Division as Odium's Truest Surge

[+Bzhydack he/him]

25 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Because Surgebinders don't see the future. That is Voidbinding.

That's not fully true. Standard Ilumination HAS some futuresight. We've seen few times, Shallan was drawing Yalb survival, also was drawing "possible future" for many people - what is very similar to what Renarin to Moash.

Renarin's Progression works normaly, so his "Void" Has to be Ilumination. And maybe Voidbinding is Surgebinding shifted extremaly into Spiritual Aspect of Surge (as Basic concept). Maybe we can try guess other effects of Voidbinding with this pattern. But they probably would not be as dramatic as for Truthwatchers, because of central position of them on Voidbinding Chart, what suggests they are the strongest Voidbinders.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

That's not fully true. Standard Ilumination HAS some futuresight. We've seen few times, Shallan was drawing Yalb survival, also was drawing "possible future" for many people - what is very similar to what Renarin to Moash.

Yes. Are we talking about the visions he sees or the visions he makes people see?

What Lightweavers do needs not be truth. Shallan hence is free to imagine better futures for people and depict them.

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

Renarin's Progression works normaly, so his "Void" Has to be Ilumination.

I totally agree. And we are told that he cannot make illusions.

That basically leaves two options

• The idealized visions are his resonance
• They are a cooperation of the Void and the Surge in the manner of the Reverse Lashing

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

And maybe Voidbinding is Surgebinding shifted extremaly into Spiritual Aspect of Surge (as Basic concept). Maybe we can try guess other effects of Voidbinding with this pattern.

Well, if you do that you'd come to the conclusion that Gravitation should be a Surge while Adhesion should be a "Void". But yes, the Surge and the Void are relating to pictures. There seems to be a connection.

 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

 

What Lightweavers do needs not be truth. Shallan hence is free to imagine better futures for people and depict them.

What Renarin sees also not always is truth. He saw for sure his Death from Jasnah's sword, and his Father as Odium's Champion. 

And what Shallan do seems to have more in it than just imagination. Those people often BECAME like those pictures.

16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I totally agree. And we are told that he cannot make illusions.

That basically leaves two options

• The idealized visions are his resonance
• They are a cooperation of the Void and the Surge in the manner of the Reverse Lashing

I think rather the latter, but more like cooperation between Physical and Spiritual Aspect of Ilumination.

18 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, if you do that you'd come to the conclusion that Gravitation should be a Surge while Adhesion should be a "Void". But yes, the Surge and the Void are relating to pictures. There seems to be a connection.

 

There is Physical Adhesion, Surge of Vacuum and Pressure. But maybe this is why there is no Void-Adhesion (or is? Envoyform anyone?) Because extremaly Spiritual Adhesion was allready taken (Bondsmith).

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I strongly disagree with this way of putting it for a few reasons.

1. The "Surges" are not just the effects of Surgebinding. They're a set of (often mostly philosophical) percieved fundamental forces, which the Knights Radiant express aspects of (and we see via things like Bondsmiths that other aspects can be expressed while still being considered the same Surge). So I don't feel there will be "ten

The Surges can be assumed to be fundamental. But they cannot be assumed to be a complete description of the world or its arcane aspect. And the Rosharans know and have been knowing for a long time that.

• spren sensing emotions
• the mass reduction chasmfiends and other greatshells do
• influencing emotions (The Thrill and the Heart of the Revel)
• influencing perception (you cannot simulate a painrial with Surges)
• repelling fabrials (impossible with Surges)
• alerting fabrials (impossible with Surges)
• the way Shardblades affect limbs (impossible with Surges)
• the protective effective of Shardplate
• the strengthening effect of Shardplate
• the stuff the Midnight Mother does
• the way Spren increase the intelligence of Rhyshadiums
• fabrials for strengthening and stabilizing a ship

And you could probably extend the list by a lot if you wanted to. No, it must be clear to every even only semieducated Rosharan who thinks about the matter for a few hours that there are numerous phenomena Surges cannot explain and that there must be something in addition to them.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No, it must be clear to every even only semieducated Rosharan who thinks about the matter for a few hours that there are numerous phenomena Surges cannot explain and that there must be something in addition to them.

I mean, this feels like saying

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No, it must be clear to every even only semieducated Earthian who thinks about the matter for a few hours that there are numerous phenomena the four interactions cannot explain and that there must be something in addition to them.

Not everything is gonna be explained by just the very basic level, you're gonna get into things interacting in a complex manner that's not easily explainable without massive amounts of time and research. Especially with how philosophical the Surges are, if something is absolutely impossible to describe using the physical manifestations you can just start using the more spiritual or abstract ones. For example,

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influencing perception (you cannot simulate a painrial with Surges)

You can probably explain this in terms of Transformation or Illumination (depending on the exact nature of the concepts), acting in a more abstract role than Surgebinders can directly manipulate. 

Again, the Surges are not just the magic system of Surgebinding, any more than the only manifesation of the electroweak interaction is phones. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I mean, this feels like saying

No, because Rosharans are even told, by their gods no less, that there are arcane phenomena you must not attribute to the Surges: Futuresight

3 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Again, the Surges are not just the magic system of Surgebinding, any more than the only manifesation of the electroweak interaction is phones. 

Well, either or. If you can have stuff besides the ten Surges, you can have Voids and Lifes.

[Frustration he/him]

13 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I strongly disagree with this way of putting it for a few reasons.

1. The "Surges" are not just the effects of Surgebinding. They're a set of (often mostly philosophical) percieved fundamental forces, which the Knights Radiant express aspects of (and we see via things like Bondsmiths that other aspects can be expressed while still being considered the same Surge). So I don't feel there will be "ten Voids" or "ten Lifes", there will be different expressions of the Surges filtered through the lens of the relevant Shard(s). 

I think you are spliting hairs on this part, Hemalurgy still uses the same metals but is a different system, and can be classified as such i.e. H-steel, rather than A-steel

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1. Surgebinding and Radiance is not just of Honor. It is of both Honor and Cultivation, which both sides agree on. So the "Surges" (as defined the way you seem to be using it, not how I defined it above) would be of both, not purely Honor's.

However they use Stormlight, not Towerlight, with one exception.

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No, because Rosharans are even told, by their gods no less, that there are arcane phenomena you must not attribute to the Surges: Futuresight

Um, no, none othe the shards ever say that. And there is evidence to the contrary.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I think you are spliting hairs on this part, Hemalurgy still uses the same metals but is a different system, and can be classified as such i.e. H-steel, rather than A-steel

Exactly. You don't stop calling steel "steel", nor do you stop classifying it as a metal. You just add a qualifier to clarify that you mean a different property of the metal. So I would argue you shouldn't, say, stop calling Illumination "Illumination" just because we're looking at a system that expresses a different aspect of it, nor should you stop calling it a Surge. 

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

However they use Stormlight, not Towerlight, with one exception.

Which is definitely pretty interesting. At the same time, her powers don't seem noticeably different (besides maybe her Progression working better), so these two things seem somewhat separate. 

[mathiau he/him]

11 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

That's not fully true. Standard Ilumination HAS some futuresight. We've seen few times, Shallan was drawing Yalb survival, also was drawing "possible future" for many people - what is very similar to what Renarin to Moash.

I don't see how drawing a future you hope for is future sight

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Renarin's Progression works normaly, so his "Void" Has to be Ilumination.

Renarin's Progression doesn't work normaly

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And maybe Voidbinding is Surgebinding shifted extremaly into Spiritual Aspect of Surge (as Basic concept). Maybe we can try guess other effects of Voidbinding with this pattern. But they probably would not be as dramatic as for Truthwatchers, because of central position of them on Voidbinding Chart, what suggests they are the strongest Voidbinders.

I'm curious as to how you would explain S-Transformation whithout attributing it a strong Spiritual Aspect

12 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That basically leaves two options

• The idealized visions are his resonance
• They are a cooperation of the Void and the Surge in the manner of the Reverse Lashing

I think the second is more likely, the idea would be "take V-Illusion's temporal effects and make it grows with V-Progression (or S-Progression depending of the theory)"

11 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

There is Physical Adhesion, Surge of Vacuum and Pressure. But maybe this is why there is no Void-Adhesion (or is? Envoyform anyone?) Because extremaly Spiritual Adhesion was allready taken (Bondsmith).

Windrunners too uses Spiritual Adhesion, for reverse Lashings

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

• the mass reduction chasmfiends and other greatshells do

Gravity reduction. That's a surge

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• repelling fabrials (impossible with Surges)
• alerting fabrials (impossible with Surges)

Fabrials are linked to the third magic system

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• the way Shardblades affect limbs (impossible with Surges)

Still similar to what Navani did to Moash with Spiritual Tension

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• the stuff the Midnight Mother does

Is quite similar to what Shallan was doing at the Battle of Thaylen fields

10 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Again, the Surges are not just the magic system of Surgebinding

We're using the word Surge to mean of of two thing :

1. The philosophical meaning you want that word to always mean
2. H+C's interpretation of that thing

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any more than the only manifesation of the electroweak interaction is phones. 

Since when do phones uses electroweak interaction?

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

However they use Stormlight, not Towerlight, with one exception.

Funny, depending on how one parse that sentence there can be two exceptions.

Talking about Lift, isn't it a bit weird she appears to be the only one able to use Growth?

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Since when do phones uses electroweak interaction?

They.... run on electricity? And electromagnetism is part of what holds atoms and molecules together. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Renarin's Progression doesn't work normaly

That is highly debtable, as we have never gotten a viewpoint from anybody but Adolin while being healed.

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Gravity reduction. That's a surge

No, look at how Chasmfiends go around corners. Their legs would shatter. They really reduce mass.

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Fabrials are linked to the third magic system

Again, no. You can heal by Fabrial. You can use Soulcasting by Fabrial as Melishi used it. Fabrials are just not tied to any system.

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

11 minutes ago, mathiau said:

We're using the word Surge to mean of of two thing :

1. The philosophical meaning you want that word to always mean
2. H+C's interpretation of that thing

I think swapping between the definitions so much mostly just causes needless confusion, especially when the meaning seems to change (I believe I recall an argument being floated that some Voids may be related to Surges and others aren't, in which case the meaning seems to be being used as the first meaning even though the conversation otherwise uses the latter). And it seems to also sometimes be taken to only mean Honor's interpretation (see: the idea of Surges, Lifes, and Voids as H, C, and O), while other times it means the interpretations of the spren of H&C - which gets even more complicated when you remember some of the Bondsmith spren are only of one of the Shards, and yet the word Surge still applies even though it's a wildly different interpretation of the power. So I don't think that usage of the word "Surge" should only mean one limited subset, considering it doesn't remotely match how the characters use it or scholars classify it. 

[+Bzhydack he/him]

39 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't see how drawing a future you hope for is future sight

It happens definitly too often, to be just "Hope". Hope can be few times, not with literaly every person she met. Plus is also Yalb Survival Thing - she even don't think during this drawing, she made IT like Vision.

 

47 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Renarin's Progression doesn't work normaly

From all we've seen, Renarin's Progression is like every other's.

49 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I'm curious as to how you would explain S-Transformation whithout attributing it a strong Spiritual Aspect

I'm not - because i'm not telling that standard Surgebinding don't have Spiritual Aspect. Of course IT Has. But focus still seems to be on Physical part, with noticable but weaker Spiritual part. Voidbinding seems to have this proportions reversed, with very strong Spiritual Aspect, and noticable but weaker Physical Aspect.

 

55 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Windrunners too uses Spiritual Adhesion, for reverse Lashings

Eeee, no. Reverse Lashing is still Physical Adhesion. Spiritual Adhesion is what makes them very good leaders.

[mathiau he/him]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

They.... run on electricity? And electromagnetism is part of what holds atoms and molecules together. 

That's electromagnetism, the electroweak interaction is how electromagnetism and the weak interaction fuse when the temperature is above 10^15 K, it doesn't exists at the temperature your phone uses.

(Of course, the point you were trying to make perfectly works if you replace "electroweak interaction" by "electromagnetism" in your sentence)

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

That is highly debtable, as we have never gotten a viewpoint from anybody but Adolin while being healed.

So you do agree we don't know that Renarin's progression works normally

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No, look at how Chasmfiends go around corners. Their legs would shatter. They really reduce mass.

I don't see how reducing (external) gravity wouldn't solve the leg shattering issue

Quote

Again, no. You can heal by Fabrial. You can use Soulcasting by Fabrial as Melishi used it. Fabrials are just not tied to any system.

Ok, Fabrials aren't

16 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

It happens definitly too often, to be just "Hope". Hope can be few times, not with literaly every person she met.

More often than Navani's burning a glyph and her prayer becoming true within the hour?

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Plus is also Yalb Survival Thing - she even don't think during this drawing, she made IT like Vision.

I don't remember what chapter that was, can you give a citation/the chapter?

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From all we've seen, Renarin's Progression is like every other's.

I don't remember anyone talking about perfected-self vision when healed by Lift or Yalb

Quote

I'm not - because i'm not telling that standard Surgebinding don't have Spiritual Aspect. Of course IT Has. But focus still seems to be on Physical part, with noticable but weaker Spiritual part.

Transformation is literally asking something to change it's Identity, you can't get much more Spiritual than that

Quote

Voidbinding seems to have this proportions reversed, with very strong Spiritual Aspect, and noticable but weaker Physical Aspect.

Conceivable, but how do you explain Navani's Spiritual Tension and Dalinar applying Tension on the Realms themselves?

Quote

Eeee, no. Reverse Lashing is still Physical Adhesion. Spiritual Adhesion is what makes them very good leaders.

I don't see how Pressure has anything to do with asking something to have an abnormally high gravitational field

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

And it seems to also sometimes be taken to only mean Honor's interpretation (see: the idea of Surges, Lifes, and Voids as H, C, and O), while other times it means the interpretations of the spren of H&C -

That one doesn't matter much, some people believes Surgebinding is only of Honour and are wrong but they're still talking of the same thing.

The other points are legitimate but if English can survive "Draw" having five different meaning we can survive Surge having two

Edited July 25, 2021 by mathiau

[LewsTherinTelescope]

34 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That's electromagnetism, the electroweak interaction is how electromagnetism and the weak interaction fuse when the temperature is above 10^15 K, it doesn't exists at the temperature your phone uses.

(Of course, the point you were trying to make perfectly works if you replace "electroweak interaction" by "electromagnetism" in your sentence)

In that case I'll blame my physics teacher, wouldn't be the first time he's not completely understood what he was teaching us

(He also tried to convince us aliens built the pyramids, so I'm kind of used to taking what he says with a grain of salt, lol.)

Edit: once more, hitting reply before finishing reading has screwed me up, lol

34 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That one doesn't matter much, some people believes Surgebinding is only of Honour and are wrong but they're still talking of the same thing.

The thing is, it leads to wildly different theories based on which interpretation of the word you use, and it's not always clear from the word itself what's meant. (For your "draw" example, it's not like it can mean "either painting, woodcarving, or art as a whole and it's not always clear which", most of the meanings are pretty different. Otoh, "Surge" has the usages similar enough to each other it can cause communication issues.)

Edited July 25, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Frustration he/him]

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Exactly. You don't stop calling steel "steel", nor do you stop classifying it as a metal. You just add a qualifier to clarify that you mean a different property of the metal. So I would argue you shouldn't, say, stop calling Illumination "Illumination" just because we're looking at a system that expresses a different aspect of it, nor should you stop calling it a Surge.

I mean, given that they would call Allomancy Surgebinding I don't think we should use Rosharan definitions.

I think it would be best to go, Surge Illumination, Void Illumination, Life Illumination.

Of course it could eventually be called a surge independednt of each system, and it would be Storm illumination, but I don't think Brandon will do that.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

I mean, given that they would call Allomancy Surgebinding I don't think we should use Rosharan definitions.

I think it would be best to go, Surge Illumination, Void Illumination, Life Illumination.

Of course it could eventually be called a surge independednt of each system, and it would be Storm illumination, but I don't think Brandon will do that.

Few things:

1. Radiants are of both Shards, so that categorization leaves out Honor.
   1. Since "Surge" would thus be H&C, we'd likely need separate words for H&O, C&O, and H&C&O, at which point we've got seven words used in the fandom for what people in-world likely consider to be just one thing, and it still doesn't actually cover everything the in-world word does.
   2. You might even be able to argue that different orders belong to different "Shards" (since the spren have different Intents and we know the manifestations of the same Surge differ slightly between orders), and that they aren't the same thing. This is obviously a silly slippery slope fallacy, but I think it highlights that there's a big difference in the way we're approaching these things.
2. Under the definition you give, neither the Nightwatcher nor the Stormfather would grant Surges, only "Lifes" and "Storms" (the Bondsmith blurb confirms the powers work differently for different Bondsmiths).
3. It complicates entrance to the fandom, since new readers likely won't know that people are using terms defined very differently from in the books, and that seems like a conversation that will get old fast.
   1. (Subjective and tangential) I think calling them "Lifes"/"Lives" is a bad idea because I don't want to have to explain to new readers that "the Nightwatcher grants two Lives" has nothing to do with resurrection

[+Oltux72 he/him]

5 hours ago, Frustration said:

Um, no, none othe the shards ever say that. And there is evidence to the contrary.

Shards themselves have Futuresight. I am sure this is theologically awkward for the Ardents. But still, as Futuresight is forbidden, it must exist and is not a capability of the Knights Radiant.

 

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

So you do agree we don't know that Renarin's progression works normally

No, for Navani has looked at the results and they are identical. As far as experiences are concerned, for all we know Adolin may have an active imagination and had gotten a hard hit on the head. Now, being healed as a quasiŕeligious experience to a Rosaran, as long as they don't deny any strange experiences, we know noothing.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I don't see how reducing (external) gravity wouldn't solve the leg shattering issue

They'd shatter from inertia, not weight. Weight is the issue, if you need to walk or stand upright. As soon as the issue is change speed or direction, you'll need to deal with inertia, too.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I don't remember anyone talking about perfected-self vision when healed by Lift or Yalb

* Not healed by their brother

* not bonded to a Blade

hardly conclusive. And they are healed. We may be seeing a resonance. Or Adolin is just more sensitive than average.

22 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Few things:

1. Radiants are of both Shards, so that categorization leaves out Honor.
   1. Since "Surge" would thus be H&C, we'd likely need separate words for H&O, C&O, and H&C&O, at which point we've got seven words used in the fandom for what people in-world likely consider to be just one thing, and it still doesn't actually cover everything the in-world word does.
   2. You might even be able to argue that different orders belong to different "Shards" (since the spren have different Intents and we know the manifestations of the same Surge differ slightly between orders), and that they aren't the same thing. This is obviously a silly slippery slope fallacy, but I think it highlights that there's a big difference in the way we're approaching these things.

For this discussion Honor matters more than Cultivation, as Odium does not grant Honor's truest Surge to his Surgebinders and it keeps working with Stormlight. We just cannot claim that Cultivation gets the same distinction.

22 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

1. Under the definition you give, neither the Nightwatcher nor the Stormfather would grant Surges, only "Lifes" and "Storms" (the Bondsmith blurb confirms the powers work differently for different Bondsmiths).

Presumably they can all glue chairs to walls and make cloth rigid. Adhesion is not fundamentally different for a Bondsmith. There is nothing Kaladin can do with Adhesion, that Dalinar cannot do. Bondsmiths just get extra capabilities.

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Odium does not grant Honor's truest Surge to his Surgebinders

I don't understand how this makes Surgebinding overall Honor and not Cultivation?

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

and it keeps working with Stormlight

And Progression keeps working with Lifelight, and seems to be more effective with it, going off of Lift and lifespren.

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Bondsmiths just get extra capabilities.

Extra capabilities that are always described by everyone as Adhesion.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

59 minutes ago, mathiau said:

More often than Navani's burning a glyph and her prayer becoming true within the hour?

Yep. Should I count people completly changed after viewing drawing Shallan made for them? They are literraly around her.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I don't remember what chapter that was, can you give a citation/the chapter?

It's Words of Radiance Chapter 30. And right after that Shallan draws Shallash destroying her Statue. At this time she dont even know how Shallash look like, not even mention imagine Herald during something like that.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I don't remember anyone talking about perfected-self vision when healed by Lift or Yalb

I don't remember any other Renarin's Patient mention something simmilar, and also Adolin was healed by brother many times and this happened only once, so this is not effect of Progression, but rather unconcous usage of Illumination.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Transformation is literally asking something to change it's Identity, you can't get much more Spiritual than that

I think we have little misunderstanding. Of course, this is spiritual, like every usage of Investiture but is difference between usage of Surge on physical objects (like Transformation one matter into other, or Gravitation into wrong direction) and usage on human's soul, or other minds (like Transformation human into better version of himself, or Gravitation towards many people to lead them). We even have this explained by Pattern. This is, I think, difference between Spiritual and Physical Aspects of Surges.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

Conceivable, but how do you explain Navani's Spiritual Tension and Dalinar applying Tension on the Realms themselves?

I dont need to. Why this is problem? I tell for the 3d time:

Standard Surge has Physical and Spiritual usage. So Any Radiant with Tension can use it Physicaly, or Spiritualy. For Bondsmiths This can also have something with how strong Bondsmith Spren are - of course Spren who is embodiment of Planet-size Strom, entire Mountain or Life itself will be powerfull enough to overcharge Surge.

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

I don't see how Pressure has anything to do with asking something to have an abnormally high gravitational field

Why has to be gravitational field? Can be pressure.

But also I dont see ANY trace of Spiritual Adhesion in Reverse Lashing. No Connecting People with their past/future, leading, ore something like that. This is still physical usage of the Surge(s).

[mathiau he/him]

40 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In that case I'll blame my physics teacher, wouldn't be the first time he's not completely understood what he was teaching us

(He also tried to convince us aliens built the pyramids, so I'm kind of used to taking what he says with a grain of salt, lol.)

If it was a high-school teacher it's possible he did not understand what he was talking about, after all knowledge of advanced quantum field theory is not exactly why they are recruited

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Edit: once more, hitting reply before finishing reading has screwed me up, lol

Funnily, I was screwed up by hitting reply before finishing reading and edited that in^^

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The thing is, it leads to wildly different theories based on which interpretation of the word you use, and it's not always clear from the word itself what's meant. (For your "draw" example, it's not like it can mean "either painting, woodcarving, or art as a whole and it's not always clear which", most of the meanings are pretty different. Otoh, "Surge" has the usages similar enough to each other it can cause communication issues.)

Point taken

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Which is definitely pretty interesting. At the same time, her powers don't seem noticeably different (besides maybe her Progression working better), so these two things seem somewhat separate.

Note that it's theoretically possible to power Ferruchemy by the mist or the black mist

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No, for Navani has looked at the results and they are identical. As far as experiences are concerned, for all we know Adolin may have an active imagination and had gotten a hard hit on the head. Now, being healed as a quasiŕeligious experience to a Rosaran, as long as they don't deny any strange experiences, we know noothing.

Source? I don't see why it's impossible she just saw

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They'd shatter from inertia, not weight. Weight is the issue, if you need to walk or stand upright. As soon as the issue is change speed or direction, you'll need to deal with inertia, too.

1. That would necessitate really insane weights
2. Why wouldn't they be able to use Gravitation to help moving forward?

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* Not healed by their brother

Shouldn't matter

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Presumably they can all glue chairs to walls and make cloth rigid. Adhesion is not fundamentally different for a Bondsmith. There is nothing Kaladin can do with Adhesion, that Dalinar cannot do. Bondsmiths just get extra capabilities.

Except of course the wind mask every Windrunner can do and Dalinar can't

13 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Extra capabilities that are always described by everyone as Adhesion.

The statue reparation and Perpendicularities are actually hybrids, and I stay convinced Navani used spritiual Tension on Moash

But yeah, the white light are definitely Adhesion

5 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Yep. Should I count people completly changed after viewing drawing Shallan made for them? They are literraly around her.

That's changing the future not predicting it

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It's Words of Radiance Chapter 30. And right after that Shallan draws Shallash destroying her Statue. At this time she dont even know how Shallash look like, not even mention imagine Herald during something like that.

Both are seeing the present, maybe even the past, not the future. Syl did the same when she shapeshifted into Shallan.

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I don't remember any other Renarin's Patient mention something simmilar, and also Adolin was healed by brother many times and this happened only once, so this is not effect of Progression, but rather unconcous usage of Illumination.

That was only mentioned once. We can't know yet whether it's normal to S-Progression, an accidental use of V-Illumination or V-Progression.

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We even have this explained by Pattern. This is, I think, difference between Spiritual and Physical Aspects of Surges

I don't remember that

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I dont need to. Why this is problem? I tell for the 3d time:

Standard Surge has Physical and Spiritual usage. So Any Radiant with Tension can use it Physicaly, or Spiritualy. For Bondsmiths This can also have something with how strong Bondsmith Spren are - of course Spren who is embodiment of Planet-size Strom, entire Mountain or Life itself will be powerfull enough to overcharge Surge.

I don't appear to be able to show him the inherent contradiction between saying "Void appears to be the Surge with reverse Physical/Spiritual ratio" and "having a Godspren allows you to use the Spiritual version of a normally physical Surge", can someone else try?

Also I don't see how assuming it's normal for Tension to have a Spiritual side alows to makes the Realms softer, that's neither Cognitive, Physical nor Spiritual.

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or Life itself

Er... no, not even close. Life is not even fully included in Cultivation.

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Why has to be gravitational field? Can be pressure.

No it can't, it would have created a wind between Lezian and the window if it was

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But also I dont see ANY trace of Spiritual Adhesion in Reverse Lashing. No Connecting People with their past/future, leading, ore something like that. This is still physical usage of the Surge(s).

Ok, I think you missed that every object has a spiritual aspect, linking two objects (eg a window and Lezian's head) is spiritual adhesion.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

If it was a high-school teacher it's possible he did not understand what he was talking about, after all knowledge of advanced quantum field theory is not exactly why they are recruited

Fair enough, yeah. Was meaning that mostly jokingly, because it's not the first time he's said far more inaccurate things he should no better about lol.

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

The statue reparation and Perpendicularities are actually hybrids, and I stay convinced Navani used spritiual Tension on Moash

But yeah, the white light are definitely Adhesion

I'm still half convinced Brandon thought Bondsmiths had Cohesion when he wrote the temple scene and it was supposed to be a Spiritual version of that

But yeah, thanks for the correction, wasn't sure how much was stated in the books so I was sticking to just mentioning Adhesion to be on the safe side

[+Bzhydack he/him]

30 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That's changing the future not predicting it

Not exactly. Shallan is not working on them directly. She just draw and let people live up to image. Also, to change something, you need first have Vision/prediction what to change and what it will look like. So this is possible future.

7 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Both are seeing the present, maybe even the past, not the future. Syl did the same when she shapeshifted into Shallan.

But still, this is not imagination, like you imply. This is vision of distatnt things.

8 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't appear to be able to show him the inherent contradiction between saying "Void appears to be the Surge with reverse Physical/Spiritual ratio" and "having a Godspren allows you to use the Spiritual version of a normally physical Surge", can someone else try?

There is not. Look this way:

You have car (this is spren). This car have some transportation capability - has room for passangers (This is Physical Surge) and trunk for luggage (This is Spiritual Surge). But can be car with almost no room for passangers and very big trunk, like pick-up (this is Voidbinding, Shifted Physical-Spiritual ratio)

And now compare this to the train (This is Godspren). Train can transport people and luggage, and even if can transport more People than cargo (ratio of People - Cargo is shifted to people, mean Physical-Spiritual Surge is in normal ratio) still can transport much more cargo than your Car, even if this is clearly transporter.

Is this clear? Is clear to me...

22 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That was only mentioned once. We can't know yet whether it's normal to S-Progression, an accidental use of V-Illumination or V-Progression.

I think Adolin would notice this and mention, if this would be more times. This is something odd, and what not normally happens. And we have Adolin point of view many times, would be something like: "Like always when Renarin heals him Adolin sees his Radiant image"

I have also another idea. Maybe those images are one of "normal" Truthwatcher powers? Maybe only this remains for Renarin from normal Ilumination? This Order is known as TRUTHWATCHERS - but we didnt see much of "Watching" in them - maybe this is it - they can see Truth about people and show them who they TRULLY are?

29 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't remember that

I need to find this, but it was also in Words of Radiance, during Shallan's travel to camps. When she encounter deserters.

37 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Ok, I think you missed that every object has a spiritual aspect, linking two objects (eg a window and Lezian's head) is spiritual adhesion.

Ok, good point. But still it works for my theory too ;-)

39 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Shouldn't matter

Much stronger Connection between them, this can matter.

40 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Except of course the wind mask every Windrunner can do and Dalinar can't

I always think Dalinar simply dont know how to make this mask, or dos not try to, because should be able to do this.

[mathiau he/him]

6 minutes ago, Bzhydack said:

Not exactly. Shallan is not working on them directly.

Not any more than Navani burning glyphs is working directly on anyone, yet they often work

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She just draw and let people live up to image.

How is that seeing the future?

Also, for some reason that feels more Endowment than Honour/Cultivation

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Also, to change something, you need first have Vision/prediction what to change and what it will look like. So this is possible future.

Not at all. For what Shallan is doing (offering people to become something else) yes you do but that's not the same for every type of changes. And for that you only need an imagined future.

 

Now about the farsight events

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But still, this is not imagination, like you imply. This is vision of distatnt things.

I didn't imply it was imagination, my point is that when she's drawing Yalb or Ash* she's having farsight effects and not foresight effects, the former is not seeing the future but the latter is

 

*and not when she's drawing Gaz

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There is not. Look this way:

You have car (this is spren). This car have some transportation capability - has room for passangers (This is Physical Surge) and trunk for luggage (This is Spiritual Surge). But can be car with almost no room for passangers and very big trunk, like pick-up (this is Voidbinding, Shifted Physical-Spiritual ratio)

And now compare this to the train (This is Godspren). Train can transport people and luggage, and even if can transport more People than cargo (ratio of People - Cargo is shifted to people, mean Physical-Spiritual Surge is in normal ratio) still can transport much more cargo than your Car, even if this is clearly transporter.

Is this clear? Is clear to me...

I'm confused, why are you using a bigger change in your metaphor for having a big spren than for using another magic system?

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I think Adolin would notice this and mention, if this would be more times. This is something odd, and what not normally happens. And we have Adolin point of view many times, would be something like: "Like always when Renarin heals him Adolin sees his Radiant image"

I don't remember when Adolin got healed by Renarin other than on the scene he materialised Glys as a Blade

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I have also another idea. Maybe those images are one of "normal" Truthwatcher powers? Maybe only this remains for Renarin from normal Ilumination?

That is very possible

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This Order is known as TRUTHWATCHERS - but we didnt see much of "Watching" in them - maybe this is it - they can see Truth about people and show them who they TRULLY are?

We had always assumed they had a farsight version of Renarin's foresight, I makes even more sense now that you shown Shallan has some farsight (make your farsight grow in a vision with Progression, like I'm assuming Renarin is doing with his foresight)

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Ok, good point. But still it works for my theory too ;-)

Even the part where reverse lashings are fully physicals?

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Much stronger Connection between them, this can matter.

Yeas it actually can

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I always think Dalinar simply dont know how to make this mask, or dos not try to, because should be able to do this.

While this is most likely true, I refuse to consider an ability he should have as an ability he has and then use that as an argument for him having every physical part of Adhesion, that's just circular reasoning

[+Bzhydack he/him]

3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't remember when Adolin got healed by Renarin other than on the scene he materialised Glys as a Blade

Few moments later near Perpendicularity for example ;-)

4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I'm confused, why are you using a bigger change in your metaphor for having a big spren than for using another magic system?

Because maching Surge-Void are in my theory closer related than different Surges. Also when you have normal Spren and Enlightened Spren or full Voidspren, they are rather similar amount of Investiture (Like cars with simmilar parameters) and compared to Godspren should have smaller capabilities (in terms of raw power, not usefullness) because Godspren is much more Investiture (like Train is bigger and has much larger capacity than car).

So if we compare Bondsmith to Stoneward, Stoneward still would have some Spiritual Tension, and Bondsmith also have Physical Tension (We know that), and even if they have the same Physical-Spiritual Ratio of Surge, Bondsmith Surges would be much stronger, because how stronger their Spren is (Again: Car and Train). And power in Physical Tension seems to be not very important, so even if Bondsmith have potentially much stronger Physical Tension, it simply would be no need to use this Surge whith large amounts of power.

21 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Not at all. For what Shallan is doing (offering people to become something else) yes you do but that's not the same for every type of changes. And for that you only need an imagined future.

I found some nice WoB:

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Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)
#68 Share Copy

 

Play/Pause

 

Questioner

My first question is about Shallan and whether what she does with her drawings and the deserters in Words of Radiance, kind of changing them, is at all similar to what Shai does in The Emperor's Soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Umm, that's a good question. There are similarities, but only so much that The Emperor's Soul is cosmere and is relying on the same foundation of magic. But good question. Are you getting at me saying you've seen somebody do it before?

Questioner

I talked to Alice.

Brandon Sanderson

So you have seen what she does before, but that is not what I was pointing at. It's someth-- No one is going to expect it.

As you can see, this is not just Shallan's imgination. It is related to her powers.

33 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Even the part where reverse lashings are fully physicals?

Yes - they affect only physical objects.