Contrast of OathBringer & Rhythem of War

[quackquack]

After completing RoW something didn’t sit right for me. That feeling wasn’t going away. This was my attempt in distilling how i felt into something coherent regarding  ex thoughts and feelings surrounding RoW and to a lesser extent OB. I have seen people with negative opinions with RoW and those who praise it. I see the good and it, but it left me with a bad taste in my mouth. I hope this can be something of a bridge of the two camps.

 Expect spoilers.

TLDR START 

Foreshadowing is not a bad thing. It’s a delicate balance is required. For example, don’t believe many people could have been surprised by Kaladin swearing the fourth ideal. It’s very clearly laid out in the Knights Radiant/magic system and intrinsic to Kaladins character growth. In contrast the lack of foreshadowing can be very detrimental to an experience.

The pendulum of OathBringer and Rhythm of War. 

I would argue that the problem with Oathbringer was the seeming aimlessness of Kaladin traveling through an occupied land, followed by the sudden shift to Kolinar. Once arriving to Kolinar tensions slowly build with a large crescendo of things going poorly,  at its peak. Poof. You’re in shadesmar. The pacing, the expectations, the narrative, reset. Expectations not only subverted but abandoned.  

There is no goal, in and of its self, to being in Shadesmar. The wonder of what it could be is overshadowed by what happened in Kolinar.  Shadesmar is only a means to an end, an obstacle to overcome. The characters want to get back home and get back in the action, to get to Dalinar. The reader know things are Building at Thaylan City. Shadesmar was hinted on mysteriously ever since the first book. Ideally shadesmar would have been introduced less abruptly and they would have a goal with in it. Like what happened in RoW.

On the swing side. Rhythm of War almost seems like the inverse of Oath bringer. Include whatever anti-light pun you need to. Where as OB had an issue with aimless. RoW has an issue with uncomplicated/straight forward plot points and set up. The Sibling nodes The repetitive nature of Kaladins arch with visions from multiple people, the repetitive nature of Kaladins arch bleeds into Navanis arc as well. Shallan and Adolin going to Lasting integrity. A mostly Glossed over war that the stakes never felt too highwith Dalinar, Renarin and Jasnah. Plot points were laid out, and were then followed threw with. In retrospect It feels like you were cheated Out of the journey, even though the Destinations, the payoffs were powerful and well done. . There is always tension, and fear that things wont go to plan. But the problem with RoW is, it largely did what it told you it would. 

I enjoyed the first 2 books. I enjoyed book 3 more upon a second read  in anticipation for RoW. RoW seems like a contradiction of the knighted radians mantra. Journey before destination. To me RoW seems like destination over the journey.

TLDR OVER

 

This was my attempt to crystallize my thoughts in full. The tldr is the distilled version.

Kaladin

Kaladin being relieved of duty was an impactful scene. Kals following internal conflict is well done and believe able. I found Tefts following him an awkward choice, Though I think its in character of Teft, sine he’s grown, it’s just a curve ball to me. Kaladins friction with his father is well done. Kaladins desire to help those who are like him is touching, I feel as if I would read a book just on Kaladins reformation of how mental illness is treated.

 

The initial invasion was exciting. From there, it goes down hill For me. Occupation stories are a narrative slump for me. This is compounded by the plot points.The repetitive nature of Kaladin having to run to a node and destroy it as a delaying action for the seemingly inevitable.

 

Kaladins defining characteristics are his god/persecution complex, his blaming himself. His need to protect and punishing himself if fails himself or others. That’s well and good, and can be interesting to read about, this mans navigation of his  short comings, him standing in the way of himself. Nagivating and overcoming an internal struggle, or failing, in the case of Moash. Ultimately maturing as a person.

I believe it was handled well, until a point. When Kaladin is confronted in the clinic by the fused,

 

Urutheru and the node muguffins Issue.

The mystery surrounding the spanread Navani receives, and who was on the other end was interesting. Dabid having screen held a lot of potential ad it payed off well. 

The last ditch defence of the tower is well done. Navani Rising to the occasion. Kaladins internal struggle of wanting to defend the only way he’s know how to for years, juxtaposed to his fathers level headed long term approach to the situation. 

The invasion had one of my favourite interactions between characters  in the book. This a interaction frustrations me in retrospect.  A  dark eyes man promoted beyond what until recently tradition allow for. A queen taking up martial defence and responsibilities. The brief interaction they had was really wonderful. And soon after the dark eyes man Sarcrafices himself.. Perhaps I only like him because of lost potential and perhaps that is why it’s impactful to me.

The introduction the Fused Raboniell was done will. The interactions of leshwi, Robonial and the pursuer in Kolinar was an interesting to subvert readers expectations of how Raboniell would behave.

The interactions between Raboniell and Navani were great. The Manipulation, the damned if you do, damned if you don’t aspect was well done. Raboniell really carries Navanies viewpoints.  I could have done without a lot of the anti-light or it could have been cut down. I don’t mean to be too harsh, but it felt somewhat myopic in some aspects the word technobable comes to mind. I enjoyed the interactions Nevani and Raboniell had. And navani coming to accept that she had underestimated herself, that she is capable. I am very aware of the implications, cosmire wide, of an anti-light/anti-investiture/nullification. Ultimately, it serves as set up for book five. 

 

 

 

 

The sibling reluctance and trust issues are understandable. IT is an interesting entity. I don’t know if the way it was introduce was handled well. I liked the spanread and all that. And the Dabid who doesn’t speak finally having a roll to play in things. I feel like the occupation hinders so many aspects of this book. The stakes are high , but at the same time it almost feels formulaic.

 

Kaladins steadfastness to what task even though it get’s more and more challenging is harrowing. As a whole, his arch felt like it was too spread out. I understand that it could be seen as his decent into depression, no matter what you do, things not getting better, but always having to preserver for those around you, if you can’t feel good, you can strive to make those around you feel good. 

With Kaladins bread and butter powers stripped of him, he if forced to adapt and use the tools navani had crafted as well as his powers of adhesion and reverse lashings. This could have been far more interesting. Most of this seemed as if Kaladin was just stumbling, but somehow able to carry on. I don’t know if the decapitation scene makes up for that.Having to be reminded every time a node was destroyed that kaladins grasp on his remaining abilities as well as his abilities to heal slowed each time, was too repetitive. If this was meant to renforece that his mental and physical state were become in more & more similar, I get that. It just didn’t work for me.

 

In some ways I feel this is the inverse of my issue with OB and the   Kolinar arc, being unexpectedly transported to Shadsmar. That was too abrupt and left the readers at a lost of what the new goals in this reset of naritive were.

With the nodes, you have a far too simplistic understanding of what to expect from Navani and Kaladins arcs. You already know where the peaks of actions will be. Sure, you don’t know in exacting detail,. But you already know the plot point, and the rest is filler.

 

In conjunction of the node problem there Is Kaladins Outside manipulations. Stoping to think about it, Kaladin is influenced telepathically at the very least 4 times. Once by Witt. Twice by Dalinar. At muliple times by Moash, every time he slept essentially. That’s adds up, I’m not going to go back to count, I feel it’s as least 6 times.

I understand that it’s possible to send visions in the storm light archives, I understand that’s possible to communicate through them. Damn, that was Dalinars bit, Kaladin stole and ran with it. If I didn’t have a problem with it with Dalinar, why now?

I think it’s because there is far less mystic to these visions and communications. They were a focal point, a fulcrum, a mystery one mans sanity being questioned. A mans burden, then what eventually brought together nations.

Moash influencing Kaladins dreams is very repetitive and seems somewhat cliche with the tone of the dreams/visions that Kaladin experiences. I understand Moash understands Kaladin and knows what strings to strum to run him down. And this is a subversion of earlier use of visions in the storm light archive, which were a naritive  device used as foreshadowing and world building.

The stormfather gave people visions. Moash give Kaladin visions thanks to odium. Hoid hijacks one and gives Kaladin a pep talk though the guise of a story. You can compare Kaladins reaction to this story to the first and get a good idea of Kaladins emotional sate. Even though it is a touching interaction between Hoid and Kaladin, the repeated use of visions and conveniences that are associated with it really put a damper on this scene.

 

 

Dalinar rides the highstorm thanks to the Storm father. Dalinar dose this out of suspicion of the security Urutheru. Dalinar sore over the tower and it seems somewhat suspicious to him. He catches a glimps of Kaladin and wrestles with the storm father to assist Kaladin to safety. Kaladin is also able to communicate that the tower has been compromised. This was far too convenient. 

This convenience is  compounded by it happening a second time near the end of the book. Kaladin jump off the tower to save his father that was plummeting. Kaladin has no hope of saving his father or living. Luckily, they are currently in a highstorm and Dalinar is riding it. He cannot save. Him this time, but he has to try something, he induces a vision. 

This vision was beautiful. The selflessness and kindness of Kaladins brother. Bring together those who were scared like him and put on a strong face and comforted his comrades before they were cut down. Kaladins being able to speak to his brother and finally accepting that he can’t save everyone, and people, much as he continually has done, will make their choices. He has to live with his limitations and accept others choices. This was a very touching moment. Unfortunately the way in which we reached this moment feels hallow, and frustratingly convenient.

The moment Kaladin is able to speak the fourth ideal, and Dalanar accepting is was long awaited moment. We knew it was coming. Kaladin had come so close to losing everything, but pulls up before he meets the ground, with his father in hand. Even now it is a powerful moment. The end result was satisfying,  the anticipation and expectation  of finally learning more about radiant armour and seeing it utilized.

The end result was satisfying. Not the build up. The constant use of visions and mental manipulations. The repetitive nature of the siblings nodes defence. The fact we knew the plot points before having read a good chunk of the book

 

 

Journey before destination. Though, this book feels like the journey was secondary to the destinations that were reached.

 

 

This problem is pervasive through the book. It is a reaction to book three, as I see it.. Plot points are introduced and essentially layout what the reader  can expect. There’s always the potential that things wont go as they should and a subversion will happen the tension is there. But more or less, it happens as expected.

 

Setup, shallan has been ordered to go to Lasting Integrity in Shadesmar by the Ghost blood to kill a Harold. Aedolen is tasked with convincing the Honour spren to join forces with them so they can gave more windrunnders. Hickups happen. But they do arrive at Lasting Integrity. The Harold is found, isn’t killed, and ends up being the judge of Adolins trial. I assume that Mayas outburst assured that the honour spren will join the radiants.

 

Setup 

Urutheru is under occupation. The fused are after the sibling, they want to corrupt the sibling with void light which will let them control the tower.There is a contingency measure in place. A force field is erected around the sibling.The catch is that there are 3 nodes that the are hidden. The fused are looking to corrupt the sibling through the nodes with void light. Kaladin has to destroy these nodes, with the aid of the Sibling and Navanim, as a delaying tactic once the nodes are discovered by the Fused.

There are three targets, but this could been subverted, but all three nodes were a part of the plot.

 

Setup

The war being waged by Dalinar, Jasnah, Renarin, and the Mink. This is set up. And then is mostly background dressing and something for these characters to do. I appreciated the Jasnah chapter on the battle field.. But that’s about it.

 

These are two examples of far too much setup. Too much setup leads to it feeling like filler. I can even mention how Anti-light was discovered, and how it is set up for he next book. How the interaction between Dalinar and the bond smith Harold is setup for book five. Shinovar is also very heavily foreshadowed to be in book five. As well as the ominous ten days.

 

Unexpected and not spoon fed.

Taravangains arch. Him becoming the vessel for the shard of Odium.

Cultivation felt under utilized until I realized in this book that she appeared to Dalinar, Lift and Taravangain. I was curious about how much of Terovangian mental state was random, or how much of it was dictated by Cultivation herself. Cultivation using Taravangain. Cultivation allowing Dalinar to remember his past in OB. And the jury is still out on Lift.

Hoid and Taravangains interaction is very ominous and speaks of things to come. I initially felt as if Hoid was more of an observer and wasn’t. This is a great subversion.

[Quick Ben he/him]

I think you articulated my feelings on RoW better then i did myself, agree with pretty much everything you said, i found the book to be tedious due to its repetiveness and fact that the story barely moved, story that we got could of been told in 400 pages, instead was 1219 pages of which most was filler, story has barely moved since WoR in fact, in my opinion, and that is with a 1 year skip from OB to RoW even.

 

 

[Alatar he/him]

It's too late and I'm tired so I've only read some parts but I see the picture and just wanted to add one thing:

These books are big, each one is bigger that all the LoTR story (the 3 volumes), and they are comprised of a lot of stories and characters and arcs. I think that you'll like one book or another, or none at all or love all of them depending on how much of what you like and dislike takes the space of that specific book. I, for example, struggled with WoK but found the scene of Bridge 4 rescue and then Dalinar handling the Shardblade to be the most epic thing I've ever read, so I liked it, don't remember anything of notice of WoR, OB feels the same as Wok, boring in parts but an epic ending that I love, RoW has some boring parts but the bits that I love compensate them.

That was my example, everybody will have a different mix and some will love WoR while they'll loathe OB or whatever they feel about each book. This grows with each volume because we expect each one to be bigger, more epic, more magic. But I think the books in itself are awesome and all the parts are very well written, it's just that some things I like and some I don't. For example, R.A. Salvatore Crimson Shadow has a 200 pages battle. It bore me to death, but I know for a fact that some people enjoy that a lot. I can't stand Gabriel Garcia Marquez's magic realism, but it's praised all over the world. It's not that the plot is badly written, it's that there are several story arcs and your sensibilities make you enjoy some and hate others, and that's OK. Just seeing the "summary" that @quackquack has done in the OP, we can realise the amazing amount of stuff there is in this book.

For the people who say that the story hasn't advanced, really, you should check how many things happen, to the characters, to the state of the war, to the countries, to the secret societies, to Shadesmar, to the cosmere... Really, A LOT of things happened in this book, maybe you're not interested in some of the things that happen, but they happened nonetheless, and to other people eyes, they're very interesting.

[quackquack]

I enjoyed RoW.  Not as much as the  previous books. I'm looking forward to book five and looking at the first five books of the ten as a whole.  I'm speaking to the issues I ran I to with OB & RoW.  

I enjoyed WoKs all the way threw.   Every POV. I find Shallans POV to be underrated in WoK. 

WoR built very well upon the foundation of WoK. Kaladin integrating into the military.    Shallan exploring her abilities. The continued exploration and implication of Dalinars visions and novice political maunverings. 

I personally enjoyed the exploration of Uruthiru in OB.  Even though I have my issues with it.  

I dont have an issue with the length. and I am captivated by the world of the Stormlight archive.  I am not bored or uninterested with these books, I wouldn't read them if that were the case.    

You mentioned compensation. I disagree with the sentiment.   And this is my main issue.   I am interested in what's happening in the book.   It's how it's being told to us that is the issue,   Not what's being told.  

I dont believe a nice set peice at the end counts as a satisfying payoff if it comes at the cost, IE "compensate" for what you call the boring parts.   I dont think it is boring.   I just think it's an issue with how its presented.  

I dont expect something bigger and better than the last.   I want a compelling and entertaining narrative.  Not one that frustrates and gets in it's own way.  Sure, subjectivity and personal preference will always be used as an an excuse to smooth out the creases.   These issues I point out by no mean ruin the book or make it unredeamable, it makes me anticipate the 5th book to see how these built up plot threads are treated.  But I can still be critical and point out the pain points that people are having with RoW.  

 

I wouldn't agree that the story hasnt advanced since RoW.   One could point out that the weight of what happened at the end of WoR as the last large development.    But stories vary in scope. Every book has served a purpose to the series as a whole. WoKs was completing to me and its scope wasnt massive it set things up.  WoR built on it and set the stakes to the highest point in the series, I'd argue. OB set the stage for the conflict between Odium and the radiants.  RoW only introduced anti-light and set up for the fifth book.  

 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

I agree with most of this, especially Kaladin’s oath. I hated the way it happened. Like you said: by the time we got there it felt hollow.