_Captain Posted April 21, 2021 Posted April 21, 2021 I might just be dumb and am missing something, but I'm curious as to where the original humans came from. Especially because the humans on Scadrial and Roshar seem to be anatomically similar. My first thought was that they were from Scadrial and that was the planet they destroyed, but it was Preservation in his first moments of power.
Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him Posted April 21, 2021 Posted April 21, 2021 24 minutes ago, _Captain said: I might just be dumb and am missing something, but I'm curious as to where the original humans came from. Especially because the humans on Scadrial and Roshar seem to be anatomically similar. My first thought was that they were from Scadrial and that was the planet they destroyed, but it was Preservation in his first moments of power. No it wasn’t scadrial, it was Ashyn, a planet in the Rosharan system
Weltall Posted April 21, 2021 Posted April 21, 2021 (edited) Humanity first arose on Yolen. Scadrians were created based on the Yolish humans and the planet itself was modeled after the non-fain bits of Yolen, which is why it's the Cosmere's Earth-analogue. Khriss mentions all of this in Arcanum Unbounded and we've had WoBs saying the same things before then. Most other groups of humans predate the Shattering though it's not clear whether Adonalsium settled groups of humans from Yolen or if they were created in-place based on the Yolish template (or a mix of both) but we know for sure that almost all worlds in the Cosmere were inhabited before the Shattering. The majority of Rosharan humans originally came from Ashyn, though some like the Iriali were later arrivals from... somewhere else. Edited April 21, 2021 by Weltall 3
Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him Posted April 21, 2021 Posted April 21, 2021 34 minutes ago, Weltall said: Humanity first arose on Yolen. Scadrians were created based on the Yolish humans and the planet itself was modeled after the non-fain bits of Yolen, which is why it's the Cosmere's Earth-analogue. Khriss mentions all of this in Arcanum Unbounded and we've had WoBs saying the same things before then. Most other groups of humans predate the Shattering though it's not clear whether Adonalsium settled groups of humans from Yolen or if they were created in-place based on the Yolish template (or a mix of both) but we know for sure that almost all worlds in the Cosmere were inhabited before the Shattering. The majority of Rosharan humans originally came from Ashyn, though some like the Iriali were later arrivals from... somewhere else. the people from Iriali might have gone through Three planets before coming to Roshar, maybe one of them was Ashyn maybe there they had helped destroy Ashyn? but what of the other two any theories?
Weltall Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 33 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said: the people from Iriali might have gone through Three planets before coming to Roshar, maybe one of them was Ashyn maybe there they had helped destroy Ashyn? but what of the other two any theories? All we know for sure is that Braize was definitely not one of the worlds and neither was Ashyn. We know that Odium manipulated the Ashynites into experimenting with the Surges and Ishar was the first person tricked into doing so, per RoW. Questions about whether the Iriali spent time on Taldain, Scadrial or Nalthis have all been met with RAFOs. We know that most people would say they have some nonhuman ancestry which gives us at least some information that one world they spent time on must have had a non-human but biologically compatible species. Of course, that's most species so it doesn't tell us that much. About all else that we know is that their belief in the One has echoes of the Shattering but there are more recent events (that they don't really remember the details of either) which are more relevant. Brandon has said that it's a story we should expect to see more of as we get more space travel.
Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 1 minute ago, Weltall said: All we know for sure is that Braize was definitely not one of the worlds and neither was Ashyn. We know that Odium manipulated the Ashynites into experimenting with the Surges and Ishar was the first person tricked into doing so, per RoW. Questions about whether the Iriali spent time on Taldain, Scadrial or Nalthis have all been met with RAFOs. We know that most people would say they have some nonhuman ancestry which gives us at least some information that one world they spent time on must have had a non-human but biologically compatible species. Of course, that's most species so it doesn't tell us that much. About all else that we know is that their belief in the One has echoes of the Shattering but there are more recent events (that they don't really remember the details of either) which are more relevant. Brandon has said that it's a story we should expect to see more of as we get more space travel. what if they are part Sho-Del I think that's how it's spelled anyway, they are a species on Yolen, if not that then Cremling.
Weltall Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 16 hours ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said: what if they are part Sho-Del I think that's how it's spelled anyway, they are a species on Yolen, if not that then Cremling. I'm pretty sure that cremlings (non-sapient and generally very small) are not biologically compatible with humans. Maybe you're thinking of the Sleepless, but I don't think they're compatible with other species either, seeing how they reproduce and the realmatics of a Sleepless/Human hybrid would be storming weird. Sho Del would be more possible, but I'm inclined to suspect something else is up. Brandon did say that 'most' people would say the Iriali have non-human ancestry somewhere in their genetic tree which leads me to suspect that the non-human ancestry must be at least possible to mistake for human if there are some people who would think of their ancestry as entirely human. Since Brandon has said that Hoid and Steel Inquisitors wouldn't be considered entirely human anymore, it could be as simple as there being a few individuals with similar sDNA alteration in the genetic tree. Or if you want to go full crack theorizing, the Iriali ancestry includes one or more dragons, who can assume human form and who are known to have some metallic features to their appearance even when shapeshifted. Okay, Frost's eyes are described as silver rather than gold but throw in some genetic shenanigans and it could explain the Iriali's metallic gold hair.
+Child of Hodor Posted April 22, 2021 Posted April 22, 2021 47 minutes ago, Weltall said: Brandon did say that 'most' people would say the Iriali have non-human ancestry somewhere in their genetic tree which leads me to suspect that the non-human ancestry must be at least possible to mistake for human if there are some people who would think of their ancestry as entirely human. The Iriali are a whole thing. It's fun to guess at what the 3 prior planets they were on. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Iri My guess is they were originally mostly humans and some dragons (who can shapeshift into humans) from Yolen, Nalthis and Sel. Yolen the first, the other two I'm not sure, leaning towards Sel second. Nalthis Iri's neighbor, Rira are related to the Iriali. Rira split off from Iri politically and genetically most people living there are related at least somewhat to the Iriali. Evi was one such person. This is why the Iriali say Dalinar stole the shardplate, it can be traced back to Iri through Rira. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Rira_(country) Anyways, Evi says some weird color idioms that make no sense to Dalinar "life will be as white as a sun at night" OB Ch. 36. Much like Zahel's many saying involving color confuse Kaladin "green from the ground" etc. It's not a lot to go on, but she makes color metaphors because people around her growing up did and I think that's because the Iriali spent time on Nalthi and these idioms were passed down. Sel (original Elantrians) 1) The name of their current country is Iri. In Mistborn: SH book we meet worldhoppers from Sel called the Ire. I am not saying these are the same group. However, this is either a deliberate mislead or a hint. I mean, come on! They call themselves a similar thing because the Iriali were on Sel long enough to incorporate the language of Sel and there are still traces of it in modern Iriali culture. 2) Names. A big thing about Sel and Elantris in particular is the Aon Dor and all the Aons. Each Aon is three letters. We don't know many Iriali related names, but we know a few like Iri, Evi her brother Toh. This seems like something the Iriali picked up from spending time on Sel. 3) Empty Elantris. The modern Elantrians from the period the book Elantris takes place in are descended from people who found the city of Elantris fully built and completely empty. They did not build it and don't know who did. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Elantris_(city)#Discovery. Maybe something wiped out everyone living in Elantris without a trace. Or maybe they left in a mass migration that is part of their The Long Trail religion because they were the people we now know of as the Iriali.
Thaidakar the Ghostblood he/him Posted April 23, 2021 Posted April 23, 2021 On 4/22/2021 at 11:03 AM, Child of Hodor said: The Iriali are a whole thing. It's fun to guess at what the 3 prior planets they were on. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Iri My guess is they were originally mostly humans and some dragons (who can shapeshift into humans) from Yolen, Nalthis and Sel. Yolen the first, the other two I'm not sure, leaning towards Sel second. Nalthis Iri's neighbor, Rira are related to the Iriali. Rira split off from Iri politically and genetically most people living there are related at least somewhat to the Iriali. Evi was one such person. This is why the Iriali say Dalinar stole the shardplate, it can be traced back to Iri through Rira. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Rira_(country) Anyways, Evi says some weird color idioms that make no sense to Dalinar "life will be as white as a sun at night" OB Ch. 36. Much like Zahel's many saying involving color confuse Kaladin "green from the ground" etc. It's not a lot to go on, but she makes color metaphors because people around her growing up did and I think that's because the Iriali spent time on Nalthi and these idioms were passed down. Sel (original Elantrians) 1) The name of their current country is Iri. In Mistborn: SH book we meet worldhoppers from Sel called the Ire. I am not saying these are the same group. However, this is either a deliberate mislead or a hint. I mean, come on! They call themselves a similar thing because the Iriali were on Sel long enough to incorporate the language of Sel and there are still traces of it in modern Iriali culture. 2) Names. A big thing about Sel and Elantris in particular is the Aon Dor and all the Aons. Each Aon is three letters. We don't know many Iriali related names, but we know a few like Iri, Evi her brother Toh. This seems like something the Iriali picked up from spending time on Sel. 3) Empty Elantris. The modern Elantrians from the period the book Elantris takes place in are descended from people who found the city of Elantris fully built and completely empty. They did not build it and don't know who did. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Elantris_(city)#Discovery. Maybe something wiped out everyone living in Elantris without a trace. Or maybe they left in a mass migration that is part of their The Long Trail religion because they were the people we now know of as the Iriali. very interesting. but could the "life will be as white as a sun at night" in OB Ch. 36. be a reference to Shadesmar and it's white sun?
mathiau he/him Posted April 23, 2021 Posted April 23, 2021 (edited) On 22/04/2021 at 1:04 AM, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said: the people from Iriali might have gone through Three planets before coming to Roshar, maybe one of them was Ashyn maybe there they had helped destroy Ashyn? but what of the other two any theories? Note that we're not sure the seven lands are all planets, some could be weirder things like Silverlight or whatever Vax is We're not even sure they're seven distinct places On 22/04/2021 at 6:42 PM, Weltall said: I'm pretty sure that cremlings (non-sapient and generally very small) are not biologically compatible with humans. Maybe you're thinking of the Sleepless, but I don't think they're compatible with other species either, seeing how they reproduce and the realmatics of a Sleepless/Human hybrid would be storming weird. Sho Del would be more possible, but I'm inclined to suspect something else is up. Sho-Del are not cremlings, they're fainlife which is probably even less compatible Quote Brandon did say that 'most' people would say the Iriali have non-human ancestry somewhere in their genetic tree which leads me to suspect that the non-human ancestry must be at least possible to mistake for human if there are some people who would think of their ancestry as entirely human. Since Brandon has said that Hoid and Steel Inquisitors wouldn't be considered entirely human anymore, it could be as simple as there being a few individuals with similar sDNA alteration in the genetic tree. Or if you want to go full crack theorizing, the Iriali ancestry includes one or more dragons, who can assume human form and who are known to have some metallic features to their appearance even when shapeshifted. Okay, Frost's eyes are described as silver rather than gold but throw in some genetic shenanigans and it could explain the Iriali's metallic gold hair. I don't know, from that WoB saying Hoid isn't human is like saying Neanderthals were not humans, which most people won't. Frost isn't the only dragon maybe some have golden eyes. And maybe Frost is kind of like an albinos dragon and his descendant would have normal pigmentation On 22/04/2021 at 8:03 PM, Child of Hodor said: The Iriali are a whole thing. It's fun to guess at what the 3 prior planets they were on. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Iri My guess is they were originally mostly humans and some dragons (who can shapeshift into humans) from Yolen, Nalthis and Sel. Yolen the first, the other two I'm not sure, leaning towards Sel second. Nalthis Iri's neighbor, Rira are related to the Iriali. Rira split off from Iri politically and genetically most people living there are related at least somewhat to the Iriali. Evi was one such person. This is why the Iriali say Dalinar stole the shardplate, it can be traced back to Iri through Rira. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Rira_(country) Anyways, Evi says some weird color idioms that make no sense to Dalinar "life will be as white as a sun at night" OB Ch. 36. Much like Zahel's many saying involving color confuse Kaladin "green from the ground" etc. It's not a lot to go on, but she makes color metaphors because people around her growing up did and I think that's because the Iriali spent time on Nalthi and these idioms were passed down. I don't know, seems to me like we should search a place were there's sometime is a sun during the day, like Silverlight for example Quote Sel (original Elantrians) 1) The name of their current country is Iri. In Mistborn: SH book we meet worldhoppers from Sel called the Ire. I am not saying these are the same group. However, this is either a deliberate mislead or a hint. I mean, come on! They call themselves a similar thing because the Iriali were on Sel long enough to incorporate the language of Sel and there are still traces of it in modern Iriali culture. 2) Names. A big thing about Sel and Elantris in particular is the Aon Dor and all the Aons. Each Aon is three letters. We don't know many Iriali related names, but we know a few like Iri, Evi her brother Toh. This seems like something the Iriali picked up from spending time on Sel. 3) Empty Elantris. The modern Elantrians from the period the book Elantris takes place in are descended from people who found the city of Elantris fully built and completely empty. They did not build it and don't know who did. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Elantris_(city)#Discovery. Maybe something wiped out everyone living in Elantris without a trace. Or maybe they left in a mass migration that is part of their The Long Trail religion because they were the people we now know of as the Iriali. My main issue with that is that Ashynites already have the exact same connection to Sel, I think it'd make a lot of Rosharan coming from Sel if both did. Edited April 24, 2021 by mathiau
Weltall Posted April 24, 2021 Posted April 24, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, mathiau said: Sho-Del are not cremlings, they're fainlife which is probably even less compatible Yeah, I know that. I was reacting to the suggestion the Iriali might be part-cremling, then talked about the Sho Del afterwards. As for them, they may be fainlife but they're at least humanoid, which makes them rather more likely to be compatible with humans than cremlings. Edited April 24, 2021 by Weltall Because apparently I can't read today...
mathiau he/him Posted April 24, 2021 Posted April 24, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Weltall said: Yeah, I know that. I was reacting to the fact that you suggested the Iriali might be part-cremling, then talked about the Sho Del afterwards. As for them, they may be fainlife but they're at least humanoid, which makes them rather more likely to be compatible with humans than cremlings. For some reason, I had missed that part of @Thaidakar the Ghostblood's sentence. (who by the way is not me) Edited April 24, 2021 by mathiau
Weltall Posted April 24, 2021 Posted April 24, 2021 54 minutes ago, mathiau said: For some reason, I had missed that part of @Thaidakar the Ghostblood's sentence. (who by the way is not me) Whoops, for some reason I got my wires crossed there...
Leuthie Posted April 26, 2021 Posted April 26, 2021 On 4/23/2021 at 4:16 PM, mathiau said: My main issue with that is that Ashynites already have the exact same connection to Sel, I think it'd make a lot of Rosharan coming from Sel if both did. Please explain? How do Ashynites have a connection to Sel?
mathiau he/him Posted April 26, 2021 Posted April 26, 2021 26 minutes ago, Leuthie said: Please explain? How do Ashynites have a connection to Sel? Ashynites words have a connection to Sel, the similarity between Shalash and Shao-Ala-Ashe (transformation, beauty and light) is confirmed not to be a coincidence Quote Questioner Do the Heralds know about AonDor? Brandon Sanderson I would say, conceptually, a few of them do, but not in specific detail. Questioner 'Cause Ash's name is a combination of Transformation, Beauty, and Light. I didn't know if that was a coincidence, or-- Brandon Sanderson There are some non-coincidences in the linguistics that people have started to pick up on, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the people who have those names know about the origins of their names. Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)
Frustration Posted April 26, 2021 Posted April 26, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, mathiau said: Ashynites words have a connection to Sel, the similarity between Shalash and Shao-Ala-Ashe (transformation, beauty and light) is confirmed not to be a coincidence I think that would be more a connection to Yollen than anything. Edited April 26, 2021 by Frustration 1
mathiau he/him Posted April 26, 2021 Posted April 26, 2021 2 minutes ago, Frustration said: I think that would be more a connection to Yollen than anything. That is likely, though I like to think some humans fled to Ashyn from Sel when Dev and Dom died, if only for the irony of it. Of course your argument also applies to @Child of Hodor's argument for the Iri being the original Elantrians
Weltall Posted April 26, 2021 Posted April 26, 2021 1 hour ago, mathiau said: Ashynites words have a connection to Sel, the similarity between Shalash and Shao-Ala-Ashe (transformation, beauty and light) is confirmed not to be a coincidence No, what Brandon says is that some linguistic similarities are non-coincidences. You'll note that he doesn't specifically say that that particular assumption on the part of the speaker is one of them. Here's another WoB where Brandon cautions that not everything we think looks similar means anything. Quote Jamester86 Kalad and Kalak, Shashara and Shalash...a lot of names on Nalthis and Roshar seem related....pure coincidence? Brandon Sanderson There is a lot of crossover between the planets. But not every connection people make is an intentional one. Stormlight Three Update #6 (Jan. 26, 2017)
LewsTherinTelescope Posted April 26, 2021 Posted April 26, 2021 On 4/22/2021 at 1:03 PM, Child of Hodor said: 1) The name of their current country is Iri. In Mistborn: SH book we meet worldhoppers from Sel called the Ire. I am not saying these are the same group. However, this is either a deliberate mislead or a hint. I mean, come on! They call themselves a similar thing because the Iriali were on Sel long enough to incorporate the language of Sel and there are still traces of it in modern Iriali culture. May I introduce you to shash, shash, and shash? But yeah, Brandon's got multiple times where exact words show up in completely coincidental ways, so I don't feel that something spelled similarly but likely pronounced completely differently is much proof. On 4/22/2021 at 1:03 PM, Child of Hodor said: 2) Names. A big thing about Sel and Elantris in particular is the Aon Dor and all the Aons. Each Aon is three letters. We don't know many Iriali related names, but we know a few like Iri, Evi her brother Toh. This seems like something the Iriali picked up from spending time on Sel. This is definitely an interesting thought. Hmm.
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