Disappointing

[ftl]

I'm definitely very curious about Navani and Sibling going forward.

Yeah, it was absolutely a bond forged of the situation. Navani had to be just barely worthy enough to be better for the Sibling than dying, and yeah, she cleared that bar, but it's definitely a war relationship - built off of a common purpose (not dying) rather than, so far, shared ideals.

But now they're together, and gonna have to live with each other, and I'm super excited to see how that goes.

[Rorzikel]

39 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I agree with literally all of this. I HATED Navani bonding the Sibling.

Yeah. It's hard sometimes to talk to people about it because I don't want to come off as dismissing Navani's growth, but I also really dislike the idea that a person's worth is only valid if everyone around them compromises their own ideals to support them.

[IndigoAjah]

13 hours ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

The problem for me with Navani bonding the Sibling is that it seems entirely focused around Navani's journey of finding her own self-worth and railroads the Sibling into validating that journey at the expense of their very real issues about how Navani treats spren and with a heavy dose of coercement in that the Sibling has been tortured throughout the story and will be killed if they don't bond someone.

I know some people don't comparing spren bonds to romantic relationships, but I'm going to do so anyways. Imagine that you are a veterinarian, you spend your time taking care of animals and advocating for their safety. One day you learn that I am running a dogfighting ring in which I am capturing and abusing dogs, you naturally hate this and with no other form of recourse you begin sending me threatening messages hoping that I'll stop. One night you are attacked by a serial killer who begins hunting you down and in the process giving you several terrible wounds, all the while you feel your inevitable death closing in. I, a man who you hate deeply, offer to save you if you date me. You say no. I say that I've been overcoming abuse from an ex and now realize that I have self-worth and that as a result you should date me. I give you no clear assurances that I'll stop dogfighting but remind you that you're going to die. You give in and we fight off the serial killer.

This is Stockholm Syndrome and a hefty case of a Leonine contract at best.

Like I get it. Navani is an incredibly brave woman and a genius scholar who was gaslighted terribly by an absolute piece of crem and that her refinding her confidence is inspiring and a wonderful character arc. It just feels like it's kneecapping the Sibling's agency as a way to sort of crown Navani's accomplishments, and dashed my hopes that we'd either get a Singer Bondsmith as a way of truly bridging the divide between the two sides as it shows even the greatest of roles are open to Singers or that a man like Dabbid who is mentally handicapped and overlooked and ignored almost completely like he isn't even a person can in spite of that become one

Instead Dabbid is relegated back to the shadows having served his purpose as "weird guy who gets to helps Kaladin and the Sibling," Rlain finds only more proof that all the spren of Honor and Cultivation really are just anti-singer racists and that the only way he could get a spren is if a corrupted one bonds him, and yet another Kholin gets to be Radiant and make a Bondsmith power couple. Joy.

Despite the awesome moment of "Journey over Destination, you bastard", I agree with this. It's coerced, for sure, and seemingly irreversible too, though I don't think it's coerced by Navani as such. I don't blame either Navani or The Sibling for giving in to it to survive. I hope it's portrayed as a morally dubious decision, and maybe even painted in comparison to Navani's first marriage, also a dubious marriage of convenience, albeit somewhat more autonomous.

 

 

[wotbibliophile]

@MyrmidonOfAchilles Thank you so much for speaking for the Sibling. I feel a lot more for the Sibling than I do for Navani. I was rooting for Rlain (or Dabbid). When he was turned away I still hoped he would get to Sibling in time.

I actually really dislike how Dalinar treats the Stormfather as well. He forced a bond on the Stormfather at the end of WoR. This is terrible to me. What is with bondsmiths? They all seem to be able to coerce spren. I disaprove.

[IndigoAjah]

13 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

Despite the awesome moment of "Journey over Destination, you bastard", I agree with this. It's coerced, for sure, and seemingly irreversible too, though I don't think it's coerced by Navani as such. I don't blame either Navani or The Sibling for giving in to it to survive. I hope it's portrayed as a morally dubious decision, and maybe even painted in comparison to Navani's first marriage, also a dubious marriage of convenience, albeit somewhat more autonomous.

 

 

Thw other thing is that I really don't think Navani NEEDED to Bond the Sibling in terms of arc and growth. She had a great arc anyway. 

[+Oltux72]

On 2.12.2020 at 8:38 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I agree with literally all of this. I HATED Navani bonding the Sibling.

So did the Sibling. You should probably liken the bond more to marriage than to anything else. And in many cultures marriages is not based on love primarily.

On 2.12.2020 at 9:13 AM, ftl said:

But now they're together, and gonna have to live with each other, and I'm super excited to see how that goes.

That is going to be fun.

11 hours ago, wotbibliophile said:

I actually really dislike how Dalinar treats the Stormfather as well. He forced a bond on the Stormfather at the end of WoR. This is terrible to me. What is with bondsmiths? They all seem to be able to coerce spren. I disaprove.

They are Bondsmiths, not Libertysmiths. If you want that go the Willshapers. Honor is about oaths and keeping them. Any oath is good. If you said something, you have said it, reason is irrelevant. The Stormlight Archive cannot be reduced to a story of Good vs. Evil.

[Gisaku75]

On 30/11/2020 at 11:36 PM, Quick Ben said:

Navani becoming a bondsmith also irked me, might as well rename the series the Kholin Chronicles at this point. Got really tired of her chapters, and quite dislike her character now. For a smart woman she is seriously dumb in this book, making child like mistakes with Rabional.

This is the thing that bothers me the most. Fundamentally all positions of power are occupied by Dalinar and his family while the others, including Kaladin, do nothing but obey. In the end it is the story of an elite that expands in its power and grants only an illusion of equality to all others.

[+Oltux72]

15 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

This is the thing that bothers me the most. Fundamentally all positions of power are occupied by Dalinar and his family while the others, including Kaladin, do nothing but obey.

There is the Azish emperor. It has to be said to maintain fairness.

15 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

In the end it is the story of an elite that expands in its power and grants only an illusion of equality to all others.

The Spren and Honor indirectly have had a political goal, namely fighting a war. They have been acting accordingly.

Do you want stories with a realistic concept of politics or not?

[Gisaku75]

26 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

There is the Azish emperor. It has to be said to maintain fairness.

The Spren and Honor indirectly have had a political goal, namely fighting a war. They have been acting accordingly.

Do you want stories with a realistic concept of politics or not?

The only decision the emperor made was to fully support Dalinar . And in reality in almost the whole civilized world the people have deposed the nobility that ruled by divine right, replacing it with democracy. It did not happen by courtesy of the kings but thanks to the people's uprisings. Spren should bond with people who embody certain ideals regardless of race and class, in this book it seems that only the Kholin and their underlings are worthy, a little too comfortable. In reality, being the son or relative of a great man does not at all mean being equally skilled. On balance both Navani and Jasnah can be considered the smartest only because most people are kept in ignorance. It is totally unrealistic that a nation like Azis, with a high schooling rate, does not even have a scientist on par with Navani.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Gisaku75

[Ruin's Scariest Koloss]

15 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

The only decision the emperor made was to fully support Dalinar . And in reality in almost the whole civilized world the people have deposed the nobility that ruled by divine right, replacing it with democracy. It did not happen by courtesy of the kings but thanks to the people's uprisings. Spren should bond with people who embody certain ideals regardless of race and class, in this book it seems that only the Kholin and their underlings are worthy, a little too comfortable. In reality, being the son or relative of a great man does not at all mean being equally skilled.

The story largely follows the Kholins. It's the bias of our perspective that makes it seem like they're the only radiants when in the big picture, the vast majority of radiants are not Kholins. If you want to complain about them having two Bondsmiths, I'll give you that one though.

[Gisaku75]

21 minutes ago, Ruin's Scariest Koloss said:

The story largely follows the Kholins. It's the bias of our perspective that makes it seem like they're the only radiants when in the big picture, the vast majority of radiants are not Kholins. If you want to complain about them having two Bondsmiths, I'll give you that one though.

Not so, all the Kholin have become radiant or are close to them. Even Ekodar could become one, the others are random people who still obey Dalinar and his family. Even Kaladin ultimately only plays a passive role in the story.

[IndigoAjah]

1 hour ago, Gisaku75 said:

The only decision the emperor made was to fully support Dalinar . And in reality in almost the whole civilized world the people have deposed the nobility that ruled by divine right, replacing it with democracy. It did not happen by courtesy of the kings but thanks to the people's uprisings. Spren should bond with people who embody certain ideals regardless of race and class, in this book it seems that only the Kholin and their underlings are worthy, a little too comfortable. In reality, being the son or relative of a great man does not at all mean being equally skilled. On balance both Navani and Jasnah can be considered the smartest only because most people are kept in ignorance. It is totally unrealistic that a nation like Azis, with a high schooling rate, does not even have a scientist on par with Navani.

Who says they don't?

[Ruin's Scariest Koloss]

42 minutes ago, Gisaku75 said:

Not so, all the Kholin have become radiant or are close to them. Even Ekodar could become one, the others are random people who still obey Dalinar and his family. Even Kaladin ultimately only plays a passive role in the story.

None of the Skybreakers besides Szeth are loyal to Dalinar. The Dustbringers have made it clear they're not part of his chain of command. That's ~20% of all Radiants right there that are not obedient to the Kholins. Plus the Reachers are reluctant to bond any humans, and the one that we know of bonded Venli, who again is not really loyal to anyone except herself.

Can you explain how Kaladin's role is passive? It seemed to me that his role in RoW was one of the biggest. He got more screen time than just about anyone (besides maybe Navani) and made a lot of important moves. He is critical to defending Urithuru. Not to mention he absolutely wrecks the Pursuer twice, which apparently has never happened in any previous desolation.

[IndigoAjah]

1 hour ago, Ruin's Scariest Koloss said:

None of the Skybreakers besides Szeth are loyal to Dalinar. The Dustbringers have made it clear they're not part of his chain of command. That's ~20% of all Radiants right there that are not obedient to the Kholins. Plus the Reachers are reluctant to bond any humans, and the one that we know of bonded Venli, who again is not really loyal to anyone except herself.

Can you explain how Kaladin's role is passive? It seemed to me that his role in RoW was one of the biggest. He got more screen time than just about anyone (besides maybe Navani) and made a lot of important moves. He is critical to defending Urithuru. Not to mention he absolutely wrecks the Pursuer twice, which apparently has never happened in any previous desolation.

I think it's because Kal is either always reacting or following orders, except in his best bit where he invents mental health medicine. But then, he's a soldier, in the end in a war that's what he's gonna be doing.

[Rorzikel]

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

So did the Sibling. You should probably liken the bond more to marriage than to anything else. And in many cultures marriages is not based on love primarily.

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They are Bondsmiths, not Libertysmiths. If you want that go the Willshapers. Honor is about oaths and keeping them. Any oath is good. If you said something, you have said it, reason is irrelevant. The Stormlight Archive cannot be reduced to a story of Good vs. Evil.

It can, however, be reduced into both Likeable and Hateable, and Honorable and Dishonorable. Likeability is the difference between Moash (who we've seen kill like 5 people onscreen) and Dalinar (who burned thousands of noncombatants including children to death because he was angry). Yet we like Dalinar more because what we see onscreen biases us to like him more (protagonist bias, introduced as an good man originally, positive interactions with other characters we like) even though from both a utilitarian and deontological basis Dalinar has done far more wrong and caused far more net suffering. On the note of Honorability, the whole story has about how characters embrace true honor over a false one. Many of the Alethi have risen up against the ego-stroking, violent and flawed interpretation of honor in their culture and rejected it. 

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Honor is about oaths and keeping them. Any oath is good. If you said something, you have said it, reason is irrelevant.

Maybe so. It's certainly what Odium thought the purest form of Honor should be, removed from any restraint by a vessel, but I doubt Tanavast would approve of what he became as he slipped into a death induced madness.

Quote

“Honor cared only for bonds. Not the meaning of bonds and oaths, merely that they were kept.”

If Kal behaved the way Dalinar and Navani do to Syl, I'd probably have dropped the story. 

[+Bliev]

I totally understand these views, though I do disagree a bit with this. I agree that the Navani/Sibling bond was forced and unnatural, and not at all as compelling as the Kal/Syl bond, for instance, or Pattern/Shallan, etc. I was uncomfortable with the coercion that occurred, though I think it was less manipulative and more desperate in both of their cases. 

I do want to push back a bit on the Dalinar/Navani as the "bad side" in their relationships with their spren. What we've seen is that, contrary to what they believe, spren *can* change, particularly via their bonds with humans. We see Syl grow in sentience, but also empathy, etc. The SF's arc in this book was all about Dalinar pushing him to add compassion/mercy to his focus on the honorable path. To show him he has a choice. And Dalinar realizing that sometimes he's right for pushing for that and sometimes he's wrong, with self-awareness as the key to making better choices next time (e.g., when Dalinar knew he would have pushed the SF too far and the SF was right to hold back from him vs. when Dalinar knew he needed to push the SF to intervene with Kal because it was *right*). Same here--the Sibling is rigid and naive. But also scared and worthy of respect merely for existing. Navani and they have fundamental value differences. But that doesn't mean they can't bridge that gap. After all, furthering their bond means they will have to find a way to bridge that gap, if they both want to.

Bondsmith spren are different from the other spren we see. They have more autonomy, they are more stubborn and rigid, and they thus will have more of a fight with their human to figure out the right step forward and agree upon it. And I think that's how it should be. Bondsmith powers are the greatest powers, so they should be harder to develop and come by, and there should be a more antagonistic partnership where each entity pushes the other to be better, to think harder, to grow. In some ways its an analogue of Jasnah's desire to somewhat democratize Roshar--councils make better leaders than dictators--even the benevolent ones. And I think that we will see that tension in the Todium clash too--because King T has always felt a dictator was best, and Dalinar fundamentally agrees with that. Dalinar saw the value in Jasnah's words in his final meeting with Rayse, and I think it'll be a point of growth for all of them moving forward. 

[Djerf]

In respons to the op, the book do contain weaknesses and how we value them is different, maybe different each time we read it. 

I did enjoy RoW, it's up there with WoK for me, on the other hand I found WoR to a dissapointment and OB to be close to a series wrecker.

 

And yes, i managed to put in spoiler boxes that I don't know how to remove on my phone...

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

 

[Quick Ben]

On 12/1/2020 at 0:07 AM, Alatar said:

I included some spoilers, I think we're in the Spoiler section, but I warn just in case.

 

Hi Ben:

 

      Let's see, I've seen some other similar reviews, very few, and I'm trying to understand them, but I can't really share them. For me, each Sanderson book gets better than the previous, probably because he's becoming a better writer, but I can see there are people that aren't enjoying the latest installments of SA. I think maybe your focus is wrong, maybe this series is not for you, or for you at this point in your life. See, I say this because this series is heavy, it's heavy on pages, yes! but also on characters and emotion. All the characters in the series (except maybe Mr. Adonis Adolin) have mental issues, the minimum of which is Navani's self deprecation, the Fused and all KR have all mental issues because that's the theme of the magic in this world, spren join damaged spirit webs and reinforce them. Also, Sanderson said this is the series which lays more heavily on the concept of the cosmere. In the first book it was in the background, but it's coming more to the front with every book. We now see why, in this book we get the reveal that Rayse wants an army to conquer the cosmere and Splinter all other Shards (or something like that). In the Dawnshard novella we get more heavily into the cosmere, even. And, finally, many people complain of one character or another. Well, it's obvious that we all have favorite characters and, when we don't get enough screen time of them, we feel disappointed. But that's not the writer's demerit, that's just a consequence of being a book full of interesting characters. My favorite character is Lift, which is a secondary character. I wished she got more time but, that's the way it is!

     The cosmere, the science of magic, the manipulations, all these things I loved, specially Raboniel's character, which is still ruthless and evil to our perception because she's the protagonists' enemy, but which is very interesting and has a lot of aspects. You may think that Navani makes childish decisions but really, I read them as Raboniel rigging the conditions so that Navani behaves as she wants to, and remember that she's 7000 years old and has lived through hundreds of wars, probably in a position of strategist and intrigue, learning about humans and how to manipulate them. In the end, she left Navani with two options: do as she wanted to or do nothing. People in power are not known for sitting and doing nothing.

     In OB I had a little more difficulty, specially with the Shadesmar trip (I don't really like travel books, specially sailing stories), but I really devoured this one. And OB has probably the most epic and spectacular moment (well, moment, it's 5 chapters long or so, but still), which maybe this book lacks. In turn, it has a lot of emotional moments: Maya in the trial, Shallan's reckoning (Shallan is my least favorite, but still it's good), Kaladin's uprising, Dalinar and Ishar, Eshonai's death and, my favorite, Raboniel and Navani's arc. Really, if I can say anything of this book is that I'd have more of the Lady of Wishes, the arc from Part One to the end leads you to every place with her, fear, awe, understanding, sadness...

     So, really, if you didn't like the book, don't brood on it but think, wasn't the book good enough or were your expectations too high? Because, really, it seems that every book has to raise the ante. For me, WoR felt like a bit of a down because WoK was so awesome and epic, got another epic and bigger ending in OB and this is the 4th in a 5 (10) series book, so it doesn't end in the peak, because it has to set the ground for the final mid series. Specially, that timeline of ten days makes this seem less like a cohessive story and more like a "Will Be Continued..." but, well, it's the 4th in 5, see how The Empire Strikes Back ends, it's essentially the same.

      Finally, I don't want to diminish the valor of your opinions, I respect that you and so many others didn't like the book, but I wanted to expose some of the reasons I love it so that you can see that there's nothing wrong with it or the writer or yourself, it's just that maybe this book isn't for you right now, I've read some books that I didn't like years ago but revisited them and loved them years after, and viceversa, maybe you haven't Connected with the writer's Intent right now, that doesn't mean that any of the three (writer, book, reader) have nothing wrong.

Apologies for delay in replying, haven't had time.

Hi Alatar, 

The story being heavy on pages, characters and emotion has nothing to do with it, the issue is since WoR, its been light on story. In OB, story barely moved on, same here in RoW. In OB the story was bogged down by unnecesssary, repitive politics, in RoW, it is bogged down by repetitive "science" to the point where takes up most of the book, when could of been covered in alot fewer pages/chapters. Since WoR the books pace has become glacial, with both books being mainly filler.

As for Navani, with her child like relationship with Rabional, Rabional didnt have to manipulate her, she didn't have to outwit her, Navani was just naive to the point it wasnt believable. 

I am not brooding on the fact i found the book disappointing, it is just a fact imo that the book wasn't that good, maybe a 5/10. Because the story has completly stagnated. As for my expections they weren't high after OB.

On 12/1/2020 at 1:02 AM, Use the Falchion said:

Welcome to the Shard Quick Ben! (Love the username btw!) 

Thank you Falchion, from my favourite series

On 12/1/2020 at 2:47 AM, vhaloth said:

I agree that making Navani the bondsmith is a disappointing part. I was hoping Dabbid would be the one who will bond the Sibling since he was the first contact and he is not a Radiant. Also Navani and the Sibling contradicts each other since the Sibling doesn't want the spren to be "used" like what Navani is doing in her projects.

Navani becoming bondsmith doesn't sit well for numerous reasons, biggest being this series is becoming the Kholin Chronicles (for no valid reason i might add, as Dalinar isnt worthy of being a radiant either, as only reason he isn't odiums champion is because a different shard intervened, his whole character in WoK and WoR, was a lie) Navani is imo eaually undeserving, many seem to think her "i am not a scholar" mantra is self degrading, when its just a statement of fact, she is a financial backer, thats it, a financial backer in real world for example in building, they will gain enough insight into the trade to have good knowledge of it, be able to make suggestions, offer insights etc but that doesn't make them a builder, its same with Navani imo.

On 12/1/2020 at 8:11 AM, Oltux72 said:

It is nice to see some frank contrary posts.

Do you think that fans split in two camps, those that prefer the later half of SA and those that prefer the first half?

I think the reason don't see many contrary posts is as in a setting such as this overwhelming majoriity love the Author/books and people don't take kindly at times to criticism of same, 

3 hours ago, Djerf said:

In respons to the op, the book do contain weaknesses and how we value them is different, maybe different each time we read it. 

I did enjoy RoW, it's up there with WoK for me, on the other hand I found WoR to a dissapointment and OB to be close to a series wrecker.

 

And yes, i managed to put in spoiler boxes that I don't know how to remove on my phone...

  Reveal hidden contents

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Your right, its each to there own. And nothing wrong with that.

 

On phone so apologies for spelling errors

Edited December 3, 2020 by Quick Ben

[Guest Parallax]

On 12/2/2020 at 2:38 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I agree with literally all of this. I HATED Navani bonding the Sibling.

This is a consequence of the author messing up the moral issues that come up in the books which is now a chronic weakness of the series.

We don't know the moral status of sapient spren, are they equal to humans/singers or do they constitute a lower class? If someone breaks their oaths to kill their spren, should they stand trial? What moral obligations are imposed by a Nahel Bond? Why can't the Sibling undo their bond to Navani now that the enemy has been expelled from the tower? Is a bonded spren obligated to become a blade whenever their knight desires or can they refuse? If they are obligated what happens if they refuse? Are they capable of refusing in that context? Finally I find it odd that the reader is supposed to find the use of lesser spren in fabrials problematic while Kaladin orders Yunfah to bond Rlain. 

[Darth_Hel]

I'm not sure that the reader is supposed to believe that Kaladin ordering Yunfah to bond Rlain is a good thing, Rlain understands the reason but doesn't view it as a good thing. The moral status of Spren is something that the humans themselves are struggling with. Hell, the moral status of other people is something they're having trouble coming to terms with (Darkeyes starting to gain some equal footing, Rlain still deals with racism and distrust at Urithiru, etc). I don't think that characters getting things wrong or being unsure of things is a weakness. All we know about fabrials being wrong seems to come only from the Sibling as I don't think any other Spren have shown an issue with it. The Sibling could be something close to the Rosharan version of PETA and an extremist or maybe it is correct, and its something that Navani and the Sibling will need to work on. Perhaps the Sibling will help Navani learn to coax Spren into agreement in the future. 

A major issue in the book is that "Honor" is not a specific concept with one answer. Different characters have different reactions and thought processes. Thats why there are 10 Orders with different conceptions, and disagreements of it within the Orders and Spren themselves. What does a bonded Spren owe the person holding their bond and vice-versa seems to depend upon the individuals. Even whether the Oaths themselves are broken is heavily determined by whether the person feels they broke them. Morality and moral status are very grey here for the characters, and they're trying to figure it out as they go.

I don't think the issue is that Brandon is messing up the moral issues, but that as the books go on we're getting further away from direct societal analogues for every situation. Lighteyes versus Darkeyes has a very clear "Racism is Wrong" analog in society. "Are physical magical manifestations of concepts actual people and what do we owe them?" is a harder question

Edited December 4, 2020 by Darth_Hel

[Alatar]

20 minutes ago, Parallax said:

This is a consequence of the author messing up the moral issues that come up in the books which is now a chronic weakness of the series.

We don't know the moral status of sapient spren, are they equal to humans/singers or do they constitute a lower class? If someone breaks their oaths to kill their spren, should they stand trial? What moral obligations are imposed by a Nahel Bond? Why can't the Sibling undo their bond to Navani now that the enemy has been expelled from the tower? Is a bonded spren obligated to become a blade whenever their knight desires or can they refuse? If they are obligated what happens if they refuse? Are they capable of refusing in that context? Finally I find it odd that the reader is supposed to find the use of lesser spren in fabrials problematic while Kaladin orders Yunfah to bond Rlain. 

I've read that statement a lot of times, and as many times people try to clarify that point, they seem to be ignored. Kaladin doesn't ORDER Yunfah to bond Rlain, he orders him to consider Rlain as he's being sidelined just for being non human, that means, discriminated because of his race. He even gives Yunfah a timeline (2 weeks IIRC) to consider it before he can move to another squire. That means Yunfah has the choice, he's just ordered to stop discriminating Rlain. And that, when Syl tells Kaladin that he could probably order him to bond.

On the morals of sapient spren, that's also a common human mistake. We humanize animals, objects and, in this case, supernatural beings from fantasy books. Spren aren't human in the sense that human being, although bound by morals and upbringing, are really free to act. You can actually act against your moral principles or values, while a spren would break (die) if it tried to do so. As Zahel / Vasher says, they are Investiture with awakened consciousness, but Investiture has Intent and Connection which bounds them. That's why the RK can't summon their Blades until the 3rd Ideal, for example, you need the Connection and Intent to align with that of your spren type. Once you reach that level, both spren and person are bonded in such a way that their intents align, so the RK won't summon the Blade to do something that the spren would disapprove. If they did, that would mean the bond breaking and, in the present situation, the spren becoming a deadeye. In fact, humans are so dangerous for spren because, as unlimited beings, they can act against their oaths, thus breaking the bonds and damaging the spren, but it'll be very difficult for a RK of a high Ideal to go against their oaths, because they're commited and the bond with their spren is really strong and also affects them. So, it's not that they have to debate with their spren whether to do this or that, they FEEL it through their bond. The only debates we see are nurturing said radiant towards advancment in the bond. As we see, they can even know how to advance, but they can refuse to do so because they're not commited (Kaladin's 4th Ideal, for example), or the advancment being denied because they're not really commited (Venli's 2nd one).

[Pathfinder]

On 12/2/2020 at 2:27 AM, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

The problem for me with Navani bonding the Sibling is that it seems entirely focused around Navani's journey of finding her own self-worth and railroads the Sibling into validating that journey at the expense of their very real issues about how Navani treats spren and with a heavy dose of coercement in that the Sibling has been tortured throughout the story and will be killed if they don't bond someone.

I know some people don't comparing spren bonds to romantic relationships, but I'm going to do so anyways. Imagine that you are a veterinarian, you spend your time taking care of animals and advocating for their safety. One day you learn that I am running a dogfighting ring in which I am capturing and abusing dogs, you naturally hate this and with no other form of recourse you begin sending me threatening messages hoping that I'll stop. One night you are attacked by a serial killer who begins hunting you down and in the process giving you several terrible wounds, all the while you feel your inevitable death closing in. I, a man who you hate deeply, offer to save you if you date me. You say no. I say that I've been overcoming abuse from an ex and now realize that I have self-worth and that as a result you should date me. I give you no clear assurances that I'll stop dogfighting but remind you that you're going to die. You give in and we fight off the serial killer.

This is Stockholm Syndrome and a hefty case of a Leonine contract at best.

Totally understand where you are coming from, and please do not take what I am about to say as indicating you have to change your opinion. Just offering another perspective/angle to view it.

 

Navani did not understand that her actions regarding spren were negative. She even made a point to check with the radiant spren and although some disapproved, there was no indication that it was harmful to the spren. Further when confronted with the sibling stating it was harmful, Navani did not resist or dig in her heels in resistance. She explained her misunderstanding and asked for more information. She sought greater understanding and accommodation. The circumstances prevented true discourse on the matter for much of the novel.

 

So taking the example you gave, it would be like Navani built a robot for robo battling. As far as she knows, it does not feel any pain or anything negative. It just gets repaired after each battle. Like nothing happened. Then you (only saying you as that is how you framed the example), tell her that the robot is in pain and to stop fighting immediately. Navani, the scientist, wanting to understand asks how that can be. Not in defiance but wanting to learn something new. All evidence she has had up until this point has told her it was fine. Now someone is saying it is not. All she is asking is for an explanation. In a perfect world, the sibling would have had a chance and the inclination to explain how it was damaging the spren and better options to maintain their bodily autonomy. But unfortunately even in Brandon’s book it is not a perfect world. The sibling did not want to hear her out nor explain. Urithiru was laid siege too preventing Navani from forming a genuine dialogue and trying to learn from the experience. So they were faced with a common cause and had to make it work.

 

Now once again, please don’t think I am trying to say you are wrong to feel as you do. Totally understand if you wish the story had been presented in a different manner so as to not be received in that way. Just saying Navani did try, but circumstances prevented a clearer overture. 

[Aiken Frost]

On 02/12/2020 at 4:27 AM, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

Like I get it. Navani is an incredibly brave woman and a genius scholar who was gaslighted terribly by an absolute piece of crem and that her refinding her confidence is inspiring and a wonderful character arc. It just feels like it's kneecapping the Sibling's agency as a way to sort of crown Navani's accomplishments, and dashed my hopes that we'd either get a Singer Bondsmith as a way of truly bridging the divide between the two sides as it shows even the greatest of roles are open to Singers or that a man like Dabbid who is mentally handicapped and overlooked and ignored almost completely like he isn't even a person can in spite of that become one

Instead Dabbid is relegated back to the shadows having served his purpose as "weird guy who gets to helps Kaladin and the Sibling," Rlain finds only more proof that all the spren of Honor and Cultivation really are just anti-singer racists and that the only way he could get a spren is if a corrupted one bonds him, and yet another Kholin gets to be Radiant and make a Bondsmith power couple. Joy.

I really liked this book, even though I think it could have about 200 pages less. Navani's chapters are some of my favorite in this book, even...

But this criticism here... That was freaking spot on. I was IMMENSELY disappointed with Navani being the Sibling's Bondsmith instead of Dabbid or Rlain. Rlain's ending was specially bitter to me, because he got even pulled a fast one in the end and won't even get to fly with his brothers of Bridge 4, ever.

[Rorzikel]

3 minutes ago, Aiken Frost said:

I really liked this book, even though I think it could have about 200 pages less. Navani's chapters are some of my favorite in this book, even...

But this criticism here... That was freaking spot on. I was IMMENSELY disappointed with Navani being the Sibling's Bondsmith instead of Dabbid or Rlain. Rlain's ending was specially bitter to me, because he got even pulled a fast one in the end and won't even get to fly with his brothers of Bridge 4, ever.

Glad to hear that what I've said has been resonating with some people. It might have been a bit more palatable if Rlain had gotten a void-Honorspren to bond, but being a void-Truthwatcher seems tacked on to his character.

[Guest Parallax]

On 2020-12-03 at 6:23 PM, Alatar said:

I've read that statement a lot of times, and as many times people try to clarify that point, they seem to be ignored. Kaladin doesn't ORDER Yunfah to bond Rlain, he orders him to consider Rlain as he's being sidelined just for being non human, that means, discriminated because of his race. He even gives Yunfah a timeline (2 weeks IIRC) to consider it before he can move to another squire. That means Yunfah has the choice, he's just ordered to stop discriminating Rlain. And that, when Syl tells Kaladin that he could probably order him to bond.

Everyone agrees it would be unacceptable if an employer told an employee that in order to keep their job they had to date the employer's son, even though the employee has a "choice" and that is what the discussion is about (relating Nahel bonds to relationships).

On 2020-12-03 at 6:23 PM, Alatar said:

On the morals of sapient spren, that's also a common human mistake. We humanize animals, objects and, in this case, supernatural beings from fantasy books. Spren aren't human in the sense that human being, although bound by morals and upbringing, are really free to act. You can actually act against your moral principles or values, while a spren would break (die) if it tried to do so.

That is a very minimal restriction given that each spren gets to define its own morals.

As for the rest of the post, aside from speculation about how oaths work (also Navani has only sworn the first ideal), it also ignores Dalinar summoning Stormfather to get out of Vedenar among other things.  

 

On 2020-11-30 at 4:36 PM, Quick Ben said:

Nothing really happened in RoW, there was a 1 year jump from OB to RoW, where not much happened either seemingly, then RoW was just repetive ? Same exact issues replayed over and over, same "science" done over and over, this book could of been 300/400 pages and contained the same amount of story as it did in the 1219 pages it actually had.

The 1-year jump in the story not only makes very little sense it actually creates consistency problems for the story. For example Raboniel shouldn't be looking for anti-investiture and should be hunting for Nightblood instead. After one year the Fused should know that Nightblood kills them permanently yet when we see the Fused convene and the Nine consider Raboniel's plan to take Urithiru the subject never even comes up. 

I also agree that the book is way too long (Eshonai's flashbacks; Kaladin defending the nodes, ...). In the end RoW reads like a poorly edited book, which is not that unexpected, when the author is as popular as Brandon is the publisher and the editor (who works for the publisher) become much more reluctant to tell the author to revise or rewrite substantial parts of the book.