Compatibility across magic systems

[Dellexe]

Hey 17th Sharders!

What I would like to discuss today is the compatibility of the magical fuels (Stormlight, Breath, etc.) across the Cosmere.

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I just finished rereading Hero of Ages and had this thought as I was reading Vin's fight scene with the Inquisitors, when she draws on the mists to fuel her Allomancy.

Could Allomancers use other forms of power to fuel Allomancy? Say... Stormlight?

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Here's an explanation on my reasoning:

A Shard manifests itself in three ways, solid, liquid, and gaseous. Using Preservation as an example we have Lerasium beads (solid), the Well of Ascension (Liquid), and the Mists (gaseous).

We already know that one gaseous form of power (Stormlight) can substitute for another (Breath) in Vasher/Zahel's case.

 

What are your thoughts? What evidence have I missed that says either yea or nay to this theory?

[A Joe in the Bush]

Different Systems of Investiture are accessed differently. Returned are Spiritual Magic users, and feed on Spiritual Investiture, so they can subsist of Breath, Stormlight, or possibly the Dor. Allomancy is Physical Magic. It's power by the Physical Fuel of the Metals. It can't be powered by anything else, other than the Pure power of Ruin of Preservation. An Allomancer that sucked in Stormlight somehow, would gain the Passive abilities of a Surgebinder, but nothing else. 

 

South Scadrilian Mist Fabrials though, you might get away with powering them with stormlight, but I'm not certain how that would work.

[Moogle]

It's apparently possible to power any magic system with any type of Investiture with "jury-rigging". I can't find the WoB, but I could search more if you'd like. The example given was powering Allomancy with Breath. I imagine it'd be fairly easy to power Allomancy with Stormlight, but you'd need to find some way to inhale Stormlight. I'm not sure how you're supposed to manage that easily.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Moogle

[Dellexe]

Different Systems of Investiture are accessed differently. Returned are Spiritual Magic users, and feed on Spiritual Investiture, so they can subsist of Breath, Stormlight, or possibly the Dor. Allomancy is Physical Magic. It's power by the Physical Fuel of the Metals. It can't be powered by anything else, other than the Pure power of Ruin of Preservation. An Allomancer that sucked in Stormlight somehow, would gain the Passive abilities of a Surgebinder, but nothing else. 

 

South Scadrilian Mist Fabrials though, you might get away with powering them with stormlight, but I'm not certain how that would work.

 

I thought that the metals were just a focus for Preservation's power, like Aons for the Dor or Commands with Endowment.

 

It's apparently possible to power any magic system with any type of Investiture with "jury-rigging". I can't find the WoB, but I could search more if you'd like. The example given was powering Allomancy with Breath. I imagine it'd be fairly easy to power Allomancy with Stormlight, but you'd need to find some way to inhale Stormlight. I'm not sure how you're supposed to manage that easily.

 

Hmm. I don't recall ever seeing that WoB, but I am relatively new to this (I only discovered the Cosmere a couple months ago. First I noticed a certain character named Hoid, then I got smacked across the face with the end of Words of Radiance.).

Well, Vasher/Zahel inhales Stormlight somehow to keep himself alive, I guess that's probably a RAFO though...

[Moogle]

I thought that the metals were just a focus for Preservation's power, like Aons for the Dor or Commands with Endowment.

 

You're correct. The metals are not the power source, except in the case of atium/lerasium. Though, they're used up, so "fuel" is not necessarily a bad term. Someone else used the word "reactant", which I like.

 

Hmm. I don't recall ever seeing that WoB, but I am relatively new to this

 

I don't blame you. It's hidden away, near-impossible to find because it was a WoB that came out before the Age of R'Shara and after The Great Theoryland Pause. Here it is:

2. Could Nightblood be powered by Stormlight?

A: Yes. It would take some juryrigging, but all of the magic systems are compatible. It is possible to fuel allomancy with breath (that's the example Brandon gave), or any of the other magics with other forms of investiture. Difficult, but possible.

(source)

 

I believe we've also had it confirmed elsewhere, but I can't find that WoB either. I pray that the day that Theoryland updates comes soon.

Edited June 4, 2014 by Moogle

[Dellexe]

Thanks for finding that!

Well, my 3:00 AM musings on the mechanics of the Cosmere are actually accurate! That's a relief.

[A Joe in the Bush]

Quote

2. Could Nightblood be powered by Stormlight?

A: Yes. It would take some juryrigging, but all of the magic systems are compatible. It is possible to fuel allomancy with breath (that's the example Brandon gave), or any of the other magics with other forms of investiture. Difficult, but possible.

(source)

 

Well, that Proves me Wrong. How can Breath power Allomancy?

[Moogle]

Well, that Proves me Wrong. How can Breath power Allomancy?

 

Breath is gaseous, so I imagine you use it almost exactly like you use the Mists. Maybe it requires a Command or something though.

[A Joe in the Bush]

Maybe instead of "My breath to yours Ect" it's "My Power/Investiture to Your's, Burn Steel" Or something like that?

Edited June 4, 2014 by Hello. My name is Joe

[Leuthie]

That WoB basically solidified one fact: Investiture is investiture. Its interaction with a planet, a Shard, or an individual's sDNA determine how the investiture manifests Physically (Breath, Stormlight, the black mist around Vasher's blade, etc), or what Effects it has (what we call magic).

[Terisen]

Maybe instead of "My breath to yours Ect" it's "My Power/Investiture to Your's, Burn Steel" Or something like that?

 

I don't know if that works because you'd have to Awaken yourself if you were using a command like that, wouldn't you?  I don't know if Awakening a metal would get the same result either.  This is a strange little problem.

[Dellexe]

One interesting thing I've noticed: when Vin is using the Mists to fuel her Allomancy she doesn't use any metal as a focus; she burns it as if she's burning metals.

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This could mean that when directly connected with a source of Investiture, like the Mists, Allomancers (and maybe even other magic-system users) don't require a focus to channel their abilities. This would mean that a Mistborn could just use their abilities without the metal as a focus while burning Stormlight/Breath/the other god gases.

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Another interesting thing is how powerful Vin is when burning the Mists. Every Push or Pull has the force of a duralumin enhanced Push/Pull and she doesn't immediately burn out her focus. If a Mistborn figured out how to store and breathe in Stormlight/Breath, then theoretically that Mistborn would be much more powerful than an ordinary Mistborn.

[Terisen]

One interesting thing I've noticed: when Vin is using the Mists to fuel her Allomancy she doesn't use any metal as a focus; she burns it as if she's burning metals.

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This could mean that when directly connected with a source of Investiture, like the Mists, Allomancers (and maybe even other magic-system users) don't require a focus to channel their abilities. This would mean that a Mistborn could just use their abilities without the metal as a focus while burning Stormlight/Breath/the other god gases.

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Another interesting thing is how powerful Vin is when burning the Mists. Every Push or Pull has the force of a duralumin enhanced Push/Pull and she doesn't immediately burn out her focus. If a Mistborn figured out how to store and breathe in Stormlight/Breath, then theoretically that Mistborn would be much more powerful than an ordinary Mistborn.

 

This might answer your questions.

 

Kaimipono (16 October 2008)

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008)

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Terisen

[Dellexe]

This might answer your questions.

 

So basically an Allomancer burning Stormlight would go something like this:

 

*Burns Stormlight*

*Powerful Allomantic powers for a couple minutes*

*Poof*

 

What would happen to the conciousness of the Allomancer after burning Stormlight? Vin becomes Preservation when her corporeal body is destroyed. Would an Allomancer burning Stormlight become a Splinter of Honor or just die when they "nuke" themselves? This just opened up a whole new can of worms.

 

By the way, I'm now referring to the instance of an Allomancer burning a Shard's gaseous essence for too long "nuking" themselves.

Unless of course, it already has a name. Please enlighten me if it does.

 

Terisen, can you provide a link to where you got that please? I want to save it in my list of  Cosmere magic descriptions.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Kal Dell

[Terisen]

Certainly.  The source can be found here.  Putting together your own list of these WoB sources isn't a bad idea.  That'd come in handy.  I get hit all the time with quotes I didn't know existed.  Watch, it'll probably happen as I attempt to answer your other items.

 

 

So basically an Allomancer burning Stormlight would go something like this:

 

*Burns Stormlight*

*Powerful Allomantic powers for a couple minutes*

*Poof*

 

What would happen to the conciousness of the Allomancer after burning Stormlight? 

 

Actually, there's still debate on how something like that would work (ie, someone using the fuel for another magic system).  Brandon has said it would take some jury rigging, but it seems that's what Vasher is doing with Stormlight in place of Breath.  Once that's in place, Stormlight would likely act no different for an Allomancer than burning a metal.

 

 

 Vin becomes Preservation when her corporeal body is destroyed. Would an Allomancer burning Stormlight become a Splinter of Honor or just die when they "nuke" themselves? This just opened up a whole new can of worms.

 

You may be confusing the nature of the mists with the nature of Stormlight.  They're both vaporous, but I don't believe that Stormlight is a Shard's body.  It's basically the same as tin or iron (only for the people on Roshar).

Edited June 5, 2014 by Terisen

[Dellexe]

Hmm. I'm pretty sure Stormlight is the vapor form of a Shard. I mean, Vasher uses it as a substitute for Breath, which is the gas form of Endowment, if I recall correctly. Plus it powers Invested objects like Shardplate. Metals on Scadrial just act as focuses for Preservation's power, they don't actually power anything themselves.

I could be wrong, however.

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Which if it is Shard-gas, then an Allomancer would eventually nuke themselves if they burned it for too long.

[A Joe in the Bush]

Vin didn't 'Nuke' Herself. She was specifficly Chosen by Preservation to become the Next Pres. Her Hemalurgic Earing blocked her asencion though. Most allomancers can't burn the Mist.

[Dellexe]

Vin didn't 'Nuke' Herself. She was specifficly Chosen by Preservation to become the Next Pres. Her Hemalurgic Earing blocked her asencion though. Most allomancers can't burn the Mist.

"That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive."

 

This is what I'm referring to. "Nuking" is just my little fun term for this- someone channeling so much of a Shard's power that their physical form vaporizes.

 

My main question is what happens if an Allomancer finds a way to burn another of the Shard's essences-Breath/Stormlight. When their body vaporizes and they "nuke" themselves with the power, what happens to their conciousness? Do they just die or do they gain some fragment of the Shard's power they were burning-maybe becoming a Splinter?

Edited June 5, 2014 by Kal Dell

[MistLord]

Well compounding is basically just using Allomancy to fuel Feruchemy. I was thinking less Vin and more the Lord Ruler. 

[Moogle]

One interesting thing I've noticed: when Vin is using the Mists to fuel her Allomancy she doesn't use any metal as a focus; she burns it as if she's burning metals.

 

The mechanics behind this are interesting, and not at all clear based on the WoB that Terisen posted.

 

We're told that metals act as a focus. The molecular structure forces the Investiture to do one specific thing. So... where's this molecular structure in the Mists?

 

I've previously speculated that using the Mists with the express purpose of powering Allomancy with them would result in a residue of each Allomantic metal being formed inside of you. Then, when you burn the metal, instead of sucking Preservation's essence from your link to it, you instead suck the closer Investiture (Mists) through this residue of metals and get incredible amounts of power.

 

This doesn't seem quite right to me, but I can't think of any direct evidence against it.

 

Another possibility is that each of the powers is hardcoded on the soul, and you can force the Mists through this part of your soul - which means your spiritweb is the "focus". If this is the case, though, why can't you burn any metal and get any Allomantic effect you want? It's all on the Mistborn's spiritweb, after all.

 

I've also heard it mentioned that the molecular structure of metals could possibly be found in the Mists. Sort of like the Mists are actually suspended metal particles, but they're really not.

 

It'd be interesting to learn what sort of jury-rigging is required to use Allomancy via Breath.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Moogle

[Dellexe]

"That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy)"

From how I understand it, the metals act as some kind of filter channeling Preservation's power into Allomancy. When an Allomancer directly accesses the Mists (or theoretically any form of Shardic power) their own body is used as the filter, and they burn in the same way as the metals.

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I could be horribly wrong, but that's my interpretation of the information I've seen.

[king of nowhere]

For some magic you just need a patch, for others you have to install an emulator.

all relevant downloads are available at sww.hoidsecretlair.wh/becomegodlike/addmagics/downloads (that's the shadesmar wide web)

[A Joe in the Bush]

Wouldn't it be CWW? Cosmere Wide? Just Shadesmar would be boring.

[Fallen Rope]

To "Nuke" your self with stormlight wouldn't you need to burn all of the stormlight on Roshar like how Vin burnt all of the mists. Could that mean you would become Honor by taking all the stormlight.

[Ibunnuk]

Just a thought but I believe we have a WOB that scandrial is a low investure planet so if you were burning stormlight, which has s higher level of investure, rather than preservations mists would you become an even more powerful allomancer, be no more powerful but only need to burn a really small amount to have the same effect, or would it just overload you and burn you out? Please note I'm assuming that the person burning the stormlight is already a full power mistborn like the LR or Elend