Honor vs. Justice

[Guest Parallax]

I am curious what people think about these concepts. 

Note the third answer could mean Justice/Judgement is the combination of multiple shards or that Brandon disagrees with the reasoning given in the first answer. 

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

I think there’s a good chance that it is a shard and that it is the balance for Mercy.

[StanLemon]

I could see it being its own Shard, however I think it's more a combination of multiple Shard traits such as Odium, Mercy, and Honor.

[mathiau he/him]

9 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I could see it being its own Shard, however I think it's more a combination of multiple Shard traits such as Odium, Mercy, and Honor.

Definitely Honour+Mercy, with maybe some Odium or/and Preservation too.

[Elegy he/him]

I'd say being honorable and being judgemental are very different things, so I think it's still a possibility.

It might be of relevance that Brandon mentioned that a Shard like Judgement would have been a good fit for the Reckoners world, were it in the Cosmere:

(mild spoilers, pre-Calamity)

 

Quote

Shadow Guardian

If Calamity were a Shard in the Cosmere, what intent would he be?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh boy... Oh boy. Have you read this book?

Shadow Guardian

I have not read Calamity yet?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't want to spoil it. Um... *pause* Yeah, I don't really want to spoil it. But it's kind of-- it's like "Vindictiveness" would probably be a good match. This-- Or "Judgement". Maybe Judgement. Calamity's got this impression that people will destroy themselves if he lets them. Does that make sense?

Shadow Guardian

Yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

So it's not either one of those, but it's something close to that.

Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

 

But the fact that he dropped that name here makes me think that it's not going to be a Shard's final name. Maybe Retribution.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Elegy
Hid the "spoilers", just in case

[mathiau he/him]

16 hours ago, Elegy said:

I'd say being honorable and being judgemental are very different things, so I think it's still a possibility.

It might be of relevance that Brandon mentioned that a Shard like Judgement would have been a good fit for the Reckoners world, were it in the Cosmere:

(mild spoilers, pre-Calamity)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

But the fact that he dropped that name here makes me think that it's not going to be a Shard's final name. Maybe Retribution.

Being able to serve Justice and being Judgemental are also two different thing

Retribution seems like to be something that would be composed of Honour and Odium (like in someone trying to avenge his Honour) so it's possible it was a working name for War like Ingenuity for Invention, it's also possible Honour and Odium don't always/never fuse to make War and Retribution to be one of the possibilities

[Guest Parallax]

On 12/31/2020 at 1:54 AM, StanLemon said:

I could see it being its own Shard, however I think it's more a combination of multiple Shard traits such as Odium, Mercy, and Honor.

 

On 12/31/2020 at 10:59 AM, mathiau said:

Definitely Honour+Mercy, with maybe some Odium or/and Preservation too.

These are interesting perspectives.

Personally I think of Justice as clearly distinct from Mercy (should come after we decide what is just) and Odium (no intense emotion should be part of justice). 

On 1/1/2021 at 6:24 AM, mathiau said:

Retribution seems like to be something that would be composed of Honour and Odium (like in someone trying to avenge his Honour) so it's possible it was a working name for War like Ingenuity for Invention, it's also possible Honour and Odium don't always/never fuse to make War and Retribution to be one of the possibilities

Retribution is the best one word description of Honor + Odium (Righteous Indignation would be more precise). 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Parallax

[11thHerald]

I feel like it's way too similar to Honor. It doesn't match up exactly but I think Justice is probably the result of Honor and another shard combining.

[Guest Parallax]

8 minutes ago, 11thHerald said:

I feel like it's way too similar to Honor. It doesn't match up exactly but I think Justice is probably the result of Honor and another shard combining.

That makes sense until you read about Honor's intent: "Honor seeks to uphold oaths and agreements, and to make things binding. He is referred to as the God of Laws by singers." That doesn't really overlap with Justice: you can promise to carry out an injustice and there are plenty of unjust laws. 

[11thHerald]

10 hours ago, Parallax said:

That makes sense until you read about Honor's intent: "Honor seeks to uphold oaths and agreements, and to make things binding. He is referred to as the God of Laws by singers." That doesn't really overlap with Justice: you can promise to carry out an injustice and there are plenty of unjust laws. 

That's why I think its the result of Honor combining with another Shard like Mercy. By itself I think there is too much overlap, but not so much that Honor is synonymous with Justice.

[Frustration]

Brandon is LDS and there are entire sections of scripture dedicated to how God is a Just AND Merciful God. 

So yes I do believe it to be a shard.

[Guest Parallax]

On 1/6/2021 at 10:14 AM, 11thHerald said:

That's why I think its the result of Honor combining with another Shard like Mercy. By itself I think there is too much overlap, but not so much that Honor is synonymous with Justice.

I don't see any overlap at all! I think Honor is a misleading name for the shard, Order (or Hierarchy) would be more precise. What happened was that Tanavast was an honorable person so the orders (oaths and bonds) he imposed and enforced were automatically honorable too (and we are told this changed towards the end of his life).

On 1/6/2021 at 11:28 AM, Frustration said:

Brandon is LDS and there are entire sections of scripture dedicated to how God is a Just AND Merciful God. 

So yes I do believe it to be a shard.

Very interesting. If there is a shard of Justice, what is its current state? Based on its intent Justice wouldn't hide or aim for survival, but it is also not on the list of shards Harmony contacts which leads me to believe that if the shard of Justice exists it is splintered (Odium, Autonomy and Ambition would be the three suspects). 

[Frustration]

7 minutes ago, Parallax said:

Very interesting. If there is a shard of Justice, what is its current state? Based on its intent Justice wouldn't hide or aim for survival, but it is also not on the list of shards Harmony contacts which leads me to believe that if the shard of Justice exists it is splintered (Odium, Autonomy and Ambition would be the three suspects). 

Possible, and there are way more shards than worlds Brandon has planned out.

However, Dominion did not try to control the Cosmere, nor has(it appears) Valor tried to fight other shards.

Justice could have a vessel unconcerned with the outside world, perhapse thinking it Just to give each shard their own domain and not interfere, some took actual Oath at the Shattering.

[Shob the Voidbringer]

at first i thought Odium + Honor could be justice, but then i thought possibly consequence, but that seems more like honor and ruin. maybe Odium + Honor = Control? or Discipline?

Edited January 13, 2021 by Shob the Voidbringer

[mathiau he/him]

53 minutes ago, Shob the Voidbringer said:

at first i thought Odium + Honor could be justice, but then i thought possibly consequence, but that seems more like honor and ruin. maybe Odium + Honor = Control? or Discipline?

Discipline seems more like Honour+Valour to me, and Odium seems the opposite of Control, Honour+Dominion might be Control? unless you meant self-control of in which case see the start of the sentence.

Edited January 13, 2021 by mathiau