Is Feruchemy overpowered?

[Trusk'our]

Feruchemy. With this magic system, you can store attributes in pieces of mundane metal, then retrieve them latter, frequently increasing that attribute to absolutely insane amounts. This seems a little overpowered to me honestly (though that only makes it even more awesome); as a feruchemist, why not just store some attributes for a few hours daily, then when you get into a fight with some mistborn or fused, you can just steelrun up to them and use pewter to rip them in half?! Plus, you can regenerate, grow insanely strong, and increase your weight to that of a dump truck.

If there is a good reason that a full feruchemist is not OP if they put their mind up to it (ESPESCIALLY with steel), I'd be interested in knowing.

[WandererNearby]

Three reasons. First, there a law of diminishing returns. So, one hour at half strength theoretically gives one hour at double strength or a half hour at quadruple strength. However, I believe it would actually give slightly less than a half hour. As you move up in the multipliers, this effect increases. Brandon has said that this effect would have prevented the Lord Ruler from being truly immortal as eventually it would prevent him from being young. Second, while they are storing, they're pretty weak. So, you could attack them while they're charging up their metal minds. Third, you can always sneak up on them and kill them that way. A bullet to brain stem then a bunch of thugs swarming them to strip them of their metal minds while also stabbing them a bunch of different ways would probably work well. So would (ROW spoilers):

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The Pursuer's approach to killing Radiants at the beginning. It would strip of their healing ability quickly and prevent them retaliating. 

 

[Zapata]

17 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

If there is a good reason that a full feruchemist is not OP if they put their mind up to it (ESPESCIALLY with steel), I'd be interested in knowing.

Feruchemy is certainly OP, the reasons we don't think of it that way is because it's not as flashy as allomancy or surgebinding, and also that the Full Feruchemists we see do not use it to its full potential (imo). In Era 1, many metals simply were not known and therefore could not be used as metalminds, as well as the fact that Terris Keepers had to be careful to not be caught using feruchemy by the Final Empire. Beyond that, the most efficient way to store an attribute would be to use that attribute naturally while storing, i.e. storing speed while going for a jog, or storing health while injured. But either way, the Feruchemist povs we get do not show them constantly storing anything (except Wax, who is always at 75% weight and therefore always storing weight). But Feruchemy is pretty OP, just underutilized.

[Trusk'our]

12 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

Feruchemy is certainly OP, the reasons we don't think of it that way is because it's not as flashy as allomancy or surgebinding, and also that the Full Feruchemists we see do not use it to its full potential (imo). In Era 1, many metals simply were not known and therefore could not be used as metalminds, as well as the fact that Terris Keepers had to be careful to not be caught using feruchemy by the Final Empire. Beyond that, the most efficient way to store an attribute would be to use that attribute naturally while storing, i.e. storing speed while going for a jog, or storing health while injured. But either way, the Feruchemist povs we get do not show them constantly storing anything (except Wax, who is always at 75% weight and therefore always storing weight). But Feruchemy is pretty OP, just underutilized.

True. I also think that feruchemy is under used in terms of it's full potential. I don't know that storing speed while jogging or health while being injured allows you to store more efficiently though.

25 minutes ago, DougTheRug said:

Three reasons. First, there a law of diminishing returns. So, one hour at half strength theoretically gives one hour at double strength or a half hour at quadruple strength. However, I believe it would actually give slightly less than a half hour. As you move up in the multipliers, this effect increases. Brandon has said that this effect would have prevented the Lord Ruler from being truly immortal as eventually it would prevent him from being young. Second, while they are storing, they're pretty weak. So, you could attack them while they're charging up their metal minds. Third, you can always sneak up on them and kill them that way. A bullet to brain stem then a bunch of thugs swarming them to strip them of their metal minds while also stabbing them a bunch of different ways would probably work well. So would (ROW spoilers):

 

These are good points. The thing is, it's pretty difficult to reach  a point at which a feruchemist couldn't store more power, and thus gain more potential stores. Sneaking would definitely be a good way to handle it, but if they come to attack your rather than the other way around, I don't know that this is an effective strategy. 

[Quantus]

6 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

True. I also think that feruchemy is under used in terms of it's full potential. I don't know that storing speed while jogging or health while being injured allows you to store more efficiently though.

It doesnt, it just makes you struggle more while you are doing those things, so you jog and heal slower and with more difficulty.

6 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

These are good points. The thing is, it's pretty difficult to reach  a point at which a feruchemist couldn't store more power, and thus gain more potential stores. Sneaking would definitely be a good way to handle it, but if they come to attack your rather than the other way around, I don't know that this is an effective strategy. 

Feruchemy is naturally limited by how much you can store at any given time, and how detrimental that is.  In most cases you would have to store up for a very long time (suffering the whole time) to get the dramatic bursts of power.  There are a few exceptions that can be more easily stored like Rest (which is the only one you can store while asleep).  Weight is easy to store (beneficial even) but typically not as useful as it is for Wax because it doesnt make you all that more durable and you need a way to exert the force (like steelpushing).  Most of the others would suck to store fully (storing Gold fully could literally kill you in time) so you would only be able to pull off the big trick Once before you needed weeks of recovery time.  

Compounding, on the other hand, can get pretty ridiculous, especially with an actual Fullborn.  Thank gods they are normally impossible.  

[Dunkum]

6 hours ago, DougTheRug said:

So, one hour at half strength theoretically gives one hour at double strength or a half hour at quadruple strength.

point of clarification: one hour at 1/2 strength would let you do 1 hour at 1.5 strength later, not 2x strength. the half hour would be at 2x strength and you'd only be able to do 4x strength for 15 minutes.  in fact, less, for precisely the reason you said.

[HSuperLee]

6 hours ago, Quantus said:

Compounding, on the other hand, can get pretty ridiculous, especially with an actual Fullborn.  Thank gods they are normally impossible.  

Alright, everyone, say it with me: Fullborn are the Kryptonians of the Cosmere.

Alright, now that that is out of the way, yes, feruchemy is overpowered, but only in the sense that it has no upper limit that we've seen. That said, I'm part of the rare few that genuinely believes that there is an upper limit to feruchemy and that its not much beyond what we saw the Bands of Mourning do, specifically when Marasai started leaking mist. One of the biggest limits seems to be that we've seen a feruchemist start pulling out fraction of a second enhancements, which leads me to believe it might not be possible. It seems that there may be a delay between when a feruchemist starts tapping and when they reach full tap, most notably seen in pewterminds where they don't instantly muscle up, but apparently it takes a second, which means a feruchemist probably can't do something like compress years worth of weight into a seconds worth of mountain cracking strength, which then puts another upper limit on their max power due to their compression being limited. None of this is to say that feruchemists aren't overpowered, just that they do possess actual and rather tangible limits. That said, they're still much less limited than most other magics of the Cosmere, especially with them not being dependent on any expendable external resource, which most other Cosmere magics are.

Edited October 20, 2021 by HSuperLee

[Quantus]

19 minutes ago, HSuperLee said:

Alright, everyone, say it with me: Fullborn are the Kryptonians of the Cosmere.

Alright, now that that is out of the way, yes, feruchemy is overpowered, but only in the sense that it has no upper limit that we've seen. That said, I'm part of the rare few that genuinely believes that there is an upper limit to feruchemy and that its not much beyond what we saw the Bands of Mourning do, specifically when Marasai started leaking mist. One of the biggest limits seems to be that we've seen a feruchemist start pulling out fraction of a second enhancements, which leads me to believe it might not be possible. It seems that there may be a delay between when a feruchemist starts tapping and when they reach full tap, most notably seen in pewterminds where they don't instantly muscle up, but apparently it takes a second, which means a feruchemist probably can't do something like compress years worth of weight into a seconds worth of mountain cracking strength, which then puts another upper limit on their max power due to their compression being limited. None of this is to say that feruchemists aren't overpowered, just that they do possess actual and rather tangible limits. That said, they're still much less limited than most other magics of the Cosmere, especially with them not being dependent on any expendable external resource, which most other Cosmere magics are.

First off, that is an AWESOME profile icon!  Look to the Stars, for Hope Burns Bright!

Past that, it's a good point that there is a delay/limit to the engagement of Tapping a metalmind, but I think that barrier can be easily overcome with Temporal Allomancy and Mental Speed; either it's the result of Intent taking time to crystalize enough for the effect, in which case Mental Speed would shorten the gap, or else it's more "real" and they can pulse some Temporal Allomancy to give themselves all the subjective time needed to engage a suit of internal powers. 

Pewter specifically we know does have upper limit in that you will gain muscle bulk until you lose all range of motion and are a giant lump of meat, but that somewhat unique.  

I think it was Alloy of Law where we saw Wax blow years of weight in one blast, but without Allomancy to leverage that weight all a normal ferring could do is break what they are standing on, but they'd still smear their bones against the rock if they tried to punch with that alone. 

I also just found a WOB that says that Feruchemical Speed would increase the base rate that you Burn metals.  

Full are not the only "Overpowered" magic type, at least in a Tournament Battle Vs. sort of setting.  Radiants get some of the best base-package, even before individual surges come into play. And a mature Elantrian who's gotten Dor off-world with some Connection and is given time to Write a proper AonDor program can do just about anything conceivable, including mimicking almost any other ability known (in theory).  But the combination of Physical and Mental Speed, Temporal Allomancy, Gold Compounding and the precognitive advantages of Atium and Electrum, make a direct confrontation with a Fullborn all but impossible unless you can get the element of Surprise. At least until we get some more concrete upper limits of these things.  Like how we know justs by WOB that they cant go full Speed Force, they still have to deal with wind resistance and things like that (even though Id say BoM sort of broke that limit already...)

[StanLemon]

On 10/20/2021 at 3:23 PM, Quantus said:

Like how we know justs by WOB that they cant go full Speed Force, they still have to deal with wind resistance and things like that (even though Id say BoM sort of broke that limit already...)

Yeah, Marasi was full on making a vacuum, that should have ripped the skin off her hand....

As people have pointed out, Feruchemy does have real tangible limits. In a fight with plenty of each trait to spare, a Feruchemist is very much OP. Even a 4th Ideal Radiant would likely be put on the defensive against the kind of speed and strength a Full Feruchemist could bring to the table. But it takes a long time to store, best shown with Wax who was constantly storing his weight for years in his Ironminds completely drained them with one big Push. Sure it leveled a building, but it highlights just how long it takes to store traits.

This is why as Quantus pointed out, Compounders are stupidly broken. They can effectively bypass the storing limit. Miles was constantly tapping enough health to heal his wounds before he even finished being hurt, for example.

Lastly, it's limited to just the user. A Radiant with mastery of their Surges, or an Elantrian who has had enough time to prep can do things on a bigger scale and with much more flexibility.

As to the tapping speed limit that HSuperLee brought up. This does appear to be true, but I think it may be more of a user error than a true limit. Marasi who knows very little about using Feruchemy went from normal speed to faster than the speed of sound practically instantly. And as I said higher up, Miles was healing faster than he could even be hurt.