Dawnshards, the nature of bondsmithing and who has had the shards and where they are.

[Valigus]

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Hoid could be tempeted by Endowment but could Hoid tempt Endowment? He could tempt Whimsy and maybe Ambition but Endowment?

Precise and fast manipulation of the basic lashing seems like it could do that. It seems to me that Lezian didn't go against the Heralds so there's possibly a point at which he consider his enemies too powerful to challenge

Ok, seems close enough to a confirmation

He was not using any lashings we would have seen it and gravitation was not working that was supernatural speed

[Valigus]

25 minutes ago, KSub said:

I can appreciate how much work went into this post, and also how much went into the discussion that follows. 

I have a few issues with some of your assumptions. Most have already been discussed, but one point which came up in the latest shardcast is the nature of surgebinding. I recommend you check out the  Video.

In the video they go deep into what surges are. The summarized version is surges are the natural laws of the universe. Honor bound particular surges, limiting what someone could do with the surges and how they could access those surges. 

The important takeaway is that all magic in the cosmere makes use of surges. Surgebinding is what was done on Roshar to limit the use of surges and so that is the only reason it is unique to Honor and Cultivation. If Honor is the power of bonds then no dawnshards are needed. 

Thanks for the video, it may help support my points, I do think it’s possible though that all of the four shards under this unite or bind dawnshard have adhesion having been made from the same weird dawnshard

[mathiau he/him]

Just now, Valigus said:

He was not using any lashings we would have seen it and gravitation was not working that was supernatural speed

I'm confusing the order indeed.

2 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Thanks for the video, it may help support my points, I do think it’s possible though that all of the four shards under this unite or bind dawnshard have adhesion having been made from the same weird dawnshard

No double post please.

[KSub]

27 minutes ago, Valigus said:

He was not using any lashings we would have seen it and gravitation was not working that was supernatural speed

Good point. This could be Odium fueling Kaladin. In the video I mentioned they also talk about what the fused do and this feels a bit like that.

 

[Valigus]

So apparently the surges can change slightly on perception but generally they will manifest similarly and he has rfao’d wether it’s adonalsium or honor that kinda caused it to form this way.

But maybe what happened is honor limited the surges for the purposes of surgebinding in the rosharan system this is what’s gonna probably prevent insane abilities like a windrunner creating a black whole.

I think it makes a lot of sense that honor is the manifestation of bounds and so that even when it was big a setting the rules the codification of that was always part of honor. Even the sibling says honors truest surge is adhesion and it behaves weird.

Bondsmiths existed and were named apparently a while before everything else. Which I think suggests to me that this power comes from somewhere and since bondsmith a have also supposedly destroyed by a dawnshard. 

I think maybe the dawnshard of binding is super unlimited bondmsithing and destroyed this stuff but what we have is a restricted copy?

2 minutes ago, KSub said:

Good point. This could be Odium fueling Kaladin. In the video I mentioned they also talk about what the fused do and this feels a bit like that.

 

Yeah this is also when is eyes begin to glow slightly yellow in a way Venli described as like a fused 

mare you saying that maybe kaladins psuedo atium and superspeed abilities could be the result of fused like abilities one maybe explicitly from odium and the other is maybe him manipulating connection within himself like internal surgebinding like the fused? Maybe kaladin is becoming like an honor fused?

Side tangent are kaladin spren a thing? Or like determination spren maybe those will begin to exist and will look like a shash glyph maybe? Idk

[KSub]

13 minutes ago, Valigus said:

are you saying that maybe kaladins psuedo atium and superspeed abilities could be the result of fused like abilities one maybe explicitly from odium and the other is maybe him manipulating connection within himself like internal surgebinding like the fused? Maybe kaladin is becoming like an honor fused?

Yes, I think Odium was fueling a similar kind of power to the fused. I'm not sure what you would call it exactly.

I'm surprised we haven't seen determination spren before. I actually checked the coppermind because I was sure it should be a thing.

 

[Valigus]

Just now, KSub said:

Yes, I think Odium was fueling a similar kind of power to the fused. I'm not sure what you would call it exactly.

I'm surprised we haven't seen determination spren before. I actually checked the coppermind because I was sure it should be a thing.

 

Yeah but does that mean maybe like they are discussing in the podcast the unchaining of powers is allowing radiants to have fused like internal abilities does kaladins weird atium  thing happen because he used adhesion internally to connect directly to the spiritual realm?

exactly it seems so intuitive but it doesn’t exist and there are weird forshadowing moments I made a new post to talk about it because I wanna see what people think about it

 

[mathiau he/him]

5 minutes ago, Valigus said:

I think maybe the dawnshard of binding is super unlimited bondmsithing and destroyed this stuff but what we have is a restricted copy?

Bind might be able to create destruction depending on what it can do. In real life, binding two neutrons and two protons create an insane amount of energy and a Bind could maybe create black hole, since black holes evaporate making just a one gramme black hole would create an explosion akin to the WW2 atomic bombs

3 minutes ago, KSub said:

Yes, I think Odium was fueling a similar kind of power to the fused. I'm not sure what you would call it exactly.

I'm surprised we haven't seen determination spren before. I actually checked the coppermind because I was sure it should be a thing.

We also haven't seen any hatesprens, nor lovesprens either, unless you count seons, and if you do then maybe Valor's pure sprens could be determinationsprens, if she ever made some splinters.

[Valigus]

10 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Bind might be able to create destruction depending on what it can do. In real life, binding two neutrons and two protons create an insane amount of energy and a Bind could maybe create black hole, since black holes evaporate making just a one gramme black hole would create an explosion akin to the WW2 atomic bombs

We also haven't seen any hatesprens, nor lovesprens either, unless you count seons, and if you do then maybe Valor's pure sprens could be determinationsprens, if she ever made some splinters.

Maybe the bind shard enabled them to acess other op surges or yeah they could have create a fusion process and destroyed the planet.

yeah but it seems like too interesting an oversight and with the cult following kaladin is creating there probably should be now or in the future spren of him or related to or created because of him. Like if kelsier existed in roshar survivorism should have spren of some type like survival spren

[KSub]

52 minutes ago, Valigus said:

Yeah but does that mean maybe like they are discussing in the podcast the unchaining of powers is allowing radiants to have fused like internal abilities does kaladins weird atium  thing happen because he used adhesion internally to connect directly to the spiritual realm?

exactly it seems so intuitive but it doesn’t exist and there are weird forshadowing moments I made a new post to talk about it because I wanna see what people think about it

 

I'm not sure about the mechanics of it but based on his weird eye thing I think it comes from Odium the same as the fused powers. So it's likely not due to a breakdown of bonds but just Odium influencing and powering Kaladin, trying to break him as he and Moash planned.

[Valigus]

47 minutes ago, KSub said:

I'm not sure about the mechanics of it but based on his weird eye thing I think it comes from Odium the same as the fused powers. So it's likely not due to a breakdown of bonds but just Odium influencing and powering Kaladin, trying to break him as he and Moash planned.

Yeah I meant that the atium like ability is probably related to the breakdown of bonds

[Frustration]

Odium and Honor would be closer together if it weren't for thei vessels

[cometaryorbit]

On 2/8/2021 at 7:37 PM, mathiau said:

 

The other nine are mostly a mix of Honour and Cultivation with no pure surges yes (don't ask me what mostly means, ask Brandon)

 

Hmm, is that a WoB? I was figuring Progression would be "Cultivation's Truest Surge" the way Adhesion is Honor's.

On 2/9/2021 at 11:09 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

 

They are fundamental to the magic system, sure, but I don't see them as actually fundamental forces. What even is Trasnformation as a force, or Transportation, or Adhesion? They represent concepts that from a philosophical point of view could be argued to be fundamental, but aren't really "fundamental forces", I feel.

 

I think there's definitely a philosophical (which may become real due to the Cognitive? not sure) aspect to what the Surges are, but Transformation and Transportation might be Realmatic interactions that don't exist in our universe -- Transformation being the way Spiritual/Cognitive aspects change the Physical, and Transportation being transition between Realms.

On 2/9/2021 at 0:04 PM, Valigus said:

yeah idk how fabriels are ten based maybe gems or something idk.

There are ten Polestones, maybe it's as simple as that.

I mean with spren types, gems, and metals there are definitely more than ten possible types of fabrial...

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I think there's definitely a philosophical (which may become real due to the Cognitive? not sure) aspect to what the Surges are, but Transformation and Transportation might be Realmatic interactions that don't exist in our universe -- Transformation being the way Spiritual/Cognitive aspects change the Physical, and Transportation being transition between Realms.

In that case, would there not likely be other fundamental "forces" based on other Realmatic interactions that are missing from Surgebinding, meaning Surgebinding is still not a proper set of fundamental forces for the Cosmere?

(Also, I would argue that if they arise from Cognitive perception, that automatically makes them non-fundamental, as there's still something else behind them.)

[cometaryorbit]

1 hour ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

In that case, would there not likely be other fundamental "forces" based on other Realmatic interactions that are missing from Surgebinding, meaning Surgebinding is still not a proper set of fundamental forces for the Cosmere?

I honestly don't know. Maybe Surgebinding is limited to 10 Surges because of Shard/planet interactions, so there are other things not included?

OTOH if Transportation covers "transition between Realms", and Transformation covers "changes in one Realm create changes in another", maybe those are broad enough to cover basically all Realmatic interactions?

 

Quote

(Also, I would argue that if they arise from Cognitive perception, that automatically makes them non-fundamental, as there's still something else behind them.)

I was thinking more "influenced by/filtered through" rather than "arise from" Cognitive perception.

IE these are real things in themselves, but the form in which they manifest is affected by Cognitive perception. Fused seem to do different things with the same Surge than Radiants, and there are probably potential uses that neither have access to (Illumination is "Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms" but I don't think we'll see Lightweavers creating X-ray lasers).

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

OTOH if Transportation covers "transition between Realms", and Transformation covers "changes in one Realm create changes in another", maybe those are broad enough to cover basically all Realmatic interactions?

I guess, but that feels like it has to encompass more than just one single "force" if so.

5 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I was thinking more "influenced by/filtered through" rather than "arise from" Cognitive perception.

Fair enough.

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

Fused seem to do different things with the same Surge than Radiants

Imo, they have access to the same powerset, they just a.) have thousands of years more experience, b.) have the ability to come back to life if they die horribly when experimenting with the powers (most likely ones to need this: Deepest Ones), and c.) have the ability to hold Light indefinitely due to their gemheart (don't ask me how this works, but the book says so).

1 minute ago, cometaryorbit said:

(Illumination is "Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms" but I don't think we'll see Lightweavers creating X-ray lasers).

Weeeeell.......

Quote

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

[Discussion of Lightweavers manipulating other forms of electromagnetic radiation]

But the ultimate form (That Brandon said would be too much to be practical both in needed stormlight and application) would be the control of Gamma Radiation. If this could be harnessed, Lightweavers could literally become mini nukes, or death guns. The biggest downside to making Gamma radiation would be the damage the lightweaver would most likely suffer. So gamma radiation is impractical but its a fun thought experiment. 

The best part of this whole speculation was how excited Brandon was about my train of thought. I don't know if anyone had brought up this train of thought before. But he was happy to remind me that things will get pretty interesting when Lightweavers discover lasers and start using them in combat.

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 3, 2016)

[Shob the Voidbringer]

the way i see the transportation and transformation surges is that transportation is the surge that represents movement, and transformation is the surge that represents things changing, such as a stone melting, and cooling, and it's a different type of rock, or how water can freeze, or evaporate. it's just the material changing. but these 2 surges are applied in the cognitive realm rather than the physical.

[cometaryorbit]

12 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Weeeeell.......

Hmm! Ok, I guess the Radiants have a lot more flexibility in their powers than we've seen so far.

I was thinking the Progression-Fused's self-alteration was probably fundamentally different from anything Radiant, and tied to the Singers' "form-shifting" nature, but if Lightweavers can potentially do lasers, maybe Radiants could manage that too.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

I was thinking the Progression-Fused's self-alteration was probably fundamentally different from anything Radiant, and tied to the Singers' "form-shifting" nature, but if Lightweavers can potentially do lasers, maybe Radiants could manage that too.

My guess is it's probably some really weird perception mumbo jumbo. That, or they just have learned to control what grows much more carefully/finely than we've seen so far (which, we haven't exactly seen any masterful uses of Growth yet anyway, so who knows how much Radiants can do?). Maybe they can tell just a very specific portion of their body to grow, which lets them form the shapes.

[mathiau he/him]

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm, is that a WoB? I was figuring Progression would be "Cultivation's Truest Surge" the way Adhesion is Honor's.

I was wrong the WoB doesn't say Cultivation doesn't have a Surge

Quote

Questioner

I've had this question burning deep inside me since I finished RoW, is there a truest Surge of Odium? My headcanon for now is Transportation.

Brandon Sanderson

Hey! So, I'll deal with this eventually in the books, so it's a RAFO for now! But do keep in mind that the Surges on Roshar, as they're understood now, are mostly Honor/Cultivation.

General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 9, 2020)

Quote

There are ten Polestones, maybe it's as simple as that.

I mean with spren types, gems, and metals there are definitely more than ten possible types of fabrial...

Some polestones seems mostly interchangeable (ruby and amethyst for example) so probably not

12 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Hmm! Ok, I guess the Radiants have a lot more flexibility in their powers than we've seen so far.

I was thinking the Progression-Fused's self-alteration was probably fundamentally different from anything Radiant, and tied to the Singers' "form-shifting" nature, but if Lightweavers can potentially do lasers, maybe Radiants could manage that too.

Quote

“Vono?” Noura asked. “What happened to your charge? You were to keep her busy and distracted, yes?”

“I was, Your Grace,” Vono said. “Until she kicked me in my spheres and stuffed me under the bed. Um, Your Grace. Don’t right know how she moved me. She’s not real big, that one.…”

(they're talking about Lift) I don't know how much strength Stormlight grants but I'm pretty sure it's less than that