Glyphwards [Discuss]

[Legobinder]

Throughout the series we see characters burn glyphwards for many reasons but mostly because it is a part of Vorin culture, but surprisingly they work. I don't know if they are their own magic system, perhaps they are a part of the Old Magic, but glyphwards do have a power to them.

The most notable example of this is in Lhan's interlude in WoR we see an ardent Pai make several glyphwards comparing Aesudan to the Ten Fools. Then in OB Aesudan is influenced by Ashertmarn, the Heart of Revel, and Aesudan becomes the embodiment of what Pai accused her of.

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Ten large glyphs, written directly on the stone of the floor running up to the dais with the king's Common Throne. The glyphs listed the ten foolish attributes, as represented by the ten fools. Beside each glyph was a written paragraph in women's script explaining how the queen exemplified each of the fools.

Next in chapter 69 of Wok upon hearing that Sadeas has claimed Dalinar was defeated by the Parshendi Navani burns an enormous glyphward of Thath, meaning justice, then what happens a message runner arrives with news of Dalinar's survival.

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She [Navani] bowed her head before the prayer. It was only a single character, but a complex one. Thath. Justice.

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And there they saw a creeping line of men limping back toward the warcamps, led by a mounted man in slate-grey armor.

Again in WoR, chapter 14, another glyphward is burned this one from Navani who burned it as a prayer of safety and glory for Adolin in his shard duels, and guess what happens Adolin is safe throughout all his battles and doesn't die. Especially in his last duel against four shardbearers when Kaladin jumps in to save Adolin.

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Aunt Navani had just finished a glyphward. She stepped away from the pedestal, setting aside her brushpen, and held up the ward for him to see. It was painted in bright red on a white cloth.

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"It says 'safety and glory,'" Navani said.

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Spear in hand, he [Kaladin] grabbed the edge of the wall and flung himself over, dropping to the sands of the arena floor below.

Then twice in RoW Navani burns glyphwards. The first is in the prologue when see burns a glyph for the death of Gavilar after their conversation, and surprisingly Szeth kills him that very night.

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In the end, she had one of the finest glyphwards she'd ever created. It read, simply, Death. Gift. Death. She'd drawn each glyph in the shapes of Gavilar's tower or sword heraldry.

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Navani didn't hear of the assassination that night until had been accomplished.

The next is when Navani is trying to sleep after Raboniel told her that she will create anti-Stormlight she paints glyphs for divine direction she finds the dagger raboniel used to kill her daughter which had a bit of anti-Voidlight left in it. Navani realizes that she can use this to kill Raboniel and escape Urithiru with the Rhythm of War.

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Please, she thought, begging as a ward shriveled, her prayers casting smoke into the air. Please. Tell me what to do. Show me something. Let me know you're there.

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Navani brushed aside ash to find a metal dagger with a diamond affixed to the pommel. 

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For there, glimmering violet-black in the gemstone, was a soft glow. Not completely used up in the previous killing. A small charge of anti-Voidlight.

So it seems that glyphwards do indeed have power to them, I have no idea which shard this corresponds to but it appears to have something to do with the future and asking for a certain outcome to happen. It's just my theory that glyphwards affect the outcome of the future. So what does everyone think of this?

[seriodor]

I think it's either just loose investiture and intent somehow influencing things in the spiritual realm. Or it's a part of whatever magic was around before Adonalsium was shattered. You have to assume this is all part of Adonalsium's plan somehow, considering it could see the future and it allowed itself to be shattered.

[AirsickHighlander]

11 minutes ago, seriodor said:

I think it's either just loose investiture and intent somehow influencing things in the spiritual realm. Or it's a part of whatever magic was around before Adonalsium was shattered. You have to assume this is all part of Adonalsium's plan somehow, considering it could see the future and it allowed itself to be shattered.

I think you might be on to something with the pre-shattering background magic. To me it feels like something akin to Elantris Spoilers:

Spoiler

Aon-dor, symbols describing the desired outcome which then become light, either through magic or physics. Because of Aon-Dor's relationship with the geography of Sel, I'd suggest that glyphwards have a similar connection - although not necessarily to geography. 

I think the best place to look for clues as to why glyphwards work the way that they do is by examining the inter-chapter notes on glyph composition and history that appear in the last few books.

[Legobinder]

39 minutes ago, AirsickHighlander said:

I think the best place to look for clues as to why glyphwards work the way that they do is by examining the inter-chapter notes on glyph composition and history that appear in the last few books.

In the first page of Alethi glyphs from OB Nazh writes:

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This supports the claim that Alethi glyphs were adopted from older scripts likely descended from Dawnchant and might explain the two sets of phonemes used in glyph creation: Standard and Calligraphic.

I suspect that Dawnchant work the same way glyphwards do since Nazh suspects that glyphs descended from Dawnchant. Maybe not anymore but I feel like they worked this way pre-shattering.

There doesn't seem to be anything terribly relevant to this topic in the second page of glyphs from Nazh in RoW but it is interesting to see how the glyph for Roshar can be separated. I wonder if this has any further importance or if it's just nifty.

[AirsickHighlander]

5 minutes ago, Legobinder said:

There doesn't seem to be anything terribly relevant to this topic in the second page of glyphs from Nazh in RoW but it is interesting to see how the glyph for Roshar can be separated. I wonder if this has any further importance or if it's just nifty.

I just went through these again, and the only thing that really hopped out to me is the insistence from the unnamed ardent that the glyphs cannot be broken down. I think the secrecy of the calligrapher's guild may exist to hide that they've cracked the power of glyphs and they are much more than they seem.

[Legobinder]

1 minute ago, AirsickHighlander said:

I just went through these again, and the only thing that really hopped out to me is the insistence from the unnamed ardent that the glyphs cannot be broken down. I think the secrecy of the calligrapher's guild may exist to hide that they've cracked the power of glyphs and they are much more than they seem.

I see that now, my eyes just went over it but I ignored it. I think you are right in this assessment but why would they hide this power? Just to stop people from abusing it or is there something more nefarious that we don't know yet.

[AirsickHighlander]

Just now, Legobinder said:

Just to stop people from abusing it or is there something more nefarious that we don't know yet.

Secretive society on Roshar guarding forgotten magicks? If they aren't Nefarious they better at least be Inscrutable. 

[teknopathetic]

We know that Odium went to Sel and then Ashyn and then Roshar. It has got me wondering if any Selish magic (or lore) may have travelled with Odium and his followers to the Rosharan system? 

Edited November 23, 2020 by teknopathetic

[AirsickHighlander]

The dawnchant is the original language of the Singers, right? If the glyphs come from the dawnchant, could their power be related to the way that the primitive stoneshapers used their magic naturally? That would contradict teknopathetic's theory, which I also really like, but how would he inject that power into Alethkar's glyph system even if he did copy/corrupt it?

[Subvisual Haze]

In the distant past natives of Roshar probably encountered Elantran travelers making cool magical symbols in the air and culturally appropriated it.

[AndrolGenhald]

On 11/22/2020 at 4:19 PM, Legobinder said:

The most notable example of this is in Lhan's interlude in WoR we see an ardent Pai make several glyphwards comparing Aesudan to the Ten Fools. Then in OB Aesudan is influenced by Ashertmarn, the Heart of Revel, and Aesudan becomes the embodiment of what Pai accused her of.

You have it backwards, Aesudan was already being influenced by the unmade, and Pai merely described what Aesudan had already become.

 

On 11/22/2020 at 4:19 PM, Legobinder said:

Next in chapter 69 of Wok upon hearing that Sadeas has claimed Dalinar was defeated by the Parshendi Navani burns an enormous glyphward of Thath, meaning justice, then what happens a message runner arrives with news of Dalinar's survival.

There is clearly no causal relation here as they had already survived and were nearly back to the warcamps. A religious alethi who regularly burns glyphwards hears something awful that they don't want to accept, what do you think they are they going to do? It's a great scene, but it's just that, a dramatic scene, there's nothing mystical going on here.

 

On 11/22/2020 at 4:19 PM, Legobinder said:

Then twice in RoW Navani burns glyphwards. The first is in the prologue when see burns a glyph for the death of Gavilar after their conversation, and surprisingly Szeth kills him that very night.

Yes, but it wasn't exactly surprising was it? To them at the time maybe, but with all we know now there are very rational explanations that don't involve any glyphward mumbo jumbo. We even have Klade "stumbling upon" Szeth explained now as Ulim leading him after being let go by Nale.

 

On 11/22/2020 at 4:19 PM, Legobinder said:

The next is when Navani is trying to sleep after Raboniel told her that she will create anti-Stormlight she paints glyphs for divine direction she finds the dagger raboniel used to kill her daughter which had a bit of anti-Voidlight left in it. Navani realizes that she can use this to kill Raboniel and escape Urithiru with the Rhythm of War.

This is the best example as it seems much more like coincidence than any of the others, but it's still just coincidence. She'd probably have found the dagger anyway.

 

I see a lot of confirmation/selection bias here. Yes, you could conclude that glyphwards work and are answered with divine intervention (or not as the case may be), but none of the uses of glyphwards have truly mystical outcomes, there's no solid evidence, and I'm extremely skeptical they have any true power. It's just the Alethi form of prayer. People who are religious tend to burn glyphwards, so when things go the way they want they can attribute it to their prayer being answered. When things don't go the way they want they either forget about it, or explain it away (not worthy, not meant to be, etc).

Edited November 24, 2020 by AndrolGenhald

[seriodor]

I feel like there's definitely something here. Aside from all the Navani stuff, there's the way the glyphs for Koravellium Avast, Tanavast, and Rayse make Roshar. I've been trying to look through the various glyphs and see if any of the rest of them inspire anything when transposed or combined and haven't seen anything. I feel like someone better with visual stuff would probably find something though.

[LiftIRL]

2 hours ago, seriodor said:

I feel like there's definitely something here. Aside from all the Navani stuff, there's the way the glyphs for Koravellium Avast, Tanavast, and Rayse make Roshar. I've been trying to look through the various glyphs and see if any of the rest of them inspire anything when transposed or combined and haven't seen anything. I feel like someone better with visual stuff would probably find something though.

but this is a lingusitic reveal. there are many glyphs that are not religious- from the signs on stores, maps or magazines for men to read, to the shash-nahn on kaladin's head. the fact that construction of the language shows shardic awerness is nice, but it can't be used as evidence the practice of burning glyphs has powers.  If i research old celtic, for instance, and find the etymological development of their word for Light shows suprising connection to modren concepts in theoretical physics, it doesn't make stonehenge a particle accelarator.

[seriodor]

5 minutes ago, LiftIRL said:

but this is a lingusitic reveal. there are many glyphs that are not religious- from the signs on stores, maps or magazines for men to read, to the shash-nahn on kaladin's head. the fact that construction of the language shows shardic awerness is nice, but it can't be used as evidence the practice of burning glyphs has powers.  If i research old celtic, for instance, and find the etymological development of their word for Light shows suprising connection to modren concepts in theoretical physics, it doesn't make stonehenge a particle accelarator.

I was thinking more like the calligraphic versions of the older glyphs. Like the glyphs for the Radiant orders, or the glyphs of the Heralds. They're different from the standard Alethi glyphs that you'd see on store fronts. Also the glyphs are supposed to be descended from the Dawnchant, which is a singer language. My thought process is something like would the Dawnchant transcription of the name Odium have the tone represented in some way? If you wrote down a representation of Odium's tone, while Intending to write that, would it be able to channel investiture in some way? Is it possible that trait has somehow carried on to the glyphs that humans made from the Dawnchant?