Jump to content

Trell is not Autonomy, at least not anymore.


Frustration

Recommended Posts

Ok first off Trell is definetly of Odium

Spoiler

zas678

Is it significant that Miles said that the "men of gold and red" would come and rule. Is there a connection between this and the "gold and red" cigar box that Miles keeps The Suit's comings and goings on?

Brandon Sanderson

This is all very significant.

corwin01

Are those men of red and gold of any relation to the priests in the red and gold robes in Warbreaker?

Brandon Sanderson

I really have to RAFO this one. (Sorry.)

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

Notice the mention of Gold it should be noted that Gold is Odium's color, and the corrupted red that he has stolen from other Shards.

Additionally Odium has been active on Scadrial

Spoiler

Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Given that we now know that Odium can 'make it possible' for people to use magic that draws on him on other planets, has he done this anywhere besides Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has been active on all other planets, including several we haven't seen yet.

Rithmatist Denver signing (May 16, 2013)

So we can see Trell is most certainly Odium, but that doesn't mean that Autonomy isn't involved.

Spoiler

Windrunner Savant

Can you give me any information about Trell?

Brandon Sanderson

*written in book*

Trell has been many things over the eons...

Dark Talent release party (Sept. 6, 2016)

Trell was originally an agent/avatar of Autonomy but has since been corrupted to Odium.

Edited by Frustration
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

Notice the mention of Gold it should be noted that Gold is Odium's color, and the corrupted red that he has stolen from other Shards.

Quote

Questioner

Does each Shard have a favorite, or special, number or color?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that there are inclinations but it's not, perhaps, as specific as you are thinking.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

Not everything golden is of Odium, just like not every ambitious people is of Ambition. Aside of Miles Trell's follower didn't seem very Odium to me.

34 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Trell was originally an agent/avatar of Autonomy but has since been corrupted to Odium.

That seems like something that would make Autonomy jump into the war, not to mention impossible to do while shacked to Braize.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Not everything golden is of Odium, just like not every ambitious people is of Ambition. Aside of Miles Trell's follower didn't seem very Odium to me.

Not everything, but Odium has been Gold and Red, with one indication towards stygen-violet, where Autonomy is... lacking.

And if it isn't Odium how is Red and Gold important.

5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That seems like something that would make Autonomy jump into the war, not to mention impossible to do while shacked to Braize.

Well he managed to get nine corrupted splinters while stuck on Braize what is one more?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Well he managed to get nine corrupted splinters while stuck on Braize what is one more?

I'm of the mindset that he actually brought more than 1 Unmade to Roshar with him before getting imprisoned, and that each one is a splinter of a different shard he killed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Halyo_Alex said:

I'm of the mindset that he actually brought more than 1 Unmade to Roshar with him before getting imprisoned, and that each one is a splinter of a different shard he killed.

Well he hasn't killed nine only four.

And BAM at least is definetly of Roshar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Trell was originally an agent/avatar of Autonomy but has since been corrupted to Odium.

Now that would be a plot twist and a half, wouldn't it? I love it. Just Autonomy still works better for me because of bloody Tan's speech - the whole "We're all just puppets, you see?" sounds very autonomous. 

31 minutes ago, mathiau said:

That seems like something that would make Autonomy jump into the war, not to mention impossible to do while shacked to Braize.

If Odium frees himself in the battle of champions, the timeline might work out, depending on how old the Set is and when the thing that Harmony represented as a red mist appeared.

EDIT:

A couple of counterpoints. 

  1. Godmetals take time to form, so for trellium to be an alloy of Autonomy and Odium formed naturally, a lot of time had to have passed somewhere with a corrupted avatar in charge. Manually corrupted atium or lerasium still seems like a better option.
  2. If gold is also Automony's color, then red would just be corrupted Investiture.
  3. Taravangian becoming a better Shard than Harmony in a decade would be strange. Yes, even simple actions can be difficult for Harmony, and yes, Koravellium as a teacher might speed things up, but I still don't like it.
Edited by ScadrianTank
Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not everything, but Odium has been Gold and Red, with one indication towards stygen-violet, where Autonomy is... lacking.

We've seen white for both Devotion and Preservation, black for both Ruin and Dominion and literally every other colours for Endowment

Quote

And if it isn't Odium how is Red and Gold important.

Because Gold looks cool and Red is for corrupted investiture.

Quote

Well he managed to get nine corrupted splinters while stuck on Braize what is one more?

First the Unmade were most likely corrupted before he got stuck (assuming they did get corrupted, we technically don't have confirmation of that though it's almost certain). And second they were most likely native to Roshar.

51 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I'm of the mindset that he actually brought more than 1 Unmade to Roshar with him before getting imprisoned, and that each one is a splinter of a different shard he killed.

Yes but the most likely one for that is the Windrunner Unmade (because the Enlightened Windrunner glyph is the only one not to be of the same colour as the one of it's normal order) but the only conceivable Unmade for the Windrunners it BAM which has basically no chance of not being native to Roshar

48 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

If Odium frees himself in the battle of champions, the timeline might work out, depending on how old the Set is and when the thing that Harmony represented as a red mist appeared.

It doesn't

Quote

"Other Shards I cannot identify, and are hidden to me. I fear that their influence encroaches upon my world,"

Epigraph of chapter 28

Quote

“Also, Wit says to tell him, ‘Deal with your own stupid planet, you idiot. Don’t make me come over there and slap you around again.’”

Chapter 115

Trell and the Set is already active.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, mathiau said:

We've seen white for both Devotion and Preservation, black for both Ruin and Dominion and literally every other colours for Endowment

*color/colour

If I do recall(and I might not it's been a year) Devotion's perpendicularity is blue, and Tears of Edgil are Yellow.

18 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Because Gold looks cool and Red is for corrupted investiture.

Looking cool isn't something I would say is important

20 minutes ago, mathiau said:

It doesn't

Trell and the Set is already active.

Actually that doesn't invalidate it.

Spoiler

Questioner

Is Odium planning to move against Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

He is making plans.

Waygate Foundation Write-a-thon (Jan. 17, 2014)

Just means Odium has moved up his timetables since WoR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Wait, are the Set's motives/methods at all reminiscent of Taravangian? I just realized we might be able to tell from that.

Well Taravangian is not above hiding his motives or co-opting other peoples/groups motives to serve his purpose so I don't think that tells us anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My biggest hesitation on Trell being Odium is that we’re supposedly learning Trell’s identity in The Lost Metal which comes out before Stormlight 5. Seems like a spoiler to learn Odium has already made it off world. Unless if it’s possible to do it through another agent (Fused army?) rather than Odium himself needing to be on Scadrial. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

*color/colour

?

Quote

If I do recall(and I might not it's been a year) Devotion's perpendicularity is blue, and Tears of Edgil are Yellow.

It comes in many colours

Quote

Looking cool isn't something I would say is important

Gold looks cool-> you put gold on your warrior-> people call your guys the golden guys

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Actually that doesn't invalidate it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

Is Odium planning to move against Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

He is making plans.

Waygate Foundation Write-a-thon (Jan. 17, 2014)

Just means Odium has moved up his timetables since WoR

Unless you think there's a possibility there was a Set (a Religious organization) without Trell they yes, it invalidate the exact point I was answering too.

1 hour ago, Andy92 said:

My biggest hesitation on Trell being Odium is that we’re supposedly learning Trell’s identity in The Lost Metal which comes out before Stormlight 5. Seems like a spoiler to learn Odium has already made it off world. Unless if it’s possible to do it through another agent (Fused army?) rather than Odium himself needing to be on Scadrial. 

Also at some point W&W was supposed to happen before SA

Quote

Goron

You've mentioned before that all your books so far are in chronological order (Elantris, the Mistborn trilogy, Warbreaker, Stormlight Archive). Alloy of Law takes place about 200 years after The Hero of Ages. (Right?) Does this put it chronologically before or after Warbreaker?

Brandon Sanderson

The Alloy of Law takes place around 300 years after The Hero of Ages and several hundred years before the events in The Way of Kings. That does put it around the same time as Warbreaker.

Footnote: Brandon has since changed this due to realizing a timeline conflict. The Way of Kings is now in between The Hero of Ages and The Alloy of Law.
Tor.com Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Jan. 10, 2011)

Yes the reason Brandon changed it is a timeline conflict but no it can't be one as big as "I have Odium in W&W but he's not free yet", it's more likely "wait I'm having Roshar enter space age a little to fast if I do it that way"

Edited by mathiau
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, mathiau said:

?

You don't need to pluralise color.

Which is spelled colour in the UK.

16 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Huh, cool

16 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Gold looks cool-> you put gold on your warrior-> people call your guys the golden guys

But I don't see why Brandon would say it's important that they are Red and Gold if looking cool was the only objective.

16 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Also at some point W&W was supposed to happen before SA

Yes the reason Brandon changed it is a timeline conflict but no it can't be one as big as "I have Odium in W&W but he's not free yet", it's more likely "wait I'm having Roshar enter space age a little to fast if I do it that way"

Well not Odium himself, just a splinter.

And AoL was supposed to be a standalone

Edited by Frustration
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

You don't need to pluralise color.

Which is spelled colour in the UK.

First, why? Is this an exception I forgot or is there a weird rule?

Also I've seen Brandon pluralise it many times

Quote

But I don't see why Brandon would say it's important that they are Red and Gold if looking cool was the only objective.

He did not, he said that the gold and red box was related to the gold and red men in a very significant way, the fact they're both gold and red could just be a motif of the Set that comes from the fact that red and gold looks good together

Quote

Well not Odium himself, just a splinter.

So you're going with the assumption that Trellagism's Trell was already corrupted and that for some reason Ambition is not trying to avenge have one of the Bavatars corrupted?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, mathiau said:

First, why? Is this an exception I forgot or is there a weird rule?

Because you already plualised it with 'every'

"I've been to every store in town."

versus

"I've been to all the stores in town"

It's an odd rule more to do with how it sounds than anything.

5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

He did not, he said that the gold and red box was related to the gold and red men in a very significant way, the fact they're both gold and red could just be a motif of the Set that comes from the fact that red and gold looks good together

That's not how I read it but ok.

7 minutes ago, mathiau said:

So you're going with the assumption that Trellagism's Trell was already corrupted and that for some reason Ambition is not trying to avenge have one of the Bavatars corrupted?

Not neccesarily the first one, in fact I'd say that Trell from pre-era one was pure Autonomy, but that in recent times has been corrupted.

Autonomy seems to be of mixed opinions about Odium, even going so far as to say some of the Avatars would have been at least intrested in opposing Odium if Hoid had asked them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems almost impossible for it not to be an avatar of Autonomy given that it is a Shard, but not one of the Shardholders. But that doesn't mean that Trell is the only force that's part of the attempted take over. Based on the red & gold allusions I think it more likely there's a collaboration against Harmony post-RoW rather than Trell being an unmade on steroids.

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Are all the original sixteen Shardholders from Yolen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*With a smirk* Trell is not native to Yolen.

Shadows of Self San Diego signing (Oct. 8, 2015)

 

 

 

 

 

 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Every Shard can have avatars

Technically...?

 

Quote

 

The Dusty Wheel

Do any other Shards utilize avatars the way Autonomy does?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh... they have in the past, I can't say for sure if they are doing so now or not.

The Dusty Wheel Interview (April 1, 2020)

 

 

 

But Brandon has eliminated every shard aside from Autonomy, Cultivation, and Odium. Odium has been bound in the Rosharan system, and is ideologically opposed to there being more Shardic forces. Autonomy is the only one known to have made avatars. I guess we could put forward the idea that Cultivation has been sending avatars to Scadrial for thousands of years if you really want, but it doesn't really make sense within the story to me whereas Autonomy's proclivity to create avatars has been intentionally mentioned in the books for a reason.

I am persuaded that Odium is involved, but am unpersuaded that Odium would invest further to the point that he'd functionally hi-jack an Avatar to create an Unmade that's powerful enough to challenge a Shard, which would effectively be declaring war on Autonomy while creating a new rival. The simplest explanation seems to be that they have an alliance of convenience and have for some time based on these and your quoted WoBs:

 

Quote

 

Moridin997 (paraphrased)

Did Bavadin in any way help Odium splinter Dominion and Devotion?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Uhh...

Moridin997 (paraphrased)

(sensing an incoming RAFO): In any way...

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Uhh... Yes... Yes, you could say that...

Lisbon signing (Nov. 7, 2016)

 

 

 

Quote

 

WinespringBrother

Well, would one eliminate the other one? But more towards Autonomy trying to break up--

Brandon Sanderson

To break up Unity. It's so hard to say, because Autonomy is a bit of a strange duck. Like, what counts as being Autonomous? Is absorbing everything and becoming one again Autonomous or not? That's kind of your question that you get into. And the way Autonomy looks at it right now, is no. Autonomy wants to remain Autonomy. Autonomy does not want to be corrupted by anything else. And Autonomy would think the Shards are better on their own. But is this a natural effect, or part of the-- Does that make sense?

WinespringBrother

Well, but it's also along the lines of, Odium wants to break up the other ones, so they don't--

Brandon Sanderson

Odium just wants to be top dog. And your two ways to be top dog are to climb higher, or to lower everyone else. And he's like, we're gonna lower everyone else. Because I know, if I combine, it stops being me, is what his opinion is. I would no longer be the person I am. I would change into someone else. And then that person gets to rule, and I don't want that person to rule. I want to.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

 

 

 

Quote

 

Khyrindor

Odium seems to have a bad track record when it comes to killing Shards. He was wounded versus Ambition, and he's trapped on Roshar. Yet, he's credited in killing Devotion and Dominion. My question is: was Autonomy significantly involved and would Odium have been able to do it on his own and still be okay to--

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. It is dangerous to attack a Shard with one Shard. Let's say that. And a wise Shard would try to avoid that confrontation unless there are specific reasons they think they would have an advantage.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

 

Edited by Proletariat
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Proletariat said:

Technically...?

 

 

 

But Brandon has eliminated every shard aside from Autonomy, Cultivation, and Odium. Odium has been bound in the Rosharan system, and is ideologically opposed to there being more Shardic forces. Autonomy is the only one known to have made avatars. I guess we could put forward the idea that Cultivation has been sending avatars to Scadrial for thousands of years if you really want, but it doesn't really make sense within the story to me whereas Autonomy's proclivity to create avatars has been intentionally mentioned in the books for a reason.

I am persuaded that Odium is involved, but am unpersuaded that Odium would invest further to the point that he'd functionally hi-jack an Avatar to create an Unmade that's powerful enough to challenge a Shard, which would effectively be declaring war on Autonomy. The simplest explanation seems to be that they have an alliance of convenience and have for some time based on these and your quoted WoBs:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Doesn't have to be an avatar either, splinters work just as well

And challenging Hramony isn't that difficult, he can't do much.

An alliance with Rayse, not neccesarilly Taravangian, or one that doesn't involve Sacrifice.

Or it just says in any way, if Odium used a corrupted avatar of Autonomy that works to, there are a lot of ways that works.

This should also be noted

Spoiler

Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Given that we now know that Odium can 'make it possible' for people to use magic that draws on him on other planets, has he done this anywhere besides Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has been active on all other planets, including several we haven't seen yet.

Rithmatist Denver signing (May 16, 2013)

 

Edited by Frustration
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Doesn't have to be an avatar either, splinters work just as well

And challenging Hramony isn't that difficult, he can't do much.

An alliance with Rayse, not neccesarilly Taravangian, or one that doesn't involve Sacrifice.

Or it just says in any way, if Odium used a corrupted avatar of Autonomy that works to, there are a lot of ways that works.

This should also be noted

  Hide contents

Kogiopsis (paraphrased)

Given that we now know that Odium can 'make it possible' for people to use magic that draws on him on other planets, has he done this anywhere besides Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Odium has been active on all other planets, including several we haven't seen yet.

Rithmatist Denver signing (May 16, 2013)

 

Sure, but Odium is actively averse to splintering his investiture so that he is not diminished as cited in the WoB.

And Harmony is not the most pro-active Shard, but that's not the point. The point is that Odium is not likely to create a powerful being that is a threat to his hegemony, and creating an Avatar or Splinter of significance, would be doing do that at his own expense. Meanwhile corrupting the Avatar of Autonomy would be starting a simultaneous conflict with them. Challenging Autonomy and Harmony at the same time seems unwise.

This isn't to say that your thesis is impossible. Most things are possible in a story, and it's not an idea without merit. But it doesn't seem to the most plausible fit in this scenario. The most plausible being an alliance of convenience between Shards. What we do know from WoBs and also the set up from the early excerpts of the next Aviar story, is that there will be a conflict between Roshar and Scadrial, that Odium wants to move against Harmony, and Odium and Autonomy have collaborated in the past. Anything further than that is us taking guesses on the terms of the relationship between Odium, Harmony, and Autonomy without much to go off and we just have to accept that we don't have much to go off yet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 29/05/2021 at 1:43 AM, Frustration said:

Because you already plualised it with 'every'

"I've been to every store in town."

versus

"I've been to all the stores in town"

It's an odd rule more to do with how it sounds than anything.

Good to know

Quote

Not neccesarily the first one, in fact I'd say that Trell from pre-era one was pure Autonomy, but that in recent times has been corrupted.

Pre-era was after the False Desolation, there's no way Odium would have corrupted Trell while in Braize

Quote

Autonomy seems to be of mixed opinions about Odium, even going so far as to say some of the Avatars would have been at least intrested in opposing Odium if Hoid had asked them.

He said some might be interested, which is indeed something but if Odium had corrupted one of the Bavatars then Bavadin wouldn't have needed Wit to ask her to move agaist Odium, she'd have done it on her own.

On 29/05/2021 at 4:23 AM, Proletariat said:

It seems almost impossible for it not to be an avatar of Autonomy given that it is a Shard, but not one of the Shardholders. But that doesn't mean that Trell is the only force that's part of the attempted take over. Based on the red & gold allusions I think it more likely there's a collaboration against Harmony post-RoW rather than Trell being an unmade on steroids.

Is Trell confirmed to be a Shard?

On 29/05/2021 at 4:50 AM, Proletariat said:

But Brandon has eliminated every shard aside from Autonomy, Cultivation, and Odium. Odium has been bound in the Rosharan system, and is ideologically opposed to there being more Shardic forces. Autonomy is the only one known to have made avatars. I guess we could put forward the idea that Cultivation has been sending avatars to Scadrial for thousands of years if you really want, but it doesn't really make sense within the story to me whereas Autonomy's proclivity to create avatars has been intentionally mentioned in the books for a reason.

Note that creating a group of people trying to overthrow a planet's God would be a completely Cultivation approved way to conquer a planet, using the colours usually associated to another God to throw confusion would most likely be fine too. Destroying it might be less so though, but then again she might consider it similar to removing a sick tree so it doesn't contaminate the other

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/30/2021 at 8:56 AM, mathiau said:

]Pre-era was after the False Desolation, there's no way Odium would have corrupted Trell while in Braize

Well Trell can definatly worldhop so that isn't much of a problem

On 5/30/2021 at 8:56 AM, mathiau said:

He said some might be interested, which is indeed something but if Odium had corrupted one of the Bavatars then Bavadin wouldn't have needed Wit to ask her to move agaist Odium, she'd have done it on her own.

That's a bit of a strong statement given we know next to nothing about Bavadin

On 5/30/2021 at 8:56 AM, mathiau said:

Is Trell confirmed to be a Shard?

Related to a specific shard and one of the pre RoW ones

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...