Mraize's true nature

[Pathfinder]

So literally just finished rhythm of war and while reading it I had a thought that I had to get down. Don't know if anyone thought of this already but i believe Mraize is the rogue aimian. That is why he has scars on his face. To hide the seams between his cremlings. I'll add my other observations that led me to believe this tomorrow but just wanted to put it down while i had the chance

[Pathfinder]

Ok, so here is the supporting observations that led me to come to this conclusion 

1. Wit revealed that there is a siah aimian among the ghostbloods

Dawnshard spoilers

Spoiler

 

2. The siah aimians mentioned that there is one that has gone rogue

3. The siah aimian mentions that he has trouble imitating people and he is better than most which explains why even when disguised, mraize still comes off like mraize

4. The siah aimians take training from rysn who is "younger" to learn. So even if could be older than his babsk, he would still seek to learn from her and would explain constantly talking as a hunter from iyatle. He would feel that is how a human acts based on her.

5. The siah amian uses tattoos and scars to hide the seams between his cremlings as it is difficult to perfectly mimic a human. Everyone comments on how odd mraizes scars are and why doesn't he try to disguise them to better fit in. The reality he is using them to disguise him, but not in the way anyone expected.

 

 

I think that's everything off the top of my head.

[Blackwarder]

Can’t give any more likes buts that makes total sense.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

It is an intriguing idea, but I doubt it, based of this WoP:

Quote

Peter Ahlstrom

I think it's pretty clear in the book that Mraize is from Thaylenah.

Peter Ahlstrom

And I wasn't being sarcastic or joking when I said I thought it was obvious from the text that Mraize was a Thaylen from Thaylenah.

 

 

 

[Pathfinder]

35 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

It is an intriguing idea, but I doubt it, based of this WoP:

 

Although i certainly respect that the WoP is valid and could be seen that way, if ET gave birth to a alien kid while in new york, we could still call the new alien a New Yorker. The rogue aimian is a "relatively" recent issue. It could have split up in thaylenah and still count as thaylen. I think the real nail in the coffin would be if he was confirmed human. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

47 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Although i certainly respect that the WoP is valid and could be seen that way, if ET gave birth to a alien kid while in new york, we could still call the new alien a New Yorker. The rogue aimian is a "relatively" recent issue. It could have split up in thaylenah and still count as thaylen. I think the real nail in the coffin would be if he was confirmed human. 

Sure, it could be read that way. I personally consider it a stretch though. Another point against it, which struck me just now, is that the Ghostbloods really shouldn't use the hard-to-disguise-Sleepless as their primary contact person when dealing with non-Ghostbloods (Mraize is sent to recruit Shallan, hire Tyn and deal with Raboniel). It makes sense to have the Sleepless do stuff that wouldn't involve much interaction in which it could be discovered. 

(Also, can a Sleepless use a blowgun?)

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Sure, it could be read that way. I personally consider it a stretch though.

Totally respect to each their own

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Another point against it, which struck me just now, is that the Ghostbloods really shouldn't use the hard-to-disguise-Sleepless as their primary contact person when dealing with non-Ghostbloods (Mraize is sent to recruit Shallan, hire Tyn and deal with Raboniel).

Mraize wasn't sent to recruit Shallan. Shallan showed up in Tyn's place. Up until that point Tyn hadn't dealt with them in person. Finally as mentioned in my post above, it is remarked on numerous occasions that it is odd that Mraize disguises himself, yet is still very clearly Mraize. He doesn't change his affectations, nor how he carries himself. If fully blending in were a concern, then human or not, they shouldn't have chosen Mraize at all. 

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

It makes sense to have the Sleepless do stuff that wouldn't involve much interaction in which it could be discovered. 

(Also, can a Sleepless use a blowgun?)

Dawnshard spoilers

Spoiler

 

Sleepless have interacted on numerous occasions with people trying to get to their island. And on two occasions they held extended posts on ships. 

Sleepless can speak, and have cremlings bred to devour stormlight, look like the giant underwater great shell, look like hands, and etc. I do not feel it is a stretch for a cremling to push air enough to force a dart through a blow gun. 

 

For myself too many bits of information lined up one after the other in dawnshard and rhythm of war to be a coincidence, but I certainly respect that you disagree. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 23.11.2020 at 6:09 AM, Pathfinder said:

So literally just finished rhythm of war and while reading it I had a thought that I had to get down. Don't know if anyone thought of this already but i believe Mraize is the rogue aimian.

Why the rogue Aimian?

On 23.11.2020 at 6:09 AM, Pathfinder said:

That is why he has scars on his face. To hide the seams between his cremlings. I'll add my other observations that led me to believe this tomorrow but just wanted to put it down while i had the chance

OK, accepting the premise that he is an Aimian for the sake of argument I cannot see why you conclude from these clues that he is a rogue Aimian. It makes a ton of sense for the Sleepless to want an agent in the Ghostbloods.

Though with Mraize, if he is a worldhopper, there is an obvious issue with that. Is he really so "small" that he can get away with his impersonated body and a few trunks?

[Pathfinder]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why the rogue Aimian?

Honestly it just seems to line up to me. First it gets mentioned in dawnshard, and then in rhythm of war. Basically little tid bits of info that go bit by bit into more detail. First we know of the sleepless. Then we are told a way to spot them/how they try to hide their nature. Then we are told of there are specifically individuals that operate outside the group and that one we already met (arclo) is not among the worse. Then we get explicit word that one is working with the ghostbloods. So it made me think of who we know among the ghostbloods, and then i remembered mraize had scars that always looked odd...... so for me it links up. To see if more support it i have begun doing searches on mraize in the book. I have just started but i find the description of his scars (on face and hands) when we first met him interesting (also for a thaylen, mraize doesn't have the eyebrows. So he may have grown up there enough to culturally have the title and call his trainer a babsk, but ethnically even if he is human (which i don't think he is), he is not thaylen.:

 

Words of radiance page 491

The man turned around, revealing light violet eyes and a face scarred by old wounds, including a cut that ran down his cheek and deformed his upper lip. Though he looked refined—holding a goblet of wine in his left hand and dressed in the finest of suits—his face and hands told another story. Of battles, of killing, and of strife.

 

Then there is that his accent shallan cannot place. If he was human, grew up in thalenah, so he could be termed thaylen, and then worldhopped, he would have to be gone a very long time to lose the accent. Which certainly can be the case since we have a words of brandon that brandon wont answer how old mraize is, but that words of brandon could work in my favor just as much

 

Words of radiance page 491

The quiet way he spoke made Shallan shiver. She could not place his accent.

 

It is mentioned that most aimians dont breed to have "working" eyes so at times their vision can seem off. This quote is a stretch but could be interesting in such a context

 

Words of radiance page 491

He looked up at Shallan, blowgun loaded. Those violet eyes seemed like glass, his scarred face expressionless. The room seemed to hold its breath.

 

Just found this one that i find very interesting. Shallan thinks his fingers were broken. But what if they are cremling fingers not perfectly set since mraize is not as young and as proficient?

 

Words of radiance page 494

Mraize set down his empty cup of wine, and she saw that his right hand was scarred, the fingers crooked, as if they had been broken and badly reset.

 

I will continue to look for descriptions of Mraize, but so far this quick glance for me seems promising.

 

Edit: found another interesting description 

 

Words of radiance page 628

He had such a refined way of speaking. It didn’t seem to match his scarred face, misaligned lip, and weathered hands. He talked like a man who had spent his days sipping wine and listening to fine music, but he looked like someone who had repeatedly had his bones broken—and likely returned the favor many times over.

 

Quote

OK, accepting the premise that he is an Aimian for the sake of argument I cannot see why you conclude from these clues that he is a rogue Aimian. It makes a ton of sense for the Sleepless to want an agent in the Ghostbloods.

You are certainly entitled to think so. Personally i think he would be the rogue sleepless. And i think the ghostbloods know he is a sleepless.

Quote

Though with Mraize, if he is a worldhopper, there is an obvious issue with that. Is he really so "small" that he can get away with his impersonated body and a few trunks?

Could you explain this part? Im honestly confused. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+Oltux72 he/him]

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Words of radiance page 494

Mraize set down his empty cup of wine, and she saw that his right hand was scarred, the fingers crooked, as if they had been broken and badly reset.

OK, there may be something. But these clues would match any Sleepless.

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

You are certainly entitled to think so. Personally i think he would be the rogue sleepless. And i think the ghostbloods know he is a sleepless.

Yet, the Ghostbloods knowing what their member is would not be an issue as long as they didn't know the core mission of the Sleepless.

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Could you explain this part? Im honestly confused. 

The parts of a Sleepless have to be within a certain distance. I doubt that a few light years is close enough. Unless he took all his horedelings along, his mind would rip apart when worldhopping.

[Pathfinder]

16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

OK, there may be something. But these clues would match any Sleepless.

Thanks. I found some other ones, some of which are loose. Im going to first finish searching across all the books before i post more quotes so they will be in one place

16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yet, the Ghostbloods knowing what their member is would not be an issue as long as they didn't know the core mission of the Sleepless.

Honestly if you don't think he is the rogue one, then no sweat off my back. As i said, it just came off logically to me based on how it was presented but i don't have anything (or at least not yet) that screams he has to be the rogue one. Frankly my focus is more on seeing if there are any more signs or hints in his description to support that he is a sleepless. He could be any sleepless for all i care at this point in time. So personally i think he is the rogue, but sure he could be any of them for all we know.

16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The parts of a Sleepless have to be within a certain distance. I doubt that a few light years is close enough. Unless he took all his horedelings along, his mind would rip apart when worldhopping.

Sure. Not sure when i ever said or hinted that he went worldhopping without his "full self". Not sure where we were disagreeing or what this point was meant to prove? Just trying to understand. 

[Subvisual Haze]

On 11/23/2020 at 11:43 AM, Pathfinder said:

Ok, so here is the supporting observations that led me to come to this conclusion 

1. Wit revealed that there is a siah aimian among the ghostbloods

Dawnshard spoilers

  Hide contents

 

2. The siah aimians mentioned that there is one that has gone rogue

3. The siah aimian mentions that he has trouble imitating people and he is better than most which explains why even when disguised, mraize still comes off like mraize

4. The siah aimians take training from rysn who is "younger" to learn. So even if could be older than his babsk, he would still seek to learn from her and would explain constantly talking as a hunter from iyatle. He would feel that is how a human acts based on her.

5. The siah amian uses tattoos and scars to hide the seams between his cremlings as it is difficult to perfectly mimic a human. Everyone comments on how odd mraizes scars are and why doesn't he try to disguise them to better fit in. The reality he is using them to disguise him, but not in the way anyone expected.

 

 

I think that's everything off the top of my head.

great theory!  The Siah Aimians are the blue bodymodding humanoids though, you probably mean to say Dysian/Sleepless Aimians

[Serack he/him]

Excellent theory.  I don't think we should take it as a certainty, but I like it a lot.  I'll add to it that the according to Dawnshard the Dysian/Sleeples Aimians as a race did not originate on Roshar, and thus are already world hoppers in way.  

 

I pulled the relevant passages from Edgedancer for comparison's sake.

Quote

She could see the lines crisscrossing his skin where the cremlings had fit themselves together, but they were nearly lost in the wrinkles of an aged body.

 

[snip]a page or 2 in-between these passages[/snip]

 

“I like this place,” he explained. “Where else would I have the excuse to cover my entire body? I’ve spent thousands of years breeding my hordelings, and still I can’t make them fit together quite right. I can pass for human almost as well as a Siah can these days, I’d hazard, but anyone who looks closely finds something off. It’s rather frustrating.”

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Serack

[Chalke219]

Great theory! 

I can't think of anything that specifically goes against it and the quotes youve found add a lot of weight for me! 

 

[Subvisual Haze]

The second time Shallan meets Mraize, the scene opens with him using the blowgun to paralyze a cremling.  Obviously foreshadowing the existance of Sleepless, but might also be foreshadowing his own nature.

Also, might be a coincidence, but in Lift's chapter:

Quote

“Mistress,” Wyndle said, “chickens are not intelligent. Talking to one would make me question your intelligence, if I hadn’t seen you talk to cremlings sometimes.”

“Never can tell if one of those is reporting back to someone or not,” she muttered, then climbed down and picked up the chicken.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 564). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

This shortly before Lyft encounters Mraize.  Could certainly be a coincidence, but also could be the book jogging your memory about the Sleepless at an important moment.

[Pathfinder]

9 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

great theory!  The Siah Aimians are the blue bodymodding humanoids though, you probably mean to say Dysian/Sleepless Aimians

Thank you! Ack, than you for the correction. I mixed them up in my head when I was typing it. 

8 hours ago, Serack said:

Excellent theory.  I don't think we should take it as a certainty, but I like it a lot.  I'll add to it that the according to Dawnshard the Dysian/Sleeples Aimians as a race did not originate on Roshar, and thus are already world hoppers in way.  

Yeah right now the whole theory is pretty loose and just going on tidbits here and there but would be really cool if I am right. True they did not originate on Roshar, but the later generations that split off from the first were "technically" born on Roshar, which could be why Mraize was called "Thaylen" by Peter, and why he calls Iyatil "babsk"

 

I have included some more quotes I thought were noteworthy, though they are mostly pretty open to interpretation (could just be exactly what it says and mean nothing more), but figured couldn't hurt to jot them down

 

 

Words of Radiance page 629 (Shallan specifically makes herself older, yet Mraize still refers to her as "child". Could be because he is an aimian who is hundreds of years old. Or admittedly could be an old human worldhopper in general that extended his life some other way, or it could just be the way Mraize talks.)

 

"Well?" Mraize asked, glancing at her "Come sit down, child. You did this yourself?"

"I did" Shallan said, shoving down her emotions. Had Mraize just called her "child"? She'd intentionally made this version of her look older, with a more angular face. What did she need to do? Start adding grey hairs to her head?

 

 

Words of Radiance page 758 (Iyatil is secretive of what Mraize is a student of. I think Iyatil is his teacher in how to pass as a human or interact, like how the official story with Rysn is she is teaching the Sleepless. Though she could be referring to the Ghostbloods)

 

"My master?" Iyatil asked

"Mraize"

The woman laughed. "You mistake. He is not my master. He is my student."

"In what?" Shallan asked

Iyatil stared at her with a level gaze and gave no reply.

 

 

Words of Radiance page 769 (Iyatil mentions it is hard to interest Mraize with all he has seen. It could be because he is an aimian that has been around a very long time, or could mean he is just a long lived worldhopper in general)

 

"Your clever drawings fascinate Mraize, another near-impossible task, considering all that he has seen."

 

 

Words of Radiance page 1055 (another description of Mraize. Could be another indication of the disjointed visage hinting at the cremlings that make up his body not lining up perfectly. We know most sleepless have trouble truly imitating people, and that even the one most bred for blending in needed to use the tattoos to hide his nature. Or it could just be that Mraize is a vicious man that has many scars)

 

"He turned toward her, twisted and scarred, yet somehow refined in his gentleman's clothing"

 

 

Words of Radiance page 1056 (I think this may be a hint that Mraize was among the soldiers in cremling form, and was literally carried to Urithiru. Or it could be he infiltrated some highprince's army. Personally I think the imagery of multiple Mraize cremlings being carted around is a fun thought. 

 

"Of course Mraize would have found his way here - he'd likely been among the armies, somewhere. Getting to Urithiru had been one of the Ghostbloods' primary goals. Despite her determination not to help them, she'd transported them - along with the army - right where they wanted to go."

 

 

Oathbringer page 229 (another description of Mraize. Deformed lip. Could be another indication of the cremlings not lining up perfectly. Or could just be a mangled lip from a past wound causing a scar)

 

"Mraize. His face was crisscrossed by scars, one of which deformed his upper lip. Instead of his usual fashionable clothing, today he wore a Sadeas uniform, with a breastplate and a simple skullcap help. He looked exactly like the other soldiers they'd passed, save for that face."

[Karger he/him]

I do have a question.  Why is he "afraid" of Amaram?  Even Nale would have trouble killing a sleepless.  Mraize would have had no trouble overpowering him and kidnapping Taln. 

[Pathfinder]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

I do have a question.  Why is he "afraid" of Amaram?  Even Nale would have trouble killing a sleepless.  Mraize would have had no trouble overpowering him and kidnapping Taln. 

He is afraid of Amaram? I don't recall that scene. I do know Mraize said Amaram's death was "claimed" by someone else already. Is that the scene you are referring to?

[Karger he/him]

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

He is afraid of Amaram? I don't recall that scene. I do know Mraize said Amaram's death was "claimed" by someone else already. Is that the scene you are referring to?

Sorry I should be more spesific.  At the end of WoR Mraize and Amaram both go to capture/rescue Taln.  Mraize attempts to kill Amaram but Taln catches the dart.  Mraize curses and retreats.  A sleepless would not have had any real trouble with the two of them.  Sure a self aware Taln might be a problem but I really don't see a scenario in which Mraize would retreat so easily unless he thought one of the two of them posed an actual threat to him.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Sorry I should be more spesific.  At the end of WoR Mraize and Amaram both go to capture/rescue Taln.  Mraize attempts to kill Amaram but Taln catches the dart.  Mraize curses and retreats.  A sleepless would not have had any real trouble with the two of them.  Sure a self aware Taln might be a problem but I really don't see a scenario in which Mraize would retreat so easily unless he thought one of the two of them posed an actual threat to him.

No problem. I believe that was Iyatil. The individual had a mask on their face. That and it could more be concern about Taln than Amaram. 

 

Words of Radiance page 1061

A small figure there made a puffing sound, a blowgun held to lips beneath a half mask that covered the upper face

The Herald's other hand shot out, quick as an eyeblink, and snatched the dart from the air mere inches form Amaram's face. The Ghostbloods. They weren't trying to kill the Herald. They were trying to kill Amaram.

He cried out, reaching his hand to the side, summoning his Blade. Too slow. The figure looked from him to the Herald, then scuttled away with a soft curse. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

"A small figure there made a puffing sound, a blowgun held to lips beneath a half mask that covered the upper face"

You are correct(Mraize was after all the only GB known for his use of the blow gun but others could have as well).  However...

Quote

CephandriusTW

What would Mraize answer, since he doesn't lie, if someone asked him "Where are you from"?

Brandon Sanderson

Mraize would truthfully say he was born on Roshar.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 7, 2020)

Quote

Khyrindor

So, I was hoping to get a confirmation on Mraize's age?

Brandon Sanderson

I'd probably-- Well, what did I say before?

Khyrindor

Not sure, I was just asking the question.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay good, I didn't think that I had confirmed this. I'm going to RAFO it.

Khyrindor

Like, is he older than a normal person?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO it, yeah. Let's say though, that, though he has been off-world, he himself is a Rosharan.

Khyrindor

A Roshar native?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

You are correct(Mraize was after all the only GB known for his use of the blow gun but others could have as well).  However...

 

So totally respect that it is a stretch to you, and to each your own, but I mentioned this earlier. I will copy paste what I wrote below:

 

"Yeah right now the whole theory is pretty loose and just going on tidbits here and there but would be really cool if I am right. True they did not originate on Roshar, but the later generations that split off from the first were "technically" born on Roshar, which could be why Mraize was called "Thaylen" by Peter, and why he calls Iyatil "babsk""

 

edit: also, seems like regardless what Mraize may or may not be, he is not a natural born Thaylen. He lacks the eyebrows. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Knight of Iron she/they]

On 11/22/2020 at 11:09 PM, Pathfinder said:

So literally just finished rhythm of war and while reading it I had a thought that I had to get down. Don't know if anyone thought of this already but i believe Mraize is the rogue aimian. That is why he has scars on his face. To hide the seams between his cremlings. I'll add my other observations that led me to believe this tomorrow but just wanted to put it down while i had the chance

I am firmly opposed to this theory.

I like Mraize and I am certain he is not Sleepless because I do not feel like he is, and more actually because I do not like the idea that he is. So therefore, your evidence is invalid. My emotions and feelings overwhelm it, this theory will die off and never be spoken of again. I shall make certain of it.

Spoiler

Translation: I wouldn’t like it but I’m very open to this idea, which scares me

 

[shawnhargreaves he/him]

On 11/24/2020 at 6:58 AM, Oltux72 said:

The parts of a Sleepless have to be within a certain distance. I doubt that a few light years is close enough. Unless he took all his horedelings along, his mind would rip apart when worldhopping.

What's your source for this?

I was imagining the parts that make up a Sleepless would be more spiritually than cognitively linked, in which case distance would be irrelevant.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

1 minute ago, shawnhargreaves said:

What's your source for this?

I was imagining the parts that make up a Sleepless would be more spiritually than cognitively linked, in which case distance would be irrelevant.

I think it’s a WoB.