Sateryn Posted February 4, 2021 Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) New user here, don't really know anybody IRL who also reads these books, and late night musing got something in my head that I was so itching to discuss I just had to register to post this. This is part question, part personal wild theorizing. So I was thinking about how exactly Taravangian was able to stab Rayse, and this got me to contemplating what happens to a person's physical body while they are holding a Shard. We know that when a Vessel dies their body appears at the location where their attention was currently focused (we've seen this with Leras, Ati, and Rayse), so my wild speculation is: When one Ascends, one's physical body is stored in what is basically a pocket dimension within the Physical realm, and while Vessels can communicate with mortals in a variety of ways (like Sazed speaking to those with spikes, or Odium speaking into the minds of those he has Connection to) actually being face-to-face with a mortal involves pulling them into this pocket dimension and interacting with them using the Vessel's physical body. This would explain how Rayse was able to actually be stabbed, because otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense - since we know Shards can make avatars, and Odium is rather paranoid and defensive and while it could be argued he's just so arrogant he's never consider a mortal a threat that seems a bit of a write-off to explain why he'd make himself vulnerable in that way, unless it's basically the only way he can be in direct contact with someone. But, a sort of pocket dimension containing their physical body would explain the Visions that Odium uses to show off to people, it also explains the Visions that Dalinar sees (if Honor created a little play inside his pocket dimension and it's kept open by the Stormfather), and it would also explain how Odium had a body for Taravangian to stab. Edited February 4, 2021 by Sateryn 2
TheSprengineer Posted February 4, 2021 Posted February 4, 2021 Odium is an interesting case, considering he’s the first Shard vessel who has died from a “physical” attack. The others have been ripped up by other Shards. *cough RayseYouJerk cough* Pocket God dimension is cool, and I wonder what Nightblood screwball stuff is involved in all that, reaching physically but stabbing interdimensionally.
Ba-Ado-Fisherman Posted February 4, 2021 Posted February 4, 2021 3 hours ago, Sateryn said: New user here, don't really know anybody IRL who also reads these books, and late night musing got something in my head that I was so itching to discuss I just had to register to post this. This is part question, part personal wild theorizing. So I was thinking about how exactly Taravangian was able to stab Rayse, and this got me to contemplating what happens to a person's physical body while they are holding a Shard. We know that when a Vessel dies their body appears at the location where their attention was currently focused (we've seen this with Leras, Ati, and Rayse), so my wild speculation is: When one Ascends, one's physical body is stored in what is basically a pocket dimension within the Physical realm, and while Vessels can communicate with mortals in a variety of ways (like Sazed speaking to those with spikes, or Odium speaking into the minds of those he has Connection to) actually being face-to-face with a mortal involves pulling them into this pocket dimension and interacting with them using the Vessel's physical body. This would explain how Rayse was able to actually be stabbed, because otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense - since we know Shards can make avatars, and Odium is rather paranoid and defensive and while it could be argued he's just so arrogant he's never consider a mortal a threat that seems a bit of a write-off to explain why he'd make himself vulnerable in that way, unless it's basically the only way he can be in direct contact with someone. But, a sort of pocket dimension containing their physical body would explain the Visions that Odium uses to show off to people, it also explains the Visions that Dalinar sees (if Honor created a little play inside his pocket dimension and it's kept open by the Stormfather), and it would also explain how Odium had a body for Taravangian to stab. I'm pretty sure their body gets instantly vaporized by the Investiture.
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 4, 2021 Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) Quote LewsTherinTelescope In the Liar of Partinel samples, we see fain life is covered in skullmoss [...]. If a fain being were to Ascend, would their body retain this skullmoss when they drop (I mean, Leras and Ati seemed to retain their clothes, so it wouldn't surprise me), or would it be killed off by the process? (Actually, I'm curious about this with microorganisms and such in general with Vessels, but the fain life is what made me think of it.) Brandon Sanderson Imagine the body that drops after a Shard dies being the essence being recreated out of energy. It wasn't there all along--it was absorbed into the power, then drops back out as a kind of husk. But it's not literally the same atoms. There has been some strange E=MC2=Investiture shenanigans going on. [...] Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020) Interesting thought, though! It's definitely still sorta strange to me. 3 hours ago, Sateryn said: This would explain how Rayse was able to actually be stabbed, because otherwise it doesn't make a lot of sense - since we know Shards can make avatars, and Odium is rather paranoid and defensive and while it could be argued he's just so arrogant he's never consider a mortal a threat that seems a bit of a write-off to explain why he'd make himself vulnerable in that way, unless it's basically the only way he can be in direct contact with someone. Well, they're not actually in the Physical when that happens, the visions happen sort of stretched between the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms. So perhaps it was just Rayse's Cognitive/Spiritual aspect? Edited February 4, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope formatting 1
Sateryn Posted February 4, 2021 Author Posted February 4, 2021 Huh, I appreciate the quote, and I'm not second-guessing Sanderson obviously just fan-theory-crafting, but that doesn't seem to make logical sense in connection to events as we've seen them. If the body is absorbed into the power that means the Vessel no longer has a central 'self' in a physical sense, that their consciousness would just be dispersed throughout the power and their personality effectively being a construct running within the swirling vortex of the Shard's power. So if that's the case, does Nightblood coming into 'physical' contact with any portion of a Shard's essence immediately kill the Vessel? Or perhaps at least instantly sever the Connection between the Shard and the Vessel? There's a Sanderson quote responding to if Nightblood could destroy a Shard and he gave a sort of vague answer, but from a purely logical standpoint it seems to me that Nightblood could sever a Shard on contact with just a coalesced gathering of power, and if the power of a Shard is expansive and omnipresent (or at least locallypresent) then you'd think Nightblood would destroy any Vessel within a star-system radius around it whenever it's unsheathed. I guess the only answer consistent with the quote about Fain would be that when a Shard-bearer is focusing their attention on a specific space in the Physical realm, that must be a concentration of the essence of the Vessel - otherwise, what of Odium (or more specifically Rayse) was there for Nightblood to stab? Ok so maybe it's not a pocket dimension in the Physical realm, but I'm still sporting the idea that direct contact Visions are somehow the Vessel and the subject being in some kind of proximity to each other, perhaps in the Cognitive or Spiritual. There had to be some kind of concentrated manifestation point of Rayse present in that Vision for Nightblood to be able to touch him, right?
Sateryn Posted February 4, 2021 Author Posted February 4, 2021 OK digging up some more Q&A quotes here. Questioner If it's possible for Nightblood to actually interact with a Shard, what would happen? Brandon Sanderson A Shard would try to stay very far away from Nightblood. Nightblood could not plausibly destroy an entire Shard but the Vessel could be in danger. So in that case, if we assume that there is no manifestation of the Vessel in the Physical realm, Odium's "Vision-space" must be in the Cognitive or Spiritual (or some undisclosed in-between) wherein the 'soul' of the Vessel is present. If Nightblood is capable of severing the Connection between the Vessel and the Shard, it would have to be at some kind of focal point for the Vessel, otherwise as per my previous post simply being in the same cosmic area as a Shard would sever the Vessel, since Shard's are basically omnipresent within at least a solar system sized area. 1
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 4, 2021 Posted February 4, 2021 56 minutes ago, Sateryn said: So in that case, if we assume that there is no manifestation of the Vessel in the Physical realm, Odium's "Vision-space" must be in the Cognitive or Spiritual (or some undisclosed in-between) wherein the 'soul' of the Vessel is present. Yeah, the visions are a sort of weird partly Spiritual, partly Cognitive thing. Quote Argent How do visions in the cosmere work? And I'm thinking Realmatically. Brandon Sanderson So almost always [it's] glimpsing into the Spiritual Realm. But you are often seeing it through the Cognitive, and so like a vision that... So like the vision that Dalinar sees. What's going on is-- being pulled, and kind of stretched a little bit through the Realms, into the Spiritual Realm. Where a Cognitive construct is adding a framework to seeds that are set in place. Argent So that you can kind of comprehend the Spiritual? Brandon Sanderson You can comprehend-- and also there's a little bit of a life to it. Meaning it can respond to you and things like this, to an extent. So imagine, it kind of works like an AI. Imagine there's some-- You've got that power in the Spiritual Realm and you're adding a framework to it, that it is shining through, and that is giving you the vision. Complicated, I know. Spiritual Realm is supposed to be weird, and we aren't supposed to quite comprehend it, but that's why we've got the Cognitive framework there. JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018) Most likely, it was just Rayse's Cognitive aspect, same as Ati or Leras in Secret History, I guess? Or, well, combination of Cognitive and Spiritual being displayed, idk. Something along those lines.
Leuthie Posted February 4, 2021 Posted February 4, 2021 The death of Rayse was more about Nightblood than it was about any Physical, Cognitive or Spiritual aspect that T and Rayse were in. Nightblood kills in all three, so it doesn't matter. That's why Nightblood was there. It's such a strongly Invested entity that it was pulled in when Rayse pulled in T. T stabbed Rayse and principles of Hemalurgy then applied. Nightblood created a Connection between itself and Rayse/Odium. It pulled in everything Connected until it was sated. Rayse put his own soul too close to an Investiture Black Hole and had it sucked in. Hell, Rayse's body wasn't turned to Investiture. It was burned to unrecognizable. Another interesting thought I had: The burning isn't even from Nightblood. Nightblood doesn't burn things. Rayse's body looked burned because Rayse saw his own human aspect as burned away; the equivalent of Kaladin's slave brand. 1
Serack he/him Posted February 4, 2021 Posted February 4, 2021 @LewsTherinTelescope I happened to have read the E=MC2 WoB yesterday and was pleased to see that you got to share your own WoB as a response here. It seems Brandon has gotten to the point where he recognizes you in these discussions.
Frustration Posted February 4, 2021 Posted February 4, 2021 28 minutes ago, Leuthie said: The death of Rayse was more about Nightblood than it was about any Physical, Cognitive or Spiritual aspect that T and Rayse were in. Nightblood kills in all three, so it doesn't matter. That's why Nightblood was there. It's such a strongly Invested entity that it was pulled in when Rayse pulled in T. T stabbed Rayse and principles of Hemalurgy then applied. Nightblood created a Connection between itself and Rayse/Odium. It pulled in everything Connected until it was sated. Rayse put his own soul too close to an Investiture Black Hole and had it sucked in. Hell, Rayse's body wasn't turned to Investiture. It was burned to unrecognizable. Another interesting thought I had: The burning isn't even from Nightblood. Nightblood doesn't burn things. Rayse's body looked burned because Rayse saw his own human aspect as burned away; the equivalent of Kaladin's slave brand. Not Hemalurgy
Leuthie Posted February 4, 2021 Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Frustration said: Not Hemalurgy You're totally right! It's the underlying principles that lead to Hemalurgy that apply here. Stabbing something with an Invested object creates a Connection between those two things in the three Realms. In this case, Nightblood just indiscriminately sucked in Investiture from Rayse through this Connection. In Hemalurgy, there's more focused Intent employed to surgically remove specific pieces of Investiture. Good catch! Edited February 4, 2021 by Leuthie
Frustration Posted February 4, 2021 Posted February 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Leuthie said: You're totally right! It's the underlying principles that lead to Hemalurgy that apply here. Stabbing with an Invested object creates a Connection to other Realms. In this case, Nightblood just indiscriminately sucked in Investiture from Rayse through this Connection. In Hemalurgy, there's more focused Intent employed to surgically remove specific pieces of Investiture. Good catch! Thanks but it's not all invested objects, metalminds won't do it, but the more general term "shardblades" would, so awakened blades, Aon Dor blades etc. are invested enough to cut on spiritual realm, but yes.
LewsTherinTelescope Posted February 4, 2021 Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Serack said: @LewsTherinTelescope I happened to have read the E=MC2 WoB yesterday and was pleased to see that you got to share your own WoB as a response here. Heh, yeah, always a bit fun when one of those ends up being relevant (Then there's people like Argent with literal hundreds of WoBs, relevant to most any situation )
Frustration Posted February 4, 2021 Posted February 4, 2021 13 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said: Heh, yeah, always a bit fun when one of those ends up being relevant (Then there's people like Argent with literal hundreds of WoBs, relevant to most any situation ) He also gets privet ones sometimes.
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