Honor's Death- Before or After?

[Aspiring Writer]

I'm back! Really hope I get new ideas sooner than a few months, but you can't rush genius!

Real talk, though, Honor's death and the Recreance in the timeline are a bit murky, especially since people are now saying 'the recreance took place over many years', which yes, many years led up to it, but there was one event where all the radiants decided to unbond their spren (Unless there was at first a small portion of radiants that decided to unbond their spren at first to send a message to the rest of the radiants in bit by bit, several groups started to follow their lead. That would explain how, in the vision of the men leaving their blades, assuming that is following reality, why they did it in front of a fort rather than literally anywhere else. They were making a show of it. Something to think about. Now back to the main topic).

So, there is a theory that Honor's death is part of why spren, when unbonded, turn into dead eyes, rather than Bam's capture. However, this cannot be the case. For one, the reason the recreance happened was because Honor told them they would do to Roshar what they did to Ashyn, so already we know Honor was alive, if mad, when the Recreance would be beginning (or what lead up to it, more accurately.) Now, maybe Honor dead after this and then the Recreance happened. But then why does Honor have a vision of it happening? He must have been alive then, meaning that the problem with spren didn't happen because of Honor's death. 

This is mostly me trying to spark discussion and splurge my thoughts on screen so I can compile them somewhere, please comment on this, I feel there is something missing or that I should add, but I don't know what.

[ElMonoEstupendo]

I believe the way it's presented to us is:

False Desolation -> Radiants Leave Urithiru -> Binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram -> Recreance -> Death of Tanavast/Splintering of Honor -> Scouring of Aimia

All in relatively short order. Unless we're to take it as a coincidence, there must be causal links between them. I have... a theory!

There's a few suspect timings involved:

1. When the Radiants leave Urithiru, it's because things have started to go wrong with the Tower. Some think the Sibling has withdrawn from them, but there's this recording:

   Quote

   1-1 First Zircon "My research into the cognitive reflections of the spren at the tower has been deeply illustrative. Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent but I find counter to that theory."

   Plus the testimony of the Sibling itself about gradually losing its Towerlight. Things were shifting due to something happening with the False Desolation, and it may have been changing Honor himself:

   Quote

   24-18 Smokestone

   "This generation has had only one Bondsmith, and some blame the divisions among us upon this fact. The true problem is far deeper. I believe that Honor himself is changing."

   I think Ba-Ado-Mishram Connecting with the singers and doling out Voidlight was adding more and more of Odium's power to Roshar, bringing in his true tone and causing the others to shift in an attempt to harmonise with it. Cultivation could handle it, but ol' Adherence couldn't and started going mad and losing control. He tries to keep his tone the same as it always was, refusing harmony, and so the Sibling starts to lose track of it and the Towerlight fails.

2. When the Radiants leave, they already have a plan for capturing Ba-Ado-Mishram, but there's no recording that's obviously from after the capture. Did they leave knowing that the capture would render Urithiru inert or worse? For that matter, was the Sibling a deadeye? Melishi must have been alive and in possession of her powers when BAM was Bound. Then, when the Unmade was captured, what happened to all the Investiture she had in the singers - it must have gone into Roshar, a big jolt change that suddenly ripped up everything.

3. Dalinar's vision at Feverstone Keep indicates that they thought fighting was still happening when the Recreance occurred - but if the singers were stunted when BAM was captured, how is that possible? The Radiants about to abandon their Shards walked back to the Keep. It must have happened on the very same day as the Binding. I'd go a step further and suggest that it wasn't the Recreance itself that deadeyed the spren but rather BAM's Binding, but we know for a fact that oathbreaking does it now because of Testament. So BAM perhaps changed the nature of the Nahel bond, through some small-c or big-C connection to Roshar.

4. Tanavast dies and Honor gets Splintered shortly after the Towerlight stops - we know because the Sibling says as much. What I wonder is, was it Odium that did these things himself and how? He was confined to Braize at the time.

5. There's Shardplate in the hidden rooms on Akinah, so the CHANGE Dawnshard was available until after the Recreance. Was it used on Ba-Ado-Mishram?

So yeah, my theory is that Odium becoming Invested in Roshar via BAM is what drove Tanavast mad, stunted the Sibling, and changed the Nahel bond to something very dangerous. The endgame is harmony between all three powers (Rosharlight?), and TOdium is a step towards that. The most critical ingredient will be a Vessel of Honor that can compromise, where Tanavast (and Rayse) couldn't. Dalinar's already shown a facility with bending the rules with what he does with the Stormfather, and Taravangian was the King of compromise. Cultivation's been playing the ultra-long game.

Edited May 2, 2021 by ElMonoEstupendo

[Bejarden]

I think it works like this:

Honor starts to Splinter< False Desalation< Sibling gets insulted and retreats slightly< BAM is captured< Sibling retreats completely and Honor can’t help it< Recreance over many weeks<Tanavast is splintered and his CS goes to the Stormfather 

The Sibling retreating and the Recreance probably started the same time, but the Recreance took longer.

[+mdross81]

3 hours ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

I believe the way it's presented to us is:

False Desolation -> Radiants Leave Urithiru -> Binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram -> Recreance -> Death of Tanavast/Splintering of Honor -> Scouring of Aimia

This seems like the correct order to me. And you have an interesting idea about the concurrent issue of Honor himself changing.

I have an alternate explanation about the changes in Honor. I think that the False Desolation laid bare (to the extent that it was not already known/suspected) to the Knights Radiant the fact that the Heralds had lied at Aharietiam.

I think that the Heralds walking away from the Oathpact must have had some initial impact on Honor, but that it was limited because those who knew (the Shin at least) kept the Heralds’ secret.

But when Voidspren and Regals show up again, empowered by the Unmade, it’s impossible to maintain the lie. I mean Nale and Kalak show up in person for the imprisonment of BAM, and I’ll be shocked if Melishi wasn’t at least acting on Ishar’s behalf.

We know perceptions matter and can have a big impact on Roshar. So I think the changing perception of the Heralds may have been partly responsible for the changes in Honor. 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

We actually have a WoB on this bit of the timeline:

Quote

Questioner

Dalinar's visions are the memories of Honor, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Yes, they are things specifically created by Honor...

Questioner

Does that mean that the Recreance happened before Honor's death... since Dalinar sees it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. But Honor's death, like Preservation's death, is a protracted event.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

[TheCruelSadist]

On 5/2/2021 at 3:24 AM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

I believe the way it's presented to us is:

False Desolation -> Radiants Leave Urithiru -> Binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram -> Recreance -> Death of Tanavast/Splintering of Honor -> Scouring of Aimia

All in relatively short order. Unless we're to take it as a coincidence, there must be causal links between them. I have... a theory!

There's a few suspect timings involved:

1. When the Radiants leave Urithiru, it's because things have started to go wrong with the Tower. Some think the Sibling has withdrawn from them, but there's this recording:

   Plus the testimony of the Sibling itself about gradually losing its Towerlight. Things were shifting due to something happening with the False Desolation, and it may have been changing Honor himself:

   I think Ba-Ado-Mishram Connecting with the singers and doling out Voidlight was adding more and more of Odium's power to Roshar, bringing in his true tone and causing the others to shift in an attempt to harmonise with it. Cultivation could handle it, but ol' Adherence couldn't and started going mad and losing control. He tries to keep his tone the same as it always was, refusing harmony, and so the Sibling starts to lose track of it and the Towerlight fails.

2. When the Radiants leave, they already have a plan for capturing Ba-Ado-Mishram, but there's no recording that's obviously from after the capture. Did they leave knowing that the capture would render Urithiru inert or worse? For that matter, was the Sibling a deadeye? Melishi must have been alive and in possession of her powers when BAM was Bound. Then, when the Unmade was captured, what happened to all the Investiture she had in the singers - it must have gone into Roshar, a big jolt change that suddenly ripped up everything.

3. Dalinar's vision at Feverstone Keep indicates that they thought fighting was still happening when the Recreance occurred - but if the singers were stunted when BAM was captured, how is that possible? The Radiants about to abandon their Shards walked back to the Keep. It must have happened on the very same day as the Binding. I'd go a step further and suggest that it wasn't the Recreance itself that deadeyed the spren but rather BAM's Binding, but we know for a fact that oathbreaking does it now because of Testament. So BAM perhaps changed the nature of the Nahel bond, through some small-c or big-C connection to Roshar.

4. Tanavast dies and Honor gets Splintered shortly after the Towerlight stops - we know because the Sibling says as much. What I wonder is, was it Odium that did these things himself and how? He was confined to Braize at the time.

5. There's Shardplate in the hidden rooms on Akinah, so the CHANGE Dawnshard was available until after the Recreance. Was it used on Ba-Ado-Mishram?

So yeah, my theory is that Odium becoming Invested in Roshar via BAM is what drove Tanavast mad, stunted the Sibling, and changed the Nahel bond to something very dangerous. The endgame is harmony between all three powers (Rosharlight?), and TOdium is a step towards that. The most critical ingredient will be a Vessel of Honor that can compromise, where Tanavast (and Rayse) couldn't. Dalinar's already shown a facility with bending the rules with what he does with the Stormfather, and Taravangian was the King of compromise. Cultivation's been playing the ultra-long game.

I think this is simply the result of their decision to stop Surgebinding.  Can't exactly be doing the right thing by flying or teleporting back if you're certain that doing so is bad for the planet.  Great post, though. 

Someone else theorized that Kora intends for Adult Lift to take her Shard (since she's the third person we know Kora influenced and the other two have taken up Odium and the remnants of Honor), which could be to adjust for how the power has bound her - perhaps whatever she's planning for can only be accomplished by a trio of relatively new Vessels.

Now I'm going to play Devil's Advocate and remind you all that Honor had -some- capacity for future sight, meaning Brandon could theoretically have Tanavast start dying as soon as the Heralds' betrayal of Taln became inevitable (since that's the point at which his future ceased to be uncertain).  I've typed and deleted at least 3 paragraphs trying to explain how that works, but I can't figure out how to simplify it.  Basically, beings which exist outside of time and space are weird.  [I wasted half an hour thinking this through before remembering that the spren do this "once it happened, it always was" kind of crap all the time, and you've all likely accepted it even if you don't understand it.  Oh well.]

[Stonerward]

I always thought that the failing of Urithiru was due to the Sibling not being able to hear Honor's pure tone after he died so in my head the death of Tavanast / Splintering of Honor happened prior to Urithu failing. 

[AquaRegia]

Everything in @ElMonoEstupendo 's post sounds right to me, and I really like this: 

On 5/2/2021 at 6:24 AM, ElMonoEstupendo said:

I think Ba-Ado-Mishram Connecting with the singers and doling out Voidlight was adding more and more of Odium's power to Roshar, bringing in his true tone and causing the others to shift in an attempt to harmonise with it. Cultivation could handle it, but ol' Adherence couldn't and started going mad and losing control. He tries to keep his tone the same as it always was, refusing harmony, and so the Sibling starts to lose track of it and the Towerlight fails.

Speculative, sure... but it makes a lot of sense.  Well done.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 5/11/2021 at 9:17 AM, Stonerward said:

I always thought that the failing of Urithiru was due to the Sibling not being able to hear Honor's pure tone after he died so in my head the death of Tavanast / Splintering of Honor happened prior to Urithu failing. 

Sibling no longer being able to make their Light was due to Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture, though Honor was losing his mind and died not too long after.

Quote

The Sibling fell silent for a time, and Navani wondered if she had pushed the spren too far. Fortunately they spoke again, softly. I have … been wounded. Thousands of years ago, something happened that changed the singers. It hurt me too.

Navani covered her shock. “You’re speaking of the binding of that Unmade, which made the singers lose their forms?”

Yes. That terrible act touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too.

“How have no spren mentioned this?”

I don’t know. But I lost the rhythm of my Light that day. The tower stopped working. My father, Honor, should have been able to help me, but he was losing his mind. And he soon died …

[Stonerward]

On 5/16/2021 at 4:10 PM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Sibling no longer being able to make their Light was due to Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture, though Honor was losing his mind and died not too long after.

Ahh I forgot about that, good luck to whoever has to keep a track of that timeline there's a whole lot of stuff going on around the recreance 

[apepi]

I personally think Honor lied/broke an oath, which led him to get weak/die to Odium.