. It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy. It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory. And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the bliss of every kiss, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt. -Oathbringer, chapter 57 To me this is the description of the overwhelming nature of a Shard. Mistborn: Secret History: Spoiler Describing Ruin: Quote In that other place, he found destruction. Decay. Not blackness, for blackness was too complete, too whole to represent the thing he sensed in the Beyond. It was a vast force that would gleefully take something as simple as darkness, then rip it apart. This force was time infinite. It was the winds that weathered, the storms that broke, the timeless waves running slowly, slowly, slowly to a stop as the sun and the planet cooled to nothing. It was the ultimate end of all things. And it was angry. And Preservation: Quote And in that moment, Kelsier was reminded why he had named this creature a god in the first place. There was an infinity beyond those eyes, a complement to the one trapped here in this Well. Fuzz was the infinity of a note held perfectly, never wavering. The majesty of a painting, frozen and still, capturing a slice of life from a time gone by. It was the power of many, many moments compressed somehow into one. -both Mistborn: Secret History, part 2, chapter 1 These aren't even someone percieving the fullness of a Shard the way Dalinar did, and yet they are described in this awesome way. And as I've already said, I think the heat and darkness angle is more "correct" for Odium. There's also this part, when Dalinar goes to the Nightwatcher: Quote Suddenly he saw himself in the Unclaimed Hills, fighting those traitorous parshmen. He saw himself killing, and hacking, and murdering. He saw his lust, eyes wide and teeth clenched in a dreadful grin. A skull's grin. He saw himself strangling Elhokar, who had never possessed his father's poise or charm. Dalinar took the throne. It should have been his anyway. His armies poured into Herdaz, then Jah Keved. He became a king of kings, a mighty conqueror whose accomplishments far overshadowed those of his brother. Dalinar forged a unified Vorin empire that covered half of Roshar. An unparalleled feat! And he saw them burn. Hundreds of villages. Thousands upon thousands of people. It was the only way. If a town resisted, you burned it to the ground. You slaughtered any who fought back, and you left the corpses of their loved ones to feed the scavengers. You sent terror before you like a storm until your enemies surrendered. The Rift would be but the first in a long line of examples. He saw himself standing upon the heaped corpses, laughing. Yes, he had escaped the drink. He had become something grand and terrible. This was his future. -Oathbringer, chapter 114 This sounds a lot like a Dalinar who becomes Odium's champion, or a Dalinar careening down the path to becoming that champion. And there's quite a bit of destructive fire in there as well. And there's these interesting tidbits: Quote A dark, pulsing flame was moving down from above. Leshwi. Quote The nine varieties were called "brands" in their own language, a word evoking the heat of a branding iron, though Venli had seen no such mark on their skin. -both RoW, chapter 11 Leshwi's soul looks like a flame in Shadesmar and the word brands evokes a branding iron, further heat/burning/fire associations for Odium. Finally, because I have to stop typing sometime, there's this: Quote Other Voices were gathering. There were some thirty of them—she'd been led to believe that there would be as many as a hundred, once all the Fused were awake. Quote Leshwi was, for a high lady, low ranked. A field commander, but stilm merely a soldier. She was both the very crust of the unimportant and very dregs of the important. -both RoW, chapter 14 So, Leshwi is a high lady, one of a hundred Fused who are of high enough rank to be present at assemblies like these. Not only do I find it unlikely that there would be ten thousand Fused souls lying around for Thaylen Field, and given that the Fused wake up in waves (only about thirty high-ranked Fused are present here in RoW) those could only have been part of the very first wave(s.) If the number of high-rank Fused is in any way proportional to the number of lower-rank Fused, there'd be somewhere between, like, thirty to fifty thousand total Fused, possibly more. I really don't think that's reasonable, feels like too many. I also feel that if there are that many, someone who is "merely a soldier" is very unlikely to be important enough to be of Leshwi's rank. So I feel like Venli must be mistaken about those being Fused, or something odd is going on. On 2021-11-11 at 8:06 PM, mdross81 said: Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful response. Happy you appreciate it. ¤_¤ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mdross81 Posted November 13, 2021 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said: And there's quite a bit of destructive fire in there as well. Yeah, I think you’ve sold me on Odium being very much associated with dark flames/fire and intense heat, which shares some qualities with, but is distinct from, the sun. And it seems that the “god of gods” is: - Odium for Venli (and maybe the singers more broadly? I think she’s the only one who says it though) - probably Honor for the Shin; and - Tashi (Ishar) for the Tashikki 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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