samsocial Posted November 2, 2021 Posted November 2, 2021 We know that Radiants broke oath and killed sprens. How come all of them did it at once? Wasn't there trial and error to check the consequences ? Radiant are all over Roshar, how did they manage to inform this to each and every Radiant Was there an annual gathering of Radiants where they did this ritual? How come none of them denied/accidently survived by lack of communication? Also, the way different Radiants break oath seems different for each Radiant Jasna is OK to kill the Harards and nothing happens to her Spren Whereas Kalidan helped to kill Elohkar and He almost killed Syl Then how all the ancient Radiants managed to break oaths at the same time ?
Tglassy Posted November 2, 2021 Posted November 2, 2021 It was likely a group discussion/decision between the Radiants and their Soren, all coming to the same conclusion due to information we just don’t have right now. We know the Spren chose to have the oaths broken, it wasn’t a betrayal. But SOMETHING was going on more than had been told. It could just be because Honor was going insane and told everyone they would eventually destroy Roshar, but I feel like we just don’t know the whole story. They were saving everyone from….something. We just don’t know what.
earthexile Posted November 4, 2021 Posted November 4, 2021 If all Radiants broke their oath on purpose, at the same time, we can safely assume that the broken oath must have been the first, because all Radiants have that in common. My hypothesis is that they became aware of some kind of long-term threat or goal in the distant future, which convinced them that the Immortal Words were in fact wrong, or that they didn't believe them anymore. Life Before Death? Not if you're primarily concerned with things that will happen long after you'll be dead. Strength Before Weakness? Maybe their own power became such a threat that it would be better to be weak. Journey Before Destination? Maybe in this case, they truly believed that the ends would justify the means. The question is, what did they see coming?
Frustration Posted November 5, 2021 Posted November 5, 2021 It wasn't at the same time. Feverstone keep was just Windrunners and Stonewards, the other orders did so at different times. However Once oaths were broken none of them had a way to check on their spren to see the effects Even if they did find out Windrunners broke oaths first, there would have been no way to communicate it to the others. 1
samsocial Posted November 5, 2021 Author Posted November 5, 2021 3 hours ago, Frustration said: It wasn't at the same time. Feverstone keep was just Windrunners and Stonewards, the other orders did so at different times. However Once oaths were broken none of them had a way to check on their spren to see the effects Even if they did find out Windrunners broke oaths first, there would have been no way to communicate it to the others. Why there was no way to check sprens? They could have travelled to shademar using oath gates, perpendicularity, etc, if they did not break oaths same time that means there were still people travelling to shadsmar using oath gates operated by Radiant blades Why Windrunners cannot communicate with others? They can speak, right? 1
+Oltux72 he/him Posted November 5, 2021 Posted November 5, 2021 On 2.11.2021 at 9:13 PM, Tglassy said: It was likely a group discussion/decision between the Radiants and their Soren, all coming to the same conclusion due to information we just don’t have right now. No. I am sorry, but you have explained why they all did the same thing. But you have to explain why they did the same thing at the same time. 11 hours ago, earthexile said: My hypothesis is that they became aware of some kind of long-term threat or goal in the distant future, which convinced them that the Immortal Words were in fact wrong, or that they didn't believe them anymore. I am sorry, but that doesn't explain anything. Under that premise the simplest respone would hve been to literally do nothing. Let time take its course and the spren do not rebond. Problem solved. 3 hours ago, Frustration said: It wasn't at the same time. Feverstone keep was just Windrunners and Stonewards, the other orders did so at different times. However Once oaths were broken none of them had a way to check on their spren to see the effects Oathgates Elsecallers Persistent Blades The Scream They could not check immediately on their spren, but others could have. And they would have. 29 minutes ago, samsocial said: Why Windrunners cannot communicate with others? They can speak, right? Right. And the Spren could not. The Spren of a dead knight are able to communicate. Where were they? The other orders had scientist and researchers. Nobody asking where all those abandoned spren are? 1
Alcatur Posted November 5, 2021 Posted November 5, 2021 3 hours ago, samsocial said: Why there was no way to check sprens? They could have travelled to shademar using oath gates, perpendicularity, etc, if they did not break oaths same time that means there were still people travelling to shadsmar using oath gates operated by Radiant blades There was no need to check on the spren as there wasn't supposed to be any effect on them. Everyone believe than spren outside of a bond are unchanging and nobody thought that they could be affected - because there was no earlier precedence to believe something could have happened. This turned out to be not a thing, but they simply didn't expect that there could be an effect; it was a new thing presumably caused by Ba-Ado-Mishram imprisonment. 3 hours ago, samsocial said: Why Windrunners cannot communicate with others? They can speak, right? Umm, beacuse they were dead? Nearly the entire membership of Windrunners and Stonewards was killed shortly after Feverstone Keep incident. On 11/2/2021 at 4:27 PM, samsocial said: We know that Radiants broke oath and killed sprens. How come all of them did it at once? Wasn't there trial and error to check the consequences ? It wasn't a single decision but a long discussion. It is clear in the epigraphs. During the false desolation Radiants became aware of the fact that they were dangerous. My understanding is that limits on surges are artificial; without Honor being able to regulate them, the can run wild and do an Ashyn 2.0. Honor was becoming unable to continue its influence and regulation of the sourges so the Radiants and the Spren came to understanding that sourgebinding needs to end. It took some time, it wasn't a single decision, discussion is mentioned in the epigraphs. So Oathgates were sealed, Urithiru was abandoned. All that was left was to end the false desolation, which was what Melishi and his strike team did. By this point Radiants had millennia of knowledge of Nahel bond. They well may have experimented. There certainly were many Radiants who broke their oaths in the past, so based on those they were certain they knew what would happen. Except they didn't anticipate that the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram would change everything. Their former experiments stop applying because a very important factor was changed - one they were completely unaware of. So while deadeyes were not a thing before, they suddenly came to being. All Radiants were informed of the decision earlier and came to agreement that this was necessary, but the effects only became a thing after BAM was imprisoned, which probably was supposed to be the moment they would abandon their oaths.
+Oltux72 he/him Posted November 5, 2021 Posted November 5, 2021 37 minutes ago, Alcatur said: There was no need to check on the spren as there wasn't supposed to be any effect on them. Everyone believe than spren outside of a bond are unchanging and nobody thought that they could be affected - because there was no earlier precedence to believe something could have happened. This turned out to be not a thing, but they simply didn't expect that there could be an effect; it was a new thing presumably caused by Ba-Ado-Mishram imprisonment. If so, the phenomenon of dead Shardblades was new. And nobody investigated that? I am sorry, but that makes no sense. 37 minutes ago, Alcatur said: Umm, beacuse they were dead? Nearly the entire membership of Windrunners and Stonewards was killed shortly after Feverstone Keep incident. And nobody noticed that they were dead and missing? Friends, family members of other orders? Nobody noticed a large number of corpses killed by Shardblades? 37 minutes ago, Alcatur said: Honor was becoming unable to continue its influence and regulation of the sourges so the Radiants and the Spren came to understanding that sourgebinding needs to end. It took some time, it wasn't a single decision, discussion is mentioned in the epigraphs. So Oathgates were sealed, Urithiru was abandoned. All that was left was to end the false desolation, which was what Melishi and his strike team did. That is just no reason to drop your Shards. If you believe in a future unspecified danger from Surgebinders, all you need to do is stop forming new bonds. Done. Old age will solve the issue. 1
Frustration Posted November 5, 2021 Posted November 5, 2021 6 hours ago, samsocial said: Why there was no way to check sprens? They could have travelled to shademar using oath gates, perpendicularity, etc, if they did not break oaths same time that means there were still people travelling to shadsmar using oath gates operated by Radiant blades Why Windrunners cannot communicate with others? They can speak, right? The Sibling closed off travle to the CR via oathgates They had no way to make a perpendicualrity The other orders were too far away to be communicated with. 5 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Oathgates Locked 5 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Elsecallers Based of Feverstone keep every member of an order broke oaths at the same time 5 hours ago, Oltux72 said: Persistent Blades Given none of the ones at Feverstone keep noticed, that was the intended result. 5 hours ago, Oltux72 said: The Scream Pain was excpected 1
+sugjesstive Posted November 5, 2021 Posted November 5, 2021 7 hours ago, samsocial said: Why there was no way to check sprens? They could have travelled to shademar using oath gates, perpendicularity, etc, if they did not break oaths same time that means there were still people travelling to shadsmar using oath gates operated by Radiant blades Why Windrunners cannot communicate with others? They can speak, right? Your exact issue regarding all the oaths being broken at the same time was discussed in one of the Shardcast episodes from this year... though I'm not sure which one because I binge them all out of order. Definitely an episode that included Ian and Grace. Some of this inability to communicate might have been affected by Ba-Ado-Mishim's binding, which may have occurred around the same time. Many (all?) Radiants summoned their spren as Blades before breaking their oaths. They didn't know it at the time (perhaps due to BaM's binding), but this would turn their spren into deadeyes in Shadesmar, making them all unable to communicate what was happening as others continued to lay down their Blades and break their oaths. This inability to communicate helps explain why NO Radiant was warned about what would really happen to their spren. The Radiants knew that breaking their oaths would destroy their bond, but they all figured the spren would go back to Shadesmar. Instead, they were trapped in the Physical realm as Blades, and turned to Deadeyes in the Cognitive realm. Perpendicularities are unique to Bondsmiths, no? Perhaps there were not many Bondsmiths at the time? And honestly... If there were... WHAT WERE THEY DOING? I'd like some answers lol. I don't have a neat answer about the Oathgates. Without Blades, I don't think the Gates would function, or allow travel into Shadesmar... But this would necessitate every single Radiant breaking their oath prior to attempting to use an Oathgate. I think there are a few important factors about the Recreance that we still don't know. "All the Radiants broke their oaths at the same time" could refer to a process that actually took weeks, and not the events of a single day. But it's left intentionally rather vague.
Frustration Posted November 5, 2021 Posted November 5, 2021 1 hour ago, sugjesstive said: Perpendicularities are unique to Bondsmiths, no? Perhaps there were not many Bondsmiths at the time? Dalinar was the first Bondsmith, except maybe Ishar to use a perpendicularity, and Melishi lost his bond before the recreance, so there weren't any. 1 hour ago, sugjesstive said: I don't have a neat answer about the Oathgates. Without Blades, I don't think the Gates would function, or allow travel into Shadesmar... But this would necessitate every single Radiant breaking their oath prior to attempting to use an Oathgate. The Sibling forbade CR travel using Oathgates.
Tglassy Posted November 5, 2021 Posted November 5, 2021 On 11/2/2021 at 4:13 PM, Tglassy said: It was likely a group discussion/decision between the Radiants and their Soren, all coming to the same conclusion due to information we just don’t have right now. 9 hours ago, Oltux72 said: No. I am sorry, but you have explained why they all did the same thing. But you have to explain why they did the same thing at the same time. That's rather abrupt of you, to just dismiss me like that. No? I'm sorry, but YES. There is very much information we don't have right now, and they very much likely chose to do it all at the same after a discussion. They had a reason, and that reason is based on information we don't yet have. But we DO know it was a sacrifice. The Spren CHOSE to have the bonds broken, and not only that, they CHOSE to have the bonds broken WHILE they were Shardblades, making them stick as shardblades. Also, the Radiants summoned their blades and plate before breaking their oaths. Spren that are summoned as blades are not in Shadesmar at all. So none of the Deadeye Spren would have manifested in Shadesmar until generations later, when they discovered how to bond the shardblades and dismiss them. THEN the spren in Shadesmar would have started seeing deadeyes. Before then, not only were the Oathgates not usable anymore because there were no living Shardblades, but travel to Shadesmar was banned. As far as the Radiants knew, their Spren were now just blades and plate, and as far as the Spren in Shadesmar knew, the Radiant Spren just disappeared a long time ago when they first made their bonds and never showed up again. My theory is that when some radiants initially broke their bonds at various times, and it hurt the Spren, but didn't kill them. However, perhaps they found that if the Spren were manifested as Blades, and lessor spren as Plate, they would persist in the Physical Realm that way, but that they weren't "dead". This way, the Spren couldn't bond new Radiants, but the people would have weapons to fight the enemy. It was the binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram that actually caused them to become Deadeyes. I think they broke the bonds while their spren were Shardblades because they wanted to get rid of Surgebinding, but leave weapons for the common person to use against the Voidbringers (their term), in case the Desolations happened again. They knew they were the best chance the people had, but SOMETHING was happening, or going to happen, or they had access to some kind of information that we don't have yet, that made them all believe that they had to stop Surgebinding NOW. After a convo with their Spren, the Spren agreed to sever the bond, but remain in the Physical Realm as blades and plate, just in case. I find it very likely that Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured around this time, and maybe something to do with its capture led them to this decision. Perhaps this kind of severing caused pain to the spren who'd done it before Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture, but not 'death'. Only, this time, they all died, so to speak, because now Ba-Ado-Mishram was captured. They'd have no way to talk to the spren. The Spren in Shadesmar probably didn't even know what was happening, and had no way to talk to the Blades, until later, when people started bonding and dismissing them. THEN Deadeyes showed up, and the Spren in Shadesmar began to piece together what happened . In short, there is information we just don't have yet.
+Oltux72 he/him Posted November 5, 2021 Posted November 5, 2021 7 hours ago, Frustration said: The Sibling closed off travle to the CR via oathgates They had no way to make a perpendicualrity The other orders were too far away to be communicated with. Locked Cultivation's was still open. 7 hours ago, Frustration said: Based of Feverstone keep every member of an order broke oaths at the same time And none of the others checked? We have to make up our collective minds. Did they do it simultaneously or not? If they did it simultaneously then we need to explain that and need to discard any theories about being horrified about the Singers' fate or fear for the future. Or they did not, then we have to do some very difficult explaning about why nobody suspected something was wrong with the deadeyes. 4 hours ago, Tglassy said: That's rather abrupt of you, to just dismiss me like that. No? I'm sorry, but YES. There is very much information we don't have right now, and they very much likely chose to do it all at the same after a discussion. They had a reason, and that reason is based on information we don't yet have. Then you have to discard theories about Honor's death. We can keep either as a working hypothesis, but they are contradictory assumptions. 4 hours ago, Tglassy said: But we DO know it was a sacrifice. The Spren CHOSE to have the bonds broken, and not only that, they CHOSE to have the bonds broken WHILE they were Shardblades, making them stick as shardblades. I am afraid that is untenable, as dead Shardblades were unknown. You'd have to assume that almost no Radiant before ever broke his oaths while having a materialized Blade for them to not know what to expect. 4 hours ago, Tglassy said: As far as the Radiants knew, their Spren were now just blades and plate, and as far as the Spren in Shadesmar knew, the Radiant Spren just disappeared a long time ago when they first made their bonds and never showed up again. But they should have shown up.
Frustration Posted November 5, 2021 Posted November 5, 2021 37 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: Cultivation's was still open. Far from any Oathgate, and Windrunner were the first to break their oaths. 38 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: And none of the others checked? This assumes they thought to check, why would they?
Tglassy Posted November 6, 2021 Posted November 6, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Oltux72 said: Then you have to discard theories about Honor's death. We can keep either as a working hypothesis, but they are contradictory assumptions. I don't understand why. I said "They have information we don't yet", and you say "Well that's a theory." No. They obviously had information we don't have yet. How is this contradictory to Honor's Death? 1 hour ago, Oltux72 said: I am afraid that is untenable, as dead Shardblades were unknown. You'd have to assume that almost no Radiant before ever broke his oaths while having a materialized Blade for them to not know what to expect. How does this logically follow? Did you even read the rest of my post? I literally said "They likely had instances where someone broke their oath before while the spren was a Shardblade, and perhaps that caused them to stick in that form." What other purpose would summoning them as Shardblades before breaking the oaths have, other than to provide shardblades for people? Same with Plate. There's no reason for them to go up to Feverstone Keep and leave their weapons for people to gather other than because they knew they'd be left behind for people to use. They must have known they'd stay that way. 1 hour ago, Oltux72 said: But they should have shown up. Why? They were blades. When Deadeyes are summoned as Blades, they don't manifest in Shadesmar. In fact, when Spren are bonded to Radiants, they don't manifest in Shadesmar. So they wouldn't have been to shadesmar since before they bonded Radiants, and since they likely never stopped bonding radiants, just bonding new ones every time the old one died, they likely hadn't been back to shadesmar for a millennia, or at least not with any regularity. Edited November 6, 2021 by Tglassy
+Oltux72 he/him Posted November 6, 2021 Posted November 6, 2021 9 hours ago, Tglassy said: I don't understand why. I said "They have information we don't yet", and you say "Well that's a theory." No. They obviously had information we don't have yet. How is this contradictory to Honor's Death? Sorry about being unclear. I will try to be extremely precise. We have two related, but not identical proposals They knew stuff abot the consequences of Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture that we do not know This information led them to break their oaths #1 is a known fact. #2 is a hypothesis, strictly speaking. There are other hypotheses about the cause of the Recreance. Moral revulsion, fear of Surgebinding ... At some time we have to make up our minds and look at the implications and consequences of these hypotheses, as they are mutually exclusive. 9 hours ago, Tglassy said: How does this logically follow? Did you even read the rest of my post? I literally said "They likely had instances where someone broke their oath before while the spren was a Shardblade, and perhaps that caused them to stick in that form." If that were true Rosharans would have older Shardblades predating the Recreance. There is no evidence of that. Every Blade is a deadeye. And there is no historical evidence for Blades outside the Knights Radiant and the Heralds before the Recreance. And it would make those Windrunners who just dropped a fortune in deadly weapons in front of men trained to kill into raving idiots and irresponsible fools. 9 hours ago, Tglassy said: What other purpose would summoning them as Shardblades before breaking the oaths have, other than to provide shardblades for people? To hold someone who is a dear friend and a part of your soul one last time the symbolism of dropping your Shards makes it easier to follow through peer pressure going down with your head held high 9 hours ago, Tglassy said: Why? They were blades. When Deadeyes are summoned as Blades, they don't manifest in Shadesmar. In fact, when Spren are bonded to Radiants, they don't manifest in Shadesmar. So they wouldn't have been to shadesmar since before they bonded Radiants, and since they likely never stopped bonding radiants, just bonding new ones every time the old one died, they likely hadn't been back to shadesmar for a millennia, or at least not with any regularity. Because you usually investigate if a significant part of your population vanishes. 10 hours ago, Frustration said: This assumes they thought to check, why would they? Well they were friends and respected colleagues. They just went through something deeply traumatic. Possibly they decided that something was to be achieved by dropping the Shards. In that case you'd do quality control. They were in an unprecedented situation. You don't just do something utterly novel and not look at the consequences. You also kind of care about the people you have been on the battle field together with. That leads up to at least checking how they are doing.
ScadrianTank he/him Posted November 6, 2021 Posted November 6, 2021 I wanted to write a long response because this topic confused me for a long time. But after RoW - specifically reading the Sibling and other spren throw around contradictory information - I'd rather just wait for book 5. Too much happened in a space of a few days, possibly even a single day, and yet it feels like we're still missing critical information. Did the Radiants break their oaths or did their spren just end the bond as the Sibling did? If all orders broke their oaths, whatever form it took, on the same day and Windrunners were among the first, how did the rest of the Orders get the communication? Were there no Radiants in seclusion or in Shadesmar who just didn't get the memo? It seems too convenient but, knowing Brandon, it all makes sense, somehow. 1
samsocial Posted November 7, 2021 Author Posted November 7, 2021 On 5/11/2021 at 0:22 PM, Alcatur said: There certainly were many Radiants who broke their oaths in the past, Where are sprens of these "oath-breaker-but-spren-saver" radiants? On 5/11/2021 at 0:22 PM, Alcatur said: Nearly the entire membership of Windrunners and Stonewards was killed shortly after Feverstone Keep incident. Nearly ? You yourself doesn't seem sure how many died. Nearly implies that someone survived. What did they do? Nothing? Was that honorable for a (former) radiant?
samsocial Posted November 7, 2021 Author Posted November 7, 2021 On 5/11/2021 at 6:26 PM, Frustration said: The Sibling forbade CR travel using Oathgates. There are many oathgates. Sibling had control on only one at Uritheru. Why can't they be used? Also, how come Shalan was able to open one at the battle of Narak?
Frustration Posted November 7, 2021 Posted November 7, 2021 27 minutes ago, samsocial said: There are many oathgates. Sibling had control on only one at Uritheru. Why can't they be used? Also, how come Shalan was able to open one at the battle of Narak? She was able to use their transport between Physical realm locations, Not between the CR and the Physical. And the Sibling was able to command the Oathgate at Theylanah, so even the ones away from Urithiru were subject to them.
samsocial Posted November 7, 2021 Author Posted November 7, 2021 30 minutes ago, Frustration said: And the Sibling was able to command the Oathgate at Theylanah, so even the ones away from Urithiru were subject to them. Lol, what command did she execute? Even Fuzed passed through the gate and she did nothing.
Frustration Posted November 8, 2021 Posted November 8, 2021 14 minutes ago, samsocial said: Lol, what command did she execute? Even Fuzed passed through the gate and she did nothing. The Fused did not pass through the Oathgate, Odium pulled Nergaoul through, but the Fused stayed on one side or the other.
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