HSuperLee Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 5 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: So as soon as they Push off the ground (such as to fight a flying Windrunner/Skybreaker) they lose any real advantage from Feruchemical speed. Somewhat related to this, do we know for sure if feruchemical speed affects fall time? I know we have this WoB, which alludes to steelrunners being able to fall at "normal" speed relative to themselves, Quote Questioner Everybody talks about steel-steel twinborns. A big topic of discussion. What I'm thinking about, I haven't seen anybody ask, what happens when somebody who's tapping speed, does a steelpush, does the steelpush react in realtime or accelerated time? And the object-- is it like a railgun? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm surprised that no one's asked me that before. This gets really dangerous really fast... It's RAFO territory, but you are thinking along the right lines. Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017) because if they don't fall faster to compensate for their own speed then they should basically be experiencing 0g as the rate their falling at would seem like a standstill to them. But if that's the case, a fullborn would still be able to use iron to pull themselves to trace metals in the ground, and it would get interesting. Also, to add to the conversation about using other metals at super speed, I found this while looking for the gravity thing. Quote Questioner Everybody talks about steel-steel twinborns. A big topic of discussion. What I'm thinking about, I haven't seen anybody ask, what happens when somebody who's tapping speed, does a steelpush, does the steelpush react in realtime or accelerated time? And the object-- is it like a railgun? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm surprised that no one's asked me that before. This gets really dangerous really fast... It's RAFO territory, but you are thinking along the right lines. Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)
StanLemon Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 16 minutes ago, HSuperLee said: Somewhat related to this, do we know for sure if feruchemical speed affects fall time? I know we have this WoB, which alludes to steelrunners being able to fall at "normal" speed relative to themselves, because if they don't fall faster to compensate for their own speed then they should basically be experiencing 0g as the rate their falling at would seem like a standstill to them. But if that's the case, a fullborn would still be able to use iron to pull themselves to trace metals in the ground, and it would get interesting. Also, to add to the conversation about using other metals at super speed, I found this while looking for the gravity thing. The fact that Bleeder could run down stairs at an accelerated pace and jump out of window and escape super fast, it does imply that they do fall at higher speeds as well 1
cometaryorbit Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 2 hours ago, HSuperLee said: Somewhat related to this, do we know for sure if feruchemical speed affects fall time? I know we have this WoB, which alludes to steelrunners being able to fall at "normal" speed relative to themselves, I don't know - "you are thinking along the right lines" might just mean "this is the right question to be asking to understand how this works", not necessarily "it really is accelerated". If it is not that goes a long way towards resolving some of the issues with feruchemical speed being the best power ever. Also, having it accelerate that stuff has really big implications. Not that there aren't other things like that in Feruchemy (iron feruchemy perpetual motion, etc.) but - if it does, what happens if you Steelpush while speeded-up x20? If the x20 applies to your speed of motion for the Steelpush, either Newton's laws of motion are horribly broken, or the Push strength applied to the anchor is also multiplied x20. And I don't think "physical speed" should also be "Allomantic strength multiplication". I think it is much cleaner if "physical speed" is just physical body motion, reaction time, etc.
StanLemon Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said: I don't know - "you are thinking along the right lines" might just mean "this is the right question to be asking to understand how this works", not necessarily "it really is accelerated". If it is not that goes a long way towards resolving some of the issues with feruchemical speed being the best power ever. Also, having it accelerate that stuff has really big implications. Not that there aren't other things like that in Feruchemy (iron feruchemy perpetual motion, etc.) but - if it does, what happens if you Steelpush while speeded-up x20? If the x20 applies to your speed of motion for the Steelpush, either Newton's laws of motion are horribly broken, or the Push strength applied to the anchor is also multiplied x20. And I don't think "physical speed" should also be "Allomantic strength multiplication". I think it is much cleaner if "physical speed" is just physical body motion, reaction time, etc. Except by all indications it would be a full multiplier. Especially if the person tapping speed is moving toward the thing they are pushing metal towards. The metal will push against the Fullborn while simultaneously being Pushed on by the Fullborn. That's simple physics. These implications will most likely be very important to the mechanical use of the Metallic Arts.
cometaryorbit Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, StanLemon said: Except by all indications it would be a full multiplier. Well, but falling speed doesn't qualify for storing Feruchemical speed, so why should it qualify for tapping? https://wob.coppermind.net/events/352-miscon-2018/#e10297 There's also this, which suggests that feruchemical speed isn't as much of a "personal time bubble" as other WoBs might suggest... https://wob.coppermind.net/events/361-skyward-pre-release-ama/#e11520 similarly, https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36-arcanum-unbounded-chicago-signing/#e1505 But there is also this: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402-starsight-release-party/#e13501 Which seems to be flatly contradictory to 'it's not really temporal, just physical' so... I am not sure all these interactions have really been worked out...
StanLemon Posted February 17, 2021 Posted February 17, 2021 @cometaryorbit Oh I'm aware of all those WoB. The thing is, while I think most of what it does is speed. There is clearly some kind of temporal mechanic connected to it. The fact that there are two instances in Shadows of Self that show something that could only be possible if it wasn't just speed proves that. And then there are WoB that say there is a small temporal aspect. But even without the temporal aspect, it would still act as a multiplier when it came to Steelpushes because of conservation of momentum. Besides, the true power of Feruchemy and Allomancy happens when using them in concert. One of the whole points of the Metallic Arts are to use them together to game the system. This is why so many think that magically Scadrial is no less powerful than Roshar, it's just that you have to hack the system properly to utilize its most powerful features. 1
+robardin he/him Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) On 2/11/2021 at 3:44 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said: From what we can tell Wax returned the Investiture to the bands. Something about the way Medallion tech works seems to return the Investiture automatically after use. The question is how? This is the scariest part about the BoM, and for unsealed F-power granting metalminds in general, that is part of the mystery of the creation and the use of nicrosilminds. And feels like it could be seriously OP in the wider Cosmere, because of how it opens the door to anybody Compounding any metal, practically at will. On first reading The Bands of Mourning, when we are introduced to the idea (and then the effect) that one can store "the ability to do X" (be it an Allomantic or Feruchemical ability) in an unsealed nicrosilmind usable by anybody who realizes what it is, I assumed that that Investiture - what encapsulated "storage of ability to do X" - was an attribute that would get used up when tapped. The same way that tapping speed, weight, health, age, etc., from a steelmind, ironmind, atiummind, or goldmind would do. But we have a WoB that says nicrosilminds instead work like copperminds, which do not "use up" the Investiture but are simply "something stored and later restored/borrowed" in nature: Quote Pagerunner When you tap the nicrosil portion of a medallion, will it run out over time? Or is it like a coppermind, where something discrete is taken, used, and returned? Brandon Sanderson Good question! Like a coppermind. General Signed Books 2018 (Oct. 15, 2018) So for a "classical" Feruchemist (e.g., Era 1 Sazed, where we see the most POV use of Feruchemy), he could not tap a coppermind at a "multiplier" the same way that could be done with a steelmind, where he could draw upon a bit of speed over a long period of time, or mega-tap for a burst of incredible speed. The memories are what they are, and maybe he could tap "harder" to read them faster, but there's no way to gain more memories than were stored there in the end, or to lose some of them due to tapping harder (as would happen with "attribute" type metalminds). In other words, the Investiture as "the ability to do X" can be put back into the metalmind with essentially no loss. It's a "borrowing". After Wax viewed the Survivor's memory in the unsealed coppermind coin at the end of BoM, both the memory in the coppermind and the ability to access that memory were "put back" into the coin's metalminds when he released them, and anybody else could do the same later (it wouldn't get "used up"). Though to me that seems like it would also require yet another unsealed nicrosilmind that granted the ability to store unkeyed Investiture back into the nicrosilmind that represented something like "you can use F-copper", but the details of this are still RAFO and implied to be a kind of Connection hack (which maybe means that simply using an unsealed metalmind of any kind will always allow you to put the unkeyed Investiture back into the metalmind from whence it came): Quote Questioner So nicrosil. Wax couldn’t use a blank gold metalmind because he’s not a gold ferring, why can he use a blank nicrosil metalmind? Brandon Sanderson So this will all come out eventually but the idea is there are certain ways to connect yourself to magic, to hack the magic and make it think you have the Spiritual DNA that you don’t actually have. And this is one of the ways. Questioner So then the people who made this medallion have this thing that a regular nicrosil Ferring couldn’t-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah, you’re picking up on it. We’ll dig deeper into it as the series progresses. Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) So the "Excisors", whatever they are, maybe involve or impart Connection twiddling? -- Feels kind of like some flavor of Selish magic, doesn't it, except of course how would that work on Scadrial or anywhere other than the appropriate region of Sel? And of course, we still don't know what it would mean to Compound a coppermind; or in this case, a nicrosilmind. Argh! Edited February 18, 2021 by robardin 1
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 11 minutes ago, robardin said: This is the scariest part about the BoM, and for unsealed F-power granting metalminds in general, that is part of the mystery of the creation and the use of nicrosilminds. And feels like it could be seriously OP in the wider Cosmere, because of how it opens the door to anybody Compounding any metal, practically at will. On first reading The Bands of Mourning, when we are introduced to the idea (and then the effect) that one can store "the ability to do X" (be it an Allomantic or Feruchemical ability) in an unsealed nicrosilmind usable by anybody who realizes what it is, I assumed that that Investiture - what encapsulated "storage of ability to do X" - was an attribute that would get used up when tapped. The same way that tapping speed, weight, health, age, etc., from a steelmind, ironmind, atiummind, or goldmind would do. But we have a WoB that says nicrosilminds instead work like copperminds, which do not "use up" the Investiture but are simply "something stored and later restored/borrowed" in nature: So for a "classical" Feruchemist (e.g., Era 1 Sazed, where we see the most POV use of Feruchemy), he could not tap a coppermind at a "multiplier" the same way that could be done with a steelmind, where he could draw upon a bit of speed over a long period of time, or mega-tap for a burst of incredible speed. The memories are what they are, and maybe he could tap "harder" to read them faster, but there's no way to gain more memories than were stored there in the end, or to lose some of them due to tapping harder (as would happen with "attribute" type metalminds). In other words, the Investiture as "the ability to do X" can be put back into the metalmind with essentially no loss. It's a "borrowing". After Wax viewed the Survivor's memory in the unsealed coppermind coin at the end of BoM, both the memory in the coppermind and the ability to access that memory were "put back" into the coin's metalminds when he released them, and anybody else could do the same later (it wouldn't get "used up"). Though to me that seems like it would also require yet another unsealed nicrosilmind that granted the ability to store unkeyed Investiture back into the nicrosilmind that represented something like "you can use F-copper", but the details of this are still RAFO and implied to be a kind of Connection hack (which maybe means that simply using an unsealed metalmind of any kind will always allow you to put the unkeyed Investiture back into the metalmind from whence it came): So the "Excisors", whatever they are, maybe involve or impart Connection twiddling? -- Feels kind of like some flavor of Selish magic, doesn't it, except of course how would that work on Scadrial or anywhere other than the appropriate region of Sel? And of course, we still don't know what it would mean to Compound a coppermind; or in this case, a nicrosilmind. Argh! And the process seems to be automatic, which is yet ANOTHER question! Though I believe Wax kept the memory, as he remembers what he saw after he dropped the coin.
+robardin he/him Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said: And the process seems to be automatic, which is yet ANOTHER question! Though I believe Wax kept the memory, as he remembers what he saw after he dropped the coin. Did he remember "the memory" or simply now remembers the memory? I mean, once you've watched a rented movie and returned it, it's in your head too, right? There are multiple reasons that was a cliffhanger ending!
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 2 hours ago, robardin said: Did he remember "the memory" or simply now remembers the memory? I mean, once you've watched a rented movie and returned it, it's in your head too, right? There are multiple reasons that was a cliffhanger ending! Copper memories don’t work that way. You remember that you had tapped a Coppermind and retrieved information, but not what that information was. You just have a gap where the memory should be. So if Wax remembers what he saw, not just that he saw something shocking, then he’s kept the memory. 1
HSuperLee Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 On the topic of the medallions, I think they really are going to be the key to balancing out the Rosharan magics in Era 4. We always talk about how the Rosharan magics are so powerful because of the personal abilities they grant, which yes, are individually more powerful than most if not all individual metalborn. But the metallic arts in a way are becoming a societal art; and I say art singular because the more they develop the less of a gap there's becoming between them. Now, I hear you preparing to say, "but what about Rosharan fabrials!?" Yes, they are not to be ignored. Rosharan fabrials are also a societal magic, but its not quite the same. Even by Era 4, where I'm sure almost all Rosharan tech will have integrated fabrials, surgebinders are going to be a big deal, as there's not really a viable way to transfer a spren bond (yes, I know there are probably ways to do it, but I still think it will be almost nonexistent) and thus not just anyone could become a Radiant. But with the metallic arts, and specifically the medallions, anyone can be a twinborn. Or a double misting/ferring. Or a compounder. Yes, the natural metalborn will still be special, as they should be able to exceed the normal two power limit of the medallions (technically 3, but practically 2), but that doesn't change the fact that theoretically every member of Scadrial society could and quite possibly will have access to a full invested art. And then, through harmonium, it will also be integrated into their technology. Now, yes, on an individual basis Rosharan's might still have the largest access to investiture and the highest power invested art by space age (except maybe Elantrians, but I've still no idea what they'll look like during the space age) but then competing with medallion technology on a societal level, even considering Rosharan fabrials, should level the playing field somewhat.
+robardin he/him Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Copper memories don’t work that way. You remember that you had tapped a Coppermind and retrieved information, but not what that information was. You just have a gap where the memory should be. So if Wax remembers what he saw, not just that he saw something shocking, then he’s kept the memory. That is what I would have thought, but I could swear that I'd read a WoB reference somewhere that the memory coin/medallion would still be usable by someone else after that scene... Will have to look for that.
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted February 18, 2021 Posted February 18, 2021 12 minutes ago, robardin said: That is what I would have thought, but I could swear that I'd read a WoB reference somewhere that the memory coin/medallion would still be usable by someone else after that scene... Will have to look for that. To store memories, maybe. Or there were other memories on it. Or there were multiple copies of the memory! ‘Still be usable’ could mean a lot of things...
Argus the Awful he/him Posted February 25, 2021 Posted February 25, 2021 On 2/14/2021 at 10:52 PM, Frustration said: I don't know Taln was known for picking unwinable battles, and winning them, and we have an unwinable battle... Yes but this is more than just unwinnable. An unmade could do it tho
Frustration Posted February 25, 2021 Posted February 25, 2021 Just now, Willshaper-Kalak said: Yes but this is more than just unwinnable. An unmade could do it tho More than unwinable? no, not really. Unmade? Maybe, Yelig-nar could perhapse do it, but none of the others that we've seen.
Argus the Awful he/him Posted February 25, 2021 Posted February 25, 2021 It would mostly depend on if it was before Taln went insane
Frustration Posted February 25, 2021 Posted February 25, 2021 41 minutes ago, Willshaper-Kalak said: It would mostly depend on if it was before Taln went insane Why would I propose post torture Taln?
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted February 25, 2021 Posted February 25, 2021 1 hour ago, Willshaper-Kalak said: It would mostly depend on if it was before Taln went insane Not really. He still can’t move fast enough. 1
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