Shaukan-son-Hasweth he/him Posted October 25, 2021 Posted October 25, 2021 We know that after SH Kelsier tried to aquire a new body. A physical link. And we know that by the time of BoM he managed to do so. But I wanted to ask the question on what would have happend to kelsier if he hadn't managed to do so. What if he had stayed a cognitive shadow. How would the time spent as purely a cognitve entety have affected him. I find this to be extremely interesting in this specific case because he is not just some random person whos family and freinds will remember, but who will be forgotten a few generations down the line. Upon his death Kelsier made himself into a figure of mythology. People follow religions that worship him and legends constantly talk about him. I feel like over time, without a body Kelsier would have basically become the "survivor" spren. Loosing most of his deepest inner personal thoughts and core personality and conflicts and becoming an embpdyment of the peoples perception of the survivor deity. The only thing we have that is comparable are the heralds. They are also relvent cultural figures and cognitive shadows. But after Aharietiam they all seem to have phisical bodies. Even Kalak despite him chilling in the cogitive realm. In general what do you think happens to people that just stay cognitve shadows in the cognitve realm. Do they basically stay the same developing like a funktionally immortal person in the phisical realm would? Or do you think they are subjects to the thoughts and perceptions of other people like spren and other cognitve enteties are? Do you think it makes a diffrence if nobody else remembers the shadow after some time, or if they have a "following" of people who still think about them?
Quantus he/him Posted October 25, 2021 Posted October 25, 2021 A Cognitive Shadow without a Body would need a constant supply of Investiture to maintain the existence. So I think his existence would become far more characterized by that constant need. "Survivor" would then become a little sour, more about endlessly post-poning the Beyond than about resisting the hazards of the world or however you see Survivorism. I dont think they are subject to the perception whims of the population the way abstract Spren are (and Im not sure that trait is even shared with the more similar Seons, to be honest). That appears to be to have more to do with the far more interconnected Investiture ecosystem of Roshar, at least to me. The Nightwatcher, for example, was made intentionally to lack that influence. I do think he would develop some various forms of mental health issues like any overly long-lived creatures (Heralds, Returned, Elantrians, etc). 2
Serack he/him Posted October 25, 2021 Posted October 25, 2021 (edited) @Quantus *wave* You've got me thinking that in such a state, CS Kelsier might find a way to draw some kind of sustenance from mortals in the physical realm exhibiting a particular level of survival tenacity, kind of like how Rosharan spren seem to be doing for their respective aspects. Edited October 25, 2021 by Serack
Quantus he/him Posted October 25, 2021 Posted October 25, 2021 14 minutes ago, Serack said: @Quantus *wave* Friend! How ya been? 14 minutes ago, Serack said: You've got me thinking that in such a state, CS Kelsier might find a way to draw some kind of sustenance from mortals in the physical realm exhibiting a particular level of survival tenacity, kind of like how Rosharan spren seem to be doing for their respective aspects. He might be able to figure out a way with enough Connection Manipulation. He has the benefit of being a Sliver, so he should understand the realms better than most. And we know he does have access to Sel and it's magical Programming Languages, which probably have the most versatility and potential to customize that sort of Connection sufficiently. Also Im willing to bet Awakening could do it (based on the Ruin in Nightblood, whole other topic), you could make a Breath affect a purely cognitive entity (they might require a physical form to Invest?) Fwiw I dont think that sort of Connection would be a natural process on Scadrial, but then normally people dont become the sole focus of a dominant religion on the planet. That's the sort of thing that could have a significant effect on a planets Cognitive Realm, which in turn is what I think it would take to plug yourself into such a broad abstract concept for real power. On Roshar I would imagine the process being that either he (d)evolves into a spren that starts to take on those Connections through a combination of Choices, Self-Image, and the prevalence of Bonds that love to form on Roshar. Or else he'd attract and Bond some sort of primal Survivorspren and piggy-back the required Connections that way. Or he bribes a Bondsmith...
spaidapig he/him Posted October 26, 2021 Posted October 26, 2021 I think the time, that Kelsier is a CS is too short, to have a "turn into a spren" effect on him. A lot of the Fused, even though they get more ans more crazy, are not sprenlike, ans they didn't have a physical body for over 4500 year. And they have been killed over and over before, what progresses the crazyness more than just being alive. If he turned into a Spren, I don't think it would be a/the Survival Spren, because he wasn't made into a CS with the intent/command to survive, but by the overwhelming amount of Investiture in the WoA. From the short time Kelsier held the Shard of Preservation, we know that his personality doesn't align well with Preservation, so the time in the Well did not leave a huge mark on him. 23 hours ago, Shaukan-son-Hasweth said: In general what do you think happens to people that just stay cognitve shadows in the cognitve realm. Do they basically stay the same developing like a funktionally immortal person in the phisical realm would? Or do you think they are subjects to the thoughts and perceptions of other people like spren and other cognitve enteties are? I think in term of mechanics, they should behave like Spren, I'm thinking of sentient Spren like the Radiant Spren. The different types of Spren have own cultures and personalities, etc. so that should work for anyone who is a cognitive entity. Imho, the main difference between a CS with and one without physical body is their power level. Because of their missing connection the PR their lack a huge portion of power, like Kelsier in the fight against Ruin. 1
Frustration Posted October 26, 2021 Posted October 26, 2021 CS don't stop being CS just because they get a body, for all we know there are almost no mechanical differences between the two. 1
StanLemon Posted October 26, 2021 Posted October 26, 2021 On 10/25/2021 at 7:46 AM, Quantus said: A Cognitive Shadow without a Body would need a constant supply of Investiture to maintain the existence. So I think his existence would become far more characterized by that constant need. "Survivor" would then become a little sour, more about endlessly post-poning the Beyond than about resisting the hazards of the world or however you see Survivorism. I don't think this applied to Slivers, he spent months as a Cognitive Shadow without taking in Investiture after bonding with Preservation's power from the Well and his own thoughts after giving up Preservation are that he won't go to the Beyond unless he chooses to or is damaged too severely 1
Morningtide she/her Posted November 11, 2021 Posted November 11, 2021 I don't see Kelsier turning into a spren as a viable option. It seems to me that he is stubborn enough to find some sort of purpose, even without a body. Seems like him to just go wandering off the the cognitive realm of Threnody and finding a way to become Ambition or something. Basically, Kelsier is too persistent to be reduced into just a basic intent without any semblance of sentience. (haha semblance of sentience )
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