Ishar's, Jezrien's and Taln's Honorblade [RoW spoilers]

[Shinwarrior]

I recently saw a theory about Szeth and his oathstone. He mentioned in the books that there is nothing special about an oathstone, but follows it only out of a sense of honor. However, after Szeth see's Ishar with the bondsmith honorblade he gets upsets knowing that something happened to his father who held the blade before. Is there a chance that Szeth was honor bound as well as bound to his oathstone by something done from the bondsmith honorblade? The more I think about the Shin elders and shamans the less I think they're doing honorable stuff.  

 

Second, Taln's Honorblade. I know that it is unaccounted for at the present time. I found an old theory here about Hoid being the one who has Taln's honorblade and it does make alot of sense. 

My personal theory is that the Shin Stone Shamans had come and collected it. I run into a bit of a contradiction there though because I thought they were holding the blades until the heralds returned. (Nale reclaiming his blade, and Ishar reclamining his as well). So why would they come and take it from Taln? 

 

Anyway, my last point is has to do with Szeth and Jezrien's honorblade. It's assumed that if he dies the stone shaman's will come and collect his fallen honorblade. No matter which way you look at it, he does end up dying at the end of WoR and his honorblade is left for Kaladin who reclaims it. Eventually the blade works it's way to find Moash. All of this happens with the Stone Shamans not even trying to recover a priceless object. What's up with that? That's a long time to be too busy to even try. 

 

These thoughts are a little all over the place but it has me thinking that the Shin leaders are not very good people. My initial response to the Shin made me think of them as an honorable people who stick to their land and glorify growing more than killing. When Szeth made an oath to bring retribution to the Shin elders I was leery because it felt a little too much like petty revenge. However, looking a little deeper, I think it may be a necessity that Szeth go and “... cleanse the Shin of their false leaders". 

 

Anyway, any thoughts on this? 

 

 

 

[Frustration he/him]

59 minutes ago, Shinwarrior said:

My personal theory is that the Shin Stone Shamans had come and collected it. I run into a bit of a contradiction there though because I thought they were holding the blades until the heralds returned. (Nale reclaiming his blade, and Ishar reclamining his as well). So why would they come and take it from Taln? 

They weren't Szeth tells us that the Shin had no intention of returning the blades

59 minutes ago, Shinwarrior said:

Anyway, my last point is has to do with Szeth and Jezrien's honorblade. It's assumed that if he dies the stone shaman's will come and collect his fallen honorblade. No matter which way you look at it, he does end up dying at the end of WoR and his honorblade is left for Kaladin who reclaims it. Eventually the blade works it's way to find Moash. All of this happens with the Stone Shamans not even trying to recover a priceless object. What's up with that? That's a long time to be too busy to even try. 

He didn't die though

[Shinwarrior]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

He didn't die though

I feel a little childish saying this... but yeah he did. 

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, Shinwarrior said:

I feel a little childish saying this... but yeah he did. 

That's like saying someone died when their heart stopped, he hadn't reached brain death yet and was resesitated.

You don't get a death certificate for that.

[Shinwarrior]

23 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That's like saying someone died when their heart stopped, he hadn't reached brain death yet and was resesitated.

You don't get a death certificate for that.

Sorry if I sounded petty haha, because I know where you're coming from, but I'm torn on that. I'm not sure where Szeth's death lands on a scale ranging from near death experience to being literally brought back from the beyond. I totally get that it feels like he was in a state of dying and Nale's fabrial brought him back much as a defibrillator might here on earth. But I don't think Nale found him right as he died. I'm assuming his cognitive self hung around a little bit before going into the beyond because of how much investiture he normally used with Jezriens honorblade. Nale comes upon his dead body and staples his cognitive self back to his body. I can also see Szeth's death status changing depending on the ending of WoR. But I'd give a death certificate to anybody that got their spine sliced with a shardblade no questions asked. Perhaps dying in a high storm changes things.  

[Frustration he/him]

58 minutes ago, Shinwarrior said:

Sorry if I sounded petty haha, because I know where you're coming from, but I'm torn on that. I'm not sure where Szeth's death lands on a scale ranging from near death experience to being literally brought back from the beyond. I totally get that it feels like he was in a state of dying and Nale's fabrial brought him back much as a defibrillator might here on earth. But I don't think Nale found him right as he died. I'm assuming his cognitive self hung around a little bit before going into the beyond because of how much investiture he normally used with Jezriens honorblade. Nale comes upon his dead body and staples his cognitive self back to his body. I can also see Szeth's death status changing depending on the ending of WoR. But I'd give a death certificate to anybody that got their spine sliced with a shardblade no questions asked. Perhaps dying in a high storm changes things.  

Oh the ending change?

Cannonically he just fell.

Spoiler

The__Good__Doctor

Hi Brandon! I wanted to talk about the revised ending of Words of Radiance.

So, it looks like Kaladin won't be actually delivering the killing blow to Szeth any more. I think that Kaladin was entirely justified in doing this, since it was a fight to the death, and Kaladin was protecting not only Dalinar but his entire squad below. Kaladin even seems surprised when he lands the blow, expecting Szeth to block it like he had been doing the entire fight. The killing was not done in vengeance or with malice, unlike what Adolin does later. Having the storm kill Szeth seems like an anti-climatic way to end the scene, since it takes away Szeth's decision to die by the sword, and means we no longer have an example of why the spren Shardblades don't immediately kill people.

Brandon Sanderson

I woud be fine having him do it, though I think killing a foe who has given up was against this thematic plot. But what pushed me over the edge to change was the sense that I was pulling too many fast ones on the reader with people coming back to life. I wanted it clear to readers that Szeth was not dead, so this scene wasn't a fake out, which would weaken Jasnah's arrival later.

Dancingedge

Um, Mr. Sanderson, I don't mean to be disrespectful as you probably have the scene better in your head than I do but how is a man without Stormlight falling from a very large hight, while in the middle of two Highstorms coliding and throwing entire platoos in the air expected to survive? Maybe I don't have the right persective on this given that I saw both Jasnah (the body disapearing is just as much a give away as it never being shown in my book) and Syl (Pattern outright said Sprens can be revived) coming but unless you severly change the fight scene I don't see how being stabbed actually matters for Szeth survival chances.

Brandon Sanderson

The idea is that the reader didn't see him die, so there's a psychological trigger--one that says "Ah, I didn't see a body. He's probably not dead."

Yes, Szeth totally died from that fall--just as the young man that Lift revived had died from what he suffered. We know that Stormlight can fix the body and bring back the dead, so long as very little time has passed.

The import of the tweak to me is allowing some question in the reader's mind, so that the return is not a betrayal.

The__Good__Doctor

That is a lot more understandable. Having too many reveals at the end could be problematic. I agree that Jasnah coming back felt like pulling a fast one right at the end. However, I think the suprise of Szeth coming back was really well done, especially with the reveal of Nin (Nale, Nalan? This dude is so old he has three names!) at the very end with his special sword friend. I feel like that was the real zinger that should have closed the book.

I was a little underwhelmed with Jasnah coming back, not because I dislike her, but because I thought she was well and truly dead. She died so early in the book that I was completely accepting of her death by the end, and her coming back in a 'gotcha' moment felt a little hollow. Perhaps this could have happened about a hundred pages into the next book? I don't know the entire story like you do, of course, but as a reader it felt like Szeth and his rebirth should have been the final closing image.

Brandon Sanderson

This all came about, if you're curious, during the detailed plotting of the second book. Originally, the outline did not call for Jasnah to leave, but I was having real trouble getting Shallan into a place--emotionally and experience-wise--where she could do the things she needed to do while Jasnah was around. I determined that Jasnah needed to pull a Gandalf, and let her ward alone for a while, and I'm glad I did it--the book is much, much stronger for it. However, the side effects of the last-minute change in the plot required Jasnah's reappearance, which sent a few waves through the book. (Szeth's death and survival being the main one.)

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 8, 2015)

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

Oh the ending change?

Cannonically he just fell.

 

From that very WoB:

Quote

Yes, Szeth totally died from that fall--just as the young man that Lift revived had died from what he suffered. We know that Stormlight can fix the body and bring back the dead, so long as very little time has passed.

[Frustration he/him]

7 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

From that very WoB:

Died is used verry losely there.

I wouldn't consider it death until the CS passes inot the Beyond personally

[Honorless he/him]

Brandon has confirmed it wasn't Hoid who made the switch

Quote

Questioner 2

Did Hoid switch out the blades?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question.

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

He's also confirmed multiple times that Hoid does not have the blade.

Quote

Questioner

The Herald of War at the end of Way of Kings-- I assume he had an Honorblade with him?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Okay... So when Dalinar had the sword that he gave up...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

...for the Stormfather it actually cried, which it typically happens if there's spren in the sword, which means that was not an Honorblade, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, and if you look they're described differently!

Questioner

Which means somebody else has the sword, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

The sword was switched out!

Questioner

Probably by Wit. I'm not going to ask you for spoilers, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Wit does not have the sword.

Questioner

No!?

Brandon Sanderson

But... I can't-- I dunno if I've told people whether or not he at one point had the sword... But he does not have the sword now.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

 

As for Szeth's Oathstone, the idea is interesting! 

https://wob.coppermind.net/adv_search/?query=Oathstone

We do seem to have an older WoB where Brandon confirms that the Oathstone has no magical properties, but it has been RAFO'd since. Might've been something Brandon changed his mind on. That WoB is also without a direct source.

but previous Bondsmiths couldn't use Connections, would the Shin have known how to? It also shakes the largest part of Szeth's characterization a bit: his fidelity to a personal code, which is what caught Nale's eye.

 

As for the Shin not coming to recollect the Honorblade, given Ishar's comments in RoW, they're busy with something else in their homeland. Possibly an Unmade. Why they even gave a Truthless an Honorblade is not known. We don't know enough about the Shin.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Honorless

[Alcatur]

On 9/3/2021 at 6:16 PM, Shinwarrior said:

I recently saw a theory about Szeth and his oathstone. He mentioned in the books that there is nothing special about an oathstone, but follows it only out of a sense of honor. However, after Szeth see's Ishar with the bondsmith honorblade he gets upsets knowing that something happened to his father who held the blade before. Is there a chance that Szeth was honor bound as well as bound to his oathstone by something done from the bondsmith honorblade? The more I think about the Shin elders and shamans the less I think they're doing honorable stuff.  

 

Second, Taln's Honorblade. I know that it is unaccounted for at the present time. I found an old theory here about Hoid being the one who has Taln's honorblade and it does make alot of sense. 

My personal theory is that the Shin Stone Shamans had come and collected it. I run into a bit of a contradiction there though because I thought they were holding the blades until the heralds returned. (Nale reclaiming his blade, and Ishar reclamining his as well). So why would they come and take it from Taln? 

 

Anyway, my last point is has to do with Szeth and Jezrien's honorblade. It's assumed that if he dies the stone shaman's will come and collect his fallen honorblade. No matter which way you look at it, he does end up dying at the end of WoR and his honorblade is left for Kaladin who reclaims it. Eventually the blade works it's way to find Moash. All of this happens with the Stone Shamans not even trying to recover a priceless object. What's up with that? That's a long time to be too busy to even try. 

It is a rather busy period, and it was not that much time. Even if they have learned immediately of Sheth "death" and where the blade was, travel to Urithiru would take a lot of time, especially that getting to tower may be somewhat difficult for a group of Shin people. Then the blade went to Moash and travelling to wherever he was at a moment is probably even harder. The collection by Stone Shamans assumes a more or less normal time, not a middle of desolation. 

Usually, had Szeth falle, locating the blade would probably be pretty straightforward, and the new user wouldn't be able to use it. Here though the circumstances are much different. 

On 9/3/2021 at 6:16 PM, Shinwarrior said:

These thoughts are a little all over the place but it has me thinking that the Shin leaders are not very good people. My initial response to the Shin made me think of them as an honorable people who stick to their land and glorify growing more than killing. When Szeth made an oath to bring retribution to the Shin elders I was leery because it felt a little too much like petty revenge. However, looking a little deeper, I think it may be a necessity that Szeth go and “... cleanse the Shin of their false leaders". 

 

Anyway, any thoughts on this? 

 

Stone shamanism appears to be strange. For all its trappings, it is probably not the original religion of Shin people (as they were not that reclusive in earlier eras and didn't have all those strange rules). So they did come later and maybe this is why they are "false leaders"?

 

49 minutes ago, Honorless said:

We do seem to have an older WoB where Brandon confirms that the Oathstone has no magical properties, but it has been RAFO'd since. Might've been something Brandon changed his mind on. That WoB is also without a direct source.

It is noted in the books (when Szeth thinks how it was always just a rock). Still, I think that for the lack  of properties, Szeth training and upbringing must have been quite strange and while there were no special properties of the stone itself, I think that it played significant role in his training and that it would be very hard for him to disobey.

[Weltall]

On 9/3/2021 at 9:16 AM, Shinwarrior said:

Is there a chance that Szeth was honor bound as well as bound to his oathstone by something done from the bondsmith honorblade?

Szeth's breakdown at being forced to confront the fact that he had been right the whole time and could have stopped doing all the horrible things he'd done as the Assassin in White loses a lot of force if you go back later and say 'No, he was magically compelled to obey', especially since we've spent four books being told that there's literally nothing special about an oathstone. It's also part of Nale's rationale for why Szeth is such a perfect Skybreaker candidate, for another reason why changing things now wouldn't make sense.

Also, this is confirmed by WoB: Nothing magical about them whatsoever.

Quote

The more I think about the Shin elders and shamans the less I think they're doing honorable stuff. 

The reveal at the end of RoW makes some of their actions look better (maybe) and other things make them more questionable. Keeping the honorblades but not to return them could be seen as good, since the Heralds are literally insane and the Honorblades are extremely powerful and dangerous. Think of it like keeping a known lunatic away from sharp, shooty or explody objects. The way the conversation goes, it sounds like the Stone Shamans are aware of some of the Heralds' dirty secrets and have been staying quiet about them. The possible counterargument is that they're keeping them with ulterior motives, which may or may not be related to the fact that the Shin tried invading the rest of Roshar at least once in the past.

The other part of the conversation with Ishar gave us the whole 'Your people tried to make gods of the Unmade' thing which doesn't look good for the Stone Shamans at all. However, that's assuming the claim is even partially true. Brandon has told us that we shouldn't ever trust what the Heralds say so...

Seeing how with a bit of thought you can twist both those things into arguments for 'the Stone Shamans are doing Good Things' or 'the Stone Shamans are doing Bad Things' just goes to show that we really need more information before we can understand things.

Quote

Second, Taln's Honorblade. I know that it is unaccounted for at the present time. I found an old theory here about Hoid being the one who has Taln's honorblade and it does make alot of sense.

For future reference, we have WoBs (like this one) confirming that Hoid didn't do it.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Weltall